Are men dumb and women evil?

[Wetzelbill]

Men are dumb and women are evil seems to be the basis of film noir. In every film you have some bumbling rube who appears to be leading himself into some black widow's web.

Does this parallel real life? I doubt it, but maybe in some instances.

There seems to be some sort of prevailing mythology on this stemming all the way back to Adam and Eve. (Eve = Evil? way too similar to ignore) From the time wicked Eve, whose greed doomed mankind, convinced that nitwit Adam to eat an apple, these caricatures have been perpetuated.

Maybe vilification is just another way to oppress women? Maybe male stupidity is just a way to skirt the consequences of man's sins? I don't know. I'm interested in these concepts though.

So are men dumb and women evil?

The mere fact that I even posted this sort of proves the first one, I guess.

Thoughts, anyone?

[Shell Beau]

1. Some men are dumb and some women are evil

and vice versa. But generalizations are just that.

[Misunderestimator]

2. You nailed it in your fourth paragraph. It's about blaming women.

[Wetzelbill]

13. I'd say so...

not just blaming women, but another layer to that is finding a way to not accept any responsibility for a male's own actions. As in, "Well, I screwed up, but that she-devil tricked me into it." etc, etc.

Then again, I am preaching to the choir, aren't I? :)

[dhinojosa]

3. Uhm....Wha?

:hi:

[KitchenWitch]

4. In other mythos - Pandora and her box

I think that theme is present in most systems of mythology...I just think the genders misunderstand each other.

[Wetzelbill]

14. that's a good example

[Dogmudgeon]

5. It plays to deep cultural agony

It's symbolic of the male fear of loss of control and the female fear of being "bad".

Of course, most men like to lose control every so often (and if some macho means isn't available, beer will do), and it's been years since I've met a girl or woman who didn't lay claim to being "bad" on occasion.

--p!

[Wetzelbill]

23. that's the essence of a male-centric

society. Control. And, power, which is essentially the same thing.

[knowbody0]

6. my take:

the creator made men slaves to form. he did not do this to women. we do not play on even ground.

[Wetzelbill]

21. sometimes

you have to whip some ass, huh? :)

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

7. Well, Bush embodies both

So if he's evil (which he is), he is showing his "feminine" side on a daily basis.

Never miss a chance to bash him if I can help it.

[jobycom]

11. That's the spirit!!

:rofl:

[Wetzelbill]

12. your logic is astounding...

One cannot help but bow down to your dedication. I feel unworthy to be in your glowing presence. :)

[pitohui]

8. not quite but here's a theory

some believe the average woman is more intelligent than the average man

theory goes this is because the woman had to evolve more smarts to protect herself, stay alive through pregnancy, and raise her her kiddies, while the man only really needed enough smarts to stick his wingwang in the right spot, if he died two seconds later, who cares, his job here is done

an alternate theory is women need more smarts to survive because they do not have as many conventional options, so had to outwit men to be able to get both sex they wanted and the security they wanted

maybe not so true as in days of old but genetic heritage remains

in this case, the sitcom or film noir portrayal of man = buffoon, woman = cunning or evil might have a tiny note of truth to it

***not saying i myself uphold these theories***

[Wetzelbill]

15. thus the notion of a woman "trapping" a man

or wrapping one around her finger. As if all men are just oblivious to that point of malleability.

Well, I might be. :)

Nice use of the term wingwang. If I could give out bonus points I would. :evilgrin:

[demnan]

9. No

women are dumb and men are evil. Who does most of the killing? Who does most of the cleaning? 'nuff said.

[In_The_Wind]

10. to answer your questions Bill ~

men aren't dumb

women aren't evil

[Wetzelbill]

25. I prefer to think that I am

oblivious myself. :)

[jobycom]

16. It is a persistent myth, isn't it? Christianity, Islam, Rome, Greece, all

have versions of the same archetype. Think Media, Salome. Though in each of those cases, there are also examples of manipulative women who fail because men are either too smart or too just. Pharoah's wife cannot defeat Joseph, for example, in the Christian or Islamic versions. Moses likewise cannot be tricked by Pharoah's wife.

I think the big constant in this myth is the manipulative woman. She fails when a man is just, she succeeds when a man is greedy or lustful and is willing to compromise himself. Thus, the woman is a temptress, and the man's success or failure is based on his morality, not his intelligence.

This fits with woman's role in literature through most of our history, and in much of today's literature (including movies). The woman is not a character, she is a device to motivate the man, either through love, lust, greed, goodness, badness, whatever. The woman may be pure and innocent, childlike and flighty, sexy and manipulative, or whatever, but her primary goal is to move the male characters towards good or evil, or to satisfy the male character in some way.

I would say this archetype comes from two factors: One, women being kept out of power through much of history, and two, men being the ones who write all this literature and all these myths. Women's main access to power has often been through men, and thus men would see them as either silent, or manipulative to get something the man doesn't want to give them.

Since men are the ones writing the stories, and since often in history men and women have lived in separate realms that only intersected through romance, sex, or household duties, men's knowledge of them would be limited to these realms. Therefore, women were there to fall in love, have sex, clean house. When they wanted more, they often had to manipulate men to get it. Thus, men create these stories portraying women these ways.

Of course, the whole temptress thing is a way of excusing men for their lusts and condemning women for theirs. Men either give in to the woman because of weakness, or resist women because of strength. Thus, women are abstract temptations.

Hollywood still does this. Film Noir and basic Femme Fatale films (except, interestingly, the movie called Femme Fatale) are written mostly through the man's perspective. The woman is mysterious, unknowable--just as she always has been in literature. Fortunately, even Hollywood is moving beyond those genres now. Somewhat.

That's a quick but overly-wordy summary of my ideas. I could go on, but everyone else stopped reading long ago, so I'll stop now.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

18. My dear jobycom....Anytime you want to expound on these ideas....

I will drop what I'm doing, and come over to listen...

This is one very skillfully put together little essay....

You leave me wanting more...of your essay, my dear!

A great deal of truth resides here......

:hug: :loveya:

[Wetzelbill]

19. no way I found it engaging

A good thoughtful response.


Yeah, I think the mystery of these portrayals is often a sign of ignorance. The reason a so-called Femme Fatale is a mystery is because men often are ignorant about women in the first place. That's why we simplify them into abstract temptations Or, one reason why anyway.

[jobycom]

27. One reason is right

And i think you hit on another reason in your OP. Simple avoidance of guilt. If woman is just so darned tempting and manipulative, then the man isn't as responsible for the evil he does under her control. That's the other side of film noir-- the man isn't just stupid, he's corrupt. He's trying to con someone, too. The woman is his motivation, he says, but if he weren't corrupt in the first place, nothing would happen.

[Wetzelbill]

29. yes, at the heart of it

is corruption. So how does he justify that corruption to himself and the audience? It's the woman! Nice way to avoid that guilt. You are spot on.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

17. Well, this thread is very interesting...I'm a woman, and as far as

I know, I'm not evil...and the men I love aren't dumb...far from it..


:popcorn:

[Wetzelbill]

20. same here

except vice versa. I am a not totally dumb male, and the women I love are not evil.

I like threads on topics like this. I am infinitely curious about gender, race and poverty issues. I think they all correlate with each other. The oppression side of it for one thing. Such as the opression of a woman, the even bigger impression of a woman in the workforce and even more so of a minority woman in the workforce. They all are related. In some way, shape of form.

[johnnie]

22. No

Don't watch these movies or read these kind of books. Although I don't watch as many movies as most people, I don't think it is "every" movie that portrays what you are saying in your thread.
Then again, I don't sit around watching movies all day, so I probably am wrong here.

[Wetzelbill]

24. no, it's not every movie....

but it is predominant in Film Noir.

[johnnie]

26. Ah

Sorry about that. I see.

[Wetzelbill]

28. you should check out Hitchcock's films

North By Northwest is a great example. Watch it with this concept in mind. You'll see Cary Grant as an absolute fool and Eva Marie Saint as a mysterious woman who may or may not be a manipulative villain. It's fascinating to watch it play out.

[johnnie]

30. I was just thinking the other day

I can't remember a sit-com on television in recent times where the men weren't complete idiots and all the women were the smart ones.