Do car dealerships purposely try to screw women???

[LostinVA]

Am sooooo mad. Went into the local Honda place yesterday, ready to walk out with a Civic Hybrid -- I was coming to buy. First, they tried to give me $700 for a trade-in, when the Kelly BB value was $3,600 for the condition it was in... and that was claiming it was Fair, when it's Good. They tried to tell me it had a bunch of stuff wrong with it. LIARS!!! I had a full tune-up three months ago, and a mechanic friend checked it out for me. Again: LIARS!!!!

Then, they played the "monthly payment game" even AFTER I told them I was getting the loan through my bank, and gave me this number... refused to tell me what I was actually paying. Then, tried the good cop/bad cop route, AND, when I said I had to discuss it with someone at home before I bought (said so I could get out of there), was very sneeringly told to stand up for myself.

There's more, but this is the gist of it. I'm 40 years old, not some 18-year-old who may unfortunately not know better. What, do I have to take my Daddy in with me? Geez.

I just woke a letter and faxed it to them, telling them this, and that I'm going to the Honda place in the next town over AND to the local VW place (TDI Golf).

Just venting! Other women weigh in!

[Clintmax]

1. I'm not a woman, but good for you for standing up!

I hate new car dealers! They are the scum of the earth!

[MrScorpio]

2. Yes, It's a proven fact

Car tips for the ladies:

Know your facts before you walk in the door

And don't let them give you any shit

Never hesitate to get up and walk out the the door, if you detect a whiff of bullshit.

Mess with you? Fuck 'em and forget 'em.

[LostinVA]

8. That's exactly what I did,

So, at least they didn't rook me!

[MalibuChloe]

57. Luckily I know how not to be a "lady"

When I bought my car, they "couldn't" meet my price, so I gave them my number and told them to call me when they could meet it, but that I might have already bought elsewhere by then.

By the time I got back to the office, they had miraculously found a way to meet my price.

I love my car. :D

[LostinVA]

63. OOOH! I must try that!

I'm so proud of you...

[Shoeempress]

3. There are good car dealers and if they treat you like a moran, do

exactly what you did, leave. I've got a great dealership, now. But have been treated like a weak minded child by some dealerships. I do not patronize them again.

[amber dog democrat]

4. No. They're equal opporunity weasels

The aim is bury the buyer in debt as deep as they can. There was a different script for you, I suppose, but most of my experiences from dealers have been unsettling to bad.

[demnan]

5. I'm going to buy my next car from a woman-owned dealership

if I can. I think the more women get involved in owning businesses like this the better it will be for the rest of us.

[NewJeffCT]

6. To be honest, they'll try to screw anybody

But, most of them think women are easier to take advantage of because of the stereotype that they generally know less about cars than men.

I remember going into an Acura dealership a few years after I got out of college. I was pretty shy and usually try to avoid arguments whenever I can... but, I brought in their newspaper ad that said "no reasonable offer refused" and the offer in the newspaper was like 1.9% financing on the Acura Integra base model. So, I asked them if I could get the top of the line model for the same 1.9% financing... I think it threw them for a loop, and the guy and his manager start working the calculator and come back to me and say with normal financing, the difference in payments between 1.9% and x.9% is only this much.

So, i responded to them, "well, if it's only that much, it must be a reasonable amount, so I can get the 1.9% financing then..."

The manager then starts hemming & hawing and trying to point out that it was only for the base model, blah blah blah.

Anyhow, I didn't want to play around, as there were several other Acura dealers within driving distance and I just left.

[mark11727]

11. The missus bought a 2005 Liberty in January...

She knows more about cars than I ever will, and really did her homework as far as options and equipment --- and although she really, really wanted that car (a very specific model in the lot), we were fully prepared to walk out.

She (not I) negotiated a very generous extended service contract out of them (if every point becomes a potential deal-breaker, the closer you are to closing, the more they'll "give" you just to get your signature).

On top of everything else, she paid for the car IN FULL so she could get a TITLE with her name on it it (some complicated money-juggling there, we still have to pay the car off, but as far as Jeep's concerned, we own it).

Love that gal.

[NewJeffCT]

12. it's always best to buy

when you don't HAVE to buy a new car... that gives you the power to walk out.

[LostinVA]

14. And I don't have to

I just want something greener and with better mileage.

[mark11727]

18. Well, her last new car was a 1988 Escort --- it still ran OK, but

it was getting old fast, and she wanted to get rid of it before things started getting expensive.

It still runs, so we don't want to junk it, but it's too old to donate (we tried), and selling may not be worth it.

[NewJeffCT]

21. well, getting 18 years out of a car

is a great job. It's buying a new car every few years is where you get screwed the most, moneywise.

[LostinVA]

13. My Mom did the same thing recently

And when the salesman kept LOOKING at my Dad for approval (!), they left and bought it at a different dealership an hour away.

[phaseolus]

7. Yes. Yes, they do.

Service departments, too -- our van's "Check Engine" light used to go on sporadically. The idiot service people did their usual 'plug in the code reader, read the code, and do what it says' thing and replaced an oxygen sensor which didn't stop the problem. Their suggested next step?? An engine replacement ... just to turn the damn light off, without even doing a compression test. :mad:

Eventually the problem went away on its own, once in a while showing up for a day or two. My guess is it was a wiring problem...

The lesson here is everyone, Male or Female, needs to avoid Andrew Chevrolet in Glendale WI. They're idiots and probably crooks too.

[Love Bug]

59. I recall the time on Car Talk (car advice show on NPR)

where someone had persistant trouble with the "check engine" light. After the Tappet Brothers had determined the car's owner had done everything possible regarding this problem, here was their advice: Take a small piece of electrical tape and cover the "check engine" light! Voila! Problem fixed!

[Darth_Kitten]

9. Good thing you didn't buy from them!!

What morons. :eyes:

I get the same kind of treatment in electronic stores. Like maybe I would like some service, or some questions answered about some products, but no, they walk around me and help others.
What? My money isn't good enough for them?

[LostinVA]

15. That's why I will NEVER buy anything else from Circuit City

Had three guys in the TV section all chatting, ignoring me, then perked up and ran up to a guy who came in and said, "I'm just killing time." I asked for the General Manager, showed him my debit card, said I came in to buy a nice new TV, walked out and went to Best Buy. mI emailed Corporate about it, and they couldn't have cared less....

[Darth_Kitten]

26. Their loss.

I remember once when I was much younger going in to buy a VCR at this one place. Nitwit guy was one the phone, just a minute he kept saying.

Stupid thing was I did buy a vcr there (I was desperate)

But, never again. My money is too precious. :(

[LeftyMom]

73. That sucks

I used to work there, and I used to have a problem with male customers who would treat me like I didn't now shit (I was a manager and responsible for product training) but would hang on every word of some seventeen year old holiday temp just because he was a he.

[LostinVA]

74. I totally believe you

I've seen people do that to my partner, who is a computer whiz. She'll tell someone how to fix there computer,a nd they'll look at her for a second then say something like, "Well, I'll call my brother-in-law. He's an English teacher, but he uses his computer alot." Crazy...

[Swede]

100. Good for you.

nt

[Wcross]

95. Same here and I am a guy.

I may be big and smelly but I have cash in my pocket!

It happens all the time to me. (even after I shower!)

[lukasahero]

10. Yes some do. Here's an Edmunds report on their experience

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/45991/article.html

"Do Dealerships Treat Women Differently?"

"Sure, many people find it stressful to buy a car, but even women who have taken leadership roles in their professional, personal and civic duties admit that they are uncomfortable going into a dealership and negotiating the purchase of a car without the help of a friend or relative. Maybe this is due to the fact that women are consistently quoted higher prices than men, as economists Ian Ayres and Peter Siegelman found in their study of 200 Chicago car dealerships. Or, maybe it's because women buyers are put off by salesmen who patronize them by pointing out how the color of the car matches their eyes rather than whether the car gets good gas mileage."

[LostinVA]

22. Very interesting article n/t

[LynneSin]

16. I take serious offense to this thread - rant from an ex-car saleswoman

Guess what - I sold cars for over 2 years! Right after I lost my first job out of college thanks to the first Bush recession, I took a job selling cars - Dodge, Suburu & Suzukis.

Oh, it's so easy to rant about how unfair we car-salespeople are but have you ever considered what we have gone through day in and day out even though we try our hardest to be honest salespeople because you can't pull the crap that salespeople from yesteryears use to get away with.

I'd see maybe 10 potential customers a day - maybe! And my salary is based on trying to see hopefully 1 of those people a car or else I'm not making any money. I dealt with all sorts of crazies every time and basically what I discovered was this - people either knew nothing or they knew way too much and were overutilizing what they knew.

There's something called Retail vs. Wholesale - Retail is the price you see on the sticker and wholesale is what the dealership paid to put that car on the lot. Pretty much anyone with an internet connection or a few bucks in a bookstore can find out what the wholesale cost is for any car out there and they'll use that wholesale information to negotiate the price. Now personally, when I had someone who came in with the wholesale cost of the car I would ask them this "How much over that price would you be willing to pay for the car?" and most of the time people felt that even as little as $50-$500 would be what they would pay and then we would write up the deal.

But the problem is now you'r buying our car wholesale but yet you expect us to pay retail for your car? See even your (mine, everyone's) used car has a wholesale/retail price. Wholesale is what the car is really worth but retail is the price you could put on the car and sell it in the paper or parked along your house. Nobody would sell their car wholesale because if your car was wholesalable at $1000 and I tried to sell it at that you know the buyer would negotitiate - so I put the retail price on it.

Now I could spend all day telling you of the nightmare stories of how I've been spit on, cursed at and called every foul name in the book from people who basically did not understand the system and refused to learn about it. Our ancestors in car retail sales have give current salesfolks a bad name, but I can assure you that any reputable dealership isn't going to fuck around with 50% of the population and try to screw you over.

Now I don't know all the "ins&out" of your deal. I do know that Hybrids are of a premium right now and are probably harder to negotiate since the demand is high on them. Heck I wouldn't be suprised they actually mark up the car an additional price because of their popularity. I also have not seen your car nor do I know anything about it, but dealerships have to consider this with used cars: How much would it cost to fix up that car and resell it on their used car lot OR how much would it cost to resell the car to one of those used car lots that deal with bad credit folks. (Nice cars go on the lot and crappy cars get sold to the Used Car dealers).

If you have any questions just ask. My complaint about sales people is when they're too dumbass to know how easy a deal is. I ended up with a Toyota because the salesperson as the VW lot didn't know how to take someone who came in with $10k to spend and put them into a $15k car (and believe me that's easy!). The Toyota dealership did (well it was a $13k car) and we all lived happily ever after

[sendero]

20. Hehe...

... after spending 20 years programming computers, due to a lousy job market and a desire to do something VERY different, I went into the used car business.


I've been doing it about a year, and already the scales are off my eyes.

First off, most people think all car dealers are as trustworthy as our president. Well, that just isn't true. I've worked with several dealers (mentoring, learning) and yes some will bend the rules a bit but most of them are basically honest. The first guy I worked with told me "never sell someone a bad car, it just isn't worth it. If there is something wrong with it, get it fixed".

Of course, I didn't need anyone to tell me that, but it was nice to hear.

My main mentor has taught me a lot. But I noticed early on that he is often rude with customers (pre sale). One time I asked him, "why do you treat customers that way?" - he told me, "just wait and see".

Well, I've waited and I see. For every shady car dealer there must be 10 shady customers. People will lie right to your face like you are some kind of idiot. They will weave fantastic stories, and try to sell you on crazy deals. They will look at a $3000 car and bitch about a scratch in the paint. They will walk in, with abysmal credit and expect you to sell them a $10K Honda for $500 down. I wouldn't sell a $10K car for $500 down if you had a score of 750.

I still treat folks courteously, but once they start will the bullshit my mood changes. I no longer put on the happy act with people who are wasting my time.

[LynneSin]

25. My favorite is the over shopper

I'm going to hit every X Dealership in the tri-state area so just give me your lowest price on this car and if it's the best price I'll come back and buy it.

So I told the guy whatever the lowest price was on the same exact model with the same exact features, etc - I'll beat his lowest price by $10.

The guy comes back to me "But I need a price"

And I repeated what I said - as long as it's the same model of car with identical packages - whatever their price is I'll beat it by $10. But if you like you can spend $40 in gas, and countless days driving all over the tri-state area finding the nirvana of the lowest price or I'll bring you out the car invoice and we'll negotiate your best price from there.

He drove away that night in a new Dodge

[kodi]

96. i am one of those, but did my homework over the Net

I walked into several chyrsler/dodge dealers in the atlanta area and told them straight up with printed documents what i had found. i told them what i was looking for, that i had the time to see the other 4 dealers within a 50 mile radius. and have them to explain to me why my expectation on a price was inaccurate.

i checked out the dodge caravan and grand caravans.

the caravans, with a 3.2L was priced at "how to buy a car.com at $19,000. tax, etcetera not included.

although i would have bought a caravan, i wanted the grand caravan after i saw them with the fold under seats, and a bigger engine. i talked on the phone to several salesmen before i visited them but only about the caravans and found that the dodge dealers were telling customers that the stow and go seat feature of the grand caravans added approx. $3,500 to the cost and a bigger engine was approx, another $1,500.

so, with that, $19,000 + $3,500 + $1,500 = $24,000 is what i should be able to purchase at.

however, knowing that they would likely get their end of the year kick-back of $1,000 - $1,500 per car from corporate, i expected to walk out at a price of $23,000 - $23,250 ex taxes.

I visited all 5 dealers in the area and checked out the available grand caravans for the color i wanted, only one had the color i wanted, then i began to negotiate.

I told them, i would pay $23,250, explaining why i had arrived at the price i was offering with the internet documents i had downloaded and printed out and the quotes on the stow and go and engine upgrades. and i got the price i wanted, even though the car i wanted was listed at $29,000. after we agreed on the price the sales manager wanted to know who taught me how to buy a car. we went into his office and i showed him the web sites i went to and we did exactly on-line what i had done the previous week in determining the best price i could expect. he laughed and said me with a smile "dammit! don't go telling other people about these sites!"

even though i had the cash to buy it outright, i had to finance to get the price i wanted. but that was okay. pay a car loan on time for 12 consecutive months and it improves your credit rating apprecably. i will write a check after 12 months for the rest and the interest for the year of financing is only about $750....so i will pay in total $24,000 which is what i expected in the first place.

actually i am sure that i could have hard-nosed the dealer and gotten down another $500-1,000 but i understand, as Lynn points out that these sales reps have to make a living too....and i know that they made $3,000 in profit on the sale which at about 14-15% is not too bad.

[LostinVA]

29. I've worked sales and retail management before

So I understand how pricing works, and I understand that everyone has to meet somewhere between consumer satisfaction and corporate profit. But, when I managed a chain bookstore, I wouldn't give person #1 a book for $20.00, and the next person the same book for $27.95. I think alot of us know it's a job, and sales can be hard. It's just that the deck is stacked against certain people by certain salespeople. I was treated very disrespectfully last night. I've bought new cars before and haven't had that experience.

That's all.

[sendero]

40. Vote with your feet...

.... that's all you can do.

I've bought exactly one vehicle from a dealer, a new pickup, in my long life.

I looked on the net and the consensus was that a fair price was $400 over invoice.

They said "sure". but when the contract came down, they had tacked on a $400 "marketing fee". I told them "I'm not paying that". They said "it's not part of the price, everyone pays it".

I looked the sales manager in the eye and said "take it off or I'm out of here".

He did.

[Kingshakabobo]

51. You hit the nail right on the head though.

Are you saying you make the exact same deal for everyone regardless of the negotiations, volume and product? Of course not.

Unfortunately, the car business is like the old horse trading business. It brings out the worst in people. Both sellers AND BUYERS.
I could fill up this whole thread of stories about how "buyers are liars". Do you know how many times I listened to people bragg about how they passed their previous vehicle off on some poor "sucker" on the street knowing that it was f--ked-up?

I spent 11 years in the business and I honestly can't say I saw discrimination against women. I saw discrimination against not making a profit on everyone we could. BTW, they play thoise games with EVERYONE. You can go to the next dealer but you have a 99% chance of getting the same run-around down the street.

[patcox2]

80. Auto purchase is unique in american retail, because of bargaining.

All over the world, and in this country until recently, people baragined over the price of most things. People on vacation have experienced the strange custom of haggling in foreign open air markets.

But its not a regular part of our life in the US, and people are very very much on the defensive when they walk into a car dealership, precisely because its a strange experience to them.

Thats the primary difference between other retail businesses and the auto business. Of course a bookstore doesn't charge a different price to different people. But every car in america by law does have a Monroney sticker giving the manufacturer's suggested retail, and the only reason, while they bargained over payments with you, that you didn't know the "price" was because you were trying to get a different price from the one you saw in the window. I assume you were trying to get a lower price.

Sounds like your people were obnoxious jerks.

But its amazing, also, how many people leave a dealership after negotiating a tremendous deal, yet thet are convinced they were ripped off and they are bitter and angry. I think its the psychological effect of bargaining being an unfamiliar thing to most people, its stressful and unpleasant. Its like operant conditioning, you feel unpleasant emotions and undergo stress in the dealership, you associate the dealership with badness, you become convinced you were ripped off.

Here is one piece of advice; look for a smaller, family owned car dealership. They tend to be much more pleasant to deal with. The big "highway shops" tend to be the way you described.

If you know what you want and how much you want to spend, be prepared to say exactly that. However, you need to know the details, you have to know exactly what equipment package you want and excatly what price you will pay.

They will want to charge you more if you pay cash or finance it yourself. You should be aware that the lenders pay them a commission for arranging a loan, and in many cases, thats their only profit on a deal. They might have hung tight on your deal because they would just as soon sell it to someone who finances it through them so they could get that profit, too.

Dealer financing is not a rip-off. The loans a dealer can get you are almost always at a lower rate than any bank or credit union will offer you.

Anyway, if you know what you want, you know what its worth, and say "I will pay you this much for that car" that should get their eyes open.

I work in the automotive business too, in regulatory compliance, I advise auto dealers on how to comply with the law, particularly consumer fraud laws. I see these situations, in the form of lawsuits daily.

[LTR]

98. Bravo, Lynne, bravo!

I am currently a car salesman, and I was just about to post almost exactly the points you just did. You took the words right out of my keyboard!

First off, Kelly Blue Book is relatively worthless. No car dealership uses it. It is way too outdated and inaccurate. Rather, the NADA black book and often consensuses of wholesalers are used. Why should a dealership be forced to overpay for a crappy worthless car that they can't get rid of? Who's trying to scam who here?

Dealerships pay WHOLESALE value for cars, just like any business. No business I've ever heard of buys inventory for retail, then sells for retail. That's absurd! What we do is pay a wholesale rate that everyone else is paying, and if it's intended for resale on the lot (for example), we have to put it through a safety inspection, which the service department charges the sales department, fix any damage, pay the porters to clean it, do the paperwork, advertise it, and risk depreciation hits on it if it stays on the lot for too long. And we have to pay employees and the light bill too. In other words, don't hold your breath waiting for a dealership to pay you street retail value for your beater.

Oh, and car dealerships do rate using 'fair' condition. Dealerships don't know a thing about your car, and don't know if you change your oil/air filter/spark plugs on a regular basis or not. And anything as old as the vehicle described in the first post is 'fair' at best. How are the tires? Are there scratches or dents? Rust? Weak struts? These things take serious value away from your car.

Is it over ten years old or does it have over 100,000 miles? It all of a sudden becomes a near-worthless car. Would you buy something like this from a dealership? Didn't think so. If your car is that old, sell it on the street.

Right now is a bad time to get optimal value for any trade. The market is suddenly flooded with used cars, thanks to wildly successful promotions by car manufacturers over the summer (the 'Employee Discount' ones, for example). KBB likely isn't reflecting this.

I bust my fucking ass trying to bring honesty and integrity to my business, and make a somewhat decent living, and I get pretty pissed off when people piss and moan and call us a bunch of liars and scumbags just because they weren't able to scam us. Sometimes, I think some of the customers I deal with are sleazier than any car salesperson I've ever met. Sorry for the ranting here, but I take this whole thread as an absolute insult.

[sendero]

17. I'm not sure...

... that they target only women, but I don't doubt that they pile the bullshit on higher when it is a female customer.

In my experience, a car purchase isn't nearly as bad as a repair.

I've sat in the lobby and watched the service manager bring a women to tears telling her she needed $$$$$$$$$$ in repairs for "safety related" components. I didn't believe him for a second, and I wanted to stand up and screm "take the car somewhere else!", but I didn't.

I will say this - if you are a woman and your car needs repair, don't take it to any of those "chain" shops, they are mostly a bunch of crooks. And either learn about cars so you can challenge their assertions about what needs repair, or get a friend/family member to back you up.

Because the truth is, if you don't know anything about cars they've got you over a barrel.

[lukasahero]

24. Next time, please say something

It's not right that women should have to "bring a family member" with them to be treated fairly but that's the world we live in. We will continue to live in a world like this until the repair shops realize they won't be allowed to get away with it anymore.

Your advice is good - women should learn more about car repair but maybe this woman had no family member to turn to. Maybe she had kids and a job and no time to learn the ins and outs of car repair. You could have both helped her AND, more importantly, taught the repair shop the lesson that their sexist bullshit will no longer be tolerated.

[sendero]

28. My friend...

... I've learned by hard experience to deal with the world as it is, not as it should be. As a person who is basically a screaming reformed idealist, it has not been easy.

I totally agree that it is wrong, but you can either deal with it or get taken. Uncle Sam cannot fix this problem.

There are converse situations where I need the advice of a woman. I'm grateful that I have one :)

[lukasahero]

32. I wasn't asking Uncle Sam, I was asking you.

But I guess that might have been asking too much. Sorry, it sounded like you might interested in working toward change.

I agreed that women should know more but I pointed out potential reasons why some may not. Until we begin to take personal responsibility to help those who are less advantaged than us, we will continue to live in a world that mistreats those it can.

[sendero]

35. I am...

... not a part of this problem. I do not try to take advantage of women, in fact as I said in another post, for selling a used car overall I'd say women are tougher customers than men.

If a man likes a car, he will just buy it. Women are more thorough in their test drives, more questioning, etc.

I don't really know what else I could do - I totally agree that it's wrong the way many shops try to take advantage, not just of women but of anyone they think they can get away with.

[LynneSin]

33. and lose your job?

Seriously, what's wrong with women coming in and asking questions. And if you're not happy with the price tell them you're getting a second opinion.

Women shouldn't have to bring a family member to help them get car repairs but they shouldn't also expect a Knight on Shining armor to save them everytime.

I went to get my oil change done at my local Toyota Dealership and unfortunately my check engine light was on. The service guy said I would need an $80 diagnostic test in order to figure out what was wrong and why the light was on. Reluctantly I paid for it. The mistake happened when the guy told me what was wrong - my gas cap was loose and that sometimes gives off a false positive and it was a common issue.

I paid my bill and grumbled for about 24 hours. Then I did my research, found that this is a bug with most computerized exhausts systems and I called back asking for the service manager. I explained that I appreciated their department, but if this problem was so common knowledge why didn't he just check my gas cap first before recommend expensive diagnostic. Two weeks later I received a refund for the diagnostic repairs and a coupon for a free oil change.

Knowledge is power - women should be able to do this themselves without someone risking their job in order to save them. If someone is too dumb to question the bill or recommended repairs OR if they're too lazy to get a second opinion then they should be forced to pay more!

[lukasahero]

36. Whatever...

I didn't get the impression that the poster watching the situation was at work at the time. If that's the case then no, obviously he shouldn't tell someone to take the car elsewhere and put his job at risk.

If you read my post, nowhere did I suggest that there was anything wrong with women asking questions. In fact, I said that women should indeed know more. However, I also pointed out some possibilities as to why a particular woman might not have that advantage.

If you think anyone who doesn't have the same ability to do the research you do is stupid and lazy then we have nothing more to discuss. Sorry, I thought the people on this board might be interested in discovering ways they could pro-actively do something to help people who don't have the same advantages we do. I should have known better.

[sendero]

39. I was a customer..

... in the lobby. Perhaps I should have clarified that.

I would NEVER work for anyone that treats people like that.

[sendero]

37. Good for you...

.... most businesses of any kind have learned that unhappy customers are not good business. That "diagnostic" he ran (now) takes a $150 piece of equipment and 2 minutes time.

Not to pick nits - but the truth is that even if he had tightened the gas cap, the light would have remained on.

I did not mean to hit a nerve saying that a woman should learn about cars or have a friend/family to help out. I have a strong dislike for dishonest businesspeople, but they are out there, and there's not much we can do about it.

[LynneSin]

41. The light would have remained on for several starts

I researched this on the internet. Once the 'leak' is sealed (aka the gas cap is on tight) the light would turn off. It usually takes between 2-3 starts of the car for this to happen

[China_cat]

61. If you've got a technical college that has an automotive

department, see if you can get in there for at least a diagnosis. They've got no commercial interest to protect by overselling you on products or services, will do the repairs at cost of parts plus 10% for the program in most places and, even though the repairs are done by students, a master mechanic signs off on them.

Win-win situation.

[SarahB]

19. Too many women are afraid to appear "not nice".

Some of us are nice, but when it comes to our money, we're mean and don't care about that nice shit. I remember car shopping with my ex and he was more of the bend over backwards for them type who could be too easily sold. I tended to be the one who did the research and asked the tough questions. I remember an instance of saying something to a saleperson along the lines of, "I don't give a rat's ass where I buy the car. You either want to make this sale or you don't." :7

It's all a stupid game. Never let them intimidate you. You're the customer. They're making money off of you. Be prepared to leave at any time and don't let them screw with you. You did well. :thumbsup:

[sendero]

23. Believe it or not..

.... in my experience women are tougher customers than men.

And yet I sell a lot more cars to women than to men, sounds like a contradiction but isn't.

I sell more cars to women because I will address their questions and concerns, a lot of dealers will just blow them off :)

[lukasahero]

30. Thank you - see the Edmunds article I posted above

Sounds like you might be salesman # 2. We need more of you. :)

[Darth_Kitten]

31. You sound like you have the right attitude.

You treat women with respect. :)

[sendero]

34. Well...

... I try to just treat everyone with respect. And you know what, I'm happy to earn a sale from anyone who is willing to buy.

I NEVER use the "hard sell" approach. I really don't believe in it. Sure, I will try to sell the car but I won't go digging in the bottom of the barrel for pressure tactics.

Women tend to ask more questions than men. Women tend (IMHO) to have already spent their time understanding what a good price for the car would be, which works to my advantage.

I get lots of people who really don't understand the car biz at all, I just try to give them a fair picture of reality and they will either believe me or they won't. I find that telling the truth works pretty well :)

[SarahB]

42. Sometimes men don't like to ask questions.

Maybe they think it makes them appear weaker? :shrug:

I mean, you have to have some realism. You're not going to get Blue Book for your trade. That's not realistic. Though you do have to have enough knowledge to understand the condition your trade is in and what they'll be selling it for.

Kudos to you for answering the questions. :thumbsup:

[Patiod]

49. I actually think men are more likely to want to be "easy going"

When shopping for anything, even pricey purchases like suits, dress shoes, eyeglasses - he just walks and buys the first thing he sees that's acceptable, no questions asked, where I research and price-shop first, ask questions, and challenge what I see as attempts to sell me unnecessary upgrades or add-ons (No, I don't want 3 kinds of special coating on my lenses for $100).

My SO gets really upset and embarrassed when I argue or ask questions in the course of a purchase. We haven't bought a car together, but we've rented a few, and as a frequent traveler, I'm not easy prey for all the add-ons and extra insurances they try to sell you. He would just take them - he HATES to ask questions of anyone or challenge them.

We've fought over this - "you didn't have to be so rude to her." "I didn't appreciate her lying about the insurance, and the hard-sell on the trying to get us to upgrade vehicles."

[kcwayne]

27. Its their business model, they play everyone for being chumps

I read a book back in 1985 by a 30 year veteran of auto dealership sales. I wish I could remember the name of it now. But he laid out every game that they play and told you how to negotiate against it. After reading that book, I walked into dealerships and could reliably predict their next move.

It's a greasy business, and for some reason they think that it is the best way to operate, even though consumers complain that their is no other purchase experience that they hate more than buying a car. But every attempt at changing the model that I have heard about has failed, so the dealerships stay with the model that has worked (for them) for 70 years.

Oh, and to answer your question, yes they do pick on women. Actually, they just have an adjusted sales plan that they use on women. They definitely disrespect you. But they also disrespect males, they just use different psychological techniques to get them to buy.

They are using a tried and tested plan that is built on observational data that has been the most successful system they have tried to spur people that walk onto the lot to buy and provide them the highest profit margin. They know that it sucks, and that they are treating customers like suckers. But they think there is no better way to operate. Only consumers can prove them wrong, and to date, they have not rewarded ethical and fair car resellers with their business. Otherwise you would see these sales practices cease.

[sendero]

38. It was called...

...."Don't Get Taken Every Time" I think.

[patcox2]

85. the model doesn't just work for dealerships.

Name another area of retail where the "markup" is 5% or less (other than grocery stores). Clothing? 200% to 300%. Jewelry? It costs as much as a car and they make 100% on it.

They could have fixed prices. If they did that, the 50% of the people who are uninformed or are poor bargainers would pay a little less. And the 50% of the people who are informed and tough bargainers would pay more. The prepared would be subsidizing the unprepared. But in the end, the total would be the same.

[newportdadde]

43. Dealers will try to screw anyone with a wallet men or women.

Story for you. I was just out of college had gotten a good job and went to buy a new 99 Mustang. I went with my father who knows a bit about cars and definately looks like the stereotypical rough type of guy you would expect to know a lot about them.

They looked up a dealersip which had a car with what I wanted on the computer but said it was across the state so they couldn't cut me another 500 off the deal, I understood that so we went ahead with the deal. This salesmen made a sale on a new car in like 30min, easiest sale he would have all year.

I took delievery of the car and got it home.. only to discover the original window sticker in the glove box. The car didn't come from across the state, it came from a dealership up north about 15 miles away. They had just traded cars for it. When I got back from taking finals my father had left an envelope on my bed with 500 bucks in it. He had gone up there and thrown a fit in front off all their customers to get my money back.

So young college kid, 30min easy sale and the salesman and the GM had to try and scam me out of another 500 bucks. Fuck car salesmen.

Of course my wife gets the whole "You will like this color BS when she talks to salesmen" at least I avoid that.

[LTR]

99. Just because it had a local dealer on the window sticker...

...does not mean it just came directly from that dealership. It could have originated there, and been swapped across the state line before it arrived at your local dealership.

It's not uncommon sometimes for a car to go through one or two dealer swaps. And it costs money to transport the car and re-inspect it. The dealership I work at usually eats the cost, but it can sometimes be expensive.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but it might not have been a ripoff. The dealership refunded the money because your dad threw a fit on the sales floor and just wanted to avoid a scene.

[Samurai_Writer]

44. I've bought a few cars in my time...

and nearly every time, being a woman, I get the same damn thing. The conversation usually goes like this...

I go in and tell the salesman (always a man, have never seen a woman sales person in a car dealership) EXACTLY what I want. Model, options, etc. I come in totally prepared, with printouts of car specs and prices.

The first thing that throws them -- I want a manual transmission.

"Are you SURE you want a 5-speed, MRS. RadFemFL?"

They ALWAYS say MRS. Even though I wear no ring and don't introduce myself as such.

"It's MS. RadFemFL. And yes, I've always driven manuals."

Them: "Oh ok, and what color did you want?"

Me: "I don't care about the color. Do you have a model with these options? Yes or no."

Them: "Um... yes. Would you care to wait for your husband to join you before looking at the vehicle."

Me: "As I told you before, it's MS. I'm not married. I'm buying this car myself."

Them: "Oh... ok. What price range are you looking for? This car is pretty expensive." (meaning, a single woman couldn't possibly afford something this nice)

I tell them the price I'm willing to pay. Much haggling ensues. Then, we get to the financing part, where the finance guy basically treats me like an idiot child who doesn't have a minor in accounting, among other things.

I HATE buying cars. I am determined to drive my current vehicle until it just breaks into a million pieces and dies at the side of the road somewhere.

[crispini]

45. Some dealers are ok, some dealers suck.

When I went car shopping -- and I really WAS just looking at the time -- some saleslady got her hooks into me and was really trying the pressure thing, "what would it take to get you in this car today" and would NOT go away.

the 2nd dealership I went to let me figure it out on my own speed and were perfectly fine when I finally did buy.

[BiggJawn]

46. Cae salesmen worship Herb Tarlek.

And some of them still dress like him (plaid and stripes,white belt and shoes)

Low credit score is also viewed with as much derision as a Vagina by these reptiles.

I HATE buying vehicles. I KNOW I got fucked last time, but they fast talk and "sign here, here, here, AND here..." and it does no good to actually READ the shit because it's printed small and in Klingon.

"Car Saleman" is the civilian tie-in for Army Recruiters. You've sold cars? Well, we have a HOME for YOU in the Recruiting Command!

[liontamer]

47. yes they do. They are also racist

There was a big expose on car dealerships giving different finance packages to people based on race.

[ProfessorGAC]

52. Not All. My Dad Was A Scrupulous Man

He provided the best deal he could, knowing the dealership needed to make a profit, and he needed to make a commission to support a family. (Which at that time was just my sister, my mom, and him. The rest of us had already married and moved on.)

But, some salespeople are honest and real. My dad never cheated anyone about anything in his whole, unfortunately shortened, life.
The Professor

[liontamer]

92. I'm sure not all dealerships are bigoted

But I'm talking about dealerships that actually had different policies for people of different ethnic groups. And I was responding to the original poster who had a bad experience and was concerned if she had accurately read the situation. Since there is a lot of variance involved in the deals that salespeople give, and since most of it is at an individual's discretion, a lot of personal biases become visible in this situation. So a lot of people are racist and sexist and when they are free to express themselves it comes out.

[Kingshakabobo]

55. That's a bit of a broad brush. Don't ya think?

I spent 11 years in the business and I didn't see a lot of racism. I saw enough, don't get me wrong but most of my colleagues were decent folks.

[lildreamer316]

48. Yes.

hate to say it; but if you don't/can't go to alot of them because you need to get the car there, just take a man. I friggin hate it but it saves alot of time and money. I just want the damn car.

On edit:I haven't actually done this myself; freinds have had trouble. All my cars were bought used and those ppl were pretty easy to work with. Lucky I guess.

[Patiod]

50. Warning - double check your financing agreement carefully

I bought a car late on a Friday night. I had negotiated the financing rate, and let's say it was 6.4% (dont' remember rate). They brought in the paperwork, and told me where I needed to sign. I read through it carefully, and the salesman seemed annoyed, because the lot was closing. It turns out the agreement said "7.2%". I pointed it out, and he acted embarrassed, and took it in the back to be fixed. I assumed it was an honest error, and didn't think a lot more about it.

A few months later, our local TV did a story on car dealers purposely "making a mistake" (always in the dealership's favor) on the finance rates, and how a lot of people don't notice it in the midst of all the paperwork that's required. The end result can cost you hundreds of dollars.

[Kingshakabobo]

53. Yes. I spent 11 years as a finance manager in a dealership.

Make sure the "amount financed" box in the "federal truth in lending box" at the top of the contract matches the bottom line on you "bill of sale". A lot of "extras" such as bullshit insurance and financial products can get added and buried in the fine print of the loan contract.

Shop on-line so you know the best interest rates and make the dealership match the rate for your convenience. It's much easier to sign and go in the dealership but you have to do your home-work and make sure they don't pick your pocket along the way.

[Lars39]

77. Ideally...

If you're not in a hurry for another vehicle, you're almost always better off selling the vehicle yourself, then taking the money to shop around. Of course, while you're waiting for your vehicle to sell, you're looking at vehicles and saving up money to put with the money you'll get for the sale of the vehicle.

[DancingBear]

54. Have you ever tried negotiating via fax?

We do it all the time when buying cars.

First, go in and talk with the salesperson - even go so far as to get a value for your trade, if you want.

Second, tell them you are very close to buying, but HATE high pressure tactics. Ask the salesperson what his/her hours are over the next two or so days and tell him/her you'll be in touch.

Third, figure out EXACTLY what you want to pay - to the last penny (taxes, rebates, etc.) - then call the salesperson, ask for a fax number, and FAX your request. This way, it is a non-negotiable statement, and you bypass the face to face crap they try and get away with. Ask them to call you -if they agree with your number ask for something back in writing - then buy the car!

One caveat, however - DON'T do this as part of a "see if Dealer B can beat the price" scenario. If the dealer agrees with your price, then give him/her your business. It's only fair.

Good luck!!!

P.S. I'm a guy, but this is a gender neutral strategy. :)

[Kingshakabobo]

56. I like to call ahead and deal with the sales manager first.

This way, you establish a rapport with the decision maker first. He/she will most likely pass you off to one of his/her salespeople when you arrive but at least he/she will chose who you will deal with and will usually "give" you to one of his best people. Someone who is less likely to mis-treat you. This way you don't have to play salesperson lottery and run the chance of getting a new hire who doesn't know the product and/or have the people skills.

[DS1]

58. Everyone tries to screw women

You ever paid 10 dollars for a haircut?

[alarimer]

60. I don't know

But I much prefer the approach at Saturn (or at least how it used to be). There was no pressure, no negotiating on the price. They didn't immediately pounce on me as I wandered the lot. A very pleasant experience in contrast with the local Nissan dealer a few years later. That time I was dealing with their used car division. I was interested in a Frontier. The truck was in good shape; I have not had any problems with it. The problem was that the tires were in very bad shape and the spare tire (one of those donut types) was flat and unusable. So I went back to the dealer and pitched a fit. In my mind they should have at least checked the tires for wear and made sure that the spare was okay. they gave me another spare (probably from some other truck- no doubt some other sucker ended up with the bad one). Supposedly they had checked the vehicle over (so called 100 point inspection) but I seriously doubt the did if they did even check the wear on the tires. I ended up replacing them myself and haven't had any trouble with the vehicle, if only because Nissans are inherently reliable. But I will never buy from those assholes again.

[LostinVA]

62. Gosh, I opened a can of worms!

I at least feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who has INFERRED receiving this type of treatment...... I'm going to another dealership in the next town over, so we shall see!

[4_Legs_Good]

65. Good idea - and the Civic Hybrid is a nice car!

We've had ours for quite a while. We get 45 MPG and really enjoy it. Not as great as my Insight, but at least it can carry the kids!

Next time I'm gonna try a Prius, though. :)

david

[LostinVA]

68. It's a little more than I can really afford

But I have a 30 minute commute every day (one way), and my old car gets about 20 mpg.

[4_Legs_Good]

71. I have a 50 mile/way commute

so my Insight is *really* nice. I used to drive a pickup that got about 23 MPG. I've had my Insight for 4 years now.

Let's see...

4 years = 4 x (50 weeks x 5 days x 100 miles) = 100,000 miles

My Insight has a lifetime MPG currrently at about 57, so that's

100,000 miles / 57 MPG = 1755 gallons (HOLY SH*T THAT'S A LOT OF GAS!!!!)

Had I been driving my truck

100,000 miles / 23 MPG = 4348 gallons (OMG!)

So the difference is 2593 gallons at a conservative average of $2.00/gallon (I live in Southern California, so the gas prices are high - nearing $3 now for midgrade)

$5,186 saved in gas in 4 years, and over 2,500 gallons of gas from oil still under Saudi soil rather than floating around in the atmosphere.

So anyway, it's probably economical in the long run (the Insight cost me $20,000 as did the Civic Hybrid), but hybrids are just so cool either way.

Anyway, good luck, and sorry to go on!

david

[LostinVA]

76. Don't apologize!

I like hearing how people enjoy their hybrids. The Insight and Prius are just out of my reach, but I'm hoping to nudge a most high mpg out of the Civic.

[4_Legs_Good]

64. I usually go in knowing how much I want to pay, remembering that

they are going to make a profit. So you find out what the bare minimum is and then tack on $1K or so and go in there ready to spend no more than that.

Unfortunately the trade in game is completely in their court, so that's that. I think we got $800 for the last car we traded in - to be honest I was just glad to be rid of it without having to worry about someone else crashing it. You'll always get more for a personal sale than a trade-in.

Also, there are some great internet options for finding a dealer near you who will give you the best price you can find. I tried autobytel.com and I think some others. I found my Honda Insight that way and got a great deal on a hard to find car. We got our Hybrid Civic by I believe dealing with the dealership before we went to the showroom. We had actually negotiated a price before we walked in.

As everyone will tell you, DON'T be afraid to walk out, especially if they're being jerks. You can pretty much rest assured they'll try to get you back. I hate sh*tty car buying experiences!!

david

[Kathleen04]

66. Try buying from a fleet salesman

These fleet car salemen sell many cars everyday to businesses so they'll be less likely to try to scam you and will most often offer you the lowest price possible. This is the only way my dad will buy cars and over the years he has gotten to know the salesmen, because they work with the dealership long term.

I did a google search on it and found this link: http://beatthecarsalesman.com/secret-fleet.html :)

[bearfan454]

67. They try to screw anyone that doesn't know better.

Not just women. There are a lot of people that go in there and say - Where do I sign ? Really. There are. Mrs bearfan and I just bought a 2005 Honda Civic LX for her and they did us right. TT & L included it was 16,100. I was happy with that.

[Taverner]

69. No. They purposely try to screw EVERYONE

[Left_Winger]

70. My sentiments exactly

[chaska]

72. Yes, and men too. In short, car salesmen and women will try to....

screw over everyone.

[Wapsie B]

75. Yes. A guy I know

is a retired car salesmen. At the dealership he was at in town it was the customer wasn't viewed very kindly at all. The customer was someone to be overcome, to be conquered. It was act like the customer's best friend to their face, squeeze as much $$$ as you could out of them. Then laugh and joke when they left as to what a rube you were dealing with and move on to the next victim.

[KamaAina]

78. Yes they do. They screw minorities too.

An activist friend from many years ago referred to these practices as the "female tax" and the "non-Caucasian fee".

[patcox2]

83. Statistical co-incidence does not necessarily establish causation.

To believe that the observed disparity in pricing is the result of animus based on race or gender, you must believe that a car dealer would actually willingly charge white males less. Beleive me, no car dealer sits there thinking "oh, here's a white male, I will give him a better deal."

You will convince me of bias, if you can show me that you have ruled ourt possible alternative causes, like maybe varying rates oand ioncidences of technical sophistication, bargaining experience, financial sophistication, and education levels, among the differing populations in question.

[KamaAina]

87. It's more a question of what the dealers think they can get away with

Is it not bias when females are assumed to have a lower level of technical sophistication?

[patcox2]

79. Nope, they just want to make the biggest profit possible.

Really. They are out to confuse and bully anyone they can, nothing in particular directed at women.

You object to what you perceive as sexism in their belittling you for having to talk it over with someone else. You should hear what they say to a man who says he needs to talk it over with his wife. Its the same either way.

First thing they teach you in sales, actually, is that a married person who comes in alone is not a qualified buyer, don't waste too much time until they come back with spouse.

[Whoa_Nelly]

81. Have already informed my 6' 4" son

that he WILL be coming with me later this fall when I go to trade in my car for a vehicle that gets better mileage. He totally understands, and always looks out for his mom.

[leftofthedial]

82. many of them try to screw everyone

it's never been a particularly honorable business, but times are very hard now and in hard times, things get even nastier

[noahmijo]

84. From a guy: YES they do try to screw women

Because most of them see women as non mechanically inclined who will believe anything the nice (sometimes handsome) car dealer man says.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS bring a guy ANY guy with you when car shopping if you are a woman.

Better yet bring a guy and an armload of information with you just like you did that was good that you got smart and didn't bite the bait.

Hey it's sad that this is the way it is but it's the truth.

[madmom]

86. Yes, bought a new car from a....

very prominate dealership and he screwed me over with my trade in and when I went back and called him on it he actually,laughed and said "Hey don't you know not to trust car salesmen we're all crooks!"

[meow2u3]

88. Some of those weasels will try to sneak behind women's backs

to rip her off. Some car salesmen (yes, men) will pull the old bait-and-switch scam with a new twist: quote her a reasonable price and book value trade-in, only for her to find out after she signed the agreement that her trade-in value was lower than quoted and/or the total price of the car was jacked up--all behind her back!

This happened to me in 2001. I knew a little more about cars than the salesman was comfortable with. He couldn't rip me off to my face, so he waited until after I I couldn't back away from the deal to hit me with this nasty surprise.

[SW FL Dem]

89. I hate car dealerships

I always go in with hubby and they tend to ignore me, until I start talking. Last time we bought a car, I walked in with a copy of the Kelly Blue Book, Consumer Reports and other pricing info in my purse. The salesman didn't know what was coming. He kept addressing questions to my hubby and I kept answering them. We knew not to mention trade in until after we agreed on a purchase price for the new car. We also had our own financing and a good down payment Finally, I told the jerk that I was the one that was going to make the decision and if he didn't start talking to me, we were leaving. Hubby is a great guy, we both have our areas of expertise. Hubby's isn't shopping, he paid full sticker for his first car (before we married). He got that car for $300 over what the dealer paid. The saleperson who sold me my last car got fired because he gave me too good of a deal.

[Castilleja]

90. Here's one.

My husband was looking for an inexpensive small car, good on gas. We went ot a local dealership, parked and as I was on my way out of the car, I saw an older guy come over, put his arm around my husband's shoulders and walk off with him to go shopping for the car. I didn't even get all of the way out of the car and had to hurry to catch up. I was so incensed! We saw a car or 2, but there was no way in hell I would have peacefully allowed a car purchase from this dude! And this dealership is owned by a woman!

Thankfully, that has never happened again.

[tjdee]

91. They screwed me!

And frankly, I'd never go into sales of any kind because the character traits I'd need to develop aren't ones I'd like to use. There's a sort of desperation in getting paid on commission, for example.

The place I got my last car screwed me fifty different ways because I a)needed a car right away, b)didn't know anything, c)went in openminded not expecting to find a bunch of jerks, etc. etc. I'm also a black woman, so that as usual was LOTS OF FUN!!

The worst experience I ever had, they sold me a shitty car that is only running by the grace of God/universe/Goddess/its own gumption, and I am scared to death of ever going to buy a car again.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

93. When going to buy a car take an older man with a pipe...

Trust me. They freak, because those kind of people will haggle all day because they have nothing better to do. I know it sounds sexist and mean, but that's the way it is. My uncle is one of the more honest car salesmen and honestly, women get screwed because they're women. Unless you find that needle in a haystack dude. For example, here at the local VW dealer, the salespeople are no pressure, and will walk around and talk cars for a long time, just knowing that kind of tactic will get you to come back and buy something. And it works.
Duckie

[Wcross]

94. They try to screw everybody.

Being a guy only makes them use a different script. You may get less for your trade in but guys will be convinced they need the "XT" version rather than the "LX" and pay extra for it. They will go for the undercoating or extended service plan.

Best deal I ever made was when I had bank financing in advance and had a set amount to work with. I also had no cash for a down and a near wrecked pickup. I just sat in the dealership long enough (I showed up at 11am and left at 7pm with my new truck. About 3 hours into it, my wrecked truck started growing in value and the "bottom dollar price" sank lower. I ended up saving 1000.00 by my circumstances and willingness to wait.

They didn't do it due to your gender, they did it because they are sharks.

[Dora]

97. This exact same thing just happened to my mother.

She's a 63 year old widow, and they kept her there for six hours when she'd gotten there at 3:00 in the afternoon. She knew exactly what she wanted, was financing through her bank, had it all ready to go, then they start draaaggggginggggg their feet, selling the options, screwing with the financing paperwork, disappearing, disappearing...

Assholes.