Panhandling angers me.

[Sean Reynolds]

I'm tired of walking the streets of downtown Salt Lake City and being constantly consumed by homeless (mostly, if not always men) asking for money.

I don't like it when people tell me they do it because there's no viable options. That's a load of crap because I know the city of Salt Lake, the LDS Church and Catholic Church (among others) are always helping the homeless population. They give them free food, free clothes and there's shelters open for housing.

I don't mind the "Will work for food" signs, if the person REALLY wants to work for it. I wanted to get my car cleaned and while pulling into the self-cleaning Sonic I noticed he had one of those signs. So I got out, told him I'd pay him to clean my car. Said I'd give him $20 bucks, plus pay for the stuff required. He refused! Now c'mon, $20 bucks for cleaning a freaking car is a good deal.

Why have a sign asking to work for food/money if you're not going to use it? Could it be he's just looking for a cheap buck.

Now I don't want to stereotype all homeless people, because I've met MANY that don't bother to ask your for change. BUT the ones that do I have a problem with. There's ample resources out there to help them get by.

So why don't they use them?

What's worse is the Vietnam Vets. Now some of you know my dad's a Vietnam Vet and he gets REALLY mad when he sees them and their "Vet in need of help" signs. Why? Because Salt Lake has a great VA Hospital that will take in ANY homeless vet.

Maybe I'm just cold hearted, but I don't understand panhandling.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sean Reynolds]

5. I just point them in the way of homeless shelter.

But giving them money does nothing to fix the problem. It only makes them dependent on US and not themselves.

There is a reason for homeless shelters and low-cost housing.

[datasuspect]

11. ever been in a homeless shelter?

ever been homeless? i have.

i went to a shelter. ONCE.

it is a lot like jail. lots of alpha predators. you're safer on the street.

it sucks when you can't bathe or shit in relative privacy or comfort. i guess their homelessness is their own fault though? maybe if they took some personal responsibility and picked themselves up by their bootstraps, maybe one day they could be cube rats too.

[Sean Reynolds]

14. I love it! Putting words in my mouth.

I never said it was their fault. Please point me to where I said that? I however do not believe asking me for a buck is going to solve their problems. If they choose to stay on the streets as opposed to staying in a shelter THAT's their problem!

And for the record, I've been to a homeless shelter. I give clothing, school materials and toys to the local shelter for kids that are homeless can use them.

But never once while at the shelter did I encounter someone who asked me for money.

[Bluerthanblue]

45. they aren't asking you

to FIX them- and sending them to a shelter won't do that either, otherwise there would be no homeless.-

They are asking you to give from your abundance, to their lack.
If you decide not to, that's your choice. Don't hate them for needing.

[Sean Reynolds]

49. I don't hate them.

I pity them and that angers me. I hate the fact that they're not understanding that there ARE options out there -- even if they're scarce. I do what I can and sometimes I give them money...but I know deep down it won't do anything to better them or their situation and that eats me up inside.

[Bluerthanblue]

64. pity is a kind of hate-

because it brings with it judgement.
i think you really DO feel something better, frustrated at seeing someone in a situation no human should live in. ESPECIALLY in this, the richest nation in the world. i 'thought' i could fix my ex's problems. And i resented the fact that i couldn't, so much so, that i nearly died rather than 'give up' on him.
We can't 'fix others'- most of us have our hands full 'fixing' ourselves.

You see 'real people'- and that is not comfortable- but numbness, and being uncaring is a terrible option. i advise you to give freely or refuse. Otherwise you are not 'giving' you are obligating.-

you obvioulsy DO care, just don't put your expectations on others.-- it hurts everyone involved.

[HadItUpToHere]

153. when you live in a large city, and see the same people in the same places,

almost every day, asking for money- it wears thin in a hurry.

there was one woman who stood in the middle of the sidewalk everyday, just repeating "change...got any change?" to everyone that walked by.
the first day, i gave her what i had...but it only took a couple of weeks before i was so tired of her routine that after that whenever she asked if i had any change, i'd just shake my pockets so she could hear it jingle, and say "yep, LOTS!" and just keep on walking to my subway stop.

[tjdee]

2. Ooh, my first time to use this icon:

:popcorn:

[Deja Q]

114. Don't you just miss Flippy though?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

(jus' kidding re: Flippy. I'm overall glad that one vanished...)

[tjdee]

120. Flippy's GONE??

Geez!

[Chovexani]

3. Wow.

I'm tired of walking the streets of downtown Salt Lake City and being constantly consumed by homeless (mostly, if not always men) asking for money.

Homeless people are eating you? I'd be pissed off too.

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

[Sean Reynolds]

6. It feels like it. ;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I don't know.. and I don't worry about it. I give what I can when I can

I would rather give something to someone who does not need it than withhold something from someone who desperately does need it.

[Sean Reynolds]

7. I give them money too....

But I'd rather they do more to help themselves than sit on a corner asking for change.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. I give them food. But I agree, I would rather have a society where they

were better supported than to rely on the kindness of strangers.

[Bluerthanblue]

19. that's a noble

ideal, but you don't know what brought them to where they are, or what truly keeps them there-

i think you are angry NOT because you see they have options, but because they make you 'feel' and you can't fix them. Which i understand. It shouldn't 'anger' you, unless you somehow feel 'guilt' or 'compassion' or something equally frustrating.

Also, maybe they aren't going to the shelters because they just can't face the prostelitizing..... or the reality that surrounds them, when they see themselves in the others there.

i ALWAYS give something to anyone who is asking.- even if it's just enough to get a cup of coffee.- anyone who has gotten desperate enough to face the hostiity, and judgement that comes their way so often, needs all the kindness they can get.

i'm not meaning to put you down, i'm saying you have a kinder heart than you want to admit.

and i prefer kind people to judgemental or stingy people ANYDAY.

You offered that man a good chance. you have nothing to feel guilty about, or regret. We ALL need each other... and some are more needy than others-

try not to resent that in them- that person could have been you, given different circumstances.
peace,
blu

[Sean Reynolds]

43. I guess I just think....

That giving them money does NOTHING to better their situation. If we all helped build more homeless shelters, ran food drives and actually helped the homeless population, it would change. However right now giving a homeless man money doesn't get him any closer to having a better "life" -- mentally ill or not. It isn't about turning a cold shoulder to these people, it's about finding them help.

I'll give money, but I don't like it because I know it feeds the problem.

[Merrick]

8. churches and homeless shelters

don't give away free beer or cigarettes. I have a home and a job and can't live without either - I'd hate to see what I'd be like if I was sleeping behind Hardees.

[crispini]

35. I hear ya.

Yes, indeed.

[blue sky at night]

9. sorry, I disagree with you.......

if a person humbles himself or herself by asking for help, I never refuse......unless I don't have anything to give. The quickest way to get them to stop "bothering" you is to give them a freaking quarter. I always give what I have in change up to a buck or two. Perhaps you have never been in a situation where you have to ask for help, and I don't mean money, but some sort of help from strangers....I strongly believe in what goes around will come around. I like to perform senseless acts of kindness anyway. I am not bashing you, because it is not your fault these folks are down on their luck....and if they are "lazy" so what, at least they are asking for help not taking it.

[Sean Reynolds]

12. It's not that they bother me.

It's just I know giving them money isn't going to do squat and that it's the best to point them in the direction of an organization that can help. If a homeless person is starving they can go to the Cathedral here in Salt Lake and the Catholic workers will feed them. They can get clothing and housing throughout the city. Yet they don't utilize these services, why?

[datasuspect]

13. i can't believe you are saying this

to a person who has NOTHING, the price of a cup of coffee, some burgers, and a pack of squares is like a godsend.

[Sean Reynolds]

17. And FOOD is available!

All they have to do is walk to the local Cathedral where the nuns would be HAPPY to help them eat, bathe and find new (used) clothing.

You make it sound like NOTHING is available for these people and that just isn't true.

[datasuspect]

23. i only hope that you are never put in that position

because many of your misconceptions would smack you right in your face.

and try the doors on most churches nowadays: they're LOCKED.

catholics are good about this (go to the rectory and they will give you sandwiches or snacks, some have mcdonalds coupons), but many food pantries (at churches) have (love the irony) RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS! which means you have to show proof of residence somewhere to get foodstuffs you have to cook, which requires a STOVE.

[Sean Reynolds]

30. I work with the local Catholic Church.

Every day at noon they give out lunch and every night they give out dinner. Just like the local homeless shelter does the same thing and you'll find many LDS Churches in the city doing the exact same thing. Maybe it's different where you are, however here in Salt Lake there are many options for homeless people.

[Lars39]

24. And do their mental conditions or addictions allow them

to seek what you presume they need?

[Spinzonner]

27. Do you believe the statistics about what percentage of

the homeless are mentally ill ?

Does that affect your perception and expectations of the situation.

I think, perhaps, that you are expecting these homeless guys to act in a responsible, organized, rational manner to their situation. If they were able to do that, many wouldn't be there in the first place.

Though it doesn't happen often where I live, I sometimes have the feeling of discomfort you described. When I do and while I'm contemplating my response (I never just refuse out of hand), I ask myself how I would want someone else to respond if that person in front of me was a nnedy relative or friend of mine. That pretty much does it for me, I couldn't refuse a friend or relative and would appreciate someone helping one of mine.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. being destitute

doesn't mean you don't have any 'pride' left. No matter how self defeating that pride may seem to you- or anyone else.
Really look into what it is like to live on the street. It's not a great choice. But i understand why people choose to beg from strangers rather than face some 'shelters'. PLEASE, don't judge these folks so coldly, or 'black/white'ly.... behind each one is a story that you'd likely not want to have lived.

i know. honestly i do. humility is a lesson that leaves you changed forever. And often times easily broken by the sorrows this world is so full of.

[blue sky at night]

58. I agree that is the best course for them......

trouble is they have to "work" at the shelters, which means they are asked to change their lifestyles and attitudes. Some of them may have given up, or are truly too lazy to change. (Just look at the president, he is a prime example.) We have a network here in town that helps homeless families. We don't see this problem with them, they want to work, they just are out of luck, work, or sick and lost their home. They use Church buildings to live in for a week at a time, then members help them find a job, housing, etc. It is called the Interfaith Hospitality Network. You are doing the right thing, too bad there are so many folks on the street that need help; psychological, physical, monetary, or otherwise.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

15. Why get angry? Tell them no, and go along with your day...

If you can help, cool - if not... move along. Like another poster said, they aren't TAKING, you have options. I choose compassion and help in small ways when I have the means. When I don't, I apologize and move along.

Those vets should not anger you. Many are mentally wounded... deeply. Working or even going to the VA 'hospital' may not be a realistic option for the mentally challanged.

Seriously, get over the anger and thank your lucky stars that you are not in that position.

[sniffa]

16. and how about those fiLthy irish

can't stand them either.

you think you have it bad in saLt Lake? try a bigger city and you'LL appreciate just how few homeLess you actuaLLy have.
they're not there by choice. maybe they shouLd just die and not bother you anymore.

[Sean Reynolds]

18. I never said I couldn't stand 'em.

And whaT's uP wiTh YoUr TyPinG?

[sniffa]

20. sorry, i'm homeLess

and can't afford a new keyboard.

[Sean Reynolds]

21. But you can the net?

Hm...;)

[sniffa]

25. i net the can

bye and bye

[datasuspect]

26. i used to

it's called a public library.

but stow your shit elsewhere, security will try and throw you out.

[knowbody0]

29. smile

[Chovexani]

33. Tell me about it

He'd go insane here in NYC.

Homeless people don't bother me either way. If I can spare some change, I give it to them. The only time I get nervous is if it's late at night and I'm at an ATM or something...but I get nervous about anyone I see late at night when I'm at an ATM, homeless or not.

[no name no slogan]

22. having actually BEEN HOMELESS

i can tell you that it SUCKS. thankfully i never had to resort to panhandling (i was employed, but homeless-- an ever-increasing phenomenon in post-Reagan America), but i would never begrudge anybody who did it for whatever reason.

i hope like hell you never find yourself homeless some day. it is one of the most degrading things you will EVER experience.

:eyes:

[Sean Reynolds]

34. I hope I don't either.

But if I am homeless I won't panhandle....and I know this because I've seen that there ARE OPTIONS for these people!

[no name no slogan]

41. not for all of them

if you are a single male in this society, your options are slim and none, for the most part.

i live in a very liberal state (MN) and work in human services. even here we have had a very severe homeless crisis, for a number of reasons: spiraling housing costs, stagnant wages, low-wage jobs that don't pay enough to keep up with rents, etc.

sorry Sean, but there are NOT options for many people. they have no family, no friends, or are mentally ill and CANNOT take care of themselves. they have no other recourse but to sleep on the streets and beg for money.

like i said, i hope to hell you never lose your home-- but just beware: most Americans are no more than TWO PAYCHECKS away from life on the streets. you better hope and pray that you don't become one of these statistics.

[Sean Reynolds]

54. There ARE better options than panhandling.

And I know it because I sit and help hand out food as much as possible (something that happens every day).

[Bluerthanblue]

81. believe me, having been on BOTH

sides of this coin- it is a HELL of alot easier to give, than to recieve.-

and once you've been on that other side, you will be forever changed. FOREVER.

i'll say it again, if shelters really worked, there wouldn't be any more homeless people. But i will also say that maybe your caring could be put to even better use lobbying for the homeless. Reasearching why so many are not able to get thier needs met in the places currently available- like schools that 'have everything necessiary' to teach, but aren't effectivly 'getting through'- it's not anyones FAULT, but there is clearly a problem that isn't being addressed.

[Sean Reynolds]

89. Oh I know there's a problem.

And I wish I could fix it. I think, in the end, giving money makes me feel even more guilty because I know it's doing jack shit.

[bliss_eternal]

155. I just wanted to say how very sorry I am to hear

of your hard time. :hug: I am sincerely hoping that things are much better for you now.

I appreciate that you are willing to be so candid about a difficult period of your life.

bliss

[DS1]

28. I give them some cash, knowing full well that sometimes it'll

end up just buying them some booze and smokes. Fuck it, if I were homeless that's all I'd want to do to, drink myself into oblivion

[crispini]

31. I used to feel like that.

But then, when I lived in Thailand, the panhandlers there were quite literally beggars with horrific problems. Even the poorest folks would toss a coin in their cup (so would I); they were the lowest of the low. I would regularly see people missing limbs, eyes, most of their teeth. They would be wearing filthy rags. Literally covered in dirt and grime and falling off of their body.

I once was walking through a market and I saw a mother with a hydrocephalic baby. The baby's head was swollen into this horrific alien head. It was larger than the baby's body. I will never forget that sight as long as I live.

When I got back to the States and saw our homeless -- who, mostly, are far cleaner and far, far healthier looking than the beggars in Thailand -- for some strange reason I became so happy to hand them a buck or some change. Because at least they don't evoke that visceral horror that the beggers in Thailand did.

One time I didn't have any ones so I handed a woman a five. Her eyes lit up and her whole body radiated joy. She nearly cried in gratitude. How little it cost me to give that to her. How can I not give them something when I am so rich?

[Sean Reynolds]

37. I think the difference here....

Is that in Thailand there are hardly any options for homeless people. I wouldn't have a problem if I knew that was their only chance of surviving....and I know damn well it isn't. I know they could walk only a couple blocks to the homeless shelter where they'd assist them in any way.

[datasuspect]

42. "homeless shelter where they'd assist them in any way. "

dude, you have no idea what you are talking about.

the shelter is usually a lockdown situation (go in at night and you cannot leave until morning). some filthy blankets, a mat, possibly a cot, one guard who is doing other shit

and

lots of crack smoking, beer drinking, and if you're not careful you can get all your shit taken from you.

[Sean Reynolds]

90. Actually I've worked at the shelter's here.

The Salvation Army, along with the city, are getting ready to build a larger one for the city.

[crispini]

51. I think you get angry because you feel a powerlessness.

You want to tell them how to run their lives, "Go, go to the shelter, go get help over here or over there," and they won't listen. Instead, they're insisting on being there, facing you with the imperfections of the world, of the reality of hunger and homelessness, mental illness and alcoholism, the fact that there are some things you just can't "fix." You can't make it better for them -- there are too many and your logic and time and skills can't stretch that far, and they are independent people and won't listen or can't listen or just can't DO the steps which you see as so simple, so self evident. For whatever reason.

The only person you can save is yourself.

Why does it matter how they live their lives, what they want the money for? They are offering you an opportunity to practice the paramita of almsgiving. Practice it, or don't.

[southlandshari]

32. Have you considered the fact

that many people are homeless - and resort to panhandling, as opposed to more "appropriate" means of improving their station in life - due to mental illness or substance addiction?

If you have not experienced either of those two things, it may be difficult to have empathy for those who have.

There but for the grace of God, IMHO, go the rest of us....

[Sean Reynolds]

38. I know substance abuse.

My father is an abusive alcoholic that lived on the streets for many years. He was also a Vietnam Vet (as I said) and has some mental problems.

[southlandshari]

50. Actually....

...it is your father, not you, who knows substance abuse and mental illness, according to your own reply. You undeniably know the very cruel effects it has on loved ones, if you lived with the father you describe.

I am honestly not trying to be argumentative here. To be honest, I used to work in Dupont Circle in DC, and used to get so pissed off at seeing the same faces on the same apparently able bodies crouched outside my office door, asking for a "hand out" day after day.

At some point, though, I got it. No one in their right mind WANTS to be a panhandler, a beggar, a mooch. I think it is instinctually human to want to take care of oneself. And those who don't, very often can't. I'm not saying they don't have some responsibility in the whole thing. But they can't dig out on their own. I'd rather invest my emotions on the whole shebang into figuring out how to help people help themselves (which often will include rigorous rehab and or medical treatment and ongoing medication) than grow more frustrated by thinking of this as a "character issue". Because it is anything but.

[Sean Reynolds]

59. I don't agree.

That substance abuse of his does have an impact on me and my mother. He might be feeling the physical pains of the abuse, however we're feeling the ramifications of his actions. Substance abuse involves the entire family, whether you want to believe it or not.

[southlandshari]

73. Don't you see that we are saying exactly the same thing?

I just posted that you are undeniably feeling the cruel affects of the substance abuse and mental illness of your father. I completely agree that both affect the entire family of an individual who suffers one or the other (or both). Where is the disagreement here?

I come from a family with a deep history of both alcoholism and mental illness - I would NEVER, for any reason, minimize the tragic impact these things have on a family.

All I was trying to say is that - until and unless you take a whirl in the mind and body of your father, or someone else who is under the spell of substance abuse or mental illness - it is simply not logical to judge their actions as a lack of character, will or discipline. These are forces beyond the control of one individual's will, far too often.

Can you see the distinction?

[Sean Reynolds]

75. But seeing his actions...

Are a lot like taking a whirl in his mind.

I've posted MANY stories here at DU about my father. I don't particular like him because of his substance abuse and the things I've seen from it. He makes sure you FEEL what he's feeling and so you pretty much are going through it with him.

[southlandshari]

79. You feel the effects of his madness, for sure...

Which quite likely may be worse than what he is feeling. If he is a true addict, he is probably very manipulative, and has been successful for a while at running things in the family his way, even if everyone can see that "his way" is nowhere near the right way.

Does this sound familiar at all?

[Bluerthanblue]

117. ohhh, Sean,

i can truely understand, on so many levels.

Just remember that YOU have a 'right' to be angry that your father isn't and wasn't the 'father' everyone deserves.

And try VERY hard, to seperate your own personal pain and your very real and justifiable feelings and disapointments about your father color the way you see everyone else who is in a 'similar' situation.

You couldn't 'fix' your father, and it was and IS not your responsibility or within your capability to do that either. And that truth, really REALLY sucks.

When my mother died, the hardest part for me, was letting the 'dream' that she would someday 'be the mother' i so desperately wanted, and needed finally die too. No matter how 'foolish' and unrealistic that 'dream' was- as long as she was alive, i clung to it, down deep in that 'little girl' place.

i wish you peace, and comfort. Try and learn from what you have lived- and know that life is very seldom (if ever)'fair'.

blu

[Chovexani]

39. Truer words were never spoken

In this economy, so many people are literally one paycheck away from homelessness.

My heart really goes out to them in the winter here, when it's cold and they really have nowhere to go. There was a homeless vet I used to see all the time on the way to work back when I worked at a comic shop. I used to buy him coffee all the time. Sometimes I wonder what happened to him.

[sniffa]

40. we have a famiLy member who's homeLess

and he's a vietnam vet.

he's aLso the craziest person i may have ever met (and i know many).
famiLy has to track him down around the hoLidays so he can eat a good meaL and spend it with his brothers and sisters.

one time at christmas, he took off his pants.

where was i going with this?

[JimmyJazz]

57. he seems to not be aware that for most people to collect benefits

from the government, they need a permanent address. Therefore, the "homeless" are automatically disqualified from receiving said benefits.

[Sean Reynolds]

63. I'm not talking about benefits.

I'm talking about clothing, food and housing. Believe it or not Salt Lake City is actually building very low-cost housing projects for homeless people throughout the city. They're cheap to live in and that will give a person a permanent address. This won't stop homelessness, but it's a start.

I don't think however that panhandling IS the answer and it makes me mad to see someone do that...not because I dislike them, but because it hurts to realize that people aren't going to at least exhaust the options readily available.

[southlandshari]

77. They don't because they can't, Sean.

People who are in the grips of drug addiction (including alcoholism) and/or mental illness just do not see their options through the same lens you or I might. Please try to understand that.

I am glad you used the word "hurt" rather than "anger" in that last post. It hurts all of us to see folks who could benefit from services and outreach and programs go unhelped because of their own inability to take advantage of those options.

They aren't ignorant assholes. Many homeless people are incredibly bright - they are just lost in the fog of addiction or mental illness. It is a scary and sad reality.

[Sean Reynolds]

85. That's where the government fails.

And that makes me even more angry and not at the homeless population. The problem is that we should do EVERYTHING in our power to make sure that these people don't have to panhandle for money. Options need to be there for every type of homeless person. The VA Hospital in Salt Lake opens its doors to every vet that's homeless, no matter their state of mind. That's a start. But what about the one's that aren't vets?

[southlandshari]

94. The government's role

That's a broad topic for debate, and it is here that I get into matters of faith, and that might set me apart from some others in this debate. I do not think that it is the government's responsibility to provide services for everyone and every situation. In fact, I don't think it would serve any of us well if government tried to take on that role.

I believe we as humans are called upon by God (or some higher being) to do right by each other. The problem is, it means going way outside the comfort zone for most of us. But it is what it is, IMHO. We have among us the resources and the energy to help bring health and a decent life to every person on the planet. What we too often lack is the will.

I am still an eternal optimist, though. I do have hope for us all!

[BikeWriter]

134. PTSD sufferer here, Shari. I held out until I had a retirement...

But as you say, I've been close to losing everything before.

[chaska]

44. Let's face it, homelessness is not a character builder. That said...

try to ease up a little. Make what allowances you can. You get frustrated, it's understandable.

[greeneyedpookie]

46. Im in total agreement about

the Vietnam Vet stuff. My father is a vet, was in the thick of it too from 10/67 to when he was wounded 5/68 (still has the shrapnal metal in his lung and bits still coming out of his leg, almost 40 years later, plus PTSD and Agent Orange affects with the cancers.) We all complain about the homeless that claim that they are a Vietnam Vet and need help. Where my father lives is a big city here in NM and it has a big Veterans Hospital that can aquire these people, however they still sit on a corner and beg. My father is only 56 years old, however he was able to work with the administration to get his pay. He is retired and is getting 100% benifits from the V.A. These men give up and do not try to fight the system. It has taken my father 8 years to get where he is at right now with the V.A., however, my parents are living very well.

If you do not agree, flame on.

GEP

:bounce:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greeneyedpookie]

78. It's not that

he deserves it from this Country. His wounds were from friendly fire. It's not a "We got ours!" It is a "What he deserves from his Country!" and they know it. He was debriefed for 16 hours to not let this out. My mother did not find out the cause of his injuries for almost 30 years after they were married. (They got married after he returned home in 1968) It was after he read the book "Stolen Valour" that he let his story out with the family.

GEP

:bounce:

[Lars39]

84. The other vets are no less deserving because of their inability to fight

for what they deserve.

[greeneyedpookie]

108. Now I did not say that

these people need to read into what they need to do to get the best that they can get out of the V.A. It took my father almost 40 years to get what he deserved. Now he had to study what he needed to do, however from what I have seen, the library is free to go to. If these people are educated to the fact of what they deserve, then they will get it.

GEP

:bounce:

[Lars39]

118. You're back to saying "If my dad did, so could they" & that's not true.

Many of "these people" are mentally ill or have addictions,or weren't well educated in the first place.

[greeneyedpookie]

121. Neither was my father

He has severe PTSD. This was unfounded until he was in a situation with my daughter's father that tried to kill both of us in the same day! We always thought my father was over protective from being a reserve cop when we were kids. Come to find out it was a fight/flight thing. My father fought for my and my daughter's life and went to jail for it! He took an assult on himself (a car ramming into his driver's side door) and took action, as a solider and a cop. From what he knew from the lovely law enforcement here, that the welfare check-up with me did not go through, he took the law into his own hands. Went to jail for it. And i found out after the fact that if he would have caught the fucker, that boy would be dead. I have more stories, would you like to hear them???

GEP

:bounce:

Edit: spelling

[Lars39]

123. No one has been dealt the same hand of cards or the same abilities

to deal with them.

Peace.

[greeneyedpookie]

124. I agree

have experience some nightmares.

peace

On Edit: Just pointed out to me, (by my wonderful hubby.) How can we know that these people are actually homeless. How do we know if they are actually a Con Aritst. How do we know if this dude or dudett are not acutally live in the upper class and make more money than we do at begging??? Think about it. Think of what the OP stated, he offered $20 to have the guy wash his car?? And the dude didn't take it??? makes one wonder!!!

GEP

:bounce:

[ofrfxsk]

47. Sean, how old are you?

I ask because life turns in ways you can't imagine when you're young. Where I am from, men's shelters aren't exactly fun places to be even if they are run be Mormons or Catholics. People are mean and that makes for more mean people. That is what you are seeing. God forbid you have a heartship in your life. What would you do if you were homeless?

[Sean Reynolds]

52. I'm 21.

I think we can admit that the money we give homeless people won't go to shelter no matter what. A homeless shelter may be the most god-awful place on earth, however it's a roof.

If I were homeless I'd probably live on the streets during the summer, spring and fall months and go to the shelters during the winter months. Then I'd get my food through the local charities -- which I help with now -- and try and avoid panhandling at all chances. These people don't panhandle for a roof over their head. And food is already available to them and I make it a note to tell them this.

[crispini]

62. Try it, why not?

Cut yourself off from everything and live as a homeless person for a few weeks or months. See what it's like.

[Sean Reynolds]

65. That'd be a good experiment .

[AlienGirl]

80. I heartily recommend it!

My professor is planning to do the same thing. I gave him a book written by a Buddhist monk who belongs to an order where their initiation is they have to live as homeless beggars in the US and they aren't allowed to tell anyone that they're actually monks-in-training.

Tucker

[crispini]

88. wow, what's the name of the book?

sounds fascinating.

[AlienGirl]

92. "Bearing Witness"

I forget the author's name, though.

Tucker

[crispini]

100. Does this look like it?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609803913/ref=sib_rdr_dp/103-8638655-7964600?%5Fencoding=UTF8&no=283155&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books

[AlienGirl]

102. That's the one!

[crispini]

107. Excellent! I'll put it on my list. Thanks!

[AlienGirl]

110. You're welcome!

It's a very interesting book. If I were Buddhist, I'd want to join that order--they sound great.

Tucker

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. It saddens me. And yes, I do believe there is something very wrong

with the heart of somebody who would be angered by panhandling. Abuse angers me...Cheating to get ahead angers me. But, panhandling just saddens me. I hope you soften up someday.

[Sean Reynolds]

55. Anger can be caused by saddness.

Just saying.

[ScreamingMeemie]

60. I'm sorry Sean, but I don't sense anger caused by sadness in your

post anywhere. I have never gotten angry at a homeless person, and I never will.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. I don't believe I told you what you think, Sean. I think I gave you my

opinion. There is no need to lash out at someone who was respectful to you.

Thanks.

[Sean Reynolds]

76. You told me I was angry and that I wasn't sad.

About the situation that is. I think you're wrong. I am sad, and that makes me angry. I don't like seeing people standing on the corners looking for money.

It eats me up knowing that giving them money will do nothing to help them. And that, in return, makes me angry.

[ScreamingMeemie]

87. Perhaps if you had posted it in that manner the thread would have

gone better. It is a great thing that you help out at food banks. Here in Detroit there is not nearly enough food to go around from the food banks and many are forced to resort to whatever means possible to feed themselves and their families.

[Sean Reynolds]

93. I realized my post came off harsh.

I went to edit it, but it's been too long. Now I can post a reply about what I meant, but no one will read it and I'll still be flamed. I guess I didn't articulate my thoughts the way I should have.

Some people in this thread understand what I meant from my original post, sadly I doubt many other people wont.

[ScreamingMeemie]

96. I'm done flaming you Sean.

I've been there, at the end of an unintended flame I mean. Friends?

[Sean Reynolds]

101. I don't think you flamed me.

It's other posters that probably, rightfully so, did not understand my original intent. I feel bad now about making this post, because I'm now being told I hate the homeless and that I blame them for their own problems.

Which couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh and yes, friends we are. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

122. please don't

regret posting.
You made people think- and voice their perspective. i personally think you care very much, and that caring comes in part from your OWN personal suffering. Its so hard to see 'potential' in people, and be helpless to do anything to bring that potential to life.- But, it's the sad truth.
No man is an island, but we ALL steer our own ships, some with faulty navigational skills, abilities, and equipment- but as i've said- life is NOT fair, and we don't enter this world with 'equal' playing fields.

i see a young man with a tender heart, who wants to make the world a better place- anger usually is an easier emotion than fear, or frustration, or futility.

you have a passion- and a mission- i hope it inspires positive change in this world-

[ulysses]

56. you working something out of your system or what?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merh]

67. Oh, you leapers get away from me - we gave you a part of town

to use - we throw you our garbage and scraps. Now don't touch me, go back to the caves and don't let me see you any more!! :sarcasm:


Big turd is too kind - load of crap is more like it. :argh:

[DS1]

69. No, that's Hypnotoad elsewhere in the lounge

I would recommend drinking more water :-)

[JimmyJazz]

72. how did you know I have the hiccups?

Damn, dude - you're everywhere :)

[AlienGirl]

66. It isn't always about homelessness

Many of the working poor have a place to live in, but can only barely afford the rent, yet are not poor enough to get food stamps, and even if they get food stamps, those don't cover things like medicine and toilet paper and maxi pads. When it's four days till payday, and you've used all the TP and the paper towels so now you're wiping with wadded-up newspaper, and your prescription medicine cost the last $25 you had, and now your cat is hungry, and you already borrowed money from your mother last week and she's broke too, and you need $5 to put in the car so you can drive to work for the next four days...you might, just might, think about holding up a "Please Help" sign and a cup.

Tucker

[Sean Reynolds]

74. You might. I wouldn't.

I come from a poor family. Growing up I lived in a house where we had hardly any money to buy food or pay the bills. My dad worked at 7-11 and my mother did daycare. My brother and I did what we could, but it really never was enough. There were times my parents went without food so that my brother and I could eat.

But never did they go sit on a corner and ask for money...because they knew that the options weren't in their best interest.

I can see your point, however I do understand that many people that do panhandling ARE homeless and won't even bother getting up and walking over to the local church for FREE food.

I'd love to help them out, and I do....but I don't like it when people don't take advantage of the options there.

[AlienGirl]

83. You might change your mind as you get older

Especially if there is someone else depending on you who is going hungry.

Tucker

[AlienGirl]

91. What *would* you do...

if you were four days away from payday, had already gotten all the loans you could from family and friends, and your period started? (Okay, assuming you were female.) Bear in mind that pads aren't free, you need them desperately or everypiece of clothing you own will be ruined, and you can't buy pads with food stamps.

Just curious.

Tucker

[Sean Reynolds]

111. Probably shoplift them.

If it were for food, I'd go down to the local church and eat there.

[AlienGirl]

113. So you'd rather steal than beg?

I have an ethical problem with stealing; I find begging less dishonorable than stealing.

Tucker

[Spider Jerusalem]

82. Well, you know...

the homeless are usually homeless thanks to problems they can't get help for, and got there thanks to a lifetime of bad choices and, in a lot of cases, a head full of bad wiring (which is usually not their fault...schizophrenia is not a character flaw, you know). As to the bad choices...well, I tend to think that but for random chance, I could very well have been one of those people. So might any of us. No one asks for the hand they're dealt; we each just play it the best we can...and if you've got nothing but deuces and treys, you're not going to come out a winner.

And considering the cuts in social services funding over the past few decades, most homeless people with mental and substance abuse issues probably couldn't get help if they wanted to; too expensive, too much of a burden on the taxpayer, all that. And they can't really get jobs, without a place to live; the best they could hope for in the way of gainful employment is day labour that pays cash under the table, and if you've been sleeping rough for a while, you're not likely to get picked out of a work line, just on the basis of looks.

Homeless shelters are not fun places; rape, beating and robbery is fairly common, and it's understandable that a lot of people with nowhere else to go would rather find a hidden spot off an alleyway or near a warm-air grate. I probably would, in that situation.

And as to panhandling...well, being handed change or a few bucks or maybe a couple of smokes by someone who just passes it over without looking you in the eye is probably less shaming for some than being smothered in piety by well-intentioned people at churches and shelters; when you don't even have your pride left, you can still choose just how far you're willing to degrade yourself.

And since you have a Marx avatar there, maybe you've heard this one: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Don't know about you, but I usually assume that someone who's living on the street probably needs my pocket-change more than I do.

[Sean Reynolds]

86. They need a roof and food more than anything.

And that means our social programs NEED to work around Marx's belief.

I just don't think giving them 25 cents will provide what they need.

[ulysses]

95. and since our social programs

*don't* work around Marx, you're going to forego your quarter.

Give it a rest.

[Sean Reynolds]

97. Give what a rest?

I never said I didn't give money.

I did say the situation angers me.

It angers me that these people are put in this situation and that by giving them that quarter it does nothing to better their position. Right or wrong, that's how I feel.

So I try, instead of giving to panhandlers, to tell them about how the Cathedral down the street gives away free food and clothing for the homeless.

I will not give THAT a rest....

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

109. ah,

but I'm not done with you. :)

You started this shit. Show up, son.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

99. Whole purpose of the thread, wasn't it?

x(

[Spider Jerusalem]

98. Or maybe they need therapy, medication and rehab.

Giving someone a roof to sleep under and food to eat when they're fundamentally and deeply broken isn't going to fix them, isn't going to make them better; it's just going to put them out of sight. And sweeping the problem under the rug won't make it go away, you know. Some of those people probably WERE in long-term care in mental institutions, until funding cuts hit; you tell me, where are they supposed to go? And do you really think a schizophrenic, or an alcoholic with the DTs, is going to get anything at a shelter except kicked out on the street for causing problems or beaten by the other people there? It's not quite as simple as you seem to think.

[Sean Reynolds]

104. I think that works, too.

The problem isn't just black and white. There's varying degrees of issues at hand here. We not only need to fix our economic system, we need to fix our social system and our medical system (health care). It doesn't just end with housing and food.

But it can start there.

[AlienGirl]

112. Sean, what *would* you do

if you were four days away from payday, had already gotten all the loans you could from family and friends, and your period started? (Okay, assuming you were female.) Bear in mind that pads aren't free, you need them desperately or everypiece of clothing you own will be ruined, and you can't buy pads with food stamps.

Just curious.

Tucker

[crispini]

116. "I just don't think giving them 25 cents will provide what they need. "

You're still trying to "fix" them.

In a way, it's not up to you to determine what they need. You're getting all judgemental on them. Give, don't give -- but let that all go, with the anger and worry. They're just people. When you give, let it be with a joyous and light heart. Ya know?

[ellie]

106. I always give money to the homeless

because Jesus said, "What you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto me."

[Terran]

115. I can state with a great deal of assurance that

there are not enough resources, anywhere, to take care of all the homeless people. If there were, they wouldn't be homeless. There may, sometimes, be enough to put an emergency shelter roof over someone's head and to feed them adequately, but that's not living as you and I understand it. So I don't blame anybody who's without a home for begging in the streets.

[Bluerthanblue]

125. oh i disagree-

we have ABUNDANT resources, but our 'judgements' and 'priorities' are against helping the needy.
We are the 'self made man' society.- The 'everyone has a chance' (maybe once true, but no longer) America.

If we put the money that is HOARDED by folks like Cheney, Trump, Gates and the like, folks who avoid paying the 'true' taxes through overseas 'hide outs'- and the trillions wasted on 'security' and 'star-wars' military ridiculousness into feeding, housing, and caring for people, we could, i believe care for the entire world-
i read that the energy in the fertilizers used on golf courses in america, could be used to grow enough food to feed ALL those who are dying of starvation on earth- that is kind of an awesome, and deeply depressing statistic.

We have the 'resources'- we don't have the self-lessness. Or the self love to do that. we hoard, and need so much, because our deepest needs are unmet, and we fill that hole with stuff, things, excercise, busywork, food, drugs, sex, excesses of any and all kinds in hopes that we can feel whole.

sounds like babble, but it is closer to the FULL truth than even i like to know.

[MrScorpio]

126. This is pretty callous of you - I know that you've already got an earful

So, I'm not going to slamm you too hard.

I'd just want you to do something for me.

But what you ought to think about walking in their shoes for a moment.

You know, perhaps they weren't always homeless. At one time, they probably did have homes, but they ran into the reality about America: The fact thats it's pretty easy to fall off the precipice.

These people are living a hand to mouth existence, and shelters, handouts and shelters are no substitute for earning a living wage and living in an affordable society.

What we need is a nation that values a more equitable standard of living, not greed and a wider chasm between rich and poor.



I'd had hope that your association with DU would have helped you understand this.

[BikeWriter]

128. Sarge, thanks for your post...

Threads like this one remind me of the bad old days. :(

[BikeWriter]

127. Excuse me? IMHO, your post is insulting and ungrateful!

VA Hospitals do not provide veterans with all their needs.

[greeneyedpookie]

129. Just an insight

Just pointed out to me, (by my wonderful hubby.) How can we know that these people are actually homeless. How do we know if they are actually a Con Aritst. How do we know if this dude or dudette are not acutally live in the upper class and make more money than we do at begging???
True story: A man in Phoenix goes out, dressed in homeless clothes, begs for money. Makes a grand and goes home to a house, worth more than the normal person can afford, has a BMW in the drive.. How many people have given this man a buck to make it???
Think about it. Think of what the OP stated, he offered $20 to have the
guy wash his car?? And the dude didn't take it??? Makes one wonder!!!

GEP

[AlienGirl]

130. I think that's an urban legend

How many upper-middle-class people do you know of who would go beg for money? What if someone they knew drove by and saw them?

If you believe this is real, I invite you to put it to the test: Put on scruffy clothes, make a sign, and see if you can raise a grand. You can even donate it to a homeless shelter if you feel bad about taking money you don't really need.

On edit: And every reason you come up with for not wanting to do it, even as an experiment, is another reason the upper-middle-class Beemer-owner also would have not to do it.

Tucker

[BikeWriter]

132. Hee hee hee! Good suggestion!

[Bluerthanblue]

135. i think you are right, it

seems to me it was a movie plot, but i can't remember which.-
Or maybe a stretch on the howard Hughes story??-
At any rate, even if someone did this, they'd be the extreem exception.

[BikeWriter]

138. One of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's story plots....

It may be "The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge."

[Spider Jerusalem]

140. "The Man With The Twisted Lip"...

Mr Neville St Clair, fooling his wife into thinking he's a respectable City biusinessman whilst begging all day disguised as a cripple...and Stephen King used it, too, in a story called "Blind Wille" (which is pretty decent, and even rather moving in some places; the protagonist in this case is a Vietnam veteran who has some rather twisted personal reasons for doing what he's doing...)

[BikeWriter]

143. Give the man a cigar. :-)

[BikeWriter]

142. Doyle's plot, but it was "The Man with the Twisted Lip"

[BikeWriter]

131. There may very well be con artists among the homeless...

That would not cause me to pass judgement on all the homeless as being thieves. A veteran could tell the difference very quickly by asking the units they served in.

[hfojvt]

154. there are alot of things involved

My brother told me about a guy who held a "will work 4 food" sign down the road from a hotel he managed. I asked if he gave the guy a job and his reply was that "he makes about $70 a day sitting there with that sign." Not a grand, but at the time of the story I made about $50 for eight hours of work. Still, this was in Fargo, and I wonder what he did in the winter.

There are issues about cleaning a car. Not washing it, but cleaning it - inside. Do I know how to clean it? Maybe not, and maybe I do not want to admit that. What if I put my dirty hand on the seat and make it dirtier? I could get beaten up or yelled at/humiliated. What if it is just a scam to get me over to the car where I can be abducted? What if I work for half an hour and the guy says I did not do a good enough job and he's not going to pay me? $20 for cleaning a car sounds too good to be true, and if it sounds too good to be true, it often is.

[In_The_Wind]

133. it's not always that easy

She calls out to the man on the street
"Sir, can you help me?
It's cold and I've nowhere to sleep,
Is there somewhere you can tell me?"

He walks on, doesn't look back
He pretends he can't hear her
Starts to whistle as he crosses the street
She's embarrassed to be there

Oh, think twice, 'cause it's another day for
You and me in paradise
Oh, think twice, 'cause it's another day for you,
You and me in paradise

She calls out to the man on the street
He can see she's been crying
She's got blisters on the soles of her feet
She can't walk but she's trying

Oh, think twice,'cause it's another day for
You and me in paradise
Oh, think twice, it's just another day for you,
You and me in paradise

(Just think about it)

Oh lord, is there nothing more anybody can do
Oh lord, there must be something you can say

You can tell from the lines on her face
You can see that she's been there
Probably been moved on from every place
But she didn't fit in there

Oh, think twice,'cause it's another day for
You and me in paradise
Oh think twice, it's just another day for you,
You and me in paradise

It's just another day for you and me in paradise
It's just another day for you and me in paradise

[BikeWriter]

136. Okay, you did it, Joan...

Now I'm crying. A most forceful post, Dear.
Thank you.

[In_The_Wind]

139. BikeWriter

I'm too tired to fight fair.




It's just too easy for some to look the other way when people are suffering

especially

when I know we (as a country) can do better!

[BikeWriter]

145. Yes'm, my PTSD group therapy meeting is tomorrow...

Seeing homeless veterans berated upsets me no end. I know some of them. Thanks again, Sweety. :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

147. Upsets me, too.

My uncle (well, aunt's ex-husband...still my uncle, far as I'm concerned) would be one of 'em, if not for being lucky enough (hah!) to've gotten a decent settlement for asbestos exposure suffered as a construction worker; going on 40 years, and he still drinks far more than he should, still wakes up at night in cold sweats, still has occasional flashbacks..which is an unnerving thing to see; something triggers one, and he'll react unpredictably...dropping to the floor and yelling in Vietnamese..."Dong lai!" and "Charlie in the treeline! Where the FUCK is the captain!"...that I remember from the few times I've seen it happen...and I can relate; I have PTSD myself, as a result of some unpleasantness that happened in my younger days; not severe, and I'm pretty good about getting away from potential trigger situations, but it's definitely no joke. I advise anyone who thinks so to try living with it.

[BikeWriter]

151. It sounds as if he has one of the recurring nightmares...

I won't bore you with mine, but after nearly forty years of the same one, I had a different one a few months ago. It was almost a relief.

[Heidi]

144. Thank you, Joan.

Not everyone is as protected from life's realities as I am; thank you for reminding me. Truth be told, many of us are less than one paycheck away from homelessnes, and still we don't want to be bothered by the "unwashed." :cry:

Circle of Steel
By Gordon Lightfoot

Rows of lights in a circle of steel
Where you place your bets on a great big wheel
High windows flickerin’ down through the snow
A time you know
Sights and sounds of the people goin’ ’round
Everybody’s in step with the season
A child is born to a welfare case
Where the rats run around like they own the place
The room is chilly, the building is old
That’s how it goes
The doctor’s found on his welfare round
And he comes and he leaves on the double

Deck the halls was the song they played
In the flat next door where they shout all day
She tips her gin bottle back till it’s gone
The child is strong
A week, a day, they will take it away
For they know about all her bad habits

Christmas dawns and the snow lets up
And the sun hits the handle of her heirloom cup
She hides her face in her hands for a while
Says look here child
Your father’s pride was his means to provide
And he’s servin’ three years for that reason

Rows of lights in a circle of steel
Where you place your bets on a great big wheel
High windows flickerin’ down through the snow
A time you know
Sights and sounds of the people goin’ ’round
Everybody’s in step with the season

[BikeWriter]

146. Thank you, Dear. Your's is another moving post.

[In_The_Wind]

149. these are troubled times we live in

I don't understand ... how anyone can turn a deaf ear,a cold shoulder to the needs of another!


the only way . . . is to lead by example and most DUers are compassionate enough to do just that



my friend

[SammyWinstonJack]

137. Here is what I believe, a hand up is not a hand out.

And if what I give to someone standing by the side of the road helps them, so be it. If they are scamming me and I am not aware, so be it. What ever I can afford to give them whether they are scamming me or they need it and use it for drugs or alcohol, whatever, that's their choice and their conscious. I think you maybe cold hearted.

[BikeWriter]

148. My VFW officers were speaking last week of a Family...

they donated money to who had moved out of state for a job. The man had sent a money order in repayment and a donation to our fund.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RoyGBiv]

150. They annoy me too ...

I am highly annoyed by homeless people. In this country, where 20 years ago I ccould drive my $25K sports car my grandmother bought me as a graduation present after just coming back from a store where I spent over $1000 from a collection of graduation presents on a new computer while on my way to eat at the fanciest steak house in town, the cost of which will be paid by another group of relatives and friends as yet another graduation present, it annoys me incredibly that I, by accident of my birth, have such good friends and good family who can afford and are willing to give me these things while that guy over there, for whatever reason, has come a point in his life so low that he feels compelled to stand on the side of the road begging for whatever I have left in my pocket.

In fact, it pisses me right the hell off that not one, not two, not three, not even four, but at least five local leaders of churches in the area drive a Lexus, that they work for congregations that have managed to raise thousands upon thousands of dollars to build new "wings" to their house of worship or to gild their crosses, that at least one of these churches was able to raise the money and organize the people to go to a mass rally in support of putting a man to death while there's a teenage girl that stands on a street corner near one of these churches each day, every day, offering to sell herself so she can buy food to eat or crank to forget while the people in this church don't offer to help but work dilligently to send her to jail.

I am infuriated that I, as a taxpayer, have helped to fund billions of dollars to kill people in nearly every corner of the planet, to steal their land, and help some fat idiot who already has three houses, twenty cars, and a plane or two to make a few hundred million more for his personal bank account while there's a guy who rummages through the trash dumpster of my local apartment complex looking for something to keep him alive in this horrible world one more day.

In short, your irritation is directed at the wrong target, buddy.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

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[EstimatedProphet]

156. Locking

Flamefest