I need a Bible verse...

[AWD]

...is there a Bible verse that places man ahead of woman in the chain of command?

I want to show how mysognistic the Good Book can be, but I have little knowledge in this specific issue of it.

on edit - it's for someone who claims that "christians have ALWAYS placed man and woman equally".

[seventhson]

1. Paul in the new testament is a likley suspect.

I think he was a Roman plant anyway

[srpantalonas]

2. there are plenty...

Ephesians 5:23--
For the husband is the head of the wide, even as Christ is the head of the curch, and he is the savior of the body.

Ephesians 5:24--
Therefore as the curch is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

[candy331]

15. I Corinthians 11: 3

" the head of a woman is the man" Had to hear this on a weekly basis some 3-5 times when I was in a mind controlling religion.

[CBHagman]

20. I know what you mean.

It's funny that the same people who are in a huge hurry to tell us that God has placed the man in command and that the wife must submit are not in a hurry to mention the verse about the husband loving the wife as Christ loves the church. Anyone who hasn't read those verses needs to check them out pronto. It's a self-sacrificing, nurturing love. On its most frivolous level, I can say, "If Jesus could cook breakfast, you guys certainly can."

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Well, if your intent is merely to prooftext in order to eisegete,

then perhaps it's worth rethinking your motivation. I can also say with utter surety that the Bible is very non-misognysistic, and celebrates equality of the genders, and equality of races, and etc.

Here's the place to go to for looking up Bible verses, though. VERY handy:


http://bible.gospelcom.net

Here's the big one: Eph 5:22-24

And some others:
Colossians 3:17-19
Titus 2:3-5
1 Peter 3:1-2 and also 6-7

[AWD]

4. What I know on the topic...

...is that woman is usually responsible for the bad things that happen in the Bible.

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. Oh, sure

that happens a lot. Sadly, but true.

but if one reads the words of jesus - and those are the most important ones - you don't get that at all.

[roughsatori]

10. It would be good if all of us watched for our own eisegetical tendencies

I agree with you. I thought of a few verses that would help make the original posters point, but actually felt it was irresponsible to post them in this context.

I actually had started a post and put in some Timothy and others when I decided it would be an inappropriate thing for me to do without some explanation, context, and refutation.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. I also had thought of not posting, but then realized,

hell, I could also offer just as many to show that the Bible ios polytheistic, racist, classist, hatefilled, violent, genocidal, and altogether evil.

So I thought, "Well, the verses are in there; can't hide 'em. Let's be honest about it."

but you're right - eisegesis is terrible. ONe must let the text speak for itself, and not have an idea or point to prove, then go searching for text to match it.

[roughsatori]

13. Yes hiding the negative in The Bible is not illuminating either

It is just that to list them without giving context (including how some words are incorrectly translated, or as you indicate are refuted by the Birth of Jesus (to a Believer as well as to one looking at the Book from a thematic stand-point).

I did not mean that it was inappropriate for anyone else. Just that it would be inappropriate for me to do so because of the way I relate to Scripture. To bandy it about lightly feels disrespectful when I do it, so I try not to as that is a feeling I don't like.

There is a book I just finished rereading: "The Literary Guide to the Bible" edited by Robert Alter and Frank Kermode. It is a collection of scholarly essays that approach the books of the Bible from a Art and Literature approach--not from a "God" or "Religion" way of examination. It is quite wonderful to read of the poetic structure of much of the original texts. You might enjoy reading a chapter or two.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. I haven't read that, but we did a lot of literary criticism in seminary

I had a class on Hebrew poetry, as well, which was about translating psalms and delving into the poetic structure. Wonderful stuff!

I like literary criticism. And all the other forms of biblical criticism. Funny thing is, the fundies also have their own form of critical insight (though it isn't very critical, and isn't very insightful), but they won't admit it. They call it "reading the plain meaning of the text without bias or spin or anything else like that". Very dishonest.

You might also check out Literary Criticism of the Old Testament (Guides to Biblical Scholarship. Old Testament) by Norman C. Habel, J. Coert Rylaarsdam
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800601769/qid=1068468475/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/103-4542275-2815859?v=glance&s=books

(and the other books in that series)

And
Rhetorical Criticism: Context, Method, and the Book of Jonah (Guides to Biblical Scholarship, Old Testament) by Phyllis Trible, Gene M. Tucker (Phyllis was one of my OT professors, and often received applause, sometimes standing ovations, after her lectures; I also suggest her book "Texts of Terror" which is brilliant)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800627989/ref=pd_sim_books_4/103-4542275-2815859?v=glance&s=books

[regnaD kciN]

5. Ephesians 5:21-24

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

Of course, most non-fundie Christians realize that Paul was just a follower of Christ, not Christ himself, and that thus his words are a mixture of divine inspiration and human limitations, in which sometimes the latter tends to predominate. Paul was actually not particularly backward for a first-century Jew educated in the Pharisical school, and few non-Jewish sources of that time were much more enlightened, either. On the other hand, in another one of his letters, Paul seems to have grasped God's message a bit more clearly.

There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. -- Galatians 3:28

[Cleita]

6. Read anything by St. Paul.

That chops it down to the epistles in the New Testament. You can read it in a few hours.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Here's another

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not (do not allow) a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. And this one

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted (given liberty) unto them to speak ; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

[regnaD kciN]

16. Most scholars think that this passage was added by a later editor...

...for two reasons: 1) The initial sentence construction is very clumsy, and looks like someone other that Paul added a few lines using a different Greek writing style, and 2) a passage a few chapters earlier (11:5) spoke of women having to cover their heads when they spoke in church. It seems odd that Paul would order any woman to cover her head when speaking in church, if he was then going to say that women couldn't speak in church, period.

[Liberal Veteran]

17. I think when it comes to Paul's epistles....

...who the hell knows what was his and what wasn't. That's why I always get so bent out of shape when so-called Christians spend more time in the Old Testament and the Epistles than in the Gospels. I think we'd have all been better off they had just decided the bible ended with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

[kodi]

12. "Me Tarzan, you Jane" from the Gospel of the Caucasians Chapter 3 Verse 6

i went to a very wierd bible study class.

[raysr]

14. Bible Verse

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" Saint Zimmerman

[Nikia]

19. Paul was sexist, Jesus was a feminist

Paul evidently had a problem with women speaking in church and seemed to think that they should always be below men.
Jesus had several female followers who seemed to be the only ones around for the crucifiction and visiting his grave. He talked to and healed female strangers in a time where men did not speak to female strangers unless they were visiting a prostitute. He spoke up for the woman who was to be stoned for adultery. He said that men should not divorce their wives except for marital unfaithfulness in a time when a husband could divorce his wife for any reason in a time where women replied upon their husbands for support. He never said anything about women being lower than men.