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What's a "rear admiral?" And why aren't there any "forward admirals?"

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:38 PM
Original message
What's a "rear admiral?" And why aren't there any "forward admirals?"
And please, no cheap shot gay jokes . . .
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. A doctor who treats herrorhoids?
:shrug:
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rear Admirals are in charge of the entire fleet
of ships. I think. All the other vessels that go out into an attack formation go first and the rear admiral is at the ship furthest to the rear even though he/she is guiding the attack.

I think that's how its set up anyway.
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qwertyMike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well in the old days . . .in the Navy
there weren't any women on board.
And the Admiral . . .well ... he WAS the admiral needed a bit of nookie sometimes.
Debates rage to this day whether the Rear Admiral pitched or caught.

In the British Navy he caught of course. Just like school days.

Friend of mine was in the Royal Navy. They called him/er the Duchess of Dublin. Frequently.
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lynndew2 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not to be gay
Front admirals(male,female) STILL RULE THE ROOST.
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Wwagsthedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. There are Vice Admirals. Are they forward?
n/t
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Rear Admiral = Major General
The term Admiral is believed to come from the Arabic Emir-al-bahr or "commander of the sea," by way of the Italian and subsequently the French.

Rear Admiral is a term dating from the birth of the modern Royal Navy in Elizabethan times, and means, quite sensibly, the Admiral in charge of running things at the rear of the fleet. The rank wasn't introduced into the US Navy until the Southern Rebellion.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. Yes, technically... but not really... Major Generals are in charge
of Divisions, but Rear Admirals are not in command of fleets in a full-scale dust up.
That would be Vice Admirals.

Rear Admirals have had, for the most part... task forces, which is not really a fleet, since it does not combine air and land bases which a fleet does.

Does that make sense?

For instance, Commander, Seventh Fleet has a bunch of ships, airbases and shore stations (and Marines) under his command. The groups of ships doing different things have Rear Admirals in command, or a Commodore.

Put another way, Commodores and Rear Admirals are operational and tactical, and Vice Admirals and Admirals are support and stratigic.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. Rear Adm = 2 stars
Adm = 4 stars.

The other services (Army, AF, and the quasi-Navy Marines) have 4 generals:


1 Star = Brigadier General

2 Star = Major General (I had a cuz who was a 2-star in the Texas Guard)

3 Star = Lt. General

4 Star = General

Am I right or wrong on this, fellow military vets? Also, where does "General of the Army" fit in? Was that Eisenhower?
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Eisenhower was a General of the Army
as were George Marshall, Douglas MacArthur, Henry Arnold and Omar Bradley, and no one since.

Grant, Sherman, Sheridan and Pershing carried the same title, but only wore four stars.

The Navy equivalent of a General of the Army is a Fleet Admiral, of which there have been four: Nimitz, Leahy, King and Halsey.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Grant, Sherman and Sheridan had 3 stars, no?
and technically, so did Lee, Johnstone and ??? name escapes me now
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Grant was a Lt. General
The rank was revived in March 1864 so Grant would clearly outrank everyone else when Lincoln put him in command of all the Union armies. As a major (2 star) general he had less seniority than a number of other officers. This included some politicians like Ben Butler and Nathaniel Banks who were commissioned general in 1861 as Lincoln was building a political coalition to put down the rebellion. Their military skills turned out to be somewhat lacking.

The confederacy was a lot freer handing out stars, with ranks of Lt General and (full) General (4 stars). And they had their share of disputes over seniority too.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. General of the Army...
would be our equivalent of Field Marshal. (But we only have Mashall Fields...)

There is the rank of General of the Armies-- 10 stars, but it's an honorific, and the only one I'm aware of who had it was Pershing.

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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. General of the Armies of the United States
was Pershing's official title. It did not carry ten stars; there was no official designation as to how many stars he could wear at that rank. In practice he wore four. And the U.S. does not promote generals to five-star rank except in times of war. I mean, official war. Not police actions, not wars for the liberation of oil, not peacekeeping missions, you get the idea.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Other armies use the term "Marshall", but Marshall Marshall was too funny
(Sort of like Major Major from Catch-22) So they created the title "General of the Army". That is how my brother explained it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Navy doesn't have any one-star Admirals (aka Commodores)
which creates a problem when they attend the war college they think they are superior to their counterparts in the other services, invariably one star Brigadier Generals.

This is a sore issue among the brass!
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Yes, they do... they used to be called Commodores
but are now called, believe it or not, Rear Admiral, lower half
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. You go to the War College before you get your first star
These days they like to send lieutenant colonels to the War College.

You read these guys' bios and they're pretty similar: "Colonel Smith is a graduate of the United States Military Academy, the Quartermaster Officers Basic Course, Quartermaster Officers Advanced Course, Combined Arms and Services Staff School, Command and General Staff College and the War College." Sometimes there will be a "Ranger School" or "Parachutist School" in there (now that the airborne mafia has taken hold, most officers above major are airborne qualified) but everyone goes to the same schools.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. so they go ordering the Brigadier Generals to do pushups and stuff?
"Drop and give me ten, you maggot!!!"
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. However, the Rank of "Commodore" Was Revived in Vietnam
Hadn't been used since the Civil War. Vietnam Commodore was in charge of 7 ships.
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scottcsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's Navy rank
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 12:08 AM by scottcsmith
Navy flag officers hold the rank of admiral. At the bottom, with one star, is Rear Admiral (Lower-Half), followed by the two-star Rear Admiral (Upper-Half), the three-star Vice-Admiral, and the four-star Admiral. Anyway, the previous poster who said the Navy doesn't have one-star officers is wrong. In fact, Bush has recently promoted several Captains to the rank of Rear Admiral (Lower-Half).

I can't say I remember what duties fall under those ranks, but I know it has to do with commanding certain groups or organizations or fleets. For instance, the Navy's Chief of Information (CHINFO, think of him as the Navy's top PR guy) holds the rank of Rear Admiral (lower-half). If you are a public affairs officer in the Navy (PR people) that's as high as you can go, and since only one CHINFO is appointed at a time, most Navy PAOs retire with the rank of Captain (equivilant to the Army rank of Colonel).

Why Rear Admiral and not Forward Admiral? I don't know. Within the rank structure for enlisted personnel is the rank of "Petty Officer." But when you're a "Petty Officer" you're not actually an officer. It all sounds confusing, doesn't it?

What's worse is when you start out in the Navy with the rank of Seaman. That just lends itself to too many jokes. Especially when you're a Seaman Recruit.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. The rank of Commodore was retired years ago, ...
and Capt jumped straight to Rear Admiral. Commodore, (which sounds a lot better than Rear Admiral(Lower Half), was only activated during a time of war, much like a Brevet Brigadier or Major General during the Civil war. Custer was a Brevet Major General during the Civil War, but was reduced to permanent rank of Lt. Col. after the war. He went into Montana, and the Little Big Horn as a Lt. Col., and got wiped out, as we all know.

The rank structure has taken quite a few turns over the years, and right up to the turn of the century, it was relatively easy to get rank very quickly, if you could raise your own regiment. TR raised a USV Cavalry regiment in NY, and instantaeously became a LT. Col., but most of his horses were left in the states, so much for a big time cavalry.

Alas......I write too much because of the recent caffeine intake at this time of night. Guess I should just tune down the keyboard.

:bounce:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. 1986 is when the rank of Commodore was replaced by RADM (LH)
1986--Subsec. (c). Pub. L. 99-661, as amended by Pub. L. 100-26, substituted ``rear admiral (lower half)'' for ``commodore''.

TITLE 10--ARMED FORCES
Subtitle C--Navy and Marine Corps
PART I--ORGANIZATION


http://www.chaplain.navy.mil/Attachments/Title10Sec5150.pdf
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. You are right
but that was the way it was when I was in. When did they create the RADM Lower Half?
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. After the Commodores sang disco
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Serious answer...
Commodores were re-designated RADM (Lower Half) in 1986 because no command wanted a Commodore. "Don't send me that Commodore, I want a real Admiral." The only way you could get a job if you were a Commodore is if you knew someone from when you were a Commander or Captain who would take you and groom you to become an Admiral.

They did a lot of thinking about this--do we call these people "Commodore Admirals" (preserving the historical title) or "Rear Admirals, Lower Half" (admitting that no matter what they hung on the back of "Commodore," the guy would still be a Commodore). Finally they went with RADM (LH), which was good.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. So they got a more embarrassing title...
Seems to me that the Navy wanted something with "admiral" in it to properly differentiate between stars and lower ranks.

The other services have well-defined differences between company, field, and general officers, and that "Commodore" just didn't fit in.

Fitting, though, that the flag officer of commodes is now the lower half.

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peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. When shit start rolling down hill…
It usually starts with the rear….
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. Heh, okay, got an education here . . . thanks
EOM
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. historically the rear Admiral was on the last vessel
And when the formation reversed direction he'd be in command. Thus the "Admiral" is the forward Admiral.


(I've taken this explanation from German "Konteradmiral", but I think it's the same. However I've seen the explanation that the Rear-Admiral was in command of the rear division of a Fleet)
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. Old, old naval history...
we're talking spanish armada and ships of the line...

There used to be three fleets in a navy that went into battle: the vanguard, the main, and the rear. The least important of the three was the rear and was commanded by the least senior admiral, the rear admiral. Why the main admiral and vanguard admiral hasn't stuck around I don't know.
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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Here's a good synopsis of the term
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. Captain of the poop deck
:bounce:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
33. Some information on Military Ranks (mostly Army)
Edited on Thu Nov-13-03 04:44 PM by happyslug
The history of Military ranks is interesting itself, For examples The general of a Roman Legion was a Ducus, which became the Duke of the Middle ages (At the same time the name of the Commander of a Roman Cohort became the Count of the Middle Ages).

During the Middle ages the Position of Captain was introduced, he commanded a Company. During the 1600s Companies started to be organized into columns, the Spanish name for this became our Colonel.

When I was in the Service, everybody wonders why as a Major above a Lieutenant, while a Major General was below a Lieutenant General? The reason was historical, in the 1700s, the term Major referred to the Officer in charge of supply at any level of command, thus a Sargent-Major was in charge Battalion Supply, the Major-Captain was his boss (the Term Major-Captain became Major during the 1700s), while the Major General was in charge of the Army’s supply system. The term Lieutenant referred to the assistant to a more senior officer, thus the Senior Lieutenant-Captain became a first Lieutenant, and th e Second Lieutenant to the Captain became a Second Lieutenant (Some units even had Third Lieutenants in the early 1800s).

Now some ranks have disappeared over the years, Coronets for example. Some ranks have cease to exist except in Military Academies (Cadet for Example). Prior to the mid-1800s a Coronet was Second Lieutenant in a Calvary Troop, while a Ensign was the same rank in an Infantry Company (Both Troops and Company consisted of about 100 officer and men, except one was Calvary the other infantry. Artillery units equivalent was “Battery”).

Another rank that has disappeared was “Musician” . While it sounds like a member of the band, it was not. They may play the fife, but they main job was as “file fillers” in combat i.e. as people fell do to wounds, the Musicians stepped in and replaced them in the line of Infantry. In list of veterans from the Revolution you will see people with this rank, it had disappaered by the Civil War.

The adoption of the Division and Corp during the Napoleonic wars lead to the present set of Ranks. Prior to that date units above Regiment were organized on an ad hoc basis. Thus ranks prior to 1800 varied widely, but stabilized during the 1792-1815 Wars of the French Revolution and the adoption of the modern Division based army. With this adoption, the position of Musician, Coronet, Ensign (Through it would last a few more years than the rest), Major-Colonel (Like a Major, except of Colonels not Captains and as such tied in with formation of Armies, the position was merged into the Major-General position).

Sometime ranks vary based on history of that country, for example y the Time of the American Revolution the British Army had adopted the Brigade, thus Brigadier in the British Army. When the US army adopted the term it adopted it as Brigader-General to show it was a General Rank (and based on how the Navy treated Commodore, these one stars are often called Major General, lower half).

While it is while known that Field- Marshall of the British and German Armies is the same as the US General of the Army (and that General Marshall who was to be the first 5 stars just hated the concept of being called Marshall Marshall) other ranks also have had different names in different countries AND service.

In the US Army a Private first Class is a E-3, the same as a US Marine Lance Corporal (Lance is a French term which is the same as Lieutenant, thus a Lance Corporal is a Lieutenant to a Corporal). A Marine Private First Class is a E-2, or the same as a Private (Often called a Private E-2) in the US Army. A US Marine Private is a E-1, the same as a US Private E-1 (often called a Recruit or Private recruit).

Colonel - General of the Russian and German Armies is the rank just below a full general the German and Russian Armies. Often called the same as a Lieutenant General in the US Army (with the position of Soviet/ German Lieutenant General become the same as a US Major General, the Position of Soviet/German Major General being the same as a US Brigadier General). Some armies have both Brigadier-Generals and Colonel Generals. This brings me to the issue of rank equivalence.

Remember just because two armies have the same name for a rank does not mean it is the same rank. Be carful. This is complicated by the Soviet System where many of the functions of a US NCO was done by a Commissioned officer. Thus at times a Soviet Junior Lieutenant may be the same as a US Sargent First Class (both doing the same function). The Soviet preferred to promote people into officer ranks when they became professional soldiers, unlike the US Army which has a long tradition of Professional NCOs.

As I said above, ranks can differ between armies, I have seen Roman Centurions referred to the same as US Army Sergeants and US Army Captains (And both are correct, a Centurion was BOTH and neither), but the Roman Officer Corp (or want we would call the Officer Corp) only started with the Tribunes, the equivalent of Field Grade Officers in the US Army (Majors and Colonels) but these Officers also did some of the command duties at the Centurion level (thus also performed what the US Army calls Company level Functions). The Army of Rome reflected this difference, as does the difference between the Soviet and US Army. Thus to truly see which rank is the same as others you have to look at what the officer is DOING as while as what his rank is called.


Ranks of Various Countries:
http://www.luther.ca/~dave7cnv/military/militar5.html

History of US Navy Enlisted Ranks:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq78-1.htm

NATO Ranks Codes:
http://www.geocities.com/german_jag/ranks.html

For the United Kingdom:
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/stats/ukds/2002/chap2tab229frame.htm1

For Soviet Rank Boards see:
http://www.sovietarmy.com/ranks/rank_system.html
http://www-math.mit.edu/~igorvp/Russia/Other/Pogony/pogony.html

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WeirdSceneGoldmine Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. REMF
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
moved from side to side
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. I might be wayyy off
but isnt that because the ship is conrtolled from the rear of the ship, rather than the front?

Just a guess - feel free to call me a moran for postulating incorrectly.
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