"I'm far left of most DUers" WTF?!??

[Blue-Jay]

I was going to post my question as a reply in another thread, but I feel it deserves it's own.

"I'm far left of most DUers" What exactly does that mean? Are we rating each other on how far "left" we consider ourselves?

For the record, I'm proud to be a liberal. Damn proud. I want health care for all. I don't mind paying a little more in taxes if that means that our citizens don't go hungry. I take "promote the general welfare" seriously and literally. I want the same basic rights for ALL of us, regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. I believe that (I can't believe that I'm going to quote Spock...Spock, for shit's sake!) the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

That being said.....

Maybe I'm not "left"-enough for some. I eat meat. Does the fact that I love a good hamburger make me shuffle a little to the right? I own guns. Sure, I'd prefer a world where guns were not available, but I live in the real world. People should be able to hunt if they do it responsibly. (I don't have the heart to do it myself, but I've enjoyed some kickass deer and elk meat and I want some more) I hate the idea of "elective" abortions. The only thing I hate worse is the government being able to tell women that they can't have them. (likewise, I'd never defile an American flag, but I support anyone else's right to do so)

In the interest of brevity, I won't blather on about every single idea that I hold dear. I guess my question is:

What makes you a "better" kind of liberal than me? Perhaps "better" is the wrong word, but on occasion I see a certain smug satisfaction in people when they claim that they're "farther to the left". What gives?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Great post.

Sorry that's my only response

[Blue-Jay]

7. Don't worry,

I'll go back to posting inane smartass quips for my next 700 posts or so. ;)

[Padraig18]

2. Thank you!

I couldn't have phrased my own rant on this subject better. :thumbsup:

[youngred]

3. Its not better necessarily

some are further left than others. We have a number of Socialists, Anarchists and Communists, which by definition puts them further left than the majority of DUers. We also have a number of Greens and far lefters within the party. They too (while more common) are more left than a lot of DUers. We have liberals, and moderate liberals and moderates. ALl across the spectrum. it doesn't make one better or right, but it can be frustrating to be an outlyer in any community.

I agree with most everything you said though all that said

[DrWeird]

4. There are some here at DU who are even more conservative than...

Joe Lieberman and think everybody to the left of them is a crazy, commie, baby-eating hippie.

Pass the california cheeseburger.

[Uzybone]

5. if your not wearing sack cloth

driving a 76 VW, and eating lentils for breakfast lunch and dinner, your not left enough for some.

[Forkboy]

9. oh I see

now you centrists hate lentils too!!! :evilgrin:

[Kamika]

6. I think we rate how far right we are aswell

And don't you worry I'm sure i'm more right then you are :D

So I guess I'm wrong

[CanuckAmok]

8. as usual, Phil Ochs has the answer...

Love Me, I'm a Liberal -- Phil Ochs, 1966


I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R. (Dykes of the American Revolution!)
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democtratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[salinen]

10. all left

hey you are a good leftie. and everyone here is a good leftie. as long as you're not voting for bush, you're a great leftie.

[Blue-Jay]

11. I think that there are *some*, if not *many* that would disagree.

It's those self-appointed "far lefties" that I'd like to hear from.

Note to "far lefties": I'm not belittling or attacking by any means. I'm just curious what YOU think makes you so deliciously more "left". I guess my problem is the matter of semantics that we use too often.

Does "farther left" = "better liberal"?

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

12. Does "farther left" = "better liberal"?

Not at all. Those that slip too far left often expect more from those that give than they receive. It's too easy to be far left and let others carry the load than to work toward equality and a balanced workload.

[Forkboy]

13. Why do you say

that those on the far left are letting others carry the load?

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

15. Because the extreme FAR left is too far left

If a system can be abused it WILL be abused by those that know how to cheat and steal. I know for a fact that if and when the US goes too far left I'll be the first in line to get a handout since I have worked my ass off for far too long.

[youngred]

17. um Ok

welcome to DU I guess...

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

21. Thanks. Now look at the state of Soviet USSR

Oh, that's right, they don't exist now. I wonder if it is due to too msny people working harder than they had to keep those that milked the system on par? No way you say? Then why has every major far left socialist country parted ways with that system and gone for the USA model?

[SOteric]

23. Excuse me. The former USSR was a Communist country

not a Socialist country. And yes, there is a significant difference.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

30. My bad

Can we at least agree they pushed 'left' to its limits?

[SOteric]

31. You might be better off using

New Zealand's formerly socialist health care system as your banner issue. -If I understand you correctly.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

32. That's very possible but healthcare is only one piece of the puzzle

I'm not confident we (as humans) can agree enough to negotiate the maze.

[rasputin1952]

37. Communism in the old USSR became ...

conservatism by default. Theose that ran the country certainly did not wish to see change, they could not care less about anyone else, the object of conservatism is to retain power at any cost.

Nazi's were the liberals in the 1920's, going up against the entrenched titled and monied people of the time. Once they were in power, they became the conservatives by default.

Same happens in every society. Here in the US, we are a little more definative of the terms, but ina any case, whomever the power is at the time, if that power is not changed, they become conservative by default.

Enjoy that little bit of truth for a few minutes.

:evilgrin:

[SOteric]

19. In my opinion you're thinking about this from the wrong viewpoint

and a viewpoint too commonly trumpeted by the right-wing media. I urge you not to let mainstream media define your perspective.

"Taxes are what you pay to be an American, to live in a civilized society that is democratic and offers opportunity, and where there's an infrastructure that has been paid for by previous taxpayers. This is a huge infrastructure. The highway system, the Internet, the TV system, the public education system, the power grid, the system for training scientists — vast amounts of infrastructure that we all use, which has to be maintained and paid for. Taxes are your dues — you pay your dues to be an American. In addition, the wealthiest Americans use that infrastructure more than anyone else, and they use parts of it that other people don't. The federal justice system, for example, is nine-tenths devoted to corporate law. The Securities and Exchange Commission and all the apparatus of the Commerce Department are mainly used by the wealthy. And we're all paying for it.

It is an issue of patriotism. Are you paying your dues, or are you trying to get something for free at the expense of your country? It's about being a member. People pay a membership fee to join a country club, for which they get to use the swimming pool and the golf course. But they didn't pay for them in their membership. They were built and paid for by other people and by this collectivity. It's the same thing with our country — the country as country club, being a member of a remarkable nation.

What you quibble over is some small amount of the American infrastructure that would be used by the poorer and middle class segments of society, -those who've put the most dues into the kitty and wish to use it to enhance their own lives.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

22. You have some good points.

You have, however, misunderstood my so-called point.

I'm all for a better (hence more left) system than we have but there is a limit that when crossed will invite abuse by those that would milk the system instead of contributing to it.

[SOteric]

25. There's always a potential for abuse.

But the more capitalistic model invites abuse by a small, elite few at the top of the food change rather than by some mythical layer of 'lazy masses, trying to get something for nothing.'

I know that Welfare fraud exists, and I find it odious. But I also know that the numbers reported in popular media are completely out of perspective to the Gestalt of the situation. Massively, - substantially more monies in the system are lost from abuses of the wealthy, such as the electricity issues that were used to destroy Gray Davis in California, than are ever trickled away by a few scams planned by the pathologically indolent. It's like complaining about a hangnail while your carotid artery is in hemorrhage.

The people milking the system are at the top. It's an evil sleight of hand they use to deflect our attention to crow about the 'riff raff' at the dregs of society trying to get the taxpayer to give them a free ride.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

27. I don't permit the 'right-wing media' to influence my thinking

I'm too old and wise enough to be that gullible. I don't quibble over some small amount of the American infrastructure that would be used by the poorer and middle class segments of society as things stand now.

The subject and concern here is if things go *TOO* far left. Unneeded assistance and waste are the same as Mu drugs - they are ok in moderation and used whed needed but abuse is always tempting and facilitated by too much of a good thing (ie too much leftdom).

You know what I mean?

[SOteric]

29. That was the *original* topic of this thread, but it's been tree'd

out at this time, and my response wasn't to the original poster. My response was in specific response to your post.

You've already replied to my post #19, and this is your second reply to my post #19. Perhaps you meant to read and reply to my post #25 instead?

I don't know that I do know what you mean.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

33. I mean well

All people that need help should get help. Is that clear enough?

[Blue-Jay]

16. "too far left"?

Again, I must say WTF?!?

The biggest difference (and the biggest asset, I believe) between us and the FReeper-types is our diversity. I love those of us whose beliefs are "farther left" than my own. Maybe I don't agree, but I understand and appreciate their input. The majority of the RWingnuts have allowed themselves to be programmed to march in lock-step, disavowing any room for less than black/white logic. THAT, my friends, has had disastrous results for our country, as I'm sure you've noticed as of late. They love to point out the fact that we eat our own with glee. In truth, they're correct. That said, our ability to call "bullshit" when we see it in our own house is what makes us who we are. I love that we can do that, even though I'm well aware that our infighting has caused us elections.

I'm straying off-topic, I know. I, like many of you, am looking for a "fix". Despite our (liberals, I mean) differences, we have to find a way to come together. The future of the nation is at stake.

(honestly, I'm gonna smart off for my next few posts. In addition to the fun-factor, it keeps me sane.)

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

24. I hear you and mostly agree

But there *IS* such a state as too far left. No, we are not there but it is a border that must be monitored and adhered to. I'm sure we all would draw the line on either side of mine but the sigma must be agreed upon beforehand.

[Sting]

14. I'm on the left...

and i can care less if I'm more towards the right(or left) than some. And who cares? Not I said the duck.
Sting

[guitar man]

18. Well put

Sting. I feel the same way you do.


I think what I think and believe what I believe because of my personal convictions about what is right and wrong,not to make me any more right or left or more Democrat or Repuke.

I have always been a registered independent voter until now. I voted for more Repukes in my younger days,and found myself voting fore more and more Democrats of late.

I decided to go Democrat because of the rabid neocon economic stance the Repukes have taken. I believe that if we continue to eliminate living wage employment so that a small number of top execs in this country can continue to feed their out of control wealth addictions,we will wind up creating the biggest bananna republic in the world. I believe the phrase "Promote the general welfare" figures prominently in the preamble of the Constitution.In addition,I favor the decriminalization of drugs,am pro choice and don't like this war in Iraq one damn bit. To the rabid neocons way out on the right,I must seem like some real leftist commie pig for thinking such things.

On the other hand,I drive a big 4 wheel drive pickup truck,am a gun owner and very pro 2nd Amendment,love medium rare ribeye steak and don't believe in coddling criminals and blaming all their bad behavior on society. Those beliefs might make those on the far left
think I am a fascist pig.

I thought about this whole right-left-center perception thing for awhile and decided if I am going to be damned,I am going to be damned for what I am,not what I am trying to be.

[sleipnir]

20. "Left" is a measure of economic standpoints, many often forget this..

[maddezmom]

26. sleipnir~ a serious ?

what does that mean?

[sleipnir]

28. Humm...clarify a bit please....

[maddezmom]

35. ok

"left" is a measure of economic standpoint? call me stoopid, but I really don't know what you mean?

[sleipnir]

36. Ok, here it is

Left/Right refers to the economic standpoints of the person, like the X/Y axis, one classified on "left" "right" by their standpoints on economics. You have to include the Y axis, libertarian/authoritarian. Right is conservative on fiscal issues, while the Left is liberal on fiscal issues. Many Poli Sci's agree that the terms left/right have come to mean much more, but, as I say, fuck common usage.

Anyway, Stalin is a leftist because of his radically liberal fiscal policies (so left, that they failed and, well, he killed people who didn't agree or "matter" to him)

The far "left" ecomically is pretty much facism, government control of industry, but the leaders are elected by the people, so, the people really do control the goals/future of industry.

Look at the Nolan Chart, for a better view.

However, the newer Vosem Chart includes three dimensions and is more in line with the current usage of the term "left", but traditionally, left refers to strict views on economic matters, like subsidies, lassize-faire, etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vosem_Chart

[mitchum]

34. Don't be thrown off by a lot of the liberal smokescreen distractions...

the ONLY thing a leftist should be concerned about is economic justice. The rest are just strident aestheticism and prejudices.

[angee_is_mad]

38. I noticed it too

and I am glad that someone is addressing the issue.