The Matrix Revolutions (again, and Im asking for spoilers)

[Uzybone]

so if you havent seen it yet you may not want to read. But what in the hell did I just see. I think I get the jist of what happened but I may be totally wrong, because no one I talk to agrees with me.

Anyways....what happened at the end between Neo, Smith and the Oracle....did the Oracle infect Smith who infected Neo, and did she then destroy him (Smith)? Did the machines take Neo away to become one of them? Was the Architect lying in Reloaded when he implied the Oracle wasnt the mother of the Matrix? How the hell do programs create other programs that have no purpose. Arent all programs made with a purpose?? Why should a program that has a purpose do something it is not programmed to do? Will the humans trapped in the matrix be released? The architect says that he will release those that want to be released, but how will they know they want to be released, since the live in a virtual world....Arrrrghhhh!!!

All in all it was a very good movie, but left me with even more questions than answers (which may be a good thing).

[GR]

1. Your Reaction Is Much Like Mine...

I liked the special effects, but wanted a whole lot more...this movie just didn't make any sense at all...things kept happening which couldn't be explained...why did they fight in the rain?...what was with the Trainman? How did Zion begin?

I thought they left the door wide open for a sequel but none of the critics think there should be one...however, it's making big bucks worldwide so I'm betting there will be a sequel.

I thought it was definitely inferior to Matrix One, which was great and thought provoking, and just down from Matrix Two, which was down from One.

[kalian]

3. Zion "was there"....

it was "discovered" by the freed humans and it was explained at
one point.
Again...very vaguely and IMHO, the Wachowski bros didn't really
want to delve into that.

They screwed with our brains in the Matrix...and then they took
us for a ride on II and III. Sad but true...

[kalian]

2. OK...the way I understood it....

Was that Neo helped the machines get rid of Smith, since Smith was
infecting the entire Matrix and thus was a direct threat to the
machines' power source.
Neo allowed himself to be "infected" by Smith in order for the
machines to terminate Smith...at least that's how I understood it.

The Oracle and the Architect are like the Ying and the Yang...the
balancing powers of Nature. BTW, I understood the little girl to
be "Nature" as a program as well.

As for the humans still tied into the Matrix...they will continue to
live within their illusion created by the machines and the freed
humans will continue to free more humans although I'd like to know
how this will impact the machine's agreement to stopping the war.

Its obvious that the machines need the humans in order to continue
generating electricity but...what threat are the freed humans to the
machines since its quite obvious that the robot armies can kick some
serious ass. Eventually, all freed humans would be killed...no matter
what.

The whole Neo-christ figure was a standard cliche and IMHO, it
served no purpose. Yes, he was a "savior" but only because the
machines agreed to it. I still don't understand the agreement between
the machines and Neo...doesn't quite "close" so to speak.

IMHO, they should have never made Matrix II and III...with the
Matrix's ending it would have sufficed. II and III were money
money generators for the Wachowski bros...

[toddzilla]

4. agreed

***IMHO, they should have never made Matrix II and III...with the
Matrix's ending it would have sufficed. II and III were money
money generators for the Wachowski bros
****

two sucked, three sucked.


what incredibly inane dialogue.

i'm glad i downloaded it after so many people said it sucked.

i saw the first one in the theater like 6 times even though i had it at home.

[Darranar]

5. Question...

Why didn't the machines terminate Smith any time? Why did they need Neo?

[MojoKrunch]

9. A guess.

//Why didn't the machines terminate Smith any time?//
Why can't computers terminate viruses?
The answer, of course, is they can... with help from anti-virus software.

//Why did they need Neo?//
To terminate the virus.
Neo was, in essence, a virus update using "free will" code.
lol

Mojo

[Uzybone]

6. I like what you wrote here

what threat are the freed humans to the
machines since its quite obvious that the robot armies can kick some
serious ass. Eventually, all freed humans would be killed...no matter
what.


Its a hopelessly depressing story from the humans standpoint. As they only survive because the machine allow them to. But why do the machines allow Zion to exsist? It doesnt help them in anyway.

One other thing that bugs me....if solar energy is so easily accessible (all they have to do is fly up) why go through all the trouble of the whole Matrix thingy.

[MojoKrunch]

10. Yes, it was set up with an illogical premise.

//As they only survive because the machine allow them to. But why do the machines allow Zion to exsist?//
To keep their "power source", the human population "happy".
Recall Smith saying something like "we lost entire crops" when the Matrix was created "perfectly".
The improved "imperfection" included this "The One" reset switch.
I read somewhere that the Asian guy who was guarding the Oracle was supposed to have been another "The One" from an earlier incarnation of the Matrix... but wouldn't that mean he chose the *other* door and killed off all the other humans but a few?

//It doesnt help them in anyway.//
Think of Zion as an overflow tank.

But here is the obvious weak point of the entire premise.
Humans as batteries.
Absolutely freaking ridiculous... from almost every perspective.

The machines can drill down to Zion but not a geothermal vent?
The planets own heat could generate all of the energy they'd ever need, *IN SPADES*.

And since when can machines not fly above thunderstorms?
Hell, rig some giant lightning rods and find a way to harness the electrical strikes.
Holes.
Big, gaping holes.

Mojo

[Uzybone]

13. one problem here

the batteries (humans trapped in the Matrix) dont know diddly about Zion. So why would it matter to them if it was destroyed or allowed to thrive? Unless the imperfections in the Matrix (ghosts, de ja vu etc.) cause the batteries to question if they are really in reality or in a false world. In that case the idea of a Zion (or heaven/paradise) helps placate them. I dont even know if Im making sense lol.

[MojoKrunch]

15. Down the hole with Alice.

Or so it seems with those Wachowskis... sheesh.

//the batteries (humans trapped in the Matrix) dont know diddly about Zion. So why would it matter to them if it was destroyed or allowed to thrive?//
Apparently the "human flaw" Smith alluded to in M1 and the Architect confirmed in M2 had something to do with it.

//Unless the imperfections in the Matrix (ghosts, de ja vu etc.) cause the batteries to question if they are really in reality or in a false world.//
Could be... or maybe a zeitgist sorta thing?
They don't really explain it, do they?

//In that case the idea of a Zion (or heaven/paradise) helps placate them. I dont even know if Im making sense lol.//
That makes sense and yes I suppose it would help placate them.
The "adventurous" humans who couldn't fit into the Matrix properly(wasn't Neo working on some sort of "subversive" software in M1?) and Zion was an outlet... a pressure valve.
Except that eventually the backpressure from Zion caused problems for the Matrix and The One had to reset the entire system by sacrificing the Zionians.

Mojo

[Nay]

17. From the first Matrix, I got the idea that the machines had at first

set up the perfect world (a perfect existence in the Matrix)for their human batteries' minds to live in, and the human mind did not like it, so the machines made their Matrix world a little more complex and imperfect just to keep their minds happy. I never got the sense that Smith was talking about the interplay of the Matrix and the real world (Zion and machine world); he was talking about how to keep the batteries happy by supplying their favorite fantasy world to their minds.

The Christ-like scene of Neo and the machines at the end is an overdone metaphor, and it was very ambiguous. Oracle told the little girl that they sure might see Neo again sometime, leading us to think that he will descend like a Christ, but why would he, except to continue the fight? And since the first movie is straight from Buddhist philosophy, why the Christ metaphor? Very jarring and inappropriate.

And how can we think that Neo, by entering and destroying Smith, destroyed Smith as a virus detector would destroy a virus? Neo did this exact thing to Smith in the first Matrix, and Smith was back for two more movies. The problem is not solved, making the movie unsatisfying, especially since it was the THIRD one. You would think that Neo might start to consider that Smith is not the problem -- at least, not the main problem. The Machines are. And he made a deal with the Machines!

I loved the first Matrix and it should have stopped there, because the brothers either ran out of ideas, or didn't know enough Buddhist philosophy to continue the meta-theme that made the first movie so powerful.

[THUNDER HANDS]

16. it wasn't ONLY because the machines agreed to it

The whole Neo-christ figure was a standard cliche and IMHO, it
served no purpose. Yes, he was a "savior" but only because the
machines agreed to it. I still don't understand the agreement between
the machines and Neo...doesn't quite "close" so to speak.

Neo was the only one who could defeat Smith. THe machines knew this. So the plugged him in and then when Smith infected Neo, the machine basically Deleted Smith and all the other Smith's inside the Matrix (which, at that time, was basically everyone).

Yes, the machines could have said 'Fuck Off' - but then they would have lost their power source, or at least had it in the hands of Smith.

A deal was the ONLY way. It's fitting. Since the whole point of the Matrix was choice.

Everyone has a choice. And in the beginning if man had chosen to make peace with the machines instead of war, then the Matrix would never have happened.

Now the machine had a choice. Make the deal with the humans or risk losing everything.

And a machine, being perfect, chose wisely. And itself, and humans, were saved.

[Red_Viking]

7. Saw it last weekend

I thought the Christian mythology was a bit heavy-handed. Also quite loose with mixing in some Greco-Roman mythology when it suited them. I was also confused about the Train Man; thought it might be some kind of allegory for reincarnation. Who knows.

I LOVED the first Matrix, and I'm not a big sci-fi movie fan. The second one was OK but not nearly up to the standards of the first. Of course, the most interesting foes--the shape-shifting twin albinos--were blown up. Both the second and third films tried to do too much. The first film was interesting because so much time was spent inside the matrix, so the coolness factor was way high. There was a decreasing amount of time spend in the matrix between two and three. That meant more time in dreary Zion...

They left this wide open for a sequel. I still have unanswered questions!!! But I'm not sure I could stomach another one.

RV

[MojoKrunch]

8. This site helps explain it

at least in a literary/philosophical/historical manner.
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/031109matrix.htm

//Anyways....what happened at the end between Neo, Smith and the Oracle....did the Oracle infect Smith who infected Neo, and did she then destroy him (Smith)?//
No.
Smith infected the Oracle as well as the rest of the Martix *and* Neo, in the end.
But Neo's "I choose to" line is the indicator of "free will" triumphing over mechanical design(predestination) and it is his failure to incorporate this aspect of the infected Neo which destroys Smith.

//Did the machines take Neo away to become one of them?//
No, Neo died.

//Was the Architect lying in Reloaded when he implied the Oracle wasnt the mother of the Matrix?//
I doubt it.
The Machine City was home to a myriad of other programs, some apparently quite autonymous.
My take on it is that the Architect *failed* in its first designs of the Matix and the Oracle was part of the patch to fix it.

//How the hell do programs create other programs that have no purpose. Arent all programs made with a purpose?? Why should a program that has a purpose do something it is not programmed to do?//
Yes and no.
Recall we are dealing with the supposition of AI level programs.
Do *you* have a purpose?
Creativity is an inherent aspect of consciousness.
And in the world of the Wachowskis apparently AI level programs can develop behavior we might call emotions.
"Love is just a word."

//Will the humans trapped in the matrix be released?//
If they so choose.
But given what you know of human nature, how many will *choose* to live the life of refugees deep underground when they can instead live the fantasy life of a modern city?
Complete with sunshine.
(How can Trinity have never seen the sun? Did the Zionians free small children or was she born in Zion?)
Recall the traitor from Matrix One who wanted to eat steak again?

//The architect says that he will release those that want to be released, but how will they know they want to be released, since the live in a virtual world....Arrrrghhhh!!!//
Yea, not terribly compelling, eh?
I'm supposing that since the little girl could manipulate the sunset others could learn to manipulate their artificial world as well, thereby confirming the lack of reality... creating curiosity about the "real world"... especialy since jacked in Zionians can now tell them all about living outside of the Matrix.

Who the hell would want to go to the real world if you can manipulate the Matrix?

And why would the machine continue operating the Matrix?
Wasn't the point of their being there in the first place so they could be used as an "energy source"?

Neo's killing Smith and dying to effect a cease-fire between Zion and Machine City is all good and fine, but what is Machine City going to use for *power* now that their energy source has the option to *walk away*?

//All in all it was a very good movie, but left me with even more questions than answers (which may be a good thing).//
Like I said before, the SFX were excellent... the story, on the other hand, had plot holes big enough to drive a truck thru.
(ok, maybe not *that* bad)

I want to leave a movie with questions about the topic of the movie... not about the movie itself.
IMO the Wachowskis would have benefitted from deeper philosophical input when conceiving this movie trilogy.
I get this feeling that they didn't really have any idea beyond Matrix One and sort of made it up on the fly after the first movie did so well.

Mojo

[Uzybone]

11. Mojo, and the others who have replied

you guys have helped a lot. Thanks.

[EarlG]

12. My understanding of it

It's made pretty clear that The Matrix is not just a place to keep humans under control while the machines are using them as a power source, it's also a place where rogue programs, or "exiles" (ie. programs which have outlived their usefulness and are facing deletion), can go to hide. That's why the machines need the agent programs like Smith in the first place - they're kind of the "liason" between the Matrix and the machine mainframe (where Neo goes to see the Architect at the end of Reloaded) who are there to hunt down exiles and humans who shouldn't be there. The Merovingian (sp?) and the Train Man are like the "underground railroad" for programs facing deletion, for a price obviously.

So the whole deal with Smith in Revolutions is that he's gotten out of control but the machines can't touch him, so they need Neo to act as a bridge between the machine mainframe and the Matrix. Smith "overwrites" Neo at the end of Revolutions, but because Neo is plugged directly into the machine mainframe, the machines then have direct contact with Smith and can delete him and all his copies. I have no clue what the deal is with the Oracle while all this is going on, unless it's got something to do with confusing Smith so he doesn't know that Neo is plugged into the machine mainframe.

I think it's also implied that Smith has in fact taken complete control of the Matrix at the end of Revolutions, which means that he has "overwritten" every single human plugged into the Matrix. Which means, basically, that everybody's dead (except the humans living in Zion). So the machines are screwed anyway because they've already lost their power source, which is why they agree to a truce. In Reloaded the Architect says "there are levels of survival we're prepared to accept," but I guess that means acknowledging that without their power source they won't be able to beat the humans. But then of course you've got the whole "humans need machines to survive and vice versa" deal going on.

So anyway, if this is all the case then I think it's actually a pretty good story - I think they just did a terrible job of explaining it. And of course there are a million loose ends that never get tied up because they were so busy throwing in junk to pad the movies. Most of the stuff that leaves you thinking "hmmm" in Reloaded never gets resolved in Revolutions.

I read a couple of reviews which suggested that they had one good sequel for the Matrix, but obviously due to monetary considerations it got padded into two sequels. I think if they'd cut all the filler crap out of Reloaded and Revolutions and combined the good parts, they'd have had one great fucking movie. Shame really.

[Uzybone]

14. Good explaination of the Neo vs Smith battle

thanks. I guess the Wajhowski bros will have to explain what the Oracles' role in the whole encounter was at a later date.