I went to an AA meeting yesterday

[hussar]

as an observer mind even though I'm quite partial to getting blitzed now and again.

I found there was lots of god and religion involved, not sure I feel that is necessary, how about you?

[Droopy]

1. AA is all about putting your faith into a higher power

Even if your an atheist you are supposed to acknowledge a greater force. It's just a part of the program and I guess it's essential to the way it works. Why did you go as an observer?

[hussar]

3. Am doing a course at college

and a fellow student who is in the program asked me if I wanted to see a meeting so I said yes.

I will say it was interesting listening to people tell their stories and scary too, almost put me off having a drink!

I met some great people and good luck to them.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. That is why...

There are alternatives to AA out there, although, due to the political clout of AA, you hardly hear of them. In the recovery field, AA is the 800-pound(What is that in stone?) Gorilla, and wouldn't have it any other way.

[E_Zapata]

9. AA has ZERO political affiliations.......

so I don't know where you think they got their clout.

maybe it's because it works and saves lives that it is so popular?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

12. It has clout.

Go, get a DUI. Part of your sentence is to attend AA. That's clout.

ETOH Counselors will admit that AA has clout within the judicial system. They have to me.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. they work, so people are refered to them

that doesn't mean they have any influence over whether people hear about or know about other groups.

The court will recognize any rehab where a person is getting help. The court just wants to see you are doing something.

[maxanne]

27. it's not clout

It's the absolute failure on the part of our society and judicial system to act responsibly. Please - come up with a sentencing alternative! As a member of AA I'm wicked tired of tourists coming through, getting a paper signed, and going off to the bar to destroy my anonymity.

I teach a DUI education program. All DUI offenders are NOT sent to AA.

AA is a convenient way of passing the buck. Why should amateurs be responsible for what convicted lawbreakers do? Why should we have to educate them? AA is free - and covers the irresponsible ass of the judicial system.

[Cheswick2.0]

20. a person close to me is both and atheist and an addict

she has gone to those other groups and they have done jack shit for her. Except for the fact that I respect her beliefs as her own business, I would tell her to get her ass to AA.

[soothsayer]

4. Jung described alcoholism as a twisted desire for spirituality

He might have been on to something. Also, alcoholics tend to have an overestimation of their importance (the idea that the world revolves around them and that everyting happens to them and only them, that they are under a ton of pressure, etc.) so they also need to have a thing that is more important than they are---like God. Seems to me that would come from Lacan's theory of the importance of the 'father.'

Anyway, it's those things and prolly more.

[hussar]

6. That makes sense

thaks for that insight.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

11. You must also remember:

AA was the result of Bill W. and others involvement with The Oxford Movement, a revivalist organization. Much of the doctrine of AA comes directly from that.

[0007]

32. I have much respect for Jung.....

If that was his statement about alcoholism."alcoholism as a twisted desire for spirituality" - Jung is in my opinion only partially correct.

Alcohol is a nasty addiction, and the physical addiction is the most devastating of all drugs. More people have died from alcohol withdrawal than any known drug.

All people start drinking for many different reasons. It appears that some are more susceptible to addiction than others. Drinking problems such as the periodic drunk may appear as alcoholism.

A way of finding happiness through alcohol is usually the motive to begin with for some drinkers. For others it may be to cover up bad memories of a terrible childhood. For other drinking is to cover up a personality defect. And there are many more reasons, that I believe that go beyond the 'spirituality' conception of Jung.

I once was a heavy drinker and many friends thought that I had a problem. Convicing me to the point that I did go to AA. All I can say about AA is that it is not for me. I could talk non-stop for three hours or more about AA. They have done more good than harm.

[TrogL]

5. It's not religious

it's more of a free-form spirituality. You allowed to do the "higher power" thing at your own speed.

[hussar]

7. Why do they say the Lords prayer at the end?

and constantly make references to God?

[lefty_mcduff]

16. Disagree completely.

Attended AA a few years back. They go on about a vaugue ideal of a 'higher power' but it quickly becomes apparant *what* higher power we're actually talking about (Judeo-Christianity) From my experiences (I attended regularly for three months) is that there are two kinds of people that *remain* (AA has an incredibly high drop out rate). Control freaks and sheep. Just take a look at how many of the twelve steps actually deal with alcohol dependance. AA philosophy also flies in the face of a great deal of addiction research - ie: gaining power *over* addiction, rather than the addiction controlling you. Step one in AA involved admitting that you are poweless over your addiction. In reality, AA has a very high relapse rate, and overall a faily low success rate.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. and even then they have a better success rate than anything other

Why are people so freaked out by the Higher Power aspect? Go somewhere else if you don't like it, but don't criticize. AA is one of the few treatments that doesn't prey on people for profit. Anyone can go and people will help you just because someone once helped them.

[E_Zapata]

8. Believe me.....there is NO RELIGION in AA

If you see it......it's your filter.

And......there are STEPS. If you want to try to synthesize all the steps all at once......you can talk yourself right into it or out of it. But.....as with anything...everything starts with ONE STEP. And that's the first step.

So, Hussar, do you have a desire to stop drinking? If so.....you are in the right place (AA). Remember, you can pull out of it any ole time you want. But keep in mind......the first step and only the first step.

Some people are on the first step for 20 years (not a lot of folks...but some). And some people finish the 1st step before they ever walk in the door (that would *not* be you.....and that's cool).

So, when you climb stairs......and you are carrying a load of laundry in both arms......are you focused/concerned/worried about the top most stair, or do you take it step by step?

Hey.............you are a hero in your own life by having the courage and dignity to explore AA. And if that's all you do.....make damn sure you give yourself an A+ rating. Kudos to you! You should be proud - irrespective of your overall feel about it. You walked through the doors, man! Cool.

EDIT: I just went back and read your replies. So, you went strictly for a class thing or a social thing with a fellow student? This has nothing to do with you.....at all? Hmmmm, seems I remember a rather desperate post by you...and DRINKING binges was definitely on the banquet table. So.......call it what you will, but I bet your friend invited you because he thought you might personally get something out of it.

You know what AA is REALLY famous for? You may find out....but I will tell ya: If you have a problem with alcohol...and you go to an AA meeting........you will never enjoy drinking again. It RUINS it for ya.

[hussar]

10. Hey I went as an observer

I am taking mental health and human services at college and doing the D&A track, I was interested in seeing what went on at a meeting, I'll go for sure when I finish my beer (joke)

[E_Zapata]

13. good joke......

but see my edit to my post.......I just added to it.

[E_Zapata]

14. And remember the step: My life has become unmanageable?

Well......THAT applies to you......based on the post earlier this week........

If anything.....go to some meetings to address that.

I mean...if that post earlier this week wasn't a good example of a guy crying in his BEER, I don't know what it was. Not that I don't have total compassion for your situation (i really do!).....but...hey, you aren't making your life happen. It's no one's fault. If one guy can make his life happen, so can you. So, why can't you or don't you? Because your life is unmanageable, and, as you said, when things get really precarious for you, you go out on a drinking binge. That's the material of the 1st step.

And, aside from Tandalayo's strident obervations, there ARE atheists in AA.....and they do just fine. For example, I could be your higher power. I sure could be. My life is totally unmanageable.....but I don't go on drinking binges. Therefore, I have a little bit more going than you. (I hope that comes off right......I am just pointing out that the REASON they call it a higher power is because it is exactly that.....a power greater than yourself. And I might be an example of that).

But hey...you don't have a 'problem' like those people in that meeting.

Well, I don't know very many people who end up in AA meetings by ACCIDENT!

[hussar]

15. Point taken

Yes I also went to see if I could learn something but my problem isn't just about alcohol there are other factors involved, believe me I don't drink all the time but more than I shoud and I know it.

My friend attends the meetings because of his drug habit that was induced by drinking.

Please don't think I am poking fun because I am not, I think it's great that people can achieve their goal, I just have a problem with religion being used (it was at the meeting I attended)

I have problems but they are more emotional and I suffer with depression.

I am not here to argue....

Peace

[E_Zapata]

18. It's totally cool, dude

I am not trying to be argumentative either.

But it's really so common for a person to go to a meeting and latch onto the God stuff and the lord's prayer (said all over the world....not just your meeting). Hey...I am NOT a christian. I abhor christianity (note to DUers: this is not a religion bashing thread! It's my honest to god feelings......don't bash me).

And the first 12 step meeting I went to...I was all "EGAD! YUCK!". Months later -- when I really needed the meetings -- I went back.....and luckily I saw that there was something else there......something quite remarkable.

So it's normal to perceive it as a cult or fundie..... and if you go back.....speak up in the meeting and talk about "what's this god/religion" stuff about? eeek" The whole room will burst into LAUGHTER! Because every single one of them got the same hairs on the backs of their neck at first! But I promise you.....that guy sitting next to you who came in after a major bender 5 years ago was NOT looking for god or religion!

And.....do you think that drinking has no impact on depression, no friends, no job, no direction issues? How drinking could help any of that or even just be a neutral factor is pretty unrealistic. So......if you could change just one thing FOR SURES......do it. And you CAN quit drinking for just today. So do it. Try it out. One day at a time. If it works for you on one day.....try it the next. If you drink the next day.....and that doesn't feel quite right......make a new commitment for the next day to not drink. One day at a time.

And that's enough of my proselytizing! Good luck to you.

Btw, I am a buddhist.....and there are plenty of buddhists, jews, atheists, christians of all varieties, but the bulk of the 12 steppers I know are AGNOSTIC.....meaning.....they don't really know for sure about God's existence, but, hey, if it helps to assume there is a God and that God will help out......why the heck not turn to him?

[hussar]

21. You make sense

I am actually going to see a counselor on Monday!

My depression turns on the voice to drink, another voice says play some sad music and then yet another voice says go on do it. Pretty weird crap going on in that noggin of mine the funny thing is when I am on vacation I don't hardly drink?

Buddhism now there's a thing, sounds interesting, I think I will check that out as I've heard good things about that.

Good luck with everything

[E_Zapata]

30. buddhism rocks.......esp for depressive types......

You know.....it's all about suffering......LOL That I can relate to!! Ha!

You say you don't have a consistent social life? Man.....you've got a party going on in your head! But you need to brighten things up a bit, eh?

Well, you do know that they will try to put you on welbutrin or prozac or elavil or whatever the favored 'soma' drug is this month, right?

I don't know.....there's so much a person can do to right their mood and nervous system, such as: a really healthy diet, 64 ounces of water a day, walking 1 mile a day at fairly brisk pace......and laying off the libations (at least for a while). You try that for 1 month.....and I guarantee that you will feel totally new! And no drugs necessary.

Problem is......the depression keeps you from actively DOING those things consistently. That's the catch 22. So......if they put you on drugs.....do all the GOOD things listed above.....and work yourself off the drugs. Just use them as a 'boost'.

Good luck dude!! You are really putting some good mind energy to the issues, and that's the best possible step you can take! Good on you.

[mopinko]

17. rational recovery

is a similar organization that is based on your objections. don't know how widespread they are but there are a couple of chapters here in chicago. instead of the whole higher power thing, they talk about addictive voice recognition. they stress finding an answer to the little voice that tells you you need a drink. this, i think, is what the whole higher power thing is- an answer to that voice.

[Susang]

25. Rational recovery has an excellent success rate

Particularly with people who are hesitant to admit that they are powerless. It did wonders for my cousin who had been through almost every recovery group, all of them "higher power" based. RR emphasised her own personal power over her addiction. For someone who's problems pretty much began with horrendeous self esteem, it was a powerful message.

Rational recovery is basically cognitive therapy, which has been found to work better than psycho-analysis, drugs and AA. It teaches you how to identify those internal voices and how to fight them. In my opinion, it isn't necessary for every addict to submit to a higher power to get clean. In many cases that I know, it actually hindered their recovery.

[GAspnes]

26. aka "rational emotive therapy"

it's another reasonably successful counselling and re-training approach. I think it adds to AA, since there isn't any one perfect program.

[Susang]

28. Agreed

What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for someone else.

My issue with AA is that they insist that their program is the only one that works. I don't know if that is their "official" line, but it is the one that seems to be used in the trenches. I've had many friends become demoralized by that attitude.

[0007]

34. You got that right!

'Tis a little hard to see the difference between AA and the Frist Street Baptist boys.

[hussar]

33. I looked at that

and am going to learn more, seems quite attuned to my way of thinking.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. yes it's nessesary

There are groups that cater to the non religious set, however they do not work as well. the whole idea is to admit you are powerless over your addiction. One of the main coping skills taught in AA is to turn your problems over to a higher power.
If you don't like that you can always go somewhere else. However, what you can't do is change what is working for other people. Think about it.

[MaryBear]

23. AA groups differ.

Make some phone calls and find one you can tolerate. While all follow 12 steps, some emphasize religion more than others. CoDA might be a help. Co-Dependents Anonymous also is a 12 step program.

By the way, many alcoholics begin by knowingly or unknowingly self-medicating other parts of their lives... depression, anxiety...

Not to get on your case, but binging is a form of alcoholism, and a tough one to beat. Every alcoholic can stop drinking for some period of time.

Congrats on attending your first meeting, for whatever reason.

[E_Zapata]

31. Yeah, I have been to 12 step meetings all over the world.......

well, not ALL OVER.....but in Europe and Mexico and Canada, and of course the USA. And in the USA, I have gone to meetings in different states.

And this is what I learned. The spiritual zeal, or what have you, seems to reflect the broad-based spiritual community at large where the people live.

So......in Texas.....it's much more fundie.....

But in S. California......you've got the surf god theme.

And in N. Arizona.....it's really new-agey.

And in mexico....it's really sedate...kind of like catholicism.

so...it's a reflection of the overall community, I think. And that makes sense.....since it draws from the entire community.

[maxanne]

29. AA is a microcosm

You'll find people who are big on religion, and people who are not.

I am not - at all- and AA has worked just fine for me. I modify the Lord's prayer when I say it - and no one wigs out. I refuse to pray to an old white guy - and that's my choice. You can also step outside the circle and not pray - that's perfectly okay, too.

The beauty of AA is that it's all about what I choose. The god of my understanding. I can take what I want, and leave the rest.