Watching ESPN Classic... Tyson was a monster

[johnnie]

I forgot what a powerful hitter he was. 19 years old and one shot from his left hand and you saw La La land.

[johnnie]

1. No one else digs boxing?

:shrug:

[Elidor]

2. He was amazing until he fought Buster Douglas

And it's been a long, ignominious decline ever since. In his prime, he was like a shark: vicious, swift, punishing and remorseless.

Now he's just a washed-up piece of shit. He squandered everything he ever had.

[johnnie]

3. I agree

Ok.. Tyson and Ali in their prime. Who would win?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

4. Ali, if he survived the first couple of rounds

and Ali probably could have as he was one of the greatest defensive heavyweights of all time and also one of the most rugged in the chin department. Ali not only had quick hands but VERY quick feet and would have destroyed Tyson with his jab. Tyson was never a great defensive fighter but was obviously one of the greatest punching machines of all time in his prime. Tyson's defense was his offense. Ali was the complete package.

[johnnie]

8. I agree

Watching these fights, if anyone goes past two rounds w/ Tyson, they have a chance. Tyson brawled a lot in the first few rounds and tired easily. I think Ali could have taken a few hits for a few rounds and then nailed it in a few more.

[Elidor]

6. That's the $64,000 question

Unlike so many boxing fans, I don't know. The two of them in their prime were just so amazing. I think it would go something like this:

Tyson would rock Ali on his heels right off the bat, take the fight to him. He would freak Ali's shit a little bit with his speed and strength. After a minute to take Tyson's measure, Ali would begin to rope-a-dope, using his skill and his own not inconsiderable power. Tyson against Ali would be a classic case of ferocity against subtlety, rage against brains. Ultimately, barring some spectacular knockout, it would come down to who can take the biggest beating, and that would probably be Ali, who has been beaten half to death in the ring and still walked away, whereas Tyson rarely got hit and never really had to deal with having his body slowly destroyed in the ring. Ali in his prime can handle the marathon, but Tyson in his prime never had to do that.

But who knows. I'm just talkin' outta my ass.

[AngryAmish]

7. Tyson beat Holmes, Holmes beat Ali

Therefore, in the transitive sense, Tyson is better than Ali.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. I think the question involved the boxer's prime

When Tyson beat Holmes he was about 22 years old and it happened before the time off in prison. He was thus in his prime, although in fairness to Tyson it was one of his early fights.

Holmes beat an aging Ali when Ali was in his late 30s (about 38 I think) and it was Ali's next to last fight. Ali was never the same fighter when he came back to the ring after his enforced departure and he was but a shadow of his former self when Holmes beat him.

Of course boxing is also about match-ups. You never know how two fighters will match up, and Tyson Ali in their respective primes would have been a thing of awesome beauty.

[AngryAmish]

13. I just wonder why they didn't fight

Actually, they are still alive so I guess they could fight.

[Elidor]

12. Yeah, but we all know that doesn't really mean anything

Ali was already in decline. Tyson was up and coming. If they had met at that time, sure, no contest. But I'm talking about both of them in their prime. Ali was a tough mofo, and a very smart fighter. I don't think he's ever gotten much credit for being as smart as he is, but his toughness at least is unquestioned.

He was also a good representative of the sport, much moreso than Tyson could ever hope to be. His mental decline is a very sad commentary on the sport. Ali is perhaps the best argument for why the sport should be banned. It's horrible what happened to that man. I can't even watch the Holmes fight. It's obscene.

[johnnie]

9. No, you're not talkin' out you ass

Like I said somewhere here, Tyson would get weak after a few rounds. I think you captured what would have happened perfectly.

[dannofoot]

16. Ali...

...Tyson had a habit of telegraphing his punches, and Ali was simply too fast and deceptive in his prime. Mike was a brawler; Ali would have gotten so far into his head that Tyson would have gotten frustrated early. Ali KO in the sixth.

[sasquatch]

5. It seems like he was a bit of a paper champion though

There were guys who when they got in the ring they were so scared of the guy they forgot to how to fight. When Buster Douglas got in the ring with him though it seemed like he knew how to fight and wasn't scared of him. In the end because Tyson didn't have any trained boxing guys in the ring with him he eneded up losing the fight to Buster Douglas, who pulled off one of the greatest upsets ever in boxing history and retired as country gentleman somewhere around Columbus, Ohio. Tyson though is broke and having to go on novelty gigs just so he's able to eat.

[johnnie]

10. He was mismanaged in my opinion

Tyson wasn't the smartest kid on the block and was used for the pigs making the big money. If he would have been taken care of he might not have turned out the way he did.

I agree that anyone getting in the ring with him mindfucked themselves half the time and ended up losing because of that.

[Awsi Dooger]

14. Ali would have towered over tiny Mike Tyson

I ceased to believe in Mike Tyson long before Buster Douglas exposed him. I've mentioned before on DU that seeing Tyson in person is an incredible jolt, almost laughable. He is a midget, certainly by feared heavyweight standards. The first time I saw Tyson was at the old Sands Hotel in the late '80s. A British couple standing next to me was equally astonished. "Why lookee there, it's Mike Tyson," the husband said. I'll never threaten to forget his wife's response. "Why, he can't be more than 5 feet tall!"

She exaggerated, but not by as much as you think. Tyson is 5-7 or 5-8, absolute tops. I loved it when a reporter once wrote of Tyson being listed at 5-10: "Yeah, in a top hat."

Remember, a bulked up lightheavy in Evander Holyfield toyed with Tyson physically, literally shoving him backwards when little Mike annoyed him inside. Ali is a naturally huge man with broad shoulders. It would have been a physical mismatch even more than a talent/skill mistamch, especially if we're talking about a pre-exile Ali. A young Tyson relied on fear. Ali took care of a much bigger but equally devastating and feared heavyweight in Sonny Liston. Admittedly, Liston was older and we want to evaluate Ali/Tyson in their respective primes. Still, Ali would carve Tyson up with the jab and talent. Tyson proved many times that when he's in trouble, he finds the most convenient exit.

[johnnie]

15. I'm 5'6"

Not much of a fighter, but I don't think being a bit shorter than most means much. Tyson kicked a lot of tall ass.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

17. Rocky Marciano was about 5' 10"

Tyson is officially listed at 5' 11". Joe Frazier was about 5' 11". I've heard people comment about how very small Joe Frazier looked in person. Marciano was one of the hardest hitting heavyweights ever. I completely agree with you about the probable outcome of a match up between Tyson and Ali. I just think that a fighter's height isn't always necessarily determinative. It depends on their style and the style match up with the other fighter. A tall man is going to have a hard time getting to the short man's midsection and the upper cut will not be as effective and can be smothered. If the short man is quick and can cut off the ring effectively and is a good in-fighter, he can actually use short height to his advantage. The reach advantage is also a factor. Ali had an 11 inch reach advantage over Tyson, which is nearly one foot. That's really an awesome advantage, when you also factor in Ali's tremendous jab, which I would rank as second best only to Joe Louis' jab (which could knock a man out in and of itself). The strength of a punch comes out of the legs and the back. Tyson was a bull with extraordinary strength in his punches. However, I think you are absolutely right about the probable outcome between Iron Mike and The Greatest.