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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 07:31 AM
Original message
140 year anniversary of the Gettysburg Address
Just heard the incomparible actor, Sam Waterston, deliver Lincoln's stirring words on NPR. Can't help but think of that greatest of presidents, visiting with the wounded, comforting the widow and orphan, literally giving the last ounce of his devotion to the country that is 'by the people. of the people. for the people'. Wonder what he would think of the unspeakable cad and coward we have in the White House now.
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MousePlayingDaffodil Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Given this anniversary . . . .
. . . I think it only appropriate to consider this alternative view.

* * * *

"Note on the Gettysburg Address

"by H.L. Mencken

"The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves."

I'm not saying that I agree with these sentiments, but I do think they raise some interesting issues for discussion.
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alexwcovington Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Don't read too much into that
Mencken was not commenting on racism or slavery, just the mere fact that the Confederates were seeking self-governance.
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MousePlayingDaffodil Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, I understand THAT . . . .
That's precisely why I posted it. It does raise interesting issues, particularly in today's environment, where the Repugs and wingnut whackos are, even today, trying to figure out a way to use the powers of the federal government to frustrate the will of the people of the Commonwealth Massachusetts, who have decided to recognize same-sex marriage as an institution.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Mencken was wrong
Edited on Wed Nov-19-03 10:45 AM by ZombyWoof
Here's why:

In the decades leading up to the war, the southern slave-holding states grew increasingly agitated about their inability to expand slavery to every new territory. They had already been given a major concession in the original Constitution: Slaves, although having NO rights, were considered 3/5ths a person in order to boost the South's representation in Congress, and even more significantly, in the Electoral College, so the South would have more pull in presidential elections.

The south worried that the slave economy, since the halt to the importation of them, and no new soil to farm and work their labor, would weaken tremendously or die out, and wreck their "way of life" for good. No doubt the south was still a region of great poverty, and the end of slavery would be an adjustment too heavy to contemplate. What to do with the freed slaves? Many mainstream thinkers, from both north and south, suggested expatriation to Africa or Latin America to form colonies. Either way, ending slavery was an unthinkable option for southerners and sympathetic northerners.

So what to do in order to keep their right to slavery? A right sanctioned, and even given special treatment for the slave states, in the document?

They seceded from the Union, which is well, frankly, unconstitutional. The Constitution gives the government the power to quell insurrections. Secession is not a right granted in the document either. The Constitution does not contain a provision for undoing that which is its ostensible purpose for existing: The formation of a united, federal government, with its jurisdiction superior to the states. No court was going to allow, or had ever upheld before, secession as an unenumerated right either. Secession flies in the face of the document's reason for being. As a form of insurrection, it had to be stopped, constitutionally. As I said, the document did not possess the means for its unlawful undoing within it.

The south was going outside of the law in order to uphold slavery, which was increasingly meeting more and more resistance at its expansion - even as it was still legally sanctioned! They were "destroying the Constitution in order to save it". The south was scared, and went above the law. The only "self-determination" at stake here was their determination to disregard the Constitution when it was convenient for them to do so. Breaking with the Constitution is not something one takes up for convenience.

Lincoln was right. The Union had to be preserved for the sake of ALL Americans, north, south, black, white, and everyone.



Incidentally, I have ancestors who fought on both sides of the war, mostly in the Confederacy. My southern heritage goes back over 200 years. I say this because I am often one of the south's ardent defenders when it takes hits on DU. The Confederacy is not the south, however, and receives no justification from me. I leave history to be the judge, and Lincoln is correctly revered for his eloquent brief words.

Lincoln was the greatest orator and speechwriter who ever sat pen to paper in the White House. Read his second Inaugural if you have a chance. The force of his prose is amazing.

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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Amazing
what some folks can do with an envelope and a stub of pencil...
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Mencken was a rabble-rouser and a satirist, possibly one
of the three best Americans at it, along with Will Rogers and Harry Shearer... okay, maybe Mark Twain too.

I think he was pulling cranks here, folks.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think he was serious
Don't get me wrong, I like most of Mencken's work. He was a misanthrope like Twain, and a great satirist. Who doesn't like his quote "No one ever got broke underestimating the stupidity of the American public."?

But he had his dark side, which flirted with anti-semitism, and was something of a conservative/libertarian. Considering how Confederate apologia was mainstream in the 1920's (the resurgence of the Klan, the recent popularity of Griffith's films, etc,), Mencken was putting forth what was considered an academically sound view in defense of the Confederate cause.

But history has rolled over him on this, for reasons cited in my post above.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. ZombyKick!
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. 140 years ago, the Republican party had something to be proud of
Look how far they've fallen.

Sad.

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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hey... *... here's a message for you and all your NeoCon scum...
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