CPR / SCUBA question

[Superfly]

I just saw a bit on OLN about a freediving accident. Upon ascending, one of the free divers experienced shallow water blackout and stopped breathing on the surface. One of the rescue divers (SCUBA equipped), in the water began giving mouth-to-mouth as the unconscious free diver was taken to a nearby boat.

My question is, this: Wouldn't it be better to attempt to revive the passed out diver using air from the scuba tank instead of mouth-to-mouth?

[commander bunnypants]

1. My quess is

that Scuba gear wont pump o2 into the lungs. I just got recertified.

DDQM

[Aristus]

2. I would think the pressure regulator on the SCUBA would not

not force air down into the lungs, which is the purpose of mouth-to-mouth. When using SCUBA, you have to breath in to get air from the tank.

[Superfly]

3. You can press the purge valve

which forces air through the regulator.

[onebigbadwulf]

4. As far as I remember

the dump valve sends air out of the tank into the water, not the mouth piece

[Superfly]

6. No, the air goes through the regulator if you press the

purge valve.

[Dookus]

5. I'm a pretty regular scuba diver....

and you MUST inhale on the regulator for air to get in. You COULD, I suppose, hit the purge valve to push air in, but you'd have little control over how much air was being pushed into the lungs.

CPR would be a much safer way to do it. In fact, in rescue diving classes, you are always taught to use CPR, not the tank.

[Superfly]

7. Thanks!

nt

[ZoCrowes]

21. Close

It's not CPR unless you do chest compressions. In the water that's next to impossible. They are called "rescue breaths."

[mmm]

8. there is some heated debate on what would result...

remember, a scuba diver at 500 feet (very very deep for scuba gear
regardless of mix)still has normal sized lungs
due to breathing compressed air. The lungs of a free diver at 500 feet are compressed to the size of potatoes. Some theorize that
breathing thru a regulator at that point would rip your lungs apart.
I have found no one who has ever tried.

[Dookus]

9. Nope...

the lungs of a scuba diver are compressed at death. Doesn't matter whether they're breathing compressed air or not.

http://www.flash.net/~table/gasses/boyle1.htm

[Dookus]

23. heheh...

too late to edit, but naturally, I meant "depth" in the previous post, not "death"

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. There is no debate at all. You cannot force enough air in the

lungs fast enough with a SCUBA regulator.
It would be pointless.

[Superfly]

11. But, with mouth-to-mouth

aren't you just filling the other person's lungs with your expelled CO2? So, that would be pointless.

[Dookus]

12. nope...

in each breath, you only extract a very small amount of oxygen. Unless you hold the breath for a long time, which you do NOT do during CPR, the CO2 level is not that high.

[Nailzberg]

13. The air you breathe is 21% O2.

The air you exhale contains about 15% O2. Plenty to share.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. The point is not to get oxygen to them in CPR but ti get the lungs to fill

and clear so that they begin respirating normally.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

14. Of course, mouth to mouth is not regarded as state-of-the-art

any more, what with all the germ phobia and such. A pocket mask is much better if you can.

[moof]

15. Here is some interesting info on freediving.

There are several points here that seem off the mark but, being more of a coral reefer than wreck diver the need or want to go much below 60 feet has never held any fasination for moof. First air triggered from the purge on a standard (second stage) regulator would tend to flow on the path of least resistance which would simply vent out the exhaust ports as it does during exhale so there would be no assurance that any air would be delivered to the lungs. Second while a free diver & scubadiver are compressed to the same degree at 33 feet a scuba diver can still fully infate their lungs but it requires twice as much air as at the surface. The free diver's lungs at 33 feet will be compressed to half their surface volume because of being at twice the pressure. The last bit is about a free diver taking a breath from a compressed air source at great depth. The second stage of scuba regulator is built to deliver air to the diver at a pressure that is adjusted for the pressure at any depth so taking a breath at 33 feet feels no different than taking a breath 99 feet. Even though the amount of air delivered is greater it takes up no more space. As the following article states this guy holds a two breath record that involves him taking a second gulp of air at 250 feet.

http://www.learnscuba.com/stat/ssnpipin.html

exerpt from article

Ferreras’ free diving abilities become even more amazing when you consider what his body goes
through on each deep dive. At 400 feet, almost 200 pounds-per-square-inch of pressure constricts
Pipin’s chest from 50 inches to 20 inches and the squeeze of 185 psi would collapse an airtight car.
The incredible 8.2 liters of air he inhales is compressed to virtually nothing. The pressure squeezes the
blood plasma from his limbs and causes his lungs to flood, washing away the lining of the lungs that
prevents lung walls from sticking together should the lungs collapse. In the event of a shallow-water
blackout, not even oxygen administered by the safety divers via regulator could save his life. During
the loss of consciousness he would not be able to force air into his
lungs. There is also the danger of getting bent (which Pipin has
suffered twice), since even the relatively small amount of absorbed
nitrogen doesn’t have time to boil out of body tissues on the quick
ascent. And there is the threat of shallow-water blackout -
especially damaging to sensitive nerve tissue - when all available
oxygen is drained from the blood’s hemoglobin.

[Dookus]

16. which is why I love

scuba diving (I've been as deep as 220') but I think freedivers are NUTS!

[moof]

18. Yikes , what were you doing at 220' ?

Agreed the freedivers going for depth do seem to have an odd sense of adventure. To go down so far that you buy yourself over an hour of decompression time and risk the bends for a 60 second descent seems to suggest in the words of a favorite seapal

" dude you've got serious thrill issues."

[Dookus]

22. Heheh....

actually, it was on one dive at a site off Cozumel called Maracaibo Deep. The top of the mount is about 190', and we missed it on the way down. By the time we found the mount, we were at 220', and we immediately started our ascent. We were surrounded by a group of dive instructors and master divers.

the whole point of going there is to see large pelagics, but we didn't see any. We hit 220, started up the wall, then kept a close eye on our computers throughout the whole ascent, doing plenty of deco stops where necessary.

The only real danger going that deep is oxygen toxicity, but we remained (barely) in the safe range.

It was actually a great dive. Wish we've seen a big fish, though ;)

[ZoCrowes]

25. Hmmm

Ox Tox is not the only danger. Nitrogen narcosis is a huge consideration. No it won't kill you directly but it can lead you to doing some pretty stupid stuff. A buddy of mine once chased after a fish trying to give it his primary regulator.

I'm an instructor and I would never DREAM of taking openwater divers to that depth. Hell, I would not go to that depth myself because I am neither trained nor prepared for it.

Sorry to rant I'm going to get off my soapbox now.

[Dookus]

27. I understand entirely....

I'm very familiar with nitrogen narcosis. Oddly enough, I only got very slightly narced on that dive. I've been much more narced on much shallower dives.

The presence of all the dive instructors and dive masters around me made me feel safer. At the time, I had about 100 dives, most of them in Monterey Bay, which is pretty tough diving conditions. The warm, clear water of the Caribbean is a piece of cake by comparison.

I agree, regular openwater divers shouldn't try such a dive. We knew this was an advanced dive (I have my Advanced certification) and while not formally certified in deco diving, the instructors with us did give us a rather in-depth overview of what to do. My computer did all the work, to be honest - I just went where it told me to go and stayed as long as it told me to stay. I also had a backup computer with me, and stayed within arms length of my buddy the whole time, and within visual contact of at least 4 instructors at all times. Furthermore, the divemasters on the boat do that trip regularly, and were right near us in the water, too.

It was a once in a lifetime chance, and we did it. I've had MUCH more harrowing dives in the kep forests of Monterey.

[ZoCrowes]

29. Good enough I guess

Sounds like you have your shit together.

In all honesty I probably would have done the same thing.

There seems to be quite a few people here who dive or at least have an interest in it which is very cool.

[Dookus]

30. Yes, it is cool.

where do you dive?

As I said, I do most of mine in Monterey Bay, which is beautiful, but difficult (drysuit, heavy weights, hoods, very cold water, poor viz, lotsa surge, etc. etc.) but it's still one of the most beautiful dive sites in the world.

My brother is an instructor, and I'm considering following in his steps. We're developing a dream of running a dive shop somewhere fun. His wife runs major restaurants and we're tossing around getting a dive B&B somewhere as our "retirement" careers.

On edit: yeah, I bet you would've done the same thing, too. Can you imagine sitting on the boat and having everybody come back talking about the whale shark or giant ray they saw? You'd never forgive yourself. ;)

[ZoCrowes]

31. Inland United States

Gilboa in Ohio, Falling Rock in KY, lots of diving in the Florida Panhandle. I'm in coldwater mode now.

I love being an instructor and would say it has lots of rewards.

I quote the owner of the local dive shop I work for "If you want to make a million dollars in the scuba industry start with two million"

[Dookus]

32. heheh...

oh yeah, we know it's not a get-rich business. But combined with a decent B&B we'd hope to be able to scrape by.

If you ever make it out to California, send me a PM! I'll show ya some awesome kelp forests. Cousteau himself adored diving in Monterey - more life there than just about anywhere else.

[ZoCrowes]

24. 220 FEET!!

Are you trained for deco diving? Are you using and trained tri-mix? If now what were you doing at that depth? I would never even consider going to that kind of depth on air and my current level of training.

[Dookus]

28. No, I'm not trimix certified...

I AM nitrox certified, but that wouldn't have mattered on that dive.

We were all on air. About 20 of us total did the dive and we all returned safely. It was a boat trip full of very advanced divers, many of them instructors, who had dived that site many times.

Yes, I know it was risky. I wouldn't recommend others do it. But I felt comfortable with my own knowledge and skills and those of the people I was diving with to try it. I'm glad I did.

Ya wanna talk safety, go talk to my brother who goes solo night-diving 5 times a week to hunt lobsters. Grrr....

[moof]

33. 100 dives in Monterey Bay, cool

"The warm, clear water of the Caribbean is a piece of cake by comparison."

you betcha & there is no better place to eat that cake than

Sunset House, Grand Cayman. For the price that is, if money is no

object, Aruba is quite nice.

[Dookus]

34. Yeah?

My bf and I are planning a trip to the caribbean for diving. He's newly certified. I've only been to Cozumel, which I thought was excellent diving and very very affordable.

What would you recommend? I've heard great things about Bonaire, and I've been curious about Club Med's Columbus Isle. But I'd do Cozumel again in a minute.

What's yer favorite place?

[OKNancy]

17. If anyone wants to know for sure and get info from an expert

I can e-mail my daughter. She works for Dive Alert Network ( the people who do all the medical aspects and research at Duke)

I'll check back later for responses.

[ZoCrowes]

20. Professional Opinion

I teach Scuba Diving (NAUI Instructor) and I also teach CPR (American Safety And Health Institute) and that would not be a good idea for a few reasons. One of which being that a regulator is a demand system. Breathing gas is provided because the diver demands it. The force of the inhalation opens a downstream valve in the second stage of the regulator and the flow of that air is controlled by the force of the inhalation. So the diver has to be breathing to gain the correct amount. That's very basic way of descriving it. Depressing the purge button (button on front of regulator which opens valve)just forces air through and in many cases it's a very forceful purge. Rescue breaths are better done through mouth to mouth.

[Ilsa]

26. It is possible to damage lungs with too much force.

Anyone who has been certified to do youth/infant CPR will remember that. The only machines that should "force" air into lungs are hospital grade respirators. I wouldn't trust a scuba tank to deliver anything or too much.