Okay, how about Punk Rock? Who started it?

[Loonman]

Was it....

[WilliamPitt]

1. Pistols

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. Americans

Doesn't matter who. Americans started it dammit. They started everything in music. :D

[jeter]

53. The Sex Pistols were influenced by the Ramones

So it had to be the Ramones.

[corarose]

77. They were

The Ramones influenced tons of bands.

[bif]

3. The MC5

.

[WilliamPitt]

6. Right! I stand corrected.

[Wickerman]

7. 2nd that -- eom

[bif]

9. Have you seen the new documentary on the Five?

It supposed to be great. It was sold out here in Detroit. I heard an interview with the filmakers. There'll be a DVD coming out in the future with an additional 2 hours of footage (that surfaced after they completed the film).

[Wickerman]

25. that'll be worth the wait

I'll be in line for that DVD I wonder if Patti has a lot of Fred's video audio stuff?

10. kick

out the Jams!

with honorable mention to Fred "Sonic" Smith's influence the SONICS!
& to MC5's progenitor Sun Ra.

[bill]

14. yep, MC5

FWIW, I always thought the Dolls were glam rock not punk.

Stranded in the Jungle is going to be running through my head all day now - thanks

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

74. thank you - it's them or Ramones

Pistols were a bunch of ringers

[Screaming Lord Byron]

4. The Kingsmen with 'Louie, Louie'

That or Wat Tyler's rebellion in the 14th Century, that was pretty punk rock.

11. that's why

I'm always saying the Sonics.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

12. True, hadn't thought about the sonics.

[HuckleB]

29. That was my first thought, too.

.

[LuminousX]

5. There is only one correct answer: The Ramones

They started it. The Sex Pistols added the anger.

[LuLu550]

13. I'm with you!

My 20 year old son loves to tell his friends that his mom dragged him to his first concert, the Ramones, when he was a wee lad.

[GainesT1958]

8. If I could have, I'd have split my vote...

Between the Sex Pistols and the N.Y. Dolls, beeecause...the Dolls started it over here, and the Sex Pistols started it over there...

"God Save the Queen!"--Johnny Rotten

B-)

[vi5]

15. No Stooges? MC5?

I'm not a superfan of either band, but they definitely kicked off the movement that became punk.

As far as the puk sound as we know it today it would be the Ramones.

As for the lifestyle and political bent and DIY ethic it would be Black Flag or Crass.

[FDRrocks]

16. Well

It's a toss up b/t the Pistols and Ramones for me. I will go with Ramones almost everytime... because the Sex Pistols were basically a major label formula band, put together by this guy name Malcolm McClaren (Sp?) who owned a fringe clothing store.

[Character Assassin]

17. Here we go: The Velvet Underground, Tom Verlaine, Link Ray, The Stooges

The MC5, Patti Smith, Richard Hell, Roxy Music, Jonathan Richman, the New York Dolls, The Fugs (my GOD, were they bad), The Faces, Mott the Hoople, David Bowie.....

And I may have forgotten some.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. Jonathan Richman-he still plays out

He's from Natick, MA. 'Roadrunner' is one of my all-time favorite songs.

[Character Assassin]

35. And 'Pablo Picasso'.....

[Radical__Moderate]

51. I hoping someone would mention Jonathan Richman

The first recorded song by the Pistols is Roadrunner

Hearing Johny rotten sing about 128 and Stop and Shop, wow.

[Rich Hunt]

57. Link Wray!

I forgot about him - yes.

Link Wray and other instrumentalists influenced the punks of the sixties, so yes - Link Wray was a pioneer of punk, although he wasn't about the punk attitude and aesthetics.

[Loonman]

18. I should have said "marketed as "punk"

Because although the MC5 and the Stooges came sooner, they weren't thought of or marketed as anything new.

[Scurrilous]

19. The Who!

Their song 'Substitute' had all the hallmarks of a great punk rock song.

[soupkitchen]

75. Absolutely the first to put punk into rock

One of the reasons many consider them the best, as in the truest, rock&roll band ever,

[quispquake]

20. The Stooges

Definitely...(MC5 too, but the Stooges had more of the Punk Attitude).

They've gotten together for a few shows again (Original Stooges minus Dave Alexander), and I've heard a coupla boots that sound REALLY GOOD! These guys may not be as young as they used to be, but they still have that punk attitude!!!

21. re: Stooges / punk connections

I heard Mike Watt from the Minutemen is playing bass for the Stooges these days.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

22. Iggy

[ACK]

23. Iggy Pop and the Stooges

The Sex Pistols after that sure but Iggy was the grandpappy of Punk.

Easy. Next question.

[Clovis Sangrail]

24. Define 'Punk'

Anti-authoritarian?
LONG before the the 70's

Anti-establishment?
LONG before the the 70's

Anti-mainstream?
LONG before the the 70's

Sonic disonance?
LONG before the the 70's

EVERY 'punk' group has necessary predecessors, as any group in any other genre.

The point is no one group 'started it', 'it' is the product of an evolutionary process that started with the first people who used music as a tool of expression.

[tinrobot]

26. Sex Pistols totally aped the Ramones...

Famous story about how the July 4th 1976 Ramones concert in London inspired every British punk, including the Sex Pistols...

Iggy and MC5 were proto-punk, but MC5 really sold out on the second album... Iggy was just out there...

New York Dolls were glam... to prissy to be punks...

Yep, it's The Ramones. They really codified the style and attitude.

[Loonman]

27. Johnny speaks

"There was not one single hand clap. The college audience had never seen anything like it. They couldn't connect with where we were coming from because our stance was so anti-pop, so anti-everything that had gone on before. Adam may look back on it all rather sweetly by saying he split up his band after seeing us play, but the reality was that he was very bitter and annoyed with us - as indeed most bands were that played with us. Adam Ant's band was furiously jealous because they spent so much time sewing up those silly silver jackets. I didn't care. We didn't do it to be loved."

John Lydon


"Actually, we're not into music... we're into chaos."

Steve Jones


"It was fucking wild. I was so nervous I took a mandrax. When we started playing the mandrax was hitting me and I cranked the amp up. It was a 100-watt amp in a little room with no stage and it was great. Everyone was looking at us. It seemed like millions of people at the time. You could tell there was a buzz."

Steve Jones



"I don't need a Rolls Royce, I don't need a house in the country, I don't want to have to live in France. I don't have any rock and roll heroes; they're all useless. The Stones and The Who don't mean anything anymore; they're established. The Stones are more of a business than a band"

(Johnny Rotten - December, 1976)



"Turn the cheek to often and you get a razor through it"

-John lydon


"If people get me wrong, thats their problem. When they start going out in the streets looking for me, thats a differant kettle of fish...it's pathetic"

-John Lydon


"Don't except old order...get rid of it!"

-John Lydon


"Words are my weapons, violence I'm not very good at"

-John Lydon


On religion- " They brainwash you, they don't educate you. They don't teach you nothing. Everything you learn, you learn yourself.They try and take away your brain. They try to make you like everyone else. Just one great mass thats easily controlled.

"They don't like individuals, they don't like people who stick up for themselves. If you have an opinion at an early age in secondary school, they fucking get you for it bad. And they tend to be the ones who are the most violent."

- Rotton

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. Punk Rock is an American Music Genre Co-Opted and Perfected by the Brits

Punk started in the '60s with the Velvet Underground and Garage Rock, and in the '70s the MC5 and Stooges carried that tradition on. In NYC, bands like the New York Dolls, Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, Television, Suicide, Patti Smith, and the Dictators truly embodied the punk spirit. In my hometown of Boston, there were many punk bands in the mid-and late-'70s: The Real Kids, Willi 'Loco' Alexander, LaPeste, Human Sexual Response, the Neighborhoods, The Lyres, The Classic Ruins, and Mission of Burma.

The Ramones toured the UK in 1975 and many British punks credit them for inspiration. Technically, the first British punk single was the Damned's 'New Rose'. The Pistols formed later than the Damned and many other seminal punk bands. As American punk splintered off into hardcore and New Wave, the Brits perfected their version of punk.

Just my $.02

31. the Lyres?

Are they still playing at all in Boston?
Saw them 3 or 4 years ago in NYC, but haven't heard anything about them recently.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. The Lyres are still around-first single was released in 1975!

I really loved them as a kid...

[quispquake]

40. I still love the Lyres...

Saw them a whole bunch of times...I have to say, the best shows were the one where Monoman got shitfaced...I saw him once, and the band wasn't really clicking...he started hitting a bottle of jack, and 15 minutes later it turned into one of the greatest rock and roll shows EVER...what a solid groove!!!

[ACK]

37. Perfected? Nah though the Clash were good

Most Brit punk after the old school Pistols and Clash stuff was too political and stylized to have the real lasting influence.

After the Ramones and the Sex Pistols the punk scene had to wait for the genre to reach the West Coast of the USA to really take its next step into hardcore punk.

After that, it had to go into the wilds of places like San Pedro and Minneapolis before postpunk really took form.

Plus, Brit punk went straight down the same new wave fushion/fashion route and then you had many of them completely selling out like the Police that started off punk.

Perfected? They were good but not perfect by any means.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

76. Mission of Burma!

cool

[XNASA]

30. Punk was invented in Cleveland by....

...the Electric Eels with the Dead Boys closely on their heels.

The Ramones were not a punk band.
The Pistols were created as a reaction to the punk movement.
The Dolls were really a glam-rock band.
And Iggy has stated that he does not consider the Stooges a punk band so I'll have to agree with him, since he's so great.

MC5? Maybe, but they don't predate the Eels, as far as I know.

Oops, I stand corrected. The MC5 do predate the Eels, but I'm not sure that they invented Punk.

In any case, Punk was invented in the Cleveland/Detroit rustbelt circa 1972. I mean, where else could it have come from???

[Kathy in Cambridge]

33. The Ramones were a punk band

their first album is three-chord teenage angst. They did take a lot from '60s pop music, but so did bands like the Buzzcocks and Clash.

[XNASA]

36. I respectfully disagree.

The Ramones were a cartoon punk band.

Anybody who would let Phil Specter produce, or should I say "overproduce" one of their albums, can not be a punk band.

Any band that would appear in "Rock and Roll High School", can not be a punk band.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the Ramones, but I still never bought any of their product because quite frankly, I never considered them to be genuine.

It's just one old punks opinion.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

39. I agree with you about their later albums

but their first album is pretty crude-none of them could play their instruments. They talked about suicide and sniffing glue and Nazis-how much more teenage angst do they need to qualify as punk?

I saw them at the Rat in the late '70s (I was in early high school). They were a punk band back then. The later stuff is too poppy for me as well!

[ACK]

41. You are the only one then...

Most punkers in both the music world and the bands themselves respectfully list the Ramones as a punk band.

Come on .. Shenna is a Punk Rocker .. man.

That is classic.

There were tons of cartoon punk bands and humorous songs have a long legacy through the hardcore era with bands like the Circle Jerks, Suicidal Tendencies and the Butthole Surfers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

45. Angry Samoans, Decendents, Agent Orange

I loved the Angry Samoans: "My Old Man's A Fatso" and "Lights Out"

We had this early hardcore band here (from Cape Cod, no less), who sang "I Hate Tourists"....no if only I can remember their name...

[ACK]

48. Harcore Punk Vol 1

by Rhino

Repo Man Soundtrack

I love that stuff.

I prefer mostly compilations when it comes to hardcore punk except for the classics like Bad Brainz, Dead Kennedy's and Black Flag.

[Clovis Sangrail]

67. THE FREEZE!!!!!

The other classics they had were Refridgerator Heaven and Broken Bones


-
They beat me quick and bloody,
saying "you know that punk is dead"
They asked me what I thought of that
"Fuck off" was all I said

[Rich Hunt]

59. exactly

The "trash" aesthetic goes back to the sixties. The Ramones were certainly punk in all aesthetic senses of the word - certainly Joey Ramone was.

The original punks weren't anti-Phil Spector or anti-teenage music at all. They were anti-hippie.

[Whitacre D_WI]

46. Come on...

You forgot Rocket from the Tombs.

[XNASA]

50. I didn't forget about RFTT.

But I thought the reference was too obscure.

It's good to see that they've been playing out a bit.

52. while we're in the rustbelt

I was also thinking about Devo from Akron.

& aside from the music, I think they represent an interesting juxtaposition since they started out as hippie idealists in college.
Then a couple of friends of theirs (fellow students where they were) got killed by some Americans at Kent State & in response they cooked up the concept of Devolution.

Friend of mine saw them in London in 77. They might have influenced English punk in some sense as a result (the later Gang of Four type stuff)

& just occurred to me that Neil Young was doing stuff with Devo round that time. Wonder if that's where he got the concept of Rust Never Sleeps from -- that is, the Rust Belt.

[ProfessorGAC]

81. I Say Emerson, Lake & Palmer, & The Allman Bros.

Punk was an obvious backlash against overly complex, overproduced concept albums (ELP and Yes, et al) and 12 minute guitar solos.

While i actually like the bands i mentioned in the title, i've always thought that the "back to roots" aspect of punk was a reaction to the feeling that the music had gotten pompous (and i know pompous).

So, i give credit to the leading purveyors of the form of music that triggered the visceral reaction that became punk.

Sort of a sideways credidation.
The Professor

[Screaming Lord Byron]

38. Definitely Huey Lewis and the News.

Or perhaps Foreigner.

[quispquake]

42. Scary enuff, Elvis Costello's backing band on his first album...

were Clover, featuring HUEY LEWIS!!!

Ain't rock and roll grand???

[Kathy in Cambridge]

43. LMAO-I HOPE you're joking!

:-)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

47. Why would I be joking? I'd add REO Speedwagon to my list.

[ACK]

44. I realized Rolling Stone sucked when

They had Huey Lewis and the News on the cover twice in one year.

That guy looked like someone my dad would have golf with not someone you rock out to.

What horrible evil shit excuse for music that was.

[GregW]

61. You bastard!

Get over here and clean the coffee off this monitor!

[Zorra]

49. The Music Machine

Ever heard a tune called "Talk Talk"?

[Rich Hunt]

58. yes!

That was the original punk. The term was used long before the Ramones, et al. came around.

Although there were a lot of bands working that sound at the time.

[Brotherjohn]

54. If I were going by your revised "marketed as punk" standard... Sex Pistols

No one (at the time) was more marketed as punk than the Sex Pistols. In many ways, they were simply a creation of Malcom McLaren's to sell bondage clothing. They certainly rode their limited talent on the "punk" wagon more than anyone else of the time.

But if I had to pick the first "punk" band: Modern Lovers. Someone's point above about the first Sex Pistols' recording being "Roadrunner" only backs up that assertion.

That being said, there are as many definitions of "punk" as there are old punks out there. Truth be told, punk evolved. There wasn't some magic moment where it came into being, nor one band that "invented" it.

55. You're making too much sense

stop making sense:) :wtf: :crazy: :smoke:

Evolved?
How could the bastard child of beautiful rock n roll Evolve?
I thought it sprang forth in all its ugly glory, a mutation we love.

[Brotherjohn]

72. Okay, if rock'n'roll was one parent of this bastard child...

who was the other?

TV?

Vietnam?

A "virgin birth" in the form of rock'n'roll vomiting it's punk baby up after being driven to nausea by one too many playing of Michael Martin Murphey's "Wildfire"?

I vote the latter.

[Rich Hunt]

56. none of those

Punk started in the sixties. The Kinks had the first punk rock song. American bands came along who were influenced by the Kinks and the Who, along with American folk and rhythm and blues. This sound in turn influenced the bands that are thought of as the first punk bands.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

60. Wrong. 'Louie Louie' was a major inflence on The Kinks, predating them.

[Rich Hunt]

63. I guess it depends

I always thought of "Louie Louie" as more frat rock, whereas "You Really Got Me" is aesthetically different - the guitar is louder and sharper.

I'm not "wrong", either -it's an aesthetic quibble.

I have the Kingsmen LP and it's 1) not snarly and has no attitude and 2) it's a bore.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

64. Yes you are. You're totally wrong. Couldn't in fact be wronger.

In fact, this is the most wrong you've ever been.

Let me explain it on a map.

(Points to Alaska) Here is right.

(Points to New Zealand) Here you are.

So you're about as far from right as you could possibly be.

(OK, maybe I shouldn't have been as heavy handed with the whole wrong thing, apologies)

65. check out

the Sonics version of Louie Louie from the same time. It is snarly and does have attitude. & their little ditty Strychnine....

http://www.history-of-rock.com/sonics.htm

"For those who are not familiar with the Sonics, the first lines of “Strychnine” give a nice impression of their world: “some people like water / some people like wine / but I like the taste ... / ... of straight Strychnine”

Their second album was not that frantic, but still fantastically good - (their "Louie Louie" is really the best version ever recorded!) In 1966 they were the opening act for the Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, Jay & the Americans, Ray Stevens, Herman's Hermits, the Righteous Brothers, the Kinks, Lovin' Spoonful, Mamas & Papas and the Byrds. They also played together with another garage band, the Liverpool 5 and the female trio, Shangri-Las."

on edit, I just found this list of bands who have covered Strychnine. Sez it all....
Strychnine covered by Fall
Strychnine covered by Cramps
Strychnine ? covered by Headcoates
Strychnine covered by Fuzztones
Strychnine covered by Flaming Lips
Strychnine ? covered by Vindictives
Strychnine ? covered by Lolitas
Strychnine ? covered by Poison 13

[Rich Hunt]

66. yes, I'm a fan of the Sonics

From allmusic:

Forming in the wake of the early-'60s success of local favorites the Kingsmen and the Wailers (whose Etiquette label they recorded for), the Sonics combined the classic Northwest-area teen-band raunch with early English band grit (particularly influenced by the Kinks),

I have a zillion garage albums from the sixties (don't need to "check out" anything here), and the number of Kinks / Who ripoffs are astounding.

Not that the American bands shouldn't be given credit, though. Punk is American in spirit - it goes back to hillbilly music and rhythm & blues.

68. cool

:toast:

and rereading your last line about hillbilly reminds me of another proto-punk (in the garage sense) band whose influences go wayback
-- the Sir Douglas Quintet

[Rich Hunt]

69. I changed my mind...

:)


How about Eddie Cochran?

I'm a-gonna raise a fuss, I'm a-gonna raise a holler
About a-workin' all summer just to try to earn a dollar
Well one time I called my baby, tried to get a date
My boss says, no dice son, you gotta work late
Sometimes I wonder, what I'm a-gonna do
But there ain't no cure for the summertime blues

Oh well my main and papa told me
Son you gotta make some money
If you wanna use the car to go ridin' next sunday
Well I didn't go to work, told the boss I was sick
Now you can't use the car 'cause you didn't work a-late
Sometimes I wonder, what I'm a-gonna do
But there ain't no cure for the summertime blues

I'm gonna take two weeks, gonna have a fine vacation
I'm gonna take my problem to the United Nations
Well I called my congresman and he said quote
I'd like to help you son, but you're too young to vote
Sometimes I wonder, what I'm a-gonna do
But there ain't no cure for the summertime blues

This debate can go on and on ... just as long as the fifties & sixties people get their credit, I'm happy!

71. Blue Cheer

not really punk, but loved their version of Summertime Blues.
as well as Who's from Live at Leeds

[corarose]

62. I will SETTLE this once and for all

THE NEW YORK DOLLS!

[Rich Hunt]

70. here's a link

Here's a link about this whole debate.

http://www.listology.com/content_show.cfm?content_id=5848&highlight_txt=

I thought it was good reading.

[corarose]

73. They didn't mention the NY Dolls

I went to see the NY Dolls in grade school and yes my Sister did sneak me in to the hall.
They were as punk as punk could be or were they transvestites?
Sylvain Sylvain haded me a bottle of Champaign and told this other girl that was grabbing the bottle out of my too young to drink hand "Ladies First".

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

78. The Ramones

Hands down.

[geniph]

79. A case could be made for Love out of LA

but my own preference is for the Velvets as the true progenitors.

[AmandaRuth]

80. The Standells

think that is how you spell it. "Good Guys don't wear White"

[Loonman]

82. Johnny speaks, again

'Rock n' roll is over, don't you understand? It's gone on for twenty five years, and it's got to be cancelled. The Pistols finished rock n' roll; they were the last rock n' roll band. It's over now, done with. And it was all quite a long time ago, when you think about it'

On England...
'What's this country done for us?.'

On love...
'Love is two minutes and fifty two seconds of squelching noises'
In the Daily Mirror in 1983, Rotten said that owing to a new found technique, the time was now about five minutes.

'It's power that runs any country; you can't change things overnight with a hit record. Rock singers getting into politics is rather stupid...'

'I'd love to have been born into a wealthy family. I might have turned out even more marvellous than I am now...'

Q: Why aren't the B- sides on the album (Never Mind The Bollocks)
A: They were available as singles. If they wanted them, then they had the chance. If they miss them now, that's just too bad. There's nothing I can do about it and I don't really care.'

'Joey Ramone was slagging us off for reforming, saying we're too old, I mean that's hilarious. He must be 48, and he's apparently the youngest one of them.I love the way they like to point fingers and leave out the facts. The Ramones were nothing more than art school brats, the lot of them. Spoilt little middle class kids.'

Q: Have you ever thought of giving money to anyone less fortunate than yourself?
A: 'I don't know anyone less fortunate than myself.'

Q: So why should people watch it? (Rotten TV)
A: I don't know or care.

'Public Image was written about all the Pistols fans and others who just wanted me to carry on as before. I have never ever been interested in repeating myself, and so many people by their attitude, had completely missed th point of the Pistols. It was a mind thing not a bleedin fashion statement.'

'As for PiL - I always wanted it/them/me to be an influence - and to be influenced, but never imitate. I wanted PiL to always stand above and beyond what might happen to be currently fashionable.'

'If it comes down to it and we really can't get on, then thats it. Bye-bye. Fuck off. (96 reunion)

'Fergie is the clash of the royal family.'

'Finsbury Park is a field not a stadium'

Q: Is there any kind of audience you'd particularly like to see? (96 reunion)
A: 'Lady Di. Because she's been doing some wonderful kick up the arse jobs to the royal family. She's absolutely excellent. She's a true Sex Pistol.'

'I aint seen no evidence of God. Nowhere. Have you?...God is probably Barry Manilow...'

'I've definetely(sic) gone against the grain my whole life. I always will: there isn't a neat little hole for me to fit into...

''Celebrity is not the motivation. I love making records

'My favourite programme is Crossroads. It's the most badly acted, funniest comedy I've ever seen.
Hopefully I intend to get an acting part on Crossroads'

I've given up collecting records because there isn't much around anymore that I want. I never go out; there's nowhere to go'

A fake trend of sheep in chains and leather don't make a change from a sea of denim. It's all still uniforms.'

'Punk became a circus didn't it?...It ended up with people selling dresses made of safety pins for $2000. Everybody got it wrong. The message was supposed to be; Don't follow us, do what you want!...

[mitchum]

83. STEPHEN FOSTER

everyone else followed in his wake