Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame

[madinmaryland]

Let's face it, the records he set, were done without the benefit any drugs!

Let him in dammit.

Just never let him in to participate in the game.

[JVS]

1. What part of "Banished from baseball" don't people understand?

Let no trace remain of his existence!

[kick-ass-bob]

2. It ain't lookin good for Petey here on DU.

:P

[warrens]

20. Unrepentant, smug, out for No. 1 asshole

After Joe Jackson gets in (if hitting .400 is throwing the series, what exactly is "doing well?"), we can let Pete sit out for another 80 years. THEN let him in.

This is a guy who doesn't learn lessons real well. Five minutes after he got in, he'd be back hanging around the park, trying to pick up tips on whose elbow is hurting.

[henslee]

102. What do smug, unrepentent and being an asshole have to do with anything?

Rose was electrifying. He was Charlie Hustle. He set many records and lead his team to the world series. He had uncanny skills and a one of a kind baseball mind. He loved the game. And still does. His was a strange journey. But he fell hard, very publically. When do we forgive him? Never? How much remorse is a guy supposed to show? I love the guy, whether he's a prick or not.

[TomInTib]

110. Hey, this isn't about Barry Bonds nt

[LynneSin]

21. Good - then give a boot to all these folks using Steroids

which have had more of a negative impact that what Pete Rose did.

McGwire & Bonds - banish all existance of them from all Hall-of-Fame endeavors because no roid-head should be allowed to have any baseball record since obviously the roids gave said ballplayers an advantage to hitting homeruns

[JVS]

28. Fine with me

Kick them out.

[kick-ass-bob]

38. And don't think that it won't happen.

But not over night.

[Richard Steele]

137. I totally agree- kick the steroid using CHEATERS out on their butts.

Banish them from baseball, scrub their stats from the record books.

And if you really wanna end the cheating, have some smart lawyer
find a way to SUE them until they have to pay back all the
Million$ they recieved while they were cheating.

[Parrcrow]

3. Only if Joe Jackson goes in first

and the other Black Sox are considered for it.

Possibly (slim possibility), make it a life-time ban. Let him be eligible only after he has passed away. That way he'd be unable to capitalize on it.

[LynneSin]

24. I think Shoeless Joe and Pete should go in together

I agree, Shoeless JOe needs to be in there too!

[dr.strangelove]

52. I will never understand the love for Shoeless Joe

There is no doubt as to the play of Joe Jackson, he was possibly the best left handed hitter of all time. But he threw baseball games for money. He admitted it. I don't care how good he was. The Hall of Fame is about honoring people who contributed to the game. Once an action like throwing a game, in this case the World Series, is established, it destroys the contributions you made before it. The whole career must be considered, not the pre-jerk career. There is plenty of Joe Jackson in the museum connected to the HOF. Several of his bats are there, his homerume ball off Base Ruth in 1917 is in there and there are hundreds of pictures and stat memorials to his greatness as a player. Enshrinement in the HOF is reserved for those whose whole career garners the votes of 75% of the voters.

[WeRQ4U]

71. Are you sure that he admitted to throwing the game?

I thought that he admitted to taking money and that's it. His numbers during the series certainly don't reflect him throwing anything.

Either way, if true, Joe Jackson did something dispicable as a PLAYER. Pete Rose did his worst after his playing days were over. Even though I wish both were in the hall, I don't think they are a valid comparison.

[dr.strangelove]

74. The missing papers

Joe Jackson allegedly signed an admission that he accepted money to throw the world series and lived up to his end of the deal (meaning he received money and played beneath his ability). This document was "lost." Its existence is considered by almost everyone as absolute, since everyone involved (The D.A. investigating the matter, the Sox lawyer, the lawyer for the plaintiff in the underlying civil suit, and Jackson himself have stated he signed the document). So if you believe all that, then yes he admitted that he threw the games for money. Also, if you look at the series stats, it is pretty clear that he played very poorly in the games he threw. The records show that the sox players tried to lose three games, but for a great pitching performance in the third game, they would have. They then lost two more and realized they would not be paid any more. They lost one more game despite trying to win. In the games he tried to win, Jackson played like one of th best ever. In the other games, he hit like shit, blew three fielders choices and played terrible in the field and running the bases. Joe Jackson threw the series for money. I don't want him in the HOF, even after he is dead. It was a scummy thing to do.

I never compare Rose to Jackson. Though I think Rose should be banned too. He did bet on games that he played and has admitted it in his book (which was not a very good book). He claims to have never thrown a game, but there are several instances where it looks bad. He also denies betting against the Reds, but there is ample evidence that he did that as well. The HOF is a private institution who has achieved more respect than any other similar organization because of its standards. I certainly would not vote for either of these men for admission, and I don't blame MLB or the HOF for not even making them eligible.

[WeRQ4U]

88. Ok, that was it.

I couldn't remember how that went.

[Shell Beau]

4. That is a toughie for me. He is one of the greatest and does

deserve to be in the hall of fame. But if he bet on baseball (and he did), that is totally against the rules and guidelines. But I also agree that if you are a steroid head then you don't deserve it either.

[Loonman]

5. Petey should have thought about that

Before he called his bookie.

Sorry, Charlie.

[Caution]

6. There is one hard and absolute rule in baseball and everyone knows it

Don't bet on baseball. Period.

Pete Rose knew this and did it anyway. No HOF for him now or ever. I don't think Joe Jackson belongs in either. The only guy I can think of who was banned from baseball who might have a case is Buck Weaver and even that one makes me uneasy.

[maveric]

10. He didnt throw any games as a PLAYER, did he?

In fact he claims that he never bet against his team.

[Caution]

13. But he did bet ON the Reds

So...did he favor pitching matchups when he had money on the game? Did he alter lineups? Did he take more/less chances on those games? Did he give his best effort as a manager on games he didn't bet on?

Can we as fans of the game ever really know which games he managed in were actually 100% honest anymore?

He says he didn't bet while he was a player. He also said for years that he never bet on baseball at all. Where is the truth? Can we trust that he didn't bet on baseball while he was a player? Trust has to be earned and he lied to us for literally decades.

He bet on baseball. He's out. Period.

[maveric]

16. Based on his stats as a player, it doesnt look like he threw many games.

The man with more base hits than any other in Major League baseball belongs in the Hall, regardless of what he did afet his playing days were over!
Just my 2 cents!

[Caution]

41. How about this game?

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B10020CIN1976.htm

He went 0-4 and the Reds lost 3-0 to the Atlanta Braves. I'm sure the Big Red Machine was heavily favored that day since for the season they 23-16, they were coming off a world series victory and the Braves were 16-25 and on their way to last place in the NL West

Can you honestly say for sure that he didn't purposefully tank his performance that day with a bet on the line? He probably didn't but there is no way of knowing and with his track record of being a complete liar could you really believe him?

Before you answer, how about THIS game? http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B10020CIN1977.htm

Last game of the season, once more against the hapless Braves, 1st place locked up and Pete Rose goes 1-3 with 2 errors. The Braves win a game where the Reds were no doubt heavily favored and Pete Rose's error leads directly to what turned out to be the winning run. Still sure about Pete Rose? Care to bet on it?

I have no evidence that Pete Rose ever intentionally threw a game, I do have plenty of evidence that he bet on baseball and that he lied about it for years. Every single ballplayer is told about the one golden rule. Break it and you are out. Period.

[maveric]

46. Great players have bad games. Even in the big ones.

Ted Williams was in one World Series and hit .200. It happens.

[kick-ass-bob]

48. But you cannot say that he didn't throw games.

Hell, that Arizona State guy was in on point shaving while he was scoring 30 points a game. You could never determine from his play that this was going on.

He could go 4-5, but his 4 hits are when no one is on base, and the one time it matters, he grounded into a DP.

Stats from games don't matter, and neither of the 2 of you can prove what you are saying.

We just have to go on what was proven - that as a manager, he bet on his own team, and not every day.

[Caution]

51. Sure does but Ted Williams isn't a proven liar about his gambling

Pete Rose is. Can you say without a shadow of a doubt that his performance in those two games had nothing to do with gambling? In any of his other games? Can't you just see Mr. Rose on the last day of that season with his bookie. "Hey I know I owe you a ton of cash for this season's debts and even though I never bet on my own games this one time I'll tank this game and only you know about it. The season is in the bag for the Reds, but you'll be able to put bets all over town on this one knowing that I'll blow this game. That should make us square."

Conspiracy theory? Absolutely. But hey we know the guy bet on baseball. We know he lied constantly about having done so. When I visit the hall I do so knowing that each of the people enshrined therein did something to make the game better than it was. All of them were imperfect but none that we know of violated the golden rule of baseball and that's how it should be in my opinion. The day they put Rose in the Hall is the day I stop going.

[JVS]

69. That's the insidious thing about gambling. Only in its absence...

can you be sure that a bad game is merely a bad game. Which is why it cannot be tolerated.

[JVS]

70. dupe

[underpants]

7. The Hall is a fraud without Pete in it

THE role model (on the field) for an entire generation.

[MadHound]

18. Sorry, but you just can't consider the athlete on the field

Athletes, whether they like it or not, are role models and heroes both on and off the field. If he hadn't been betting on baseball, all would have been golden. Hell, he could have played the ponies, bet on football, hockey, basketball, women's lacrosse for Pete's sake. But nooooo, he had to go and bet on the sport, and team, that he played in.

Sorry, but the hall would be a travesty with Pete in it. The man was stupid, foolish, and tarnished his own reputation. Let him live with the consequences.

[henslee]

103. Amen. You said it. He was hard nosed and all hustle.

[JVS]

104. Thanks to the amphetimines

[henslee]

106. Really? First, Johnny Cash. Now Pete Rose? Are all my heroes tweakers?

Sigh.

[JVS]

107. Yeah, check out post 85

[eyepaddle]

8. No, he broke the one absolute cardinal rule of baseball

His gambling (even on games he wasn't involved in at the time) could well have affected how he approached managing the games he WAS involved with. Plus he's been a complete ass for most of the time since he's been caught.

Major League Baseball (particularly recently) has made many monumentally stupid decisions, but none would approach the level of sending the message that whole endeavour could be fixed and a sham. TAHT'S why they won't relent.

[madinmaryland]

11. As I recall, he never bet on baseball

when he was playing. The only time was when he was managing? Can they induct you for what you did as a player and not as a manager? I mixed as to whether he should be in or not.

I do agree that he should never be involved at ANY decision level in baseball again.

[eyepaddle]

12. I think their position is you are you, whether on the field or off

as long as it's still involved with baseball. Betting on games (even if your team isn't playing) can still affect how you manage, for example saving players and altering your line-ups.

The rule about no betting was absolute and in place before Pete made he decision.

On a side note, whenever I hear voting members of the Baseball Writers of America talk about Pete Rose it usually, heck, invariably, sounds pretty harsh. I think Pete's gonna just have to live without being in Cooperstown.

Definitely one of the all time great players, but I don't think he could've pissed off the group who's support he needs now more if he would've tried to plan it.

[madinmaryland]

17. As I said, I am mixed about whether he should be given

a shot at the Hall.

Also, he has not helped himself since the banishment, by continuing the charade of whether or not he did gamble, even though it was shown that he did. I think if he could have come clean much sooner, rather than the sleazy way that he has acted, then he would have had a chance to get in.

Also, I was a Pirates fan during the 70's and absolutely hated the reds and pete rose. go figure.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. The Dowd Report Says Otherwise

It says explicitly that he did, and that he bet on his own team when he was the manager.
The Professor

[maveric]

9. He should be enshrined for his performance as a PLAYER!

What he did after he retired should have no bearing on his career as a PLAYER.
If there are drunks, racists and murderers in the Hall then Pete should be there soley based on his PLAYING career.

[bigwillq]

14. I think Pete should be in.

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, they will all be likely in. Why shouldn't Pete?????

Yes, betting on baseball is a ver ybad thing to do. Poor judgement.
But during his playing days, his performance was Hall of Fame worthy.

[KitchenWitch]

15. Most definitely

Surely everyone in the Hall is not a saint. Just sayin'

[Taverner]

19. He did some bad things, but he was an amazing baseball player

And quite possibly the best that ever was.....

He deserves it on talent alone...

[democracyindanger]

22. No way: Two simple reasons.

1) People need to remember that gambling nearly destroyed baseball. There's a reason the punishments are so severe. Refamiliarize yourself with the Black Sox.

2) No player is bigger than the game. Rose thinks he is. After all these years, he still doesn't show any real remorse, has never truly owned up to what he did, and uses the controversy to make a buck.

[LynneSin]

25. Oh, so I guess all these Roid heads are good for baseball

along with the wife-beating (Ty Cobb) and other illicit drugs.

The game was nearly destroyed almost EIGHTY years ago. Don't you think it's time we take another look at the game and maybe join the 21st century. Gambling was a crime back in 1919 but hell I pass a casino everyday when I go to work and I can spend my entire paycheck on lottery tickets.

But Steroids are ruining the game because you don't have to have talent to win home-run titles, just a body filled with drugs to enhance your power so you can swing harder at the plate.

[democracyindanger]

31. Did I say that?

I'm rereading my post...and...nope, I never brought up steroids. Or wife-beater AND Klansman Ty Cobb. Or illicit drug use. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

You want to start a steroids in baseball thread? I'll be happy to offer up my thoughts on that when you do. Meanwhile, Rose remains a great player who committed one of the greatest sins of professional sports, and refuses to show any remorse or come clean.

[kick-ass-bob]

36. So exactly how many steroid using players are in the HoF?

We have just seen the start of suspensions for steroids, I'm sure there will be real consequences for steroid use in the not-so-distant future.

80 years ago, they cleaned up gambling pretty quickly. Why? They didn't have to deal with a players union. Now, you are going to have to go through more processes, but I sure wouldn't doubt that a banishment for steroid use won't come.

[madinmaryland]

26. If he had shown some remorse for what he had done,

I think he might have been eligible for the Hall. He has only seemed to be interested in trying to make a buck off of his name.

[LynneSin]

23. So I'm guess you folks are fine with people like McGwire & Bonds

getting in the Hall-of-Fame even though their use of steroids benefited them so they could hit an excess of home-runs and thus breaking records.

What Pete Rose the player did was hit 4256 hits, the most in baseball and therefore he should be in the Hall of Fame

What Pete Rose the manager did was bet on games including probably Reds games and therefore Pete Rose the manager should not be in the Hall of Fame. Of course with his record he probably wouldn't have gotten in there anyways.

Steroids have done more negative impact on the game of baseball than gambling ever has. The choice of lifetime banishment was based on rash decisioning from a game that was played almost 80 years ago. Maybe it's time we revisit the rule books and figure out what is wrong with the game TODAY and create rules that will make the game more fair.

[madinmaryland]

27. I'm not fine with Bonds, et.al.

Unfortunately they were able to pump up their records legally (by baseball standards). Sounds like we could have a whole thread just on the steroid issue.

[LynneSin]

29. They are what is ruining the game today

Not some hokey puritan standard from 1919.

[madinmaryland]

32. If you are gambling as either a player or manager

you should be kicked out. That should not exclude you from the HoF though.

[kick-ass-bob]

37. It ain't hokey to bet on your own team that you have power over

how the game is determined.

[LynneSin]

42. It ain't hokey to beef up through illegal substances just to ding ....

...a few home runs either

[kick-ass-bob]

43. have you read any of my other posts?

[LynneSin]

45. Yeah, I'm still friend from working DBs

sorry hun

:cry:

[kick-ass-bob]

49. .

:hug:

[LynneSin]

64. I so needed that today

:cry:

I had my whole work day planned out with getting much work done and I was stuck fixing these problems!

[JVS]

30. That's total bullshit you're spouting

Being against re-admission to the world of baseball for Rose in no way implies a willingness to tolerate other rule breakers.

[StopTheMorans]

34. .

:thumbsup:

[ProfessorGAC]

35. Which One Of Them Is In The Hall Of Fame, Lynne?

Neither. Besides, while i can't deny his ability to make contact and hit singles, he wasn't that good a ballplayer overall. He was a one tool player. Great hand-eye coordination in the body and brain of a neaderthal.

The Reds could not WAIT for Joe Morgan and Tony Perez to be ready for the bigs to get Pete off of 2nd or 3rd base. He was an AWFUL infielder, and at Philly, they hid him at first base, where he was the worst first baseman in the league (zero range, and not very good at the scoop) for years.

He impressed a lot of people with that "hustle" nonsense, because he RAN on a base on balls. Of course, the other name for the BB is the "WALK". That was grandstanding nonsense, apropos of nothing.

He cheated. He lied. He was a jailbird. No HoF for him, AFAIC.
The Professor

[WeRQ4U]

39. I'm with you.

This garbage about taking his "character" into consideration is just that.......garbage. The hall is filled with people with questionable character. Ty Cobb was a bigot, an asshole, a drunk and a womanizer.....but he could hit a baseball. That's what the hall is for. Believe me, everyone knows that Pete Rose was a dickhead, but they also know that he has the record for hits.

[kick-ass-bob]

40. A dickhead who bet on his own team while on the field/ in the dugout.

It's not about character, it's about the rule to protect the integrity of the sport.

[WeRQ4U]

44. They've already kicked him out of baseball, never to return.

The hall is simply an award to reflect his life on the field, as a player. Him being there does NOTHING to effect the integrity, the rules, the procedure.......nothing at all. Without the game's best hitter, the hall is worthless, betting or not.

[kick-ass-bob]

47. but the game and the HoF are completely intertwined.

You can't separate the two.

Why isn't Shoeless Joe in it? Same reason.

[madinmaryland]

50. I think both shoeless joe and pete rose should be in the HoF.

Its an antiquated rule, (sounds like a Gonzalez comment). The hall and actually participating in the game should be two different things.

[kick-ass-bob]

53. So would Pete Rose get to participate in the HoF induction?

Because that is participating in the game.

[madinmaryland]

54. I think that is really splitting hairs.

He may be "participating" in the game by being there (as he has been for other celebrations in the last few years), but he would have no actual participation in the way the game is played or managed.

[kick-ass-bob]

57. Not splitting hairs at all. Either he is in baseball or he isn't.

AFAIK, he cannot even set foot into a baseball stadium - why should he get to go to that?

Keep him out till he's dead, unless someone reinstates him.

[JVS]

60. All power to the commisioner!

[madinmaryland]

67. He's been in a stadium a few times in the last few years.

I think they were 100 greatest players or something like that. The big sponsors wanted him there.

[WeRQ4U]

56. Come on now.

That's not "participating in baseball" any more than going on "Best Damn Sports Show Period" and talking about the HoF would be. He isn't being paid. He's not part of the union. He's not offiliated with baseball at all. That's kind a ridiculous comparison.

[kick-ass-bob]

58. Like I just said upthread, that IS participating in official baseball

whatever you want to call it. A talk show is nowhere near the same thing as attending (and speaking) at an induction.

[WeRQ4U]

61. So don't let him have an induction ceremony if that's so intertwined.

Just vote him in. Give him a plaque. Don't even let him in the building to see it if you don't want to. It doesn't matter to me. But as I said before, the hall is a place of records and performance. It has nothing to do with your off-field persona. And it shouldn't.

[JVS]

62. How about continue with the course of discipline that has been set..

and never put his rule-violating ass in the hall?

[WeRQ4U]

65. Because it's sanctimonious and stupid to keep him out.

There are plenty of bad people in the hall. He hit a baseball better than almost anyone. Him being a lousy person doesn't change that.

[JVS]

66. No it is not. It is harsh but wise.

This is not about being a good or bad person. This is about punishment for a crime against baseball. Gambling within baseball cannot be tolerated, it will destroy the game. Rose gambled, and MLB needed to demonstrate how unacceptable that is. MLB did so by eliminating him from baseball. Let that serve as an example to those who would break the rules.

[WeRQ4U]

68. You can set an example by eliminating him from baseball.......fine.

But that does not equate to not allowing him into the hall of fame. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Plus, I have reservations as to whether the punishment is consistent with the crime. Sure, you say gambling ruins baseball. Well, steroids will ruin baseball too. Pete Rose had a one strike policy and he was banned from the game and the hall. If you're caught using steroids you get a Xgame suspension and a fine. That's all. That's not consistent.

[JVS]

72. The threat of exclusion from the baseball would be toothless if it allowed

people to still get into the hall of fame. There would be no way to get past their prime greats to obey the rules. The threat of being kicked out of active play (which they are already by virtue of age) but still being allowed into the HOF (the only thing they really have to look forward to within baseball) would be useless.

There is no good reason to let Rose off the hook and plenty of reasons not to.

[WeRQ4U]

75. You make the situation seem much more dire than it is.

There aren't a litany of aging "past their primers" running around wishing they could gamble on baseball. The increased salaries all but eliminated the threat that this crap would happen. It's less a product of this reactionary, bullshit ban on the hall, and more do with the fact that players don't see the benefits in doing it.

[JVS]

77. Oh yeah, because well paid celebrities never blow their money

:sarcasm:

The HOF inclusive BB-ban is the last stick fir keeping washed up ballplayers in line. Rose broke the rules, fuck him, no HOF.

[WeRQ4U]

81. Oh yeah, because well paid celebrities champ at the bit to bet on baseball

:sarcasm:

The HOF inclusive BB-ban is the worthless, reactionary product of a delusional baseball commissioner. There aren't enough washed up baseball players hanging around hoping for a HOF bid, and at the same time contemplating whether to bet on their team or not, to worry about it anyway. Rose broke the rules AFTER he was a player. He had more hits than anyone WHEN he was a player. Fuck him, fine, but the HoF is for record setters.....he's one of them.

[JVS]

83. Rose deserves the punishment

Why should he be exempted? Everything is fine with banning him from baseball and the HOF except that there are some malcontents who piss and moan about it all the time.

[WeRQ4U]

89. Your opinion isn't the only one.

Simply becasue you think the issue is absolute doesn't mean I agree. Obviously, I DON'T think everything is fine with him being banned from the HoF. Isn't that obvious to you? I and a couple others have argued in the opposite.

And I'm not going to start over again simply because you didn't read anything up until this point ("Why should he be exempted?"). We've been talking about it the entire thread. I'll let you go back and read.

I like your arguing style though. Absolutist conjecture. Repeat it enough times and maybe I'll believe it?

[JVS]

92. No, but my opinion is the right one. n/t

:P

[WeRQ4U]

94. Nope, mine is........MINE MINE MINE!!!

:evilgrin:

[JVS]

95. Normally I'm no fan of absolutism, but sports needs it to be proper

[WeRQ4U]

55. He should be in the hall too.

But that's beside the point. Their transgressions are different. Pete Rose would be inducted as a player. His dirty deeds occurred AFTER his career as a player was concluded. Shoeless Joe did something as a PLAYER (even though the facts are still disputed as to what he did, exactly). I've said it before, I think the case for Pete Rose is better than Shoeless Joe, but either way, BOTH should be rewarded for their accomplishments as PLAYERS. WHether they're good people is beside the point.

[kick-ass-bob]

59. then lets wait till he's dead.

Since it is a lifetime ban.

[WeRQ4U]

63. Baseball Martyrs?

Yuck. I would rather induct him, and never let him see his plaque than have some drawn out "Pete struggled for this his whole life" speech by one of his kids. Why is this option any better?

[SKKY]

73. You've gotta let the Hit King in the Hall. He bet on the Reds...

...not against them. Bart was a bitter old man and made a grave, grave mistake.

[Serial Mom]

76. "records he set, were done without the benefit any drugs!" Wrong

He admitted freely to taking amphetamines throughout his playing career under the guise to keep his weight down.

I think that is why he "hustled" - he was on speed most the time, taking the pills before and during games.

I do not fault him for that - they were legal, but I still don't think he should get in the Hall.

[madinmaryland]

79. Hadn't heard that before.

I have seen several reports that he did not drink or use drugs (at least the illegal ones).

:shrug:

[Serial Mom]

85. He admitted to it in Playboy interview in 1979, but

he was not the only player to use them then and from my googling, many players still use them, thinking they are OK.

I don't agree that using them is not cheating - any drug policy in MLB should include testing for amphetamines too - if ephedrine can be banned, these should be also!

[Oeditpus Rex]

78. Induction into the Hall is ceremony and symbolism

and little else. Keeping Rose out of it cannot change the fact that he got more hits than anyone who ever played the game.

Every baseball fan knows what he did — hitting and gambling. One doesn't cancel out the other.

In or out of the Hall, Rose was still the greatest hitter ever. Amen.

[JVS]

80. Better than Ty Cobb?

[WeRQ4U]

82. Ty Cobb was a piece of shit too. Should we kick him out?

He was one the greatest all-around ball players ever. Should we disregard that becasue he wasn't exactly the best person even WHILE he played the game. HOw many times do you think Ty CObb played a game drunk? You know it happened. Does that tarnish his HoF status?

[JVS]

84. It doesn't matter what Cobb did, because shitty as his actions were...

they did not pose a threat to the integrity of the game. I've already said that the bans are about protecting the game and not about saying "ooh he's bad"

[WeRQ4U]

86. Then why don't steroid users face the same lifetime HOF ban?

They get a few games suspension and a fine. They aren't kicked out for life. I'll tell you why. Becasue baseball is not interested in this illusory "integrity of the game" bullshit. They won't eliminate someone that uses steroid becuase he brings people into the seats by hitting 500 ft homers. Integrity my ass.

[JVS]

87. I don't know. But it is the commisioners place to decide and doesn't...

make what Rose did Ok. Just because "white-collar" crime is underpunished doesn't mean that rapists should be let free.

Hopefully the authorities will come down harder on roids.

[WeRQ4U]

90. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm just trying to show you that baseball's official care less than you think about the games "integrity." If betting on baseball brought people into the stands, those greedy fuckers would probably consider reducing the ban on that too. (probably not, but you get what I mean)

[JVS]

91. But to overturn the ruling of the authorities would rob the game of...

integrity in and of itself.

[Oeditpus Rex]

109. 'the ruling of the authorities'

One of my long-time mantras:





When baseball suits talk about "the integrity of the game," they mean its image and how it translates into butts in seats and other marketing issues.

Like anything else, baseball's integrity has a price.

[JVS]

111. Baseball is a game. In games authority is necessary

[Oeditpus Rex]

113. Authority in the *game* is handled quite well

by four umpires, and has been for decades.

I'm talking about the business of baseball.

[JVS]

114. And those umpires are subordinate to the commisioner

He's like the pope of baseball.

[Oeditpus Rex]

115. Your point? (n.t)

[JVS]

116. That the commisioner is in charge of the game and has broad powers...

which protect the game from destroying itself. Without the commisioner baseball would become as fucked up as professional wrestling.

[Oeditpus Rex]

118. I doubt that

Baseball had rules prohibiting gambling before it had a commissioner. The office was created in 1920 in response to the "Black Sox" scandal and first held by Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who prior to that was a federal judge. His first act was to ban the eight "Black Sox" after they were acquitted by a jury. (To this day, evidence strongly suggests that Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver, while in on the "fix," did nothing to throw the Series. And Weaver never saw a dime of the money.)

[JVS]

119. The office was created because it was necessary to have it enforce rules

The rules without the commissioner were unenforceable

[Oeditpus Rex]

120. I'm sure the offices of the league presidents

would be thrilled to hear that.

[JVS]

121. Tough nuts to them.

[Oeditpus Rex]

93. IMO, yes

Both played with the advantages and disadvantages of their respective eras. Since these tend to balance — or, at least, there's no definitive way to measure or compare them — the bottom line prevails.

[JVS]

97. No way! Rose was not as good

Ty Cobb Pete Rose

-------------------
3,034 Games 3,562
11,434 AB 14,053
4,190 Hits 4,256
.366 BA .303
724 2B 746
294 3B 135
118 HR 160
1,933 RBI 1,314
2,245 Runs 2,165

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/5866/tyvsrose.html

Rose needed 528 more games than Cobb and 3619 more at bats to break his hit record by a mere 66!

The only area where Rose is clearly better is in HR's and that may have a lot to do with the more lively ball of the modern era. In fact Rose's abilitly to play approximately 20% more baseball probably has a lot to do with improved life expectancy and physical therapy of the modern era. Even with Rose getting so many more times to do well, Cobb crushes him in RBI, batting average, and Triples. He also leads sizably in runs.

[Oeditpus Rex]

100. If I cared to argue

I could cite a couple of dozen reasons for the differences in their numbers.

But I don't, because it's pointless.

Oddly, though, that pointlessness is part of the allure of sport.

[Ikonoklast]

105. Amen, brother!

Rose was a slap-hitter that lived off the single. That's why he was "Charlie Hustle". You'd hustle, too, if you had to run it out to get on base every time.

And running over a Ray Fosse in a meaningless All-Star game, effectively ending his career. Fosse never was the same player after that. What an asshat Rose is.

[Oeditpus Rex]

134. I'll always applaud him for taking out Fosse

I'm sorry Fosse was hurt, but that's the way the game is played.

And there's no such thing as a "meaningless" game.



Edit: Typo. :grr:

[sasquatch]

135. Cobb didn't face the best players in baseball though

You see at the time, black and other players of color were forced to play in the "Negro Leagues" or some other bullshit league at the time, so Cobb didn't face the best players at the time. Rose faced the best players in baseball at the time and won champioships, unlike Cobb.

[JVS]

136. But the general watering down in quality of players caused by all...

the extra new teams that came to be during Rose's career would balance that. Sure some good players were not there, but Cobb also never played against teams like the Padres or the Brewers.

[sasquatch]

139. That's a junk argument though

Rose was a better player and human being than Ty Cobb too. And that's saying something cause Rose was a arrogant bastard.

[JVS]

141. Quality as a human being isn't what the HOF is about

[HEyHEY]

96. If Ty Cobb is there...let in Rose!

OR at least give him a spot in the "Badasses of baseball" section

[JVS]

98. They should build a separate hall for badasses in Cobb's hometown

But keep rose the hell away from cooperstown

[HEyHEY]

99. Wow, that'd be a cool hall to visit

[JVS]

101. Here is the whiskey bottle with which Hubert "Tremors" Kretschmar...

of the Chicago Cubs beat a hotel desk-clerk to death in St. Louis in 1922.

[Faygo Kid]

108. No, and keep Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and the other Steroid Boys out, too.

Baseball is a game of statistics. These crapheads from the '90s disgraced the records of Ruth, Aaron, Williams, Cobb - well, all of them in the Hall of Fame, who deserve to be there. They don't. I would rather hold my nose and put Pete Rose in than these steroid machines. At least Pete did it by ability and fight. These '90s "stars" are right in line with Abramoff, DeLay and Diebold.

[Jamastiene]

112. Yeah, let him in.

He should not have gambled and fucked up, granted, but his record stands and he DID do it without any muscle enhancing drugs.

[Dave Reynolds]

117. I love the smell of a lounge flamewar in the afternoon.

:popcorn:

[JVS]

122. Wonder how it smells in the evening

[Dave Reynolds]

123. Like warm summer feet,

dipped in rancid vinegar.

[JVS]

125. I was hoping the thread would re-ignite

[Dave Reynolds]

129. Methinks the flame warrior have turned in for the night.

Too bad, it's fun when these rage for days.

Maybe the next fried chicken thread will really cook.

[TheBaldyMan]

124. Who is Pete Rose? Should I have heard of him? n/t

[Emops]

126. You can say he can't be allowed to participate-

BUT HE NEEDS TO BE IN THE HALL OF FAME. End of story.

[sasquatch]

127. All the people that voted "no" stomp on puppies for fun

[JVS]

128. You're just biased because you are from Cinci

[sasquatch]

130. I'm from SW Ohio, but not Cincinnati

[JVS]

131. That is still their fan area, no?

[sasquatch]

132. Yes, but I wanted to point out I don't live in Cincinati

[JVS]

133. I concede the point

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

138. annnnnnd... no.

:P

[sasquatch]

140. Oh go watch Blues Clues you pain in the ass.

:P