A C-Span caller said that had Clinton not behaved so badly in his

[Sparkle]

personal life, Bush wouldn't have been given the White House. In other words Clinton is to blame for Bush being selected. She also mentioned she loves Bush even though he is a baptist because he is a moral man.

Dear lord, what are we going to do with these people? I am really beginning to think Bush may be the anti Christ. Either that, some people are just stupid. Just because someone appears to be moral doesn't make it so.

[kmla]

1. Shows how much she knows....

... President Chimp-in-a-flight-suit is a member of the United Methodist Church, if I am to believe what is published....

That ain't no baptist...

[Wetzelbill]

2. People are blind, dumb sheep

feed 'em enough bs and they start spewing it out like they thought it up themselves. This Bush being honest and moral thing is just classic. The biggest bought and paid for president ever, got into office on a fraud, perpetrated nothing but lies and deceit and just because he claims to be religious people think he is moral. Psh, it would be funny how stupid people are if this guy and his administration were not so dangerous.

[ProfessorGAC]

3. People (Collectively) Are Stupid!

And, they're ruled by their fears. Let's face it 250 million people in this country have nothing to fear from terrorism. There's only about 25 million of us at risk, because of the locale in which we live.

But, 200 million of that 250 million are in fear and want to believe that li'l Georgie is making their pathetic little lives safer.

Clinton's personal life makes it ok that Bush lies about policy? That just proves my point, i think.
The Professor

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. But appearances are everything, and we only look at morality individually

So, so long as Shrub isn't having sex with women other than his wife, he's okay.

Clinton did make a huge mistake in having his little Moncia tryst, and it cost him dearly. Had he apologized to the country right away, he'd have been forgiven, and could have moved on. Obviously, the rightwingers would have found something else to impeach him for, but Clinton helped fuel the fires of hate with that particular indiscretion, because he fell right into what Americans base their judgments on - appearances.

But that's also the fault of idiot Americans.

Shrub can go around blowing anything up, shredding the constitution, and every other evil thing he does, but America won't mind becuase he isn't having sex outside marriage, he isn't killing anyone himself, he still goes to church, he still acts like a regular guy, he holds his wife's hand, etc.

So it IS all about appearances.

I'd say Clinton is far, far, far more moral than Shrub, even given his Monica tryst.

But we - the democrats - tend to think of morality as relating to how we relate with other people and live in community together. Repukes tend to think of morality as a personal thing - what you wear, whether you go to church, the music you listen to, etc. So a repuke can lay of his entire company, move the assets to a foreign country, pay no taxes, and get a ten million rebate from the IRS, and that's okay, because the guy goes to church and calls his mother in the nursing home every Sunday afternoon, you know?

Why is this? I'm not sure, but I have an idea. I think bovine America is so superficial in their judgments becuase of ignorance. Not just regular ignorance and lack of curiosity and intellectual interest, but ignorance, really, of what power is and what a president does. I think a lot of Americans have no idea, no conception of the power and responsiblity of the president, and instead of tryiong to imagine it, or understand it, or do some research and put themselves in that spot, they shut their brains down and go "Well, I refuse to understand policies that don't directly affect me, so my judgment on the president's role will be based on how moral he appears to be in his daily life", because regular daily life is in the realm of experience of the average American.

[Sparkle]

9. Your post was dead on.

Especially this statement:

"Shrub can go around blowing anything up, shredding the constitution, and every other evil thing he does, but America won't mind becuase he isn't having sex outside marriage, he isn't killing anyone himself, he still goes to church, he still acts like a regular guy, he holds his wife's hand, etc."

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. Aye, thank you!

I thought it was a pretty good post. I hadn't thought of the "presidential responsibility out of the realm of people's experience, so they prefer to not think of it" idea before.

I think I'm on to something important there.

[Drifter]

5. Sad, but true ...

I asked a friend after the sElection, why he did not vote for Gore. His answer was (sorry, I'm not making this up), because "Clinton was a scum bag".

Cheers
Drifter

[Aristus]

6. The Smirking Chimp murders 15,000 innocent Iraqis, and he's

MORAL???!!!

Here that folks? Adultery is the only sin left! Let's get crazy!!!!

[msmcghee]

8. Step back, feel the power.

People make decisions because they feel good - then they come up with reasons to justify them.

Don't waste time trying to decipher their reasons - or find some logic or morality in them. It doesn't exist. The only thing that makes any difference is if a choice feels good.

We on the left are exactly the same. It's just that community, altruism and the common good are things that feel good to us.

Is there morality in that? Only if you believe that it is more moral for people to live longer happier lives within protective communities, sharing resouces equitably - than short violent lives competing selfishly for resources - social Darwinism they call it.

There, I justified my world-view - and it does feel good.

[trotsky]

7. As stupid as that is, she has a very valid point.

Whitewater, Travelgate, Vince Foster, even the Paula Jones case - they had nothing on Bill. NOTHING. Because there was nothing!

As much as I love the guy, if he just could have kept it in his pants, OR fooled around with someone a little more mature & responsible than Monica, Ken Starr would have had to close up shop with zilch to say. Clinton (and Gore) would have emerged from that as true victors.

But it didn't happen that way. In the court of public opinion, Clinton became a sleazy womanizer who couldn't be trusted. Gore, instead of embracing Clinton (and by extension, his accomplishments), had to distance himself, and in the process probably cost the ticket untold numbers of votes.

Personally, I'm not offended by Bill fooling around. The only people whose business that is, are Bill, Hillary, and the "other woman." But we cannot deny that possibly millions of people voted for * in 2000 because of how they perceived Clinton. That's just a fact.

[Sparkle]

11. I can agree with what you said too.

There are people that voted for the moron because Clinton had an affair. And it's really sad, imo.

So because a president had some silly affair to relieve stress, they get so damn hot and bothered by it (as if they should care) and vote for a stumbling idiot. Hopefully the ones that did vote for him realize the HUGE mistake they made in * as he is a very evil man.

We also can't single out the media whores. Had this republican lynching not been splatted on cable tv with the pundits 24/7, it may have had a different outcome.

[SOteric]

17. Well, yes, I see both points, however I'll add

That the fact that Clinton got caught with his pants down is only half the problem. If that were all, I think a good portion of the public would have quickly gotten over it. He compounded the problem by lying to the public about it, then indisputedly being caught in the lie.

I've been intrigued by the phenomena and response for lying for some time.

I think most of those in mainstream America still angry with Clinton are angry at being lied to, and the sense of betrayal and feeling foolish that comes with that. The lie is what destroys the level of trust.

It's a moot point, but I firmly believe that if Bill Clinton had laid his cards on the table the first time he was asked, the vast right-wing conspiracy would still be struggling to get their guys in power.

Moot points aside, however, it's worth pondering what Mr. & Mrs. MainstreamAmerica will be feeling when they find out, - with proof and certainty, that Georgie's been lying to them. And that this time it's costing them lives and money.

[msmcghee]

10. This lounge thing is nice.

I have never spent much time here. Maybe I should. Anybody hear from AlienGirl lately?

[rusty charly]

12. my new favorite line:

the problem with baptists is we don't hold them under water long enough.

[pansypoo53219]

13. unfortunately

one of the biggest things lacking in america is PERSPECTIVE. as an artist, i understand perspective. and i try and teach it to the misguided.
READ the encyclopedia of american scandal. most libraries probably have it. -what clinton did was MINOR, insignificant and did NOTHING TO h8urt americans. for goodness sakes, JFK was bringing prostitutes into whitehouse. A FORMER PRESIDENT HAD AN ILLIGITEMATE CHILD BEFORE BEING ELECTED.
just stay away from 24/7 news channels, they add NOTHING.

[bloom]

14. thats how I see it

Nobody is perfect - and it astounded me the efforts that RW people went to - to get him - and how much the press supported those efforts.

[Sparkle]

15. Yep...Character Assasination

But I am thankful it wasn't the other.

[KG]

16. no blow job = no bush

St. William of Clintons' self-indulgent affair cost the dem's a ton of votes, enough to take the election fair and square.

to think otherwise is delusional.