There are times at DU when I feel we're

[hyphenate]

too politically correct. Some of us swear, some of us don't; most of us have our own personal peeves that we express here with little to no harassment, but most of the time we keep our own counsel, and let others keep theirs. We try not to feel personally attacked when someone challenges our personal feelings, though that is difficult sometimes, and we try to live and let live. It's one of the reasons we're different than those on the right wing--we try not to judge others by what they say and do, unless they're the hypocrites who live on the right wing.

Some of us smoke, some of us don't; some of us drink, some of us don't. Some of us prefer those of the opposite sex, some of us don't. Some of us will generalize when we make comments, some of us will make an attack on a right winger personally. Some of us come here for support, some of us come here for camaraderie.

It doesn't matter: we are all individuals here, just as much as the other 4 billion people in the world. We can't control what others do or say, but we can either support them or we can disagree with them. We can even be on opposite sides, but respect the same rights for others that we expect for ourselves. A close friend reiterated the quote: I might disagree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say what you believe.

Things have changed drastically in the world over the centuries and millennia. We have gone from wild primitive loners to intelligent (for the most part!), civilized beings. As a result, we have managed to become friends with a global community that we would never have had even twenty-five years ago.

When someone is angry--and yes, we've been angry a lot in the past 5 years (justifiably), they tend to let loose. They will say things which they might not say when they are calm and collected. They might make a comment which comes off as a slur to someone else, but which is often said merely out of frustration or exasperation.

I don't think we need to judge each other here on what we say in outrage. DUers and most other liberals are considered the most sympathetic and humane people in our world, and what they might utter in annoyance is mere venting only. There is no threat--implied or otherwise--behind the words--there is no real animosity toward a group of people of any race, gender preference or any other physical, mental or psychological difference.

This is important to me and to most DUers--in RL, we work and interact with people of diverse backgrounds, and if we couldn't allow others to be who they are, we could not call ourselves liberals.

But sometimes being PC comes to a point where it becomes nonsensical. We end up in a glut of being fake, being false, even to ourselves. If we must watch every single word out of our mouths every single minute, every single day, the barriers will be put back up and left there with no way to ever break them down again.

A few words, a few phrases uttered in anger should not be worthy of a condemnation. If we can not give each other the benefit of the doubt without reaming them for something said that might offend someone sometime, then we are no better than those on the right.

In the future, I will not apologize for comments I make that someone here might disagree with or take umbrage at. If I can't speak my mind, if I can't make a statement without worrying that someone will be offended, then I might as well leave here now. Because those who try to be PC Nazis are as bad as anyone on the right who tries to control someone else's life. And we certainly don't need people like that around.

[cleofus1]

1. hi hyphenate

lots of good points there...i for one am always interested in what someone has to say...and i have found myself going back to LBN more and more...but i doubt that i will ever go back to GD...in college i was tought to never attack the person...but to dissect their argument...identify the premises and either validate or invalidate...too bad some people seem to think they can only advance their position if they destroy you...no need to apologize but try to keep it light...in the words of Yosemite Sam...."smile when you say that!"

[hyphenate]

6. Well

What has me so pissed off is someone in GD the other day yelled at me because I called Mann Coulter a whore. And then tonight, on a photoshopped pic I had done, someone else told me it was an insult to transsexuals, which it was not. Come on, give me a fucking break! Coulter deserves every derisive comment she gets because she's the biggest skank in the world, and I refuse to back down from any comments I make about her. One of the posters was obviously flame baiting me, but I passed it over. I don't need to respond to that kind of crap and I don't feel I need to be so PC that I can't say what's on my mind about dear Mann.

Thanks for the other comments. :)

[TK421]

14. Isn't this PC bullshit one of the things thats wrong with the world today?

I long for the days when I could make a statement and not have to worry about it offending someone else, even though it was never meant to be offensive in the first place...UUUUGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[hyphenate]

16. That's exactly my point

If we have to edit ourselves to such a degree that no one is offended, then why are are we even bothering to seek out opportunities to speak? We might as well shut our mouths and slowly die from what we bottle up.

I've noticed this has been creeping into a lot more postings and discussions, where someone gets indignant about some aspect of a post and raises holy hell, and tries to make the OP retract or restate their ideas. It's too bad that there is some offense taken, and some situations do warrant it because some connotations are nasty and completely vulgar (and I'm sure we know what some of them are!), but the word, "whore?"

And if I see someone at DU taking mAnn Coulter's side in a discussion, you can sure as hell bet that they should be posting elsewhere, and not at DU. She is rabid about her hatred of the left, and most--almost all--of us have just as much abiding hatred or disgust of her.

[GirlinContempt]

25. You might have hatred and disgust for Ann Coulter

But do you have hatred and disgust for transsexual people? Cause, thats how it comes across when you make fun of her for looking like one. As if there is something wrong with being transsexual, and because she reminds you of one that she is even worse. Whats wrong with sticking to the issues? I don't think it's crazy PC to be offended by the implication that transsexualism is something to make fun of.

You said it yourself. "She is rabid about her hatred of the left" So, she gives you enough to make fun of/insult her for, why take it somewhere else?

[ghostsofgiants]

26. Problem with your theory is...

A lot of people seem to think PC means "you have no sense of humour and thus think I'm offensive," and use that as an excuse to be offensive.

[GirlinContempt]

27. I think the real problem with my theory is

I'm failing to take into account the fact that people who go down those 'roads' of commenting are TRYING to be offensive, not trying to talk about their issues with a person/idea/policy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. another problem is its easier to blame other people than correct

ones behavior...

so clearly, we must lack PC, not that one can lack sensitivity to trans people

[ghostsofgiants]

36. Yep...

"No, it's not my fault I'm an insensitive douche, you're just too PC!" :eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. seconded.

[Swede]

2. Glad you got that off my chest.

Couldn't have said it better.

[hyphenate]

9. Thank you

:)

[qnr]

3. Wise move. I never apologize for what I say. If I didn't want to say

it, I wouldn't.

[hyphenate]

11. Yes

Say it like it is, or at least how we see it. Life is too short to play around someone else's sensitivities.

[TK421]

4. Was there a particular post you are referring to here? Did something

happen that made you ( or inspired you ) to post this? I've read another post similar to this earlier on about there not being enough tolerance for other's viewpoints....just curious

[hyphenate]

7. See post #6

I was posting it as you were posting. :)

[BikeWriter]

5. I KNOW you're talking to me!

:rofl:

[hyphenate]

10. Nah

You're just as much a blowhard as I am. :hi:

[BikeWriter]

12. Well, uh... Thanks, I think...

:hi:

[Nevernose]

8. I suspect most of us would get along quite well in person

And maybe part of being nice to other people IS watching what we say; political correctness does indeed get out of hand, but what we have to remember is that political correctness is just a fancy way of saying "be nice to each other."

Nice post, btw, and I mostly agree.

[hyphenate]

13. Thanks

Much of the time, we will say something in a generalization that never comes off the same way in real life. I hate the "concept" of fundamentalists and creationists, but my best friend has become one and I would never say anything hurtful to her. That's her business, and as long as she doesn't bother me, it's fine. But there are times when generalizations are necessary in order to single out a troublemaker--we use them all the time--right-wingers, evangelicals, fundies, RRR, idiots, BFEE, Halliburton, The Carlyle Group, etc. But it doesn't mean that we think every single employee of Halliburton, for example is an evildoer like its top people. We know here what we mean when we refer to such a collective noun to categorize different factions on the right.

[REP]

15. Oh Do I Agree

Especially in re the subject to which you are reacting.

[hyphenate]

17. Exactly

The skank shows no remorse for any of her words uttered against the left, so I say it's open season year round on her.

[Strong Atheist]

18. Sounds good to me. nt.

[hyphenate]

42. Thank you!

:)

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

19. Agreed my friend. Agreed.

I've been noticing this lately, and sometimes it seems that some people can have the same mindset as the Republicans (just with different platforms); as in, they can be close-minded arrogant assholes. That is the same reason why I can't stand Republicans, and was (and still am, many times) disappointed how it often isn't much different here. I'm not offended by it, but am often saddened how this is the best we can do; just be better (or in cases, just say we are) than those republicans over there.

[hyphenate]

21. Very true

That mindset is one that has already made it so that when we do post "with feeling" we often feel guilty that we might be offending someone along the way. We really can't put ourselves at such a vigilant level if we want to get our points across, sometimes. The best arguments in history have been framed as those that get to the heart of the problem, without regard to the way that is being expressed. I can see us censoring Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, Lincoln, or Roosevelt to be politically correct--we would not have emerged alive as a country if we had done that!

[riona]

20. Enjoyed your post

I have chosen to have a only a few close friends at this stage of my life and we understand each other completely. In DU its a bit different. Most of us haven't even seen each other let alone have had long talks to get to know what we're about. For example, years ago I had a friend who would suddenly be "mad" at me. I'd have to dig out what was wrong - it was usually something that would never irritate me. But, she was a good friend and it was worth the effort to avoid hurting her whenever possible. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps there is some tiptoeing in DU because of the blogger's past experiences.

[hyphenate]

22. That could be true

But what can be done about it, is simple: in real life, if the person who has somehow been offended doesn't say anything, then a person won't know why they are upset. But online, regardless of all other factors, we are still anonymous screennames and therefore an "insult" can not really be an insult, because it is directed at the anonymous "you" or "them" out there in the world. I had a similar thing happen some years ago where some comments on a board were taken too personally by a few people who obviously confused real life with cyberlife. If you can't distinguish one from the other, you really shouldn't be posting to online forums, nor should you expect people to take your feelings as anything other than narrow-minded hogwash. :)

[realisticphish]

23. A valid point

...but...

There's a difference between "PC Bullshit" and "not being an asshole."

I wasn't involved with the flame wars before, and I'm not going to weigh in on this particular instance here. But saying that everytime anyone is offended is PC bullshit REALLY trivializes some major problems. If I start referring to black people as "niggers", you bet your ass everyone will swarm me (and rightly so).

I definately get tired of people whining about certain labels. But I also get tired of people saying that anytime anyone has a problem with anything, they're just being thin skinned. I'm all for your right to call AC whatever the hell you want, without fear of reprisal. But, people who disagree also have a right to, well, disagree.

[hyphenate]

37. I agree with you

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when someone attacks another with the goal to flame bait them, it's not right, either. There is a feature here at DU called the "Ignore" feature which allows posters to black out people with whom they have problems of one sort or another. If that person didn't like my comments, they could easily have hit the "ignore" button instead of trying to piss me off by being so nasty. I walked away from the argument, but I'm not sure I could hold to my peace if that person started to follow me from thread to thread and was constantly attacking me. I'm not saying that happened, but when someone is deliberately setting up another in such a fashion, it's time that some sort of line was drawn.

A respect for the opinions of others at DU is crucial to our harmony and united front against the right. Infighting and needling are two behaviors that should be suppressed, and those who might be "offended" need to walk away more often instead of engaging in a display of bitterness.

[realisticphish]

38. that's clearly wrong

If someone's flamebaiting, or stalking, then there's obviously a deeper problem.

But just beware; there's a fine line between speaking your mind and instigation.
I mean, clearly, a large number of people find "Mann Coulter" comments offensive. Is it really that big of a deal to try to find other ways to attack her (fuck knows there are a lot)?

As i said before, i couldn't care less, and I'm not involved with this particular conflict. But I'm just putting it out there :shrug:

[hyphenate]

40. I posted a link to the photoshopped pic

Somewhere in the thread. Read it and tell me if I'm overreacting.

[BeFree]

24. Kicked and recommended

This should go to the greatest pages for all to see. Its too good to die a lonely death in the lounge. Thanks hyphenate.

[hyphenate]

39. Thank you

and much obliged. It is something which has been bothering me a lot as of late, because it seems that more and more new people are dragging their kit and kaboodle of personal battles with them to DU. When I see a posting about a topic for which I have no interest or have a distaste for, I don't go into that thread strictly for the sake of doing battle. It took me several years to get my first 1000 posts because I was not interested in going rabid on people on my own "side" in politics. DU as a safe haven--a place where I could comiserate and find like-minded fellows, and sometimes just closing my mouth was the best answer of all. Personal attacks are the habits of the freepers, the trolls and those who are simply contrary at all people.

Judging others on an online board is near ludicrous because we don't know these people from a hole in the wall. Once our lives have been personally touched by them, however, it's a different story. After having met some DUers in RL, you react differently to their posts and respond to someone you actually know, even if it's only a little bit. You can't do that with the thousands of daily posters who are here, and trying to satisfy everyone is an impossible task.

I appreciate your comments. :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. Some of us eat meat, and some of us don't. Some of us label others

who eat meat, and some of us don't. Some of us think we're being funny when we make covert comments about others...And some don't. Some of us don't even realize we were being covert, until someone gets upset with us. Some create an "online persona" and some are straightforward. Humanity is amazing in its many forms.

Thanks hyphen, nice post.

[redqueen]

29. I like the OP too,

but i like yours better. :)

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. Hi redqueen!

How are things around your place these days? I am loving the rapidly approaching warm weather. :hi:

[redqueen]

31. I'm actually enjoying a *break* from the warm weather,

yes, already! It got up to 98 a few days back... we've had some rain though and highs in the 80s are much more tolerable. :)

*hopes for more spring weather*

[hyphenate]

41. Thanks

for the support. It's true--we're all different, and our reactions are always based on who we are--how we've come to whatever point in our life we're at, and it's difficult to guage how someone else will view what we say. But we're who we are, warts and all, and if we tried to live our lives walking on eggshells or without expressing ourselves through the view of our sum of experiences, we would not be the unique people that we are. A world of clones is the reich wing dream and goal, not ours. :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i think people who say things that offend other people

should stop crying if they are told what they say is offensive..

you are whining about other people being too sensitive

ohh the irony.

[hyphenate]

35. I wasn't necessarily "whining," but yes

I took offense when someone accused me of targeting transsexuals in a thread where it was never implied in the first place. The photoshopped photo that I did was of AC with her new book cover, and it implied not that she was a transsexual, but androgynous. There is a significant difference between the two. The one who made the comment was also flame baiting me, and that's what pissed me off. I've been here long enough to know that baiting another DUer is a ploy of the freepers who like to come and cause trouble, and a legitimate DUer would not have ever said what was said to me.

Here is the link to the other thread. The implication was not about transsexuals, but of a man passing himself off as a woman, an inference which many of us here have used to refer to Coulter most of the time anyhow.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x978517

[GirlinContempt]

43. A few points:

But sometimes being PC comes to a point where it becomes nonsensical. We end up in a glut of being fake, being false, even to ourselves. If we must watch every single word out of our mouths every single minute, every single day, the barriers will be put back up and left there with no way to ever break them down again.
I'm hearing a lot of selfishness in this. *I* don't want to watch what I say, *I* haven't done anything wrong, it's *YOU* thats too sensitive, no problem with *ME*. If you don't want to be fake or false, don't say things you don't mean. If people are offended, explain it to them and respect their feelings. You seem to expect people to respect YOURS.

A few words, a few phrases uttered in anger should not be worthy of a condemnation. If we can not give each other the benefit of the doubt without reaming them for something said that might offend someone sometime, then we are no better than those on the right.
Sometimes things DO deserve condemnation, no matter how angry the person is at the time. However, if we can accept your basic premise, why can't YOU accept that YOU may have made someone feel hurt or angry with your statements, and what you're reading is their reaction?



In the future, I will not apologize for comments I make that someone here might disagree with or take umbrage at. If I can't speak my mind, if I can't make a statement without worrying that someone will be offended, then I might as well leave here now. Because those who try to be PC Nazis are as bad as anyone on the right who tries to control someone else's life. And we certainly don't need people like that around.

A refusal to apologize is pretty childish. It's ok to admit that you're wrong sometimes, cause we all are. There is no shame in it. It's ok to apologize for saying something that hurts someones feelings, even if you aren't sorry for the statement. Unless you don't feel badly about making others feel like crap, it isn't a falsehood. It's pretty arrogant to go through life unconcerned about the feelings of others. And it's really rude to dismiss peoples statements as 'pc nazism' because you don't agree with it. If I am supposed to accept your statements of X why can't you accept mine of Y? Sounds like a nasty double standard.

Frankly this post sounds like juvenile whining about having to deal with other people who don't agree with you, and a childish refusal to meet anyone halfway, and an infantile dismissal of any responsibility you should hold.