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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:43 PM
Original message
At least Kurt Cobain had the decency to
David Grohl is pimping it up for the Corporate Media TV Music Industry Awards Show, huh? I liked his music, corporate media still sucks and David Grohl sucks corporate teat.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nirvana and Cobain were total corporate whores....
Wearing a "corporate magazines suck" t-shirt on the cover of rolling stone to pimp your major label album is not exactly the height of integrity. The only thing worse than an actual corporate rock whore is someone who acts like they are not a corporate rock whore.

Grohl is in my opinion 10,000 times the songwriter that Cobain was.
He at least has written a slew of songs in different styles and come up with hooks that don't involve simply screaming. Nirvana's entire shtick was soft verse-loud chorus-soft verse-loud chorus.
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jenk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. ???
Grohl 10000x the songwriter Cobain was? GROHL??? Dave would be nothing without Kurt, and we should thank him for coming along and wiping away the scum rock and corporate rock like warrant, poison, rush, and motley crue.

of all the rock gods, Kurt was probably the least corporate rock whore, he had pretty nice house, but that's all. You never saw him in mercedes or prada clothes.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Actually Dave had a career before Kurt did....
Grohl was playing around on the indie scene before Nirvana was. And his songwriting is much more varied than Kurt Cobain's was.

So because he didn't wear Prada or drive a Mercedes that means he didn't whore himself out to the corporate rock media? Multiple photo shoots for Rolling Stone and Spin, recording for Geffen, appearing ad nauseum on MTV (Headbangers Ball for heaven's sake).

If you liked his music that's all that matters. But he played the corporate game by choice and he played it well. And he did so by basically mining the same territory as countless bands that came before (Replacements, Pixies, Husker Du, etc. etc.) but simply were not at the right place or the right time or as willing to play the corporate rock game.
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jenk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I don't think he had a choice
remember, Kurt was about as dirt poor as you can get. Sure he wanted to make money, he also wanted to get his music heard. Kurt was not a media whore, nor did he have a bloated ego and spend tons of money. I respect him for that, you don't see humble musicians like him anymore. Too bad he couldn't kick the drug habit...

you know the rolling stones mined the same territory that the beatles did, I guess that means they aren't any good either. Kurt and Nirvana rose head and shoulders above all else. Pixies, Husker Du? Please, these are mediocre acts, not even a blip on the radar.

But you can't compare Grohl to Cobain when it comes to songwriting, Kurt was in the top 5 all time, his songs are brilliant. Grohl has had a few decent one's, but eh, he's no Kurt.
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Toxictoaster Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. hoooold on there. . .
Say what you want about Nirvana--I personally would say they were a stronger cultural influence than musical one, but that's just me. But Husker Du and the Pixies, mediocre? Them's fightin' words, my friend. Cobain himself admitted that Smells Like Teen Spirit was a Pixies ripoff.

The Replacements--true rock greatness, with integrity, and drunkenness. Let It Be, into Tim, into Pleased to Meet Me--any better three-album run in modern rock history (last 20 years)? I think not.

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oustemnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. wow you just pissed me off big-time
Nirvana's predecessors, which you mentioned above, were not mediocre. In fact, Kurt has said as much that, when Nevermind came out, he was worried that people would think they ripped off the Pixies. And as far as not being "a blip on the radar screen," maybe that's because they were laying the groundwork that allowed Cobain to ascend to the heights he did. Do you believe that, because a band isn't commercially succesful--and it was pretty much impossible for bands with any kind of edge to be commercially successful at that point--they're mediocre, in your eyes?

Every one of the bands you mentioned, and Grohl for that matter, has a far more substantial body of work than Cobain developed, in quantity, quality and diversity.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. Husker DU, "mediocre"?!?!?!
Oh my god, I think my heart may explode....Please reconsider what you just said!
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I prefer any of Ringo's solo work to Foo Fighters'shit
Lameass power pop/punk spewed out by formerly one of the world's best drummers. Grohl is a mediocre singer, songwriter, guitarist. i guess he used to sit back there and think, "Why does Kurt have to be such a mope? What's wrong with entertaining people in the hallowed tradition of Jim Nabors and Sammy Davis, Jr?" Fuck that.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Do you think Cobain was a good singer and songwriter?
I don't think Grohl is one of the best in the big scheme of things, but Cobain was awful I thought. Obtuse lyrics passed off as deep....recycled riffs (let's face it Teen Spirit is little more than sloppily played "More Than A Feeling" by boston and Come As You Are is simply the riff from Killing Joke's "80's")....indie rock posing.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Actually it's James Gangs "In My Garden"...
which is where I assume that Boston stole it from. Sure, the lyrics are obtuse, but I never care about lyrics in music (that's why I was a Literature major) And, of course, everyone steals. I do think that Cobain was a very compelling vocalist with a gift for melody. If Cobain was indulging in indie rock posing, what the hell is Grohl up to? Modern rock posing?
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Not trying to be a smartass, here.
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 09:47 PM by nownow
I'm trying to figure out what James Gang song you mean. Are you referring to Joe Walsh's 'Meadows' (conceivably one of the most obtuse rock songs ever written, by the way). The riff in it is virtually indistinguishable from the riff in the chorus of Deep Purple's 'Woman From Tokyo' (also obtuse, but not quite as obtuse as 'Meadows').

I have no horse in this race -- I liked Nirvana, and I think I had a good grasp on what Cobain was trying to do within the system, but I also like Grohl's solo work. I don't see them as materially comparable, though (nor do I think Grohl intended them to be), and I always liked both power pop and harder guitar rock. Within the genre he's trying to perform, Grohl isn't bad. Cobain came along at the right time and was perceived to be a genius -- I don't know, I don't really think he was a genius, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Nirvana was the right thing at the right time, and they were ready to hop on the machine and ride it for all it was worth.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I agree...Cobain was way over rated, and Grohl is much better.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Grohl's songs are way better pop music
Grohl writes good rock and roll songs. I liked Nirvana too.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. infiltrating the mechanics of a system by posing as one of them...
Hello from Germany,
maybe it was one of the biggest mistakes of the postmodern generation to think that this could be done. And it might just be typical that just a sentence before, Cobain states:
"I like to calmy and rationally discuss my views in a conformist manor even though I consider myself to the extreme left."
We were somehow cowards, thinking we would be the most elaborate and clever subversive beings ever seen. But I'm pretty sure, Cobain shared these illusions.
I never was a huge Nirvana-fan. I had the impression that their music was mainstream, compared to the early eighties music, Cobain admired so much like Joy Division and the Gang of Four. They really sounded different from everything that ever was created before.
But I think I did unjustice to Nirvana and Cobain somehow. Maybe one could even compare Nirvana even to Dylan. People often didn't realize how wonderfull his music was and how incredible some of the melodies he did write were, 'cause he did hide this beauty with his uncomparable voice and arrangments.

The following is a quote from Cobains' diary:



"I like to complain and do nothing to make things better. I like to blame my parents generation for coming so close to social change. then giving up after a few successful effects by the media & Goverment to deface the morement by using the mansons and other Hippie Vepresentatives as propaganda examples on how they were nothing but unpatriotic, communist, satanic, inhuman diseases. and in turn the baby boomers become the ultimate, conforming, yuppie, hypocrites a generation has ever produced.

I like to calmy and rationally discuss my views in a conformist manor even though I consider myself to the extreme left.
I like to infiltrate the mechanics of a system by posing as one of them, then slowly start the rot from the inside of the empire. I like to assasinate the lesser Greater of two evils.

I like to impeach God.
I like to abort christ.
I like to fuck sheep.
I like the comfort in knowing that women are conerally superior, and naturally less violent that men.
I like the comfort in knowing that women are the only future in rock and roll.


censorship is VERY American.


I am threatend by ridicule.
I am overly concience of the sincerity my voice.
I like to have sex with people.
I love my parents yet I disagree with merely everything they stand for.
I understand and appreciate the value of religion for others.
my emotions are affected by music.
punk rock means freedom
I use bits and pieces of others personalities to form my own.

(by Kurt Cobain)

FUCK NOW, SUFFER LATER"
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Man, you come up with the best shit...
...in these music threads. I always like reading what you have to add.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm blushing, I'm just an ordinary guy...
burning down the house. O.K. the house is still there, and I'm ordinary.
Hi,
Dirk
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amandae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That was great!
I'm a Cobain fan ... i was 18 when he died, and didn't appreciate how truly young he was. i feel there could have been so many more great things to come from him ... but i guess we'll never know.

:(
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ZoCrowes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. Exactly
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 12:14 AM by YoungLiberal16
Finally someone who agrees with me. The only reason Cobain is held in such high regard is because he offed himself (same could be argued for many dead rock stars though.) I'll give credit where credit is due. The Unplugged album is fucking amazing. Everything else is boring indie rock by numbers but Unplugged is GREAT!
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Holy shit dude
Haven't seen you in a looooong time.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Why even compare the two?
I liked Nirvana as well as anyone, but Cobain wasn't the savior of rock, as many of you would like to believe. He wrote some great songs, but he wasn't doing anything that a hundred other, lesser-known people hadn't already done.

Sure, Dave Grohl played in Nirvana. I suspect that had his career died with Cobain, many of his current detractors would be talking about his "genius contributions" on the drums. The fact is that he was able to have a successful career AFTER Cobain ate a bullet, and that diminishes him (somehow) in many people's eyes. Are Foo Fighters as an "important" group as Nirvana? No. Still, that doesn't make the guy a rock-pariah.

Nirvana: Good
Foo (Grohl): Also good, but not as "ground-breaking"

All things considered, I'd rather hang out with Dave Grohl. I have a feeling that Cobain would've gotten on my fucking nerves.

An aside: You "either/or" people get on my fucking nerves too. Musically and politically.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
20. This is all the media's fault....
The pop music press is constantly looking out for and promoting the next "spokesman for a generation," instead of looking for and promoting just plain good rock music. The fact that Lennon, Dylan, etc. became "spokesmen" was an accident of history; there was no precedent for them.

And Nirvana paid the price for this misreading of history. As the first decent rock band to get a real promotioanl budget from a major label (Geffen's fake "indie: label, DGC) in a long time, Nirvana by default beacme the first decent rock band that a lot of young people heard that didn't sound like their parents's taste in music. There were many other major label abortions from that period whose creators were worthy of being huge. Nirvana lucked out and recieved a larger budget for promotion from their label. Added to this were KUrt's extra-musical attributes, like his charisma, his willingness to speak his mind in interviews, etc. which in turn fomented Nirvana as a "media presence," not a BAND of musicians.

So the smokescreen came up, and a (w)hole lot of young people embraced this media presence, knowing full well that they were playing the corporate media's game...but the music here was mainly secondary to these young people's concerns, or at least that's what the corporate media would have you believe. We heard a lot of blather in those years about "slackers," about the anger we all supposedly were directing towards boomers, about "generation X" (remember that one? What a sad chuckle one must emit when reading that phrase...). Nirvana were the supposed "spokesmen" for this phenomenon.

Whither the music, though? The music was pretty good, although not that original. Not that orignality is the best criteria by which to judge music, but Cobain had indeed synthesized his influences quite well. Added to that, there was genuine emotional pain in his voice. That voice was a powerful instrument. And Grohl's drumming was indeed wonderous. They were a pretty good rock band.

But when people speak ill of Nirvana, what they are reacting to is the revulsion caused by media overload. We were literally forcefed the "image" of Nirvana in those years, the image of "generational spokesmen." Go back and read their reviews and feature articles; usually a word or two about the music, and reams and reams of words concerning Cobain's persona, his SIGNIFICANCE, his IMPORTANCE, his iconic stauts as a generational archetype. There was great music being avoided in favor of fluff. Media whores since the demise of Dylan's mid-sixties persona have alays been looking for another stooge to fill his shoes, and in the procees they are spared the expense and toil of having to actually talk about the music...Talk about his mythic upbringing, his importance to a generation, etc, not about his guitar playing, etc. So naturally there follows a backlash.

This is why we're seeing threads like this, about who's "better," NIrvava or the Foo Fighters. The media calls the tune, and we all dance; in this case, we fixate upon Grohl's presence at awrds shows, or Cobain wearing a defaced T-shirt on the cover of Rolling Stone. These are extra-musical concerns. In the end, we are left with two decent-to-great major label rock bands whoboth made some distinctive music. The Cobain-haters have been so effected by the media that they are reacting to the "image"'s overexposure. Without the smokescreen, I'm sure they could appreciate Nirvava's music as MUSIC, not as iconic paragons of a mood and an era.

Okay, that's my rant, good night.
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