Calvin on Ritalin.

[brainshrub]

Yes, I know this is an edit. And yes, I know this is old... but it still brought a tear to my cynical heart.



Speaking as someone who grew up before Ritalin was handed out like candy, I can't say that I'm happy I didn't have access to it.

Yes, I've lead a creative life. But I'm also dead-broke. Most of my problems could have been avoided if I had a tool to organize myself better. But then again, I'd probably be a mid-level manager somewhere and only dreaming of the stuff I do today.

On the other hand: A mid-level manager has a house and a family life. Those are good things too.

Frankly, if I HAD made a lot of money earlier in my life, then I suppose I would be thanking my lucky stars that I didn't have Ritalin. What does it say about society where an artist only has a social role if s/he makes a lot of money?

Peh. What do I know? To quote Zappa:

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.

[ALago1]

1. Oh man that's heartbreaking

Seeing Hobbes turn back into a stuffed animal while Calvin dismissively works on his paper...sniff.

As a C&H lover, I never really thought of Calvin as having ADD. He seemed to have tremendous focus and passion for those few things that truly interested him (dinosaurs, snowmen, creating clubs, aliens, etc.) I think his situation relates exactly to what you mention above, that creative and artistic impulses are not justly rewarded and encouraged in modern society.

Relating this politically, though I do consider myself a supporter of liberal capitalism, my main huge objection with it is this particular mentality, that the only thing worth pursuing is wealth (an inherent assumption of capitalism).

[deucemagnet]

54. Let's not forget to mention Calvinball...

...definitely *not* fodder for a lounge "worst sport" thread!

[kcr]

2. That cartoon is Anti-Scientific, Anti-Child Garbage

My oldest has aspergers and ADHD. He takes medicine for the ADHD. Before the medicine, you could literally see him being distracted by something almost every minute. Teaching him to write was next to impossible, because he just could not focus. Now he can. You can see him think about the consequences of his actions, and every single aspect of his learning has improved: his speech, his counting, his writing. And, contrary to the anti-scientific nonsense in this cartoon, he has hardly been turned into a zombie or a imagtionationless child. In fact, it has helped his imagination because it allows him to focus on something for more than just a handful of minutes. Yesterday he built a giant "house" out of the kitchen table, a toy table, a toy drum, some toy dump trucks and a bunch of stuffed animals. When I got home, he detailed all of its features for me - -the drum was a door, the stuffed animal under the toy table was a bath, etc. Over the weekend, when I vacuumed, he looked at the vacuum lines and yelled "train tracks!", went and got some stuffed animals and took them on a "train ride" through town, pointing out when they "passed" the zoo or the Target. He could never have had that kind of imaginative play before the medicine, because he could never focus that long on any one thing.

The medicine has also made him better at being bad. The kid has always been a handful -- bull headed, demanding, and inquisitive to the point of obsession. But now he is sneaky as well, inventing ways to get mommy or daddy to say "yes" to something he wants, or scoping out whether or not mommy and daddy can see what he is doing before he begins it. Again, before he could not do those things because he couldn't focus long enough on them. Oh, and he had to be threatened with a time out before he would put that "house" away yesterday. Hardly a paragon of virtue.

My son's brain has betrayed him with respect to handling sensory input. The medicine gives him back that ability, and it has allowed him to be fully himself. Cartoons like this one represent the triumph of a romantic, nonsensical notion of what creativity is and demands over reality based solutions to very real problems for kids who are suffering through very real challenges. It's a shame that some people would rather hang on to their illusions and convince others that these medicines are somehow bad than to help real kids with their real problems.

[newcriminal]

5. It's also a shame that some people

would rather convince others that everyone should be medicated because it works for their child. As a mother of 5 and yes all are in gifted, and very well behaved now. Of course one very intelligent child of mine was a bit bored in school and they wanted to medicate him. We fought the school for over a year, and now the child is fine. We still get weekly reports that say one day out of the week that he is playing with his pencils or wasn't paying attention to the teacher, and when we ask him what the teacher was saying he always knows. He gets very good grades and I would never consider giving him any drug so that he will sit quietly for the teacher.I believe the cartoon was drawn because they (the school, some parents) are to eager to decide your child needs medication when the only thing most of them need is some stimulation.

[kcr]

7. That's a very nice strawman you have there ...

... did you build yourself? Because, of course, you cannot point to a single sentence, a single phrase, or a single word that even remotely suggests that all children should be medicated. That notion came from no where else but your imagination.

I also find it hard to believe that your interpretation of the cartoon is remotely correct. Anyone with any familiarity with the Calvin and Hobbs cartoons knows that Calvin is an exaggerated, almost grotesquely so, parody of a difficult, rambunctious child. Calvin is known for his imagination, his warped snowmen, his complete disregard for anything related to school, Calvinball, and the fact that he has invested a stuffed animal with a complete personality. The cartoon takes all that away from Calvin. Clearly, then, the cartoon is arguing that Ritalin and the like are detrimental to creativity and spontaneity -- a contention that has no real basis in fact.

I am sorry that you felt pressured to put your kid on medicine. But I find that no excuse for either distorting someone else's position or defending nonsense like this cartoon that denigrates the very real good these medicines do for kids with very real problems. Because, at the end of the day, if that anti-medicine people win out, then kids like my son don't get to live full lives. I don't find that prospect anything to laugh about.

[newcriminal]

9. I'm not stating that you said all children

but it is very over prescribed, and that isn't coming from just me and I am sure this isn't the first time that you have heard that fact. If this helps your child great more power to you. That doesn't change the fact that children are being medicated that have no need for it.
My interpretation of that cartoon is exactly what I stated before. My sons have every single Calvin and Hobbes cartoon ever drawn ( there is a collection of all of them and my boys have the books) so I am very familiar with Calvin. A typical boy with a large imagination, not someone that needs to be medicated. And in case you didn't know how children that do not need Ritalin that are given ritalin act, let me tell you, and I have looked into this, a lot of them walk around in a fog.I do believe that it would be detrimental to a child's creativity if they truly do not need the drug.
I don't believe your child is in any danger of not getting his medication. The problem with Ritalin is not trying to get it, but not having it shoved down normal children's throats.

[kcr]

70. Facts, Please

You state that the medicine is over-prescribed. Back that up, please. The studies are contradictory, at best, with more showing the condition being under-diagnosed than over diagnosed. The increase in diagnoses is most likely a result of a better awareness and more doctors becoming aware that the recommended treatments are safe for children:

http://www.dbpeds.org/articles/detail.cfm?TextID=129
http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec01/medicating.html

As for children walking around in a fog: these are drugs. It took about two months for our doctor to get a dose that actually made a difference. We started on the low and end gradually increased; others start on the high end and walk back while they look for the right dosage.

All cartoon like this do is perpetuate a myth that has no basis in reality. It asserts that medicine damages the kids, further pushing people away form something that can and does help children. I don't find that funny.

[rug]

73. .

http://school.familyeducation.com/medical-diagnosis/medical-conditions-and-diseases/29431.html
http://www.wcanews.com/archives/2000/Jan/jan00h.htm
http://www.naturalchoice.net/articles/ritalin.htm
http://www.adders.org/research14.htm
http://childrentoday.com/resources/articles/ritalinp2.htm
http://forums.govteen.com/archive/index.php/t-9595.html
http://www.theodora.com/teddy/newyork/ritalin.html
http://www.gladwell.com/1999/1999_02_02_a_ritalin.htm
http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/09/25/medicate/print.html
http://www.reversespins.com/add.html

[kcr]

76. I'm not impressed.

1) No studies actually quoted or referenced. He implies that ADHD is not a real disease:

ADHD exists as a disorder primarily because a committee of psychiatrists voted it so. In a valiant effort, they squeezed a laundry list of disparate symptoms into a neat package that can be handled and treated. But while attention is an essential aspect of our functioning, it's certainly not the only one. Why not bestow the label of "disorder" on other problems common to people diagnosed with ADHD -- such as Easily Frustrated Disorder (EFD) or Nothing Makes Me Happy Disorder (NMMHD)?

Do you know what else is a diagnoses because psychiatrists said so? Pretty much every mental disease. Does schizophrenia not exist? so -- no numbers, no facts, and a person who obviously hates the diagnosis to the point of discounting the very process that has given us almost every other psychiatric diagnosis. A scientist who hates the scientific method.

2)Maybe a little better. It does mention a study -- from 1999. Which, if you read the links I made above, was contradicted by studies in 2000 and 2002. And it is in an article form a woo-woo conspiracy nut:

Most children receiving Ritalin have been identified for treatment by teachers who have been misled by drug company and government promotional campaigns for Ritalin and other stimulants. "Educate -- don't medicate," should be the motto of every parent or teacher who is tempted to resort to Ritalin, Breggin urges.

No word on whether or not he thinks fluoride is robbing us of our precious essences

3) This is propaganda. Notice how it starts out with a scare story that has nothing to do with ADHD - - it is an issue of who should control medical treatment. This could as easily have happened over refusing to give kids flu shots. Second, notice how the article quotes only doctors opposed to the ADHD and no studies -- and how the other side is not allowed to present their case. Notice also how the article doesn't report fact - -it editorializes. This is Fox News level crap.

4)Relevance, please? It's an article about how the bio-chemical signature of the disease might be nailed down. It has nothing really substantive to do with anything about what we are discussing - -aside form the fact that it implies the diseases is definitely real.

5) Again, propaganda. One side only presented, with only interpretation of the prescription numbers given. It is not even suggested, even, that the estimates of prevalence are wrong, so the drug MUST be overprescribed. Nor are other uses for ritalin discussed - -it must be for ADHD. Sloppy thinking and unimpressive.

6)Wow. A ten year old press release and anecdotal data. Bowl me over with a feather.

7)This is actually a good piece of journalism. It looks at the issue and tries to get at the truth. Note, however, that the article contradicts the notion that the drug is wildly over-prescribed:

Although critics have suggested that Ritalin is overprescribed for children, a study last December found that doctors use about 2½ times more Ritalin for hyperactive and inattentive children than in 1990—a much smaller increase than feared.
The research, reported in the December issue of Pediatrics, said some 1.5 million young people ages 5 through 18, or 2.8 percent of the nation's school-age children, take the drug.

Did you read the links? Cause that fact contradicts "information" in four or five of the previous links. One of the common arguments is that the drug is being used by 5-15% of kids and so must be overprescribed - -this shows it is being used by 2.8% of kids - -on the low end of estimates for how many kids suffer form the condition. Though, mind you, this is a nine year old article. I am not sure what relevance it has now.

8)Interesting, but not sure of the relevance: it is an article debating the causes of ADHD, not its existence, and, whether seven years ago, the diagnosis was occasionally making OTHER valid learning disorder diagnosis. Hardly evidence of a vast problem of over diagnosing/prescribing and kinda meaningless unless we know where the state of research on the issue currently is.

9)One doctor's opinion, unbacked by studies, from six years ago. And, mind you, he says the drug is both over and under prescribed, largely because of questions about whether pediatricians were being properly educated. Note, please, on the links I posted this issues was addressed - -in 2005, the consensus of the medical profession was that pediatricians were now properly equipped to make these determinations. Unless you have something more modern than six years ago to counter that, then this article is ancient history.

10) Article: the problem is real, but the Demon Sugar causes it. No, I have no actual evidence of this, but, hey, kids eat a lot of sugar! That doesn't qualify as science. Or an argument for that matter.

So, lots of propaganda and one sided articles without the hint of real journalism, lots of information from more than six years ago that has been countered by more recent studies, lots of articles that actually undermine the main contention of anti-medicine advocates, and precious little reference to actual data. And what data was referenced has been superseded by newer studies.

Not impressive and not convincing to someone who doesn't already believe in the evil of medicines.

Now, for some real evidence back by studies. This is from 2003:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030203&s=fumento020303

opponent and author, when he declares, "ADD is a disorder that cannot be authoritatively identified in the same way as polio, heart disease or other legitimate illnesses."

The Armstrong and Fukuyama observations are as correct as they are worthless. "Half of all medical disorders are diagnosed without benefit of a lab procedure," notes Dr. Russell Barkley, professor of psychology at the College of Health Professionals at the Medical University of South Carolina. "Where are the lab tests for headaches and multiple sclerosis and Alzheimer's?" he asks. "Such a standard would virtually eliminate all mental disorders."

Often the best diagnostic test for an ailment is how it responds to treatment. And, by that standard, it doesn't get much more real than ADHD. The beneficial effects of administering stimulants to treat the disorder were first reported in 1937. And today medication for the disorder is reported to be 75 to 90 percent successful. "In our trials it was close to ninety percent," says Dr. Judith Rapoport, director of the National Institute of Mental Health's Child Psychiatry Branch, who has published about 100 papers on ADHD. "This means there was a significant difference in the children's ability to function in the classroom or at home."

Additionally, epidemiological evidence indicates that ADHD has a powerful genetic component. University of Colorado researchers have found that a child whose identical twin has the disorder is between eleven and 18 times more likely to also have it than is a non-twin sibling. For these reasons, the American Psychiatric Association (APA), American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry, the surgeon general's office, and other major medical bodies all acknowledge ADHD as both real and treatable.

(snip)

"I have two non-ADHD children, so it's not a matter of parenting technique," says Charen. "People without such children have no idea what it's like. I can tell the difference between boyish high spirits and pathological hyperactivity. ... These kids bounce off the walls. Their lives are chaos; their rooms are chaos. And nothing replaces the drugs."

Barkley and Rapoport say research backs her up. Randomized, controlled studies in both the United States and Sweden have tried combining medication with behavioral interventions and then dropped either one or the other. For those trying to go on without medicine, "the behavioral interventions maintained nothing," Barkley says. Rapoport concurs: "Unfortunately, behavior modification doesn't seem to help with ADHD." (Both doctors are quick to add that ADHD is often accompanied by other disorders that are treatable through behavior modification in tandem with medicine.)

(snip)

Pediatrics found that children who take Ritalin or other stimulants to control ADHD cut their risk of future substance abuse by 50 percent compared with untreated ADHD children. The lead author speculated that "by treating ADHD you're reducing the demoralization that accompanies this disorder, and you're improving the academic functioning and well-being of adolescents and young adults during the critical times when substance abuse starts."

(snip)

A report in the January 2003 issue of Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine did find a large increase in the use of ADHD medicines from 1987 to 1996, an increase that doesn't appear to be slowing. Yet nobody thinks it's a problem that routine screening for high blood pressure has produced a big increase in the use of hypertension medicine. "Today, children suffering from ADHD are simply less likely to slip through the cracks," says Dr. Sally Satel, a psychiatrist, AEI fellow, and author of PC, M.D.: How Political Correctness Is Corrupting Medicine.

Satel agrees that some community studies, by the standards laid down in the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), indicate that ADHD may often be over-diagnosed. On the other hand, she says, additional evidence shows that in some communities ADHD is under-diagnosed and under-treated. "I'm quite concerned with children who need the medication and aren't getting it," she says.

Show me something -- real studies in articles that take all sides of the issue into consideration -- that contradicts this and the other links and studies I have linked to and then we can talk.

[rug]

77. But did you like the cover cartoon?

[Redstone]

86. kcr, I don't know you, but damn, I wish I did. EXCELLENT post.

Yes, indeed.

Redstone

[Redstone]

10. Thank you so much for introducing a dose of reality. I'll bet the OP

doesn't have kids.

And you said it a LOT more politely than I did, a couple of replies below.

Great post. Thank you for taking the time to type it.

Redstone

[kcr]

71. Thanks

[Xipe Totec]

78. No, thank YOU! - sincerely

As the biological father of two boys, one of which is ADHD, the other not, I know there is a real, detectable. and genuine difference between children with ADHD and those without. For the sake of my child, I am glad that this condition is amenable to treatment.

Regarding concerns of impact to creativity, my boy who is ADHD is now in his 20's, and is a poet of the first order.

I love Calvin & Hobbes, but on this subject, Watterson is flat wrong.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. It's not Watterson.

Some asshat replaced what the strip actually says.

I'm also in my 20s take 30mg Adderall XR everyday and I also write poetry and do photography and collages. I guess it hasn't stifled my creativity either.

[Xipe Totec]

80. Thanks for the correction!

I'm so glad to hear that strip is a phony.

:thumbsup:

When you become the success you are destined to become, remember your buddies here at DU.

:hug:

[Midlodemocrat]

81. haruka3_2000, at the risk of being the Frist of DU,

I would like to recommend that you take a cautious approach to the Adderall as you get older. Because it is essentially a stimulant, it CAN be hard on the cardiovascular system of an older person, which is why it usually isn't prescribed for adults.

You are still young enough to be able to avoid the pitfalls, but given what my husband just went through with NO risk factors, I feel almost compelled to try and educate those taking ANY kind of stimulant about the potential for adverse cardiovascular effects.

I'm not talking out of my you know what. I WAS in a previous life, a practicing clinical pscychologist and chose not to continue practicing for the quality of my family's life, but I have totally kept up with all the information put forth by all the professional organizations.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

85. My doctor checks me out monthly

Currently I have a perfect heart rate and blood pressure, but I'll keep that in mind.

[LeftyMom]

19. And for every kid like that

how many suffer because they're medicated for a "condition" they haven't got? My kid's half-sister is on Concerta. There are precisely two things wrong with her: she's unlucky enough to go to a school that bores her, and she was born to a mother stupid enough to think having two babies in her late 30s when she already had a preteen and a full time job was a good idea. (It's not a concidence that her "diagnosis" was made shortly after her mother went back to work after having her second kid.) Nobody at her shitty country school wants to give her attention, her mother can't be bothered and all the sudden some dumbass backwoods doctor has a perfectly healthy girl pilled to the gills.

So now she's a fucking zombie, except every other day in the summer time, when she gets to skip her medication, eat and maybe even enjoy life be herself, provided her mother doesn't see (or she'll make her take her pill that day.) She doesn't eat when she's on the medication (one night for dinner I made her spaghetti, which she loves she ate one forkfull and half of a baby carrot,) to the point where she's only a few flies away from looking like a Save the Children commercial, but she's compliant and willing to be ignored and that's what the medication is for.

That's what medication does to kids who don't need it. I'd much rather see dietary treatement (works wonders for LeftyKid) and changes to the educational system than see any kid have to go through that. ADD is a bullshit diagnosis anyhow, it's a need to control normal human behavior, particularly that of boys.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. Actually, ADD isn't a

bullshit dx. It is on the autism spectrum and it is very real and very hard to live with if you have it, or have a child with it. Picture your brain as though you were flipping the channels on your television with your remote. Never lighting long enough to have any meaningful impact or impression, and unable to stay focused to absorb the information. That is what living with ADD is like for many, many people.

Some children do extremely well on a modified Feingold diet. Others, not so much. The diet is very restrictive and if you have other family members, almost prohibitive to adhere to.

And, like I said to MiniMandaRuth downthread, if the child is having those significant side effects, she is on either the wrong meds or the wrong dose. Methylphenidate, which is what Concerta is only that Concerta is a timed release form, DOES impact appetite in certain patients. This particular side effect will go away IF the patient is diligent about taking the meds and if it doesn't go away, the dose is too high.

Zombie like behavior is something this child and her family shouldn't put up with. All the methylphenidate is, really, is a stimulant that forces the brain waves to focus better. It is actually fascinating to watch an EEG of brainwaves both before/during/after taking any of this class of drug.

[LeftyMom]

25. It's a variation on human normal behavior

Anyhow, there is nothing wrong with this girl. Well, she's astoundingly bad at math, but other than that, she's very normal. But she's in a chemical straitjacket, because it's convenient for the adults in her life.

Oddly enough, she does better with academic stuff on days she does not take her medication. On Concerta, she floats through life without taking much interest in anything, or expending any great effort, but she doesn't rebel or talk back (or talk at all, unless you ask her a direct question and don't mind a monosylabic answer.) Apparently her mother, teachers and doctors find this preferable to the vibrant, bright girl she is when she's allowed to be herself.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. So is autism.

ADD is an autism spectrum disorder and one could argue, rightly so, that all of us fall on that spectrum in some manner or form.

The problem with ADD arises with the expectations placed on children in school and their inability to rise to them. Their self esteem suffers, they lack appropriate social interactive skills and generally are having a terrible time of it.

Watching the brain waves of a child with ADD and comparing it to a child without ADD is shocking. The misfiring of neurons, for lack of a better phrase, is astonishing.

[LeftyMom]

30. We shouldn't medicate children to conform to the school system

We need to give them an appropriate education tailored to thier needs. It's unreasonable to the point of absurdity expect thirty children to learn the same thing in the same way at the same pace even if they are all neurotypical.

[Midlodemocrat]

31. Unfortunately FAPE doesn't tailor education to

everyone's needs. It isn't economically feasible. In a perfect world it would be, but it begs the larger question....getting along in school is simply a precursor to getting along with your employer. I'm the first to admit that I am not a big fan of totally specialized and individualized education. To me, part of education is learning to get along and adapt.

Probably not a popular opinion, especially when I homeschooled my son this year.

[Redstone]

33. Oops. Dupe.

Redstone

[Redstone]

34. Hey, when I was a kid I got BEATEN to make me conform.

Is that a better approach than medication?

Redstone

[newcriminal]

39. Redstone, just because it helps you and your son

does not mean that it is not over prescibed. Sit back and listen to yourself. Your jumping on any one that says it shouldn't be prescribed to certain children. I am sure you don't think it should be prescribed to every child out there, do you? I'm glad that it helps you and your family that doesn't take away the fact that way to many children are taking it.

[Redstone]

42. I'm talking about the people who say it shouldn't be prescribed

to anyone, that ADD is imaginary, and all that. That cartoon personifies that bullshit.

ADD is REAL. If you can get your son's symptoms under control with diet, that's great. But you, m'dear, were the one who said that ADD doesn't exist.

My point is that it does. If diet can help, so much the better. If medicine is needed, well, then medicine is needed.

True?

Redstone

[newcriminal]

44. you, m'dear are wrong

I never once said that ADD did not exist. I have said over and over again that Ritalin is over prescribed. The cartoon in my opinion, is about a little boy who doesn't need medicated and is therefore right on the mark.

[Redstone]

46. I wasn't replying to you. I was talking to LeftyMom.

Redstone

[newcriminal]

47. you replied directly to me

maybe you should quit being so defensive and read who is writing.

[Redstone]

50. Hey, thanks for the advice! I'll remember that!

We learn so much here...

Redstone

[newcriminal]

52. you did reply to me

leftymom didn't have a son who they wanted to take the meds it was mine. I didn't say add didn't exist she did. You are so wound up that you aren't making any sense. I would like a reply to my post from you. Do you believe all children should be on Ritalin or not? Since it helps you and your son, does that mean that it is not over prescribed?

[Redstone]

53. So I replied to the wrong person. My mistake. That doesn't mean I'm about

to engage in a pissing match with you.

You want a reply? I'll be glad to correspond with you at any length via PM (or in any forum), as long as you cut out the straw-man bullshit "challenging" questions, and stop putting words in my mouth.

This is the ONLY reply you're going to get until you cut that crap out.

Period.

Redstone

[newcriminal]

55. I find it amusing that you can argue with the post, but

you can't answer a simple question. I have not once put words in your mouth, and if asking you if every child should be on Ritalin is a challenging question for you than I quess you have never really been challenged before.

[Redstone]

56. I told you, end of discussion. From now on, you're a moth who thinks

he's beating the hell out of a lightbulb.

Have at it and enjoy yourself, because I won't read your posts.

Redstone

[newcriminal]

58. because you can't have an intelligent disagreement

with someone you dismiss the person? You have posted several messages on here, fighting whether children should be medicated or not without actually reading what the hell they are saying. I never once said that no child should be medicated, my stand is and will always be that ritalin is over prescribed. You are the one here that's a dim bulb my friend.

[tigereye]

68. there are many children who would benefit from behavioral

interventions at school prior to the use of medications, or from a thorough assessment of what the learning problems really are. There are so many types of instruction that can be used. The medications do benefit some kids, so that they can focus enough to learn, as several people here have said.

I agree with you that a more flexible school system with smaller classrooms would lead to more creative interventions, depending on the kid. I know many parents who purposely send their kids to our small private school so that their children won't be labelled.

One of the most interesting men I have met recently ( who now has a doctorate in education) told me that he was hyperactive as a kid and his teacher simply told him to stand in the back of the room, or to get up when he needed to move. That was her solution and worked for him. Obviously every child is different and this would not work for everyone. I've seen a variety of interventions work. It really depends on the kid.

[Redstone]

32. LM, this is all anecdotal and loaded with unsupported opinion.

I KNOW you're smarter than that.

Redstone

[Redstone]

29. ADD, m'dear, is NOT bullshit. I live with it. Do you think I'd accept a

"bullshit diagnosis?"

Just asking.

Redstone

[LeftyMom]

37. What I'm saying is that it's not abnormal

It's a normal and naturally occuring variation in human behavior. Sometimes organic, sometimes similar symptoms are induced situationally or by diet. I don't doubt that the symptoms are real, but I think it's massively overdiagnosed and often treated chemically when situational changes or changes in diet would do to minimize the issue.

The diagnostic criteria are rather subjective and elastic though, which makes it easier for it to be the current faddish diagnosis, the way a need for ear tubes was when I was a kid and chronic tonsilitis was when my mom was small. Pediatric medicine in general is rather prone to the diagnosis of the week phenomenon, although it's pretty common in mental health as well.

[Redstone]

43. All that is true, but remember this: When I started taking Ritalin

(at the age of 40), it was like being myopic all my life and having my first pair of glasses.

ADD is real. Please don't say it isn't, because I KNOW otherwise.

Redstone

[tigereye]

69. studies from the Amer. Pediatric Association a few years ago

noted that it was not overdiagnosed. But I can understand why parents are so skeptical since many of the actual clinical descriptors can seem rather "poetic." But you need to use the correct scales and it has to be a problem in both home and school settings. There have been a boatload of rigorous studies done over the years, too.

I've been working with kids with ADHD for years, and I go back and forth about how I feel about it. :)

[kcr]

72. FActs, Please

"how many suffer because they're medicated for a "condition" they haven't got".

See, you say that but you cannot produce any numbers. More studies show the condition under diagnosed and under medicated than over:

http://www.dbpeds.org/articles/detail.cfm?TextID=129

Unless you have actual numbers, all you are doing is repeating a personal prejudice as if it has some empirical value. Which is what you are doing with the story of your sister's kid. You make dislike your sister's choice, but you don't live with the child, you don't work with the child, and you haven't seen or not seen what the effect in school and her ability to perform normally is. Anyone who says this:

"ADD is a bullshit diagnosis anyhow, it's a need to control normal human behavior, particularly that of boys"

despite all the evidence to the contrary is singularly unpersuasive when she discusses anyone who is being treated. You obviously have a deep and abiding hatred of the diagnosis, for whatever reason. Normally I would ignore it. But people like you would deny my child the chance to be himself. You would keep him locked inside a cage that his brain has built for him, kept away from education, from creativity, from really experiencing the world because you think your niece doesn't eat enough. Pardon me if I am not impressed.

[Kajsa]

75. Thank you, kcr.

Thank you for speaking out against the
barrage of anti-medication propaganda
out in society.

My son has ADHD and borderline autism.
He's in the high functioning spectrum.
Even though at age 22, he's outgrown
many of the hyper behaviors he had as
a small child, he most definitely needs
help with his fleeting attention, focus
and impulsively.

Because he does take medication, he
can work part-time, go to school
part-time and have a bit of a social life.

True, there are countless numbers of
children who may not need meds, Drs.
who over prescribe them, and some parents
who seek medications as a way to control there kids.

But there are more like us, parents of young people
who truly need them.

Thanks for speaking up for all of us.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Redstone]

3. Balls. I've been taking Ritalin for 14 years. It has NOT dulled my

creativity or imagination; in fact I've spent those same 14 years as a marketing / advertising agency, which is something I'd NEVER done before that.

So, would someone explain to me how I was able to take a business that I started with $700 in the bank, and build it to over a quarter-million in billing a year, doing all the creaitve work myself if Ritalin kills creativity and imagination?

Of course you wouldn't know, because you'll condemn it without even having tried it.

So...if your kid had epilepsy, you wouldn't let him take medicine to control it, I assume?

Fuck this. Ignorance makes me angry, and I don't want to be angry tonight.

Whne you want to offer a judgement about something you actually know something about, I'll be glad to listen.

Redstone

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

61. I've been on Adderall for two years.

I chose to go on it as an adult and I realize that I probably should have been on it earlier. You're right. It doesn't change my creativity at all and I function better. People need to realize that if the kid is turned into a zombie then they're on the wrong med/dose whatever.

[newcriminal]

64. or maybe the child doesn't need medicated.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

65. Maybe they do and it's the wrong medication.

That's up for the parents and the doctor to decide. I do think medication over-prescribed in some cases, but it doesn't mean that there aren't people that need it. I made it through school in advanced classes and pretty crappy grades (super high test scores though). Probably I would have done better had I been medicated. I chose to go on it as an adult and it does help me function.

I'll be nice and not correct your grammar.

[Redstone]

84. Yes, you're right. My son did poorly on all the stimulants. But he ended

up taking Strattera, which is not a stimulant, and it's worked great for him.

PS: That may not be bad grammar; it may be a regional dialect. See my reply to his post, a bit downthread.

Redstone

[Redstone]

83. "Maybe the child doesn't need medicated." Are you from central/western PA?

Just curious. That's a distinctive dialectic pattern from that area.

"The house needs cleaned." "The lawn needs mowed."

Some think it's an offshoot of the german origins of the Pennsylvania "Dutch," but others don't.

Just asking.

Redstone

[Redstone]

82. Damn, you have a talent for saying things well, and succinctly.

Outstanding post, addressing both sides of the issue with only two sentences.

Redstone

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. Thank you.

Most of my actual writing, generally poetry, tends to put a lot into a little.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

93. You want to know the truth, Redstone?

I've known many an artist in my day. Nearly married one. Almost all of them used this same argument. Not just for ADD and ritalin, but also for things like OCD, bipolar, and mania.

You want to know what the truth of it was in each of their cases?*

They were all talentless hacks that basically used their disabilities as a crutch and they were too fucking scared to lose what little talent they actually had because the drugs take away what makes them so different (and also nearly completely unable to function as a normal, healthy human being.) The truth is that creativity and talent are not directly related to acting like a spaz - it's just an excuse to get away with doing so.

on edit - * I am speak SPECIFICALLY TO THESE CASES. I am NOT making a generalization.

[HughBeaumont]

4. Man, if that post doesn't hit home.

I didn't even realize what was wrong with me (ADHD) until it was too late into adulthood. Concentration and focus and never seeing ANYthing through to the end has killed my whole life. I sucked at school because I just plain and simple was not interested in anything. NONE of the teachers I had made their subjects the least bit intriguing. You more or less learned how to become a worker, not a cultured human being. It's like all of them went through the motions and gave no shit if they were reaching anyone or not. Most of the teachers made more effort to ridicule me rather than help me or at least try to diagnose my problem, which none of them did.

I work a boring career only because it pays bills and out of all career choices, I hate it the least. I mean, think of anything corporate. Can you fathom people having a passion for something so wrist-slittingly dull? That's how I feel about nearly EVERY corporate career. Marketing, sales, IT, programming, teaching, doctor, lawyer, etc. These people who talk financial analysis almost with as much detail and recall like I talk about 70s music make me cringe. How do people get up in the MORNING for that shit?

It's times like this that make me think, "why didn't I just stick with music as a career? Or SOMEthing artistic?"

But like the above poster said, creativity isn't rewarded any longer in modern society. Knowing lots of meaningless trivia doesn't pay a dime. They give all the money to the plastic surgeons and attorneys. I mean, music fulfills me and makes me happy, but let's not kid ourselves, I gotta eat. I gotta pay a mortgage. I have a family now. Music has turned into a crapshoot with very few actually making decent livings at it.

[Redstone]

11. Uh, excuse me? I was a professional musician. And made a decent

living doing it, but I stopped doing it because something else caught my interest.

Sound familiar? Sound like ADD?

You think maybe I might have still been a professional musician today if I had the medication that would have let me concentrate on it, instead of swanning off to the next thing that caught my eye?

I think so. Wish I had known about ADD and Ritalin back then.

Redstone

[HughBeaumont]

15. I don't know, are you here to pick fights or have a discussion?

Sounds to me like the former. Seriously, why the hyper-defensiveness and bragadoccio? Things panned out for you, wow, great job. For every you, there are 10,000 others where it didn't happen for them. That's life, not control. And the music business is exactly how I described it - a crapshoot. No one HAS to like you.

Nobody, including the OP, is really shitting on drugs for kids. My child is on adderol and it helps. His spirit isn't dulled by it.

My post was mere reflection on what could have been with me (and may still be, it's not too late). I'm not taking a stand one way or the other about medicine.

[Redstone]

18. No, the OP is ABSOLUTELY "shitting on drugs for kids."

That's why I'm so cranked up. Even Mrs R and I, who of ANYONE should have known better, avoided starting our little guy on ADHD medication, even though it was clear he needed it (because we thought he was too young)...until our pediatrician looked at us and said "if he was diabetic, would you hesitate to give him insulin?"

Ouch.

Redstone

[jpgray]

6. Works and is necessary for some, but is way over-prescribed in my view

I mean, the symptoms list for ADD sound like a general list of kid behaviors--one has to wonder whether or not the pharmaceutical companies are trying to widen the field of "need" for this drug more than is necessary. I don't dispute that people get good things out of it, I just don't believe that every hyperactive, bored-in-school kid needs the drug.

[Redstone]

13. No, no God Damn it, NO! Do you have kids? Do they have ADD? Do you?

If not, then you don't know a damn thing about it.

You can read the "symptoms list" for just about ANY disease and conclude that just about anyone has it. That's a ridiculous statement...read the "symptoms list" for MS and tell me you can't find some that apply to you, even if you don't have MS.

Redstone

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

96. Gee, if you lash out like that at a balanced open-minded opinion like this

then it's painfully apparent you DO need the medication you're taking. SOME people MAY have it foisted upon them when they don't need it, that's all.

[RandomKoolzip]

97. Zing!

[MiniMandaRuth]

8. It's true.

I knew a girl who was an amazing artist last year. Her canvas's were filled with amazing splashes of light, dark, and morning grey. With crimson, cyan, marigold, sapphire, and emerald. With love, with hope, with evil, with hate.

Her parents thought she was 'overactive' and put her on ritilan.

She's never painted since.

On edit: Since i read some other posts in this thread, don't attack me. I'm sticking to what I said.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. If Ritalin did that to her, she's on the wrong medication or the wrong

dose. Ritalin doesn't shut down creativity. She may have other co-morbidity issues like depression which have prevented her from painting.

I prescribed Ritalin for dozens of kids. But,only and I mean only when they met all the criteria for ADD, ADHD or ADID. It works phenomenally well in the right dosage and with the right medication, whether long acting or not.

Every drug in this class is overprescribed. Teachers are constantly telling parents that their child needs 'medication', because some, it not a lot of them are WAY overworked with NCLB and standards of learning. Teachers are violating the law by telling a parent that their child needs to be medicated, because in a sense, they are offering a diagnosis which they are not qualified to do.

Parents are also requesting that their kids be put on Ritalin because the focus issue is huge. The drug works. It works well. I had parents of three year olds ask me to prescribe it because the child was 'overactive'. Have you ever seen a three year old who wasn't?

Talk to your friend. Find out what is going on with her. Ritalin didn't cause her to stop painting. Trust me on that.

[Redstone]

14. Teachers in our state are barred by law from doing that.

I simply do NOT believe that "teacher pressure" happens as much as people say it does.

I sure hope these folks listen to you, because you're a professional and none of them are; their statements are all anecdotal and / or hearsay.

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

16. It is against the law in all 50 states for a teacher to offer a medical

diagnosis, problem is, most of them don't realize that is what they are doing.

My own son's first grade teacher tried it with me and I had to shut her down about it. I knew he had focusing issues, but he doesn't have the hyperactivity component, and he didn't do well on any drug in the methylphenidate class, so we ended up doing neurofeedback.

It has been a long, tough road for him and for us. He has virtually no short term memory, which is probably a component of the ADID, but has an IQ of 146. Doesn't sound like a problem student does he?

The issues faced by parents are often heartbreaking. We pulled him out of 8th grade and homeschooled him this year because his math teacher told me that compliance with his 504 (which is a learning program for children who have been diagnosed with a learning disorder, one step down from an IEP) was a 'courtesy', not a requirement.

How do you argue with such ignorance? Coupled with the fact that my son hadn't started his growth spurt, the middle school years were just Hell on Earth.

People think that taking any of the ADD drugs is 'quick fix'. Those ridiculous notions are compounded by stupid college students who take it to pull all-nighters, so to the uninitiated, it appears to be the current generations's NoDoze.

It is very frustrating to me and one of the reasons I'm not currently practicing. When I practiced in CT, the pressure to medicate was ridiculous. So ridiculous that the child who truly needed it was dismissed as having over anxious parents and a child would often go for years without proper medication. I refused to even discuss the possibility that a child had ADD until they were at least in 2nd grade. You can't judge a child's hyperactivity component until they can read. Additionally, the ability to sit through a television show or play a video game isn't an indicator that a child has or doesn't have ADD or any other ASD.

I always said to the parents who were pressuring me "Would you give your child a chemotherapy drug if they didn't have cancer? Just in case? Well, why do you want me to give your child a drug they don't need, just in case?"

Parents and stupid educators take away from the kids and adults who really, really need the drug. You probably know this, but I'll ask you anyway. Were you aware that children who are undiagnosed have much lower self esteem because their social skills are so poor? That breaks my heart. We can do so much better by our kids.

[Redstone]

21. To answer your question: Yes, I am aware of that. I LIVED that.

And the stimulants are not always the answer. Our little guy did not react well to any of them, and we were damn lucky that Strattera came along. Not a stimulant (as you know) but boy, does it work for him.

So well, in fact, that we've been able to tell in short order when he's outgrown his dosage.

Thank you, bless you for the work you do with those kids. Having lived for 40 years without the medication, and 12 years with it, I know the difference it can make. Up close and personal, as they say.

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

23. Strattera was a better choice for my son as well.

And, as you indicate, it's very, very obvious when we need to titrate up the dose.

One caveat of which you are probably aware. Strattera has a propensity for liver toxicity. Have his liver enzymes checked regularly just to give you peace of mind.

That being said. That particular drug is an absolute Godsend for some kids.

[Redstone]

28. His pediatrician's on top of the liver stuff. We're damn luck to have him.

Can you PM me and tell me where you practiced in Connecticut? Just curious, because it's a small state and all.

PS: Hope things are still progressing well for your husband.

Redstone

[Kajsa]

88. Midlodemocrat, teachers in CA. are not allowed to

suggest any student take medication.

I substitute a lot in Special Ed. classes.
Because of my son, ( See response #76 )I have a lot
of background in working with these students.

Teachers may suggest medical attention be given a student.
i.e. Testing for hearing, eyesight, and physical causes as to why
a student has difficulties with learning.

Beyond that, it's off limits for us.

[Midlodemocrat]

90. It's illegal in all 50 states for a teacher to suggest

or diagnose any medical disorder. Like I said elsewhere on this thread, the problem is, a lot of teachers are unaware of that, especially those who aren't teaching in special ed. The federal regulations regarding special ed students are generally drilled into the teacher's heads, aide's heads, substitute's heads to ward off lawsuits.

[Redstone]

20. By the way: "Her parents put her on Ritalin?" Sorry, but when I was

in high school, if my parents "put me on" any medication that I didn't want to take, I'd damn sure have found a way to NOT take it, and they'd never know I wasn't.

You may want to suggest this to your friend.

Redstone

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

62. It's either the wrong med or some other issue.

ADD meds shouldn't change a person's creativity. If it totally affects a person like that, then they should try a different med. I take Adderall XR and it works great for me. Ritalin doesn't seem to affect me much at all. There's plenty of different things she could be on and she needs to find the right one. Or maybe she's depressed or something.

[RedCappedBandit]

17. I'm a huge calvin & hobbes fan

That is quite a powerful panel

[edwin]

24. Pardon me for asking, people:

but despite all the harsh words in this thread, there are some questions/remarks to be made. One is that the scientific evidence for ADD/ADHD is pretty much non-existent. Two is that there are way many more kids in the US diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, and on Ritalin & Adderall than in countries in Western Europe. Why is that?

The numbers are increasing though, which would seem to indicate that it has something to do with changes in our culture/society. Interesting, isn't it?

[Redstone]

38. No, the scientific evidence IS there.

Redstone

[edwin]

60. Well

From what I am seeing, there is no concensus about that amongst scientists. Maybe I have been reading the wrong scientists?

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

91. Actually, the scientific evidence to support any of these diagnoses

does exist. Scientists and psychologist/psychiatrists are still trying to understand why some medication classes work and others don't. Why some variations of the Feingold diet work on some kids and not on others.

The brain is an incredibly complex thing. Just now in 2006, those of us in the psychiatric community are still trying to figure out the right 'cocktail' to treat various mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc. Did you know that if a child is diagnosed with bipolar disorder and placed on anti-depressants, it invariably increases the chance of suicide? Not at all what the doctor was hoping for.

The problem with ADD or any of the autism spectrum disorders is that a great deal of the process of diagnose is subjective on the part of the parent and/or teacher. The forms used by most therapists to 'understand' the child, have a great many subjective questions. The objective part of the diagnose doesn't come until after the therapist analyzes the subjective.

Additionally, some therapists will put a child on meds prior to their ability to read. I never did that. I felt and have always felt that a child's ability/inability to 'sit still' and do his/her homework or school work was an integral part of the diagnosis.

My daughter, who is ten, was tagged as 'gifted' :eyes: in second grade. She has the worst case of 'ants in the pants' that I have ever seen. The child simply cannot sit still. However, because she doesn't have any attentional issues at all, I wouldn't even consider putting her on meds. She's just 'busy'.

My son, who is 14, has enormous attentional issues and did from the time he was born. With all my children, when I was admonishing them, I would always say "Look at Mommy". He couldn't. He would look and then immediately look away. His little brain wouldn't allow him to focus on my eyes long enough to follow the instructions I was giving him.

Hope this clears things up a bit for you. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. Peace.

[rug]

26. Calvin is a great cartoon.

I don't give a shit who's taking what medicine and who isn't. Anyone who reads this much into a cartoon, go back to the pharmacist and see what's on the bill for anger management this week.

That lifeless tiger and tamed boy, compared to the Calvin and Hobbes of the cartoon, is very sad. Submission, by medicine or conformity, is the message, not anyone's medical history.

[enigmatic]

35. I agree

:thumbsup:

[Redstone]

40. I happen to TAKE that medicine. It does NOT do what that cartoon

says it does. And it's not fucking 'submission," it's a choice.

That cartoon in inflammatory bullshit. And it's not the truth. That's why some of us are upset with it.

Redstone

[rug]

41. And what the hell do you think the cartoon is saying?

It doesn't even mention a medicine. Get off your high horse.

[Redstone]

45. It says "Mom says the pills must be working." Is THAT mentioning

medicine, or is it not?

Guess I can stay on the horse for a while more.

Redstone

[rug]

48. Guess not, unless you're taking Strattera, Ritalin and Concerta.

And any other medicine in that grouping. Because you did write you're taking "THAT" (sic) medicine.

Please don't tell me what you're taking. I really don't care. I'd rather consider the actual point the cartoon is making.

[Redstone]

49. The actual point is that it's condemning ALL medications.

Fuck it. I give up. I'm invoking Redstone's Rule #2: Never argue with someone who has the same answer for every question.

You win, OK?

Redstone

[rug]

51. OK

[wildhorses]

36. it is not too late to have the family life...

I love Calvin and Hobbes...my all time favorite cartoon.

[RagingInMiami]

57. How old are you?

I'm ADHD and didn't get on Ritalin until I was 26. I am 37 and I still struggle. All my life it's been a struggle, but it's less of a stuggle on the meds. I now take Adderall.

Your story sounds very familiar to mine.

There is nothing wrong with being a mid-level manager.

[1monster]

63. I believe a lot of children are misdiagnosed with ADD or ADHD when

they have other problems. My stepson for one was diagnosed with ADD when he really had Aspergers Syndrome. Ritilan does not help and quite hurts misdiagnosed kids.

As a teacher, I've seen kids have widely divergent reactions to ADD/ADHD drugs... One boy took his regular dose in the school office. Ten minutes after he came back to class, I was calling for another teacher to help get the kid back to the office because he was practically passed out. He had the symptoms of a serious over dose. Another time, the same dose of the same drug had little noticiable effect.

Another kid would be somewhat loopy and unable to focus before lunch, would have his Rx dose at lunch and come back to class so drowsey that he was barely able to stay awake.

My husband who is nearing 60 has ADHD, so I am (very) familiar with the challenges faced by those with ADD/ADHD.

I think today we reach for a pharmaceutical solution far too quickly without considering the short and long term options. Teaching a person how to work around ADHD may have a more effective and lasting effect than the stimulent drugs we pour into our children.

I am not suggesting that drugs should not be considered on a case by case basis (as indeed all drug regimens should be considered), but drugs are an easy cop out. Drugs alone do not deal effectively with ADD/ADHD. Behavior management is needed with and without the prescription drugs.

[Midlodemocrat]

66. I agree with some of what you said, but not all.

Like I said upthread, I put lots of kids on Ritalin. It works. I also worked with some families regarding behavior modification and that can work as well.

Generally, the behavior management you are speaking of applies to reteaching the child, or in some cases, the adult, the coping skills necessary to be successful in the venue they choose. Social interaction skills are huge and social skills training as well as 'body language' classes are very, very important for a child with any of the disorders on the ADS. Most children with Asperger's have issues regarding personal space, etc., I'm sure you know what I mean.

The methylphenidate class works extraordinarily well. There is no disputing this. Children who require this class of drug do very, very well on it, as do adults. The SNRI class is newer and as such, there is less empirical evidence to suggest it is as effective, however, anecdotal evidence is heartening. It seems to be as effective in certain children without the anorexic issues and in adults without the cardiovascular risk.

There is no question that too many children are getting this drug. There is also no denying that this is a real disorder and these classes of pharmaceuticals help.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. What a rotten cartoon.

Not only is it an insult to kids and ADHD...

They've gone and plagiarised Bil Waterson.

Fucking pricks.

[rug]

74. It's Watterson.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. No, it's not.

They've photoshopped the dialog and edited out his name.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

92. What's the dialogue in the original?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. It's out of sequence.

Can't find the original, but apparently it was the Jan. 7th, 1990 strip.

It's only two panels from the original.

[Burma Jones]

94. My Younger Brother took Ritalin as a child and takes it now

He's an NYU Film School Graduate

His latest Short Subject Film won the Chelsea Film Festival and was part of the Cannes Film Festival. Without Ritalin, I don't think he would be able to live and work in NYC.


I would have been on Ritalin had it been around in the late 60's and early 70's. I have been on Welbutrin, not any more, still, I struggle mightily to get things done. But, I have a Doctorate in Computing and make enough money to actually benefit (materially) from being Republican (this whole having a brain and soul thing gets in the way...), and I have a house and a family (of course, it took me about ten years longer than most folks to get these things). I've also played the 9:30 Club in DC, directed theatre professionally, appeared on a few CDs and sing in a top notch choral ensemble..... So, quit whining and go do something, you can make your own schedule......