Vegetarians: How did you decide to go vegetarian?

[jobycom]

Response to the Carnivore thread, which I didn't post in since it wasn't directed at me. Talk about how you went veg. What problems did you overcome, aside from the many questions from non-veggies. "Can you eat fish? How do you get protein? Can you eat chicken? What the hell is wrong with you? Can you eat oysters? etc."

Me, I started thinking about it even as a teen in the early 80s, but never looked seriously into it until I was in grad school in my mid twenties, and had begun to pork up like a Bush military spending bill. At that point I "cleaned up" my diet, including limiting meat, and felt great. I steal ate meat, just less often, and I stopped cooking it--only ate it when i went out, which was at times often, at time rare.

Finally, just before 9-11, a series of things happened. I got sick at a friend's cookout off meat, and didn't eat anything for a couple of days. Then 9-11 happened, then the next morning a friend of mine killed herself. Stress makes me stop eating, but by that night I was starving, having been sick and without food. I went out to eat and started to order a steak, but all I could think of--remember, I'm in shock and grief--was my friend. Somehow the connection between her and meat was too strong. So I decided to skip the meat that night, and it stretched on until now. I never made a decision to stop eating meat, but at some point I realized I had stopped and didn't want to go back.

As for health problems, my only experiences were that vegetarianism stopped a few of mine. My memory cleared up, my eyesight got better. My migraines stopped, though I can't swear that was connected, because they had become less frequent by then. I had done enough research to know how to eat, so I never got weak or moody--quite the opposite.

Anyway, that's my story. Too long, I know. Anyone else?

[NNadir]

1. It sort of just happened.

I always felt morally conflicted about meat, especially on environmental grounds, but also because I know that I would be incapable of killing a mammal myself.

As I wrestled with these issues, I began living, effectively, with some people who did not eat meat. One person was a woman who was an outstanding vegetarian cook. After a few months, I noticed that I hadn't eaten meat in some time, so I decided never to eat it again.

It was just about 30 years ago.

I think if I had to eat meat again, I'd get pretty sick. It seems pretty unappealing to me.

[XemaSab]

2. I participated in the dissection of a mountain lion

It was really disgusting.

[Ravenseye]

3. Well, I figured if Hitler were a vegetarian...

...just kidding.

My wife was. We ate veggie at home. Our daughter was born and it seemed wrong to feed her any kind of meat. Now I see commercials on TV for hamburgers or something and it makes me physically nauseous.

I cheat occasionally in minor ways, but I'd say i'm 99% veggie now. Just happened organically. No pun intended.

[jobycom]

5. LOL! That one really gets some people upset, doesn't it?

I've heard of a book devoted entirely to debunking that Hitler was a vegetarian, which came down to basically the argument that he wasn't because he wasn't vegetarian for moral reasons. The book uses a reference from a hotel restaurant that Hitler liked a certain ham dish as proof that he ate ham there--not the restaurant was trying to promote its ham, of course.

Anyway, the debate amuses me.

[ThomCat]

4. I started refusing to eat meat when I was 4.

I gave up ham and lamb immediately. I gave up veal and most beef when I was in my early teens.

Shortly after I got to college and heard about the whole concept of a vegetarian I said, Damn, I'm there. I haven't looked back since.

[begin_within]

6. From reading "Prevention" magazine in the mid-1970s and from working

in a GNC vitamin store for the summer of 1975.

[LeftyMom]

7. I didn't struggle with the idea or come to it incrementaly

I guess that's a bit weird, a lot of people cut out one thing at a time and really struggle with the idea of going veg*n. I really didn't. There's almost no story to the story as a result, for which I apologize.

One day when my son was a baby, I was browsing while he was napping and I saw a website talking about how factory farmed animals are treated. By coincidence, I was eating some spaghetti with meat sauce at the time, and I just could not put another forkfull in my mouth. I followed a few related links about veg nutrition and I decided then and there that I wanted to go vegan, within minutes of first encountering the concept. But I wanted to do it right and make it stick and not struggle and give up, so what I decided to do was go ovo lacto vegetarian that very minute (and I did) and relearn how to cook without flesh and transition to a vegan diet over the next year. It took much less time than that, as I felt so much better and simply didn't want to eat animal reproductive tissues, so I didn't.

I'll have been vegan 4 years and veg almost 4 1/2 next month. What I'm more proud of is that my son doesn't remember eating any other way. Oh, and that he is enormous and strong and healthy and smart, which is better advocacy for a vegan diet than anything I'll ever say.

[jobycom]

15. My kids

I raised my oldest daughter without meat for the first two years. I do all the cooking, so it wasn't too difficult. But my spouse, who isn't vegetarian, and my MIL began slipping her meat, and by the time she was two she was living off chicken nuggets. She went from being an exceptionally bright and healthy child to having constant viruses and ear infections, and could barely hear much of the time. When I realized how bad her hearing was, I put her on a vegan diet for about six weeks. Her hearing came back, her ear infections went away. But my spouse wouldn't maintain it, and began slipping her chicken again, and her hearing got clogged up again until we finally had to put tubes in her ears. The infections didn't come back. She's 13 now, very overweight (though a lot of that was stress from our separation), and she still has ear issues at times. I can stop them by making her go vegan for a while, but she won't stick to it, and her mother considers it the height of dietary balance to have plenty of sugar-cereal food around the house, and no fruits or veggies (why buy fruits, she says, they just go bad because no one eats them).

So, congo-rats on raising your child with good eating habits. I'm still working on mine!

[LeftyMom]

21. I'm really lucky

LeftyKid's omniverous, drive-through eating father is perfectly happy to raise LK vegan, and after years of living and shopping with me he's a good label reader. He's not much of a cook, but LK is perfectly happy with a faux chicken patty, a veggie and a baked potato or something easy like that. I also make sure that he has fruit leather, non-gmo popcorn and other snacks in his bag when I send him over there. I don't know how we'd manage if his father was not cooperative about giving him a vegan diet, but his Dad is convinced of it's superiority, he's just (his words) too lazy to cook his own food. So I guess I'm pretty lucky about that.

He's kinda stuck with it anyhow though, LK yells and won't eat if anybody tries to feed him meat or cheese or some other obvious animal product. My family tries that from time to time, which is annoying but it makes him wary about food from people other than his parents, which is pretty useful in a vegan kid with extensive food allergies.

[jobycom]

22. You are lucky

My spouse is the type who will tell me she supports the idea then tell her mother I'm crazy and that my kid needs meat, then tell me her mother is crazy and forced her to eat meat while my spouse wasn't paying attention. Neither her mother nor I try to force anything. All this happened while my daughter was too young to decide for herself. My daughter tells me she wants to be vegetarian, but makes no effort towards it. At my place, she eats vegetarian. Though if we go out and she orders meat, I don't say anything.

[NMMNG]

8. I'd done some reading about ethical vegetarianism

And being an animal lover it made sense to me. I weaned myself off meat by first only eating it when I went out with my roomie and over to my friends house, then I went completely vegetarian. I've never looked back. I did get the protein/chicken/fish questions at first but I haven't lately. I didn't have any real problems adjusting since there are so many faux meats out there so I can indulge my cravings easily.

[AlienGirl]

9. Kind of always knew I would

I always thought of animals as part of my peer group when I was a kid, and I read some animal rights books when I was in fifth grade or so and it clicked. I continued eating meat till a little while after moving out of my mom's house, but then stopped. I have been vegetarian for over a decade now.

Tucker

[emmajane67]

10. When I was 11 I wanted to stop eating meat.

Used to get books from the library about the 'vegetarian child' etc. Dad said while I lived at home I would eat meat as it would be too hard to cater a full and correct vege diet for one child when everyone else ate meat.
Then when I was about 16 I got served veal once and couldn't eat it then I got sick for about 3 days and didn't eat and declared that the only way I would start eating again was if I didn't have to eat meat. Of course I got my way as a result. My last year at home was mainly lived on rice cakes, frozen vege macaroni cheese and salad sandwiches.
No one thought it would last, but I've not eaten meat since and have been dabbling in veganism for about 4 months now. Don't see myself ever eating meat again.
I am facing the prospect of living with meat eaters again after about 4 years with no meat in the house which will be interesting. Don't really have any problems being vege on a day to day basis. Only time I've suffered was backpacking in South America getting protein deficient and craving it and ending up with potassium deficiency which required hospital treatment.

[Dangerously Amused]

11. I did it the way most do, first quiting red meat and then white meat too.

My older sister went veg first. Then when I went away to college and became completely responsible for my own nutrition, I started reading up on it and was convinced it was the way to go not only from a health perspective but from principles of compassion and logic as well.

What compelled me most was the fact that I couldn't reconcile the meat I ate with the fact that people in other countries eat cats and dogs. How could I justify the flesh I ate while being repulsed by the flesh they ate? If eating meat was truly "okay," then why couldn't I eat a cat or dog without a second thought?

In my research I saw a sequence of photos of a dog who went from living to being killed to becoming a barbecue. They were grotesque and gruesome. I thought of my own sweet pets, how I would feel if anyone ever did that to them, and said Never. Again.

[jobycom]

17. Funny. I gave up chicken first.

We raised chickens when I was a kid, and seeing them hit by cars and on a couple of occassions eating the ones we had named (we were very poor a lot of the time) made me lose my stomach for them long before I gave up red meat.

I equated meat with pets, too. I still have a moment's blood boil when I hear someone claiming animals can't feel, or think, or that there's no moral issue in killing them. Or when they talk about "harvesting" them. I don't say anything, and I am non-judgemental on meat eating, but it does bother me. It's too obviously denial. Anyone with a pet or who has spent time around animals can't doubt that they have all the qaulities of life as humans, with a lower brain function on some levels. To claim otherwise strikes me as denial. Meat eaters always sound defensive, to me.

[Dangerously Amused]

19. "... lower brain function on some levels..."

And a higher brain function on some others, I would argue: incapable of materialism or cruelty, prejudice, judgement, betrayal, hypocrisy, dishonesty or revenge; generous to a fault with love, affection and forgiveness, and loyal until they moment they die. I suppose one could argue that these attributes are not necessarily the product of a higher brain function. However, one could not deny that they are the result of a higher intelligence.


:hi:

[jobycom]

20. Actually, I think they may be a result of not having "higher" brain functi

I think most humans if left to act on instinct alone would be more compassionate, loyal, etc, but we have a brain attribute that brings about scheming, conniving, desire to exceed all others, and all of that causes the pain in the world.

My belief on animals is that they are functionally in every way the same as humans, only with different brain functions. I don't believe in any soul other than the accumulation of physical stimuli (from the senses and from logical reasoning). Thus, humans are just animals with certain attributes that we consider higher life functions. Other species seem to have other attributes we don't have--hearing, site, some senses that we call intuition regarding earthquakes and such, some things we aren't aware of--and physical traits we don't have--we're slower, more vulnerable, more destructable than many other species.

Anyway, to me, humans are just another species. I don't value another species' life as highly as a human's, thus I don't feel shattered when I hit an animal on the roadway (though I have totaled a car to avoid hitting an animal, and I do feel a bit of grief when it happens), but I do believe that we have a moral responsibility towards other species. I don't hold it against meat eaters or hunters who eat the animals they kill, though I do feel my way is better--at least for me. I do feel that pleasure hunting is wrong, but since the hunters carry guns, I don't bring it up much to them.

And my views are still changing, sometimes getting tougher, sometimes more open-minded. :) It's a long life, I try to keep an open mind!

[Dangerously Amused]

23. I like your attitude.

:hi:



It strikes me that animals and particularly domestic animals possess and demonstrate most if not all of the positive attributes we claim to strive for in this lifetime yet frequently fail to attain, while manifesting none of the negative attributes we purport to distain, but engage in repeatedly.



Anyway, to me, humans are just another species.

Agreed.



...thus I don't feel shattered when I hit an animal on the roadway...

Oh god, I'll cry and fret over it for days!



...though I have totaled a car to avoid hitting an animal...

Well then, I adore you for that! :loveya:



I do feel that pleasure hunting is wrong...

I DETEST PLEASURE/TROPHY HUNTING!!!! :grr: :mad:



...but since the hunters carry guns, I don't bring it up much to them.

Ha ha; I don't go looking for the fight, but I'll get in their face if they try to defend it! :7



And my views are still changing, sometimes getting tougher, sometimes more open-minded. It's a long life, I try to keep an open mind!

Good attitude. I know I don't have all the answers, either.


:toast:

[Dangerously Amused]

24. I like your attitude.

:hi:



It strikes me that animals and particularly domestic animals possess and demonstrate most if not all of the positive attributes we claim to strive for in this lifetime yet frequently fail to attain, while manifesting none of the negative attributes we purport to distain, but engage in repeatedly.



Anyway, to me, humans are just another species.

Agreed.



...thus I don't feel shattered when I hit an animal on the roadway...

Oh god, I'll cry and fret over it for days!



...though I have totaled a car to avoid hitting an animal...

Well then, I adore you for that! :loveya:



I do feel that pleasure hunting is wrong...

I DETEST PLEASURE/TROPHY HUNTING!!!! :grr: :mad:



...but since the hunters carry guns, I don't bring it up much to them.

Ha ha; I don't go looking for the fight, but I'll get in their face if they try to defend it! :7



And my views are still changing, sometimes getting tougher, sometimes more open-minded. It's a long life, I try to keep an open mind!

Good attitude. I know I don't have all the answers, either.


:toast:

[Dangerously Amused]

25. I like your attitude.

:hi:



It strikes me that animals and particularly domestic animals possess and demonstrate most if not all of the positive attributes we claim to strive for in this lifetime yet frequently fail to attain, while manifesting none of the negative attributes we purport to distain, but engage in repeatedly.



Anyway, to me, humans are just another species.

Agreed.



...thus I don't feel shattered when I hit an animal on the roadway...

Oh god, I'll cry and fret over it for days!



...though I have totaled a car to avoid hitting an animal...

Well then, I adore you for that! :loveya:



I do feel that pleasure hunting is wrong...

I DETEST PLEASURE/TROPHY HUNTING!!!! :grr: :mad:



...but since the hunters carry guns, I don't bring it up much to them.

Ha ha; I don't go looking for the fight, but I'll get in their face if they try to defend it! :7



And my views are still changing, sometimes getting tougher, sometimes more open-minded. It's a long life, I try to keep an open mind!

Good attitude. I know I don't have all the answers, either.


:toast:

[jobycom]

28. Thanks.

I think I still remember every animal I've hit, and I grew up in the country, so it's not a small number. I feel worse hitting domestic animals. I've made some dramatic movements to avoid hitting animals, but once, because of the road condition as much as anything, I spun out of control to avoid a porcupine. I'd done the same type of swerve before and not wrecked, and if I thought I would have wrecked this time, I wouldn't have done it, not because of the car, but because of my kids in the back seat. One of the happiest moments of my life was when my six week old daughter started crying and my six year old daughter woke up asking what happened, and I knew they were both okay.

[Whoa_Nelly]

12. Meat doesn't sit well with me

Problems with digesting meat. Am mostly Ovo-Lacto-Vegetarian.

[LaurenG]

13. I was a vegetarian

in the 80's through the mid 90's because of similar reasons stated above. I developed a real problem with anemia which lasted for years. I was on iron shots for several months when the doctor told me he wouldn't give me anymore iron and that I'd better get back to meat. I ate it but only infrequently. I then ate only chicken and fish, then only occasional fish, then in February went to eating primarily a vegan diet.

I really don't like eggs and dairy really doesn't like me so unless it's an emergency (nothing else available) I stick to that. We had dinner at a friends house and she made a lovely cheese and spinach quiche, she was so excited that she'd prepared a vegetarian meal. I ate some of it and said nothing and felt grateful for her effort, friendship and love.

Leftymom, flvegan, robeson, Thomcat, tofunut and friesianrider helped me understand the myths of "not enough" protein in the diet (which was my concern) and getting enough iron. They gave me links and helped me in every way possible. (thank you - guys)

Now if we could only get flvegan to start an online personal training service.

[graywarrior]

14. Hated meat since I was a tyke.

Used to trade my steak with my brother for his spinach.

[ThomCat]

32. That's awesome! I have a twin who hates vegetables.

Our mom would end us splitting the food, giving him the meat and me the vegetables. She has always joked that she could cook any combination of things for dinner and between the two of us we'd eat it all, but without eating the same things.

[zanne]

16. I wanted to lower my cholesterol level.

It worked, by the way, by about 30 points!

[livetohike]

18. Started cooking vegetarian meals in 1970 in college partly for

economic reasons (beans, legumes, pasta and rice were cheap). I started practicing yoga in those years too and the my spiritual development added to the decision not to eat meat.

I had a cookbook my Uncle gave me titled The Art of Vegetarian Cooking and I started making meals from that book. A few years later, I bought Diet for a Small Planet and then Recipes for a Small Planet. I was learning the many health benefits of eating a vegetarian diet and resolved that this is what I was going to do. Thanks to many people who have put their recipes into books, my cooking has been greatly enhanced (especially the Moosewood Collective).

Today there are many products available in the local grocery stores for those who want to try a vegetarian diet. Back in the old days, I had to make my own yogurt and grow my own sprouts!! Now one can buy different types of tofu and and in the better markets, have a selection of sprouts. It's a world of difference from thirty years ago.

Edit: spelling

I will encourage others to try to eat less meat or go vegetarian, but I do not and will not preach. Becoming vegetarian is a personal choice and an evolving one.

When friends come to my house for dinner, they know they will have a delicious home cooked vegetarian meal.

[flvegan]

26. I started reading into buddhist teachings

and embracing a more mindful and positive lifestyle. I stopped eating read meat when I realized just how poorly the animals were treated. Then, come to find out, chickens are treated worse. Went vegetarian. Figured that there had to be abuse and inherent problems with the production of dairy and eggs (the worst, by far), and dumped those. It made it all the more easier as while researching these things, I found out how environmentally destructive raising animals for food is, and how unhealthy it is to consume it. I went vegetarian 7 years ago, I think, and for the last 6 of them, I've been vegan. I've never been healthier, stronger nor clear of mind.

I think I was coming to this lifestyle from the get go. I was always the kid rescuing the frog from the road, or saying hi to the dog first when I visited someone's house. I did my elementary school science fair project on vivisection and how ugly it is. I'm sure my teachers loved that.

[jobycom]

30. You sound like me, a bit

I was like that as a kid. Still am, greeting animals more than people, springing mouse traps at work, stopping to move turtles off the road. I know all my neighbors in my apartment building by their pets.

I studied a bit of Eastern philosophy, too, right around the time I started making the changes, so it played a role in my change.

I'm not vegan, though. I don't buy eggs, or milk, and very little cheese, but when I go out I still eat pizzas (though my favorite has soy cheese) and omelettes. I understand the arguments, and dislike the practices of large-scale diary and egg production, but it's not the same to me as killing an animal. More humane conditions can be created, for instance (free-range eggs, etc), and humane use of animals doesn't upset me the way it does some. Otherwise I couldn't keep a pet. It's just a different essence of problem than slaughtering for food. Maybe one day I'll see things differently, but that's where I am now.

[anarch]

27. gristle

[Beaverhausen]

29. For me it started with the news that the rainforests were being torn down

...for land to graze cattle- this was back in the mid-80s. And also right around then a close family member was found to have colon cancer. It runs fairly rampant in my family.

So I just said, OK, between the environmental destruction cause by the production of meat and the health issues, I will just give it up.

[jobycom]

31. I've been worrying about that health benefit lately.

Dennis Weaver and Fred Rogers both died of stomach cancer. Of course, we don't what they would have died of, or when, if they hadn't been vegetarian.

[Codeine]

33. Kinda corny

but I switched to vegetarianism after hearing "Meat is Murder" by The Smiths. Three weeks later I decided to try veganism and haven't gone back since. That was when I was 17; I'm 36 now and still healthy and active, so it seems to agree with me.

[6000eliot]

34. The thought of eating animal flesh has grossed me out

all my life, so I just refused to eat it. My parents gave me a hard time at first, but when they discovered I wasn't budging, they let me go.

[Hun Joro]

35. What a great thread.

I've been veg for almost 45 years, since I was somewhere between 3 and 4 years old. I had always felt an intense connection with animals, and I have a vague memory of my teenage uncle killing a pig. Shortly after that, my mother decided to give up meat, but she didn't know anythng about being a vegetarian and everyone told her that she and her kids would die without meat. She decided to take that chance for herself but not for me or my little brother. But as soon as I understood the connection between that pig and the pork chop on my plate there was no way I was eating any, and no one could make me. It wasn't until some time in the eighties that I began learning about the cruelty involved in dairy and egg production, and happily that was about the same time grocery stores began stocking tofu, without which I would have found the transition to veganism extremely difficult. My daughter, now 25, has been veg since birth, but has never made the progression to veganism.

[Robeson]

36. It was just a natural progression for me....

...I was obese as a child, and in my late teens, decided to get my diet on the right track. I still ate meat then, but as I refined my diet to make it better, I increasingly ate less meat. Also, as I matured, my appreciation for animals increased. Eventually, meat was no longer part of my life, and I don't miss it at all.

[Robeson]

37. Oh, I also want to say to all the veggies posting here....

...I didn't even know some of you didn't eat meat. It was great to see so many of my favorite posters say they were veggies. If you haven't visited, we have a great Group here on DU, and would love all of you to join in! Come over and visit what we lovingly call The Tofu Ghetto! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=231

[jobycom]

39. NIce to see who's here. I worry, though, whether our names

will now wind up on the gov's terrorist lists, along with all the dangerous vegans, environmentalists, and peace-lovers. :)

[tinfoil tiaras]

38. I was vegetarian for like 2 months

but the Country Club* fried chicken tempted me out of it...it looked too damn good!!!!

*normally, I would never be seen dead there, but it was after church and a friend invited us. But the food was really good.... :]

[flamingyouth]

40. Mostly for health reasons.

First I gave up beef and pork, which were making me physically ill. Then I discovered chicken and other poultry was doing the same. I was vegetarian through high school and college, then when I got married I pretty much gave it up and only recently returned to veg ways, and am very happy. My family and many of my friends are omnivores, though, and while the smell of meat kind of makes me queasy, I don't pass any judgment on them.

[Treclo]

41. Live and Let Live.

That's what it boils down to, for me. I worked at an 80% vegetarian restaurant, (City Spirit Cafe in Denver), in the 90's. My meat-eating ways were challenged and my animal-loving side was nurtured. During my "conversion", another veg-head told although she couldn't slaughter a cow to eat, she ate fish because she could catch a fish and be okay with that. (What I now would call those Presbyterians ;).) After a trip to Cape Cod and fresh lobster, I decided that I couldn't do that anymore, either.


In the past 10 years, I have discovered all the reasons it makes sense to eat a vegetarian diet- it's better for the environment, it's better for your health, it's usually cheaper- but it all comes back to the idea of making a choice to inflict the least harm possible in this world.

[Robeson]

42. Great post Treclo...

...I hope you come and visit us in the Group I referenced above....:thumbsup:

[Brazenly Liberal]

43. One day, out of nowhere, meat disgusted me.

At that time, my husband did all the cooking in our house and he was good at it.

One Sunday, about 12 years ago, he made pot roast, which was one of his specialties and something I was just as eager to have as I ever was. I filled my plate, grabbed a fork, and my brain took a ride on the No Particular Place To Go Train of Thought.

Within the space of about 20 seconds, I thought about how we gobble down some animals like pigs and cows, but are revolted at the very idea of eating others, like bugs and worms and people - and the cow I was about to eat looked pretty much like human meat would if it was on the plate. Suddenly it just made no sense to me that there are arbitrary lines drawn as to which animals are okay to eat and which are not.

At that point, I suppose I could have become a bug-munching cannibal, but I went the other way. My husband noticed I was sitting there with my fork in the air and asked if I needed something. I said, "No, I don't think I can eat this." "Is there something wrong with it?" he asked. "No, I just don't think I can eat meat. Ever. I think I just became a vegetarian." "Oh, well that's new. Want some more salad or something?"

And that was it. I never ate meat again. I didn't know any vegetarians and knew absolutely nothing about vegetarianism, but I ate a lot of salad and peanut butter sandwiches while I researched it. Today, my husband and I are both vegans. I started out with no real reason and now we are vegan for all the reasons. We learned about all the excellent health benefits - and have seen some amazing payoff in that area. Living in farm country, we saw for ourselves the compassionate reasons. And there's really no doubt about the environmental benefits.

One thing I might add in response to your story is that I don't know if you eat dairy, but we found the most significant health benefits came when we went all the way vegan. Cutting out the dairy and eggs really made a big difference.

[Ilsa]

44. I stopped eating meat. To see if I could. I discovered I had mroe energy

without it, and my weight is easier to maintain, and my cholesterol and other lipid profiles are better (they were never an issue, but they are enviable now)

I decided to try it and see if I liked it and I didn't put much pressure on myself at all.

I think I was tired of reading about BSE, e. coli, salmonella, etc.