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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:16 PM
Original message
Kids: smarter than we give them credit for
My son and I were watching a documentary on sharks (he's obsessed with sharks.) Some of it was pretty decent CGI of extinct species. My son points at the graphics and says "Hey look! Computer graphics sharks!"

1. I'm not sure where he picked up the phrase computer graphics or the ability to use it correctly.

2. If I'm remembering child development theory well, kids his age (he's five) aren't supposed to have a real good grasp of the division between what's real and what's imaginary.

3. I'm not sure #2 squares with a 5 year old being able to tell real footage from CGI at a glance.

4. I think this is where I may lose people: I think the difference is that I haven't filled his head with bullshit. He has more books about nature than fantasy stories. He's seen more of the Discovery Channel than Nickelodeon (and very little of either.) He had no idea who Santa was until this past year when he saw a few Christmas Special-type cartoons. Nobody ever tried to convince him Santa was real, and he learned about him on Dora's Christmas so he never thought he was, because he knows Dora and Boots are not real.

5. I think this common tenet of child development theory that small children can't distinguish fantasy from reality is culturally biased and exists because American children especially are culturally expected to be filled up with falsehood and fantasy. There is a cultural expectation that they can not or should not experience reality outside of the home until they are at least school age, and then eased into more realistic fiction and finally the world of fact gradually. (If you doubt this, loudly announce to your child in the toy section of a store at christmastime that Santa isn't real or that you don't have enough money for grossly expensive Toy X. At the very least somebody will give you the look if not outright tell you you're a bad parent simply for telling your child the truth.)

6. I think this is a disservice and a gross underestimate of our children's capabilities. I can't prove it but I suspect that deliberate handicapping of their ability to maintain the distinction between fantasy and reality harms that capability well into adulthood and possibly for life.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. I would have to agree.
I think we do a great disservice to children by filling their heads with fantasy and lies.

Now, how's this for stupidity of some American children?

My mom's a substitute teacher. This year she's a permanent sub for some 7th graders. They had to do a discussion on terrorism a couple days ago. One girl raises her hand and asks, "If I go to California, would I be considered a terrorist? I mean, like would I get arrested for terrorism, if I went to California or something?"

My mom said every kid in the room then turned to her at the same time and pretty much said, "THAT'S A TOURIST!" And then, the girl asked, "what's the difference between a tourist and a terrorist?"

:wtf:

God help our country.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Terrorists don't wear socks and sandals.
:evilgrin:

That's so crazy. :wow:
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Personally, I think they both deserve the death penalty in NYC.
:rofl:
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. WORD
christ, when my SO and I went to Manhattan (he lived in Queens) during the summer, we wanted to slaughter the fucking fat ass tourists :nuke:
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_testify_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. LOL
except to the Manhattanites, people from Queens are tourists. :)
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. yeah, but we still know the system
I mean, christ, the subway system isn't THAT hard-- read the goddamn map in FRONT OF YOU before asking me what train to get on for Yankee Stadium. And for fuck's sake, can you PLEASE waddle a little more fast than just cow-paced? My SO has a job to get to. :grr:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. pft...
:spray:
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TheMightyFavog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. In Wisconsin, Tourist and terrorist mean the same thing.
Especailly if said tourist is a FIB.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. kill em all!
the FIBs, that is
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Did she teach them they could drink in Hawai'i?
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I didn't ask, but probably not.
Our family policy is no drinking until 17.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Why couldn't a seven year old drink in Hawaii?
:shrug:

It's an island, after all...
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. ...
:spray:

God, if only my mom understood the internet enough to read the legacy on her on the great tubes of the internets.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I even told my Mom about it -- she thought it was funny
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. My point exactly!
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kids are smarter than given credit for...
My daughter is 3 1/2 and is pretty good at distinguishing between fantasy & reality. Certainly not perfect, but she's probably seen most of the Disney cartoons out there - Lion King, Cinderella, Little Mermaid, Mulan, etc. Heck, she's probably watched Mulan dozens of times. She knows they are "cartoons"... She also has her stuffed animals, but she knows they are "pretend" animals. She knows her daddy can't fly like Superman because that's only on TV.

And, we generally try to let my daughter down easy if we don't want to buy her something - we just tell her that it's not on sale, so it's too expensive.

Of course, who knows, I could be posting on here a year from now that my 4 1/2 year old is lost in her fantasy world.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. their brains are sponges - i met a 5 year old who could speak 4 languages
no need for the back story but i met the kid and his dad (who was in the army and spoke those 4 languages)

but this was a 5 year old kid who kid speak english, spanish, GAELIC and LATIN!

not completely fluent...but still
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. I have to disagree...
I'd hardly consider indulging a child's natural propensity for exploring their imagination as "filling their heads with bullshit."

1 + 2 + 3. Has he played a video game or seen a cartoon? Then he knows the difference between an artistic rendering and a a real image. What they mean when they say that they have a hard time with what's real and imaginary is conceptually not materially. A computer generated image IS real, just as a shark IS real. The tooth fairy is imaginary. But an artistic rendering of a tooth fairy is real. A five year old has trouble deducing for himself whether or not a concept, such as the tooth fairy, is in the realm of the possible, because he does not have enough experience with what is possible.

4. Yep, you lost me. I'll reiterate. One of the great things about being a child is that the fantasies we indulge at that age, that are summarily dismissed as bullshit when we are getting to that age where the realities of life conspire to hit us upside the head with a brick, are fun and imaginative. Fantasy is a part of youth. Imagination is a part of youth. Santa Claus gave us something to look forward to on Christmas. Does Christmas EVER take on that kind of magic ever again? Do we ever look at it with the kind of anticipation we did when we were that young once we find out that Santa isn't real?

5. Maybe the look is warranted... especially if <i>that</i> parent's child is within earshot and they are of a similar mindset as I am. The theory is correct. They can't. And I say, thank the maker they can't.

6. Allowing children to be children, to do what comes oh so naturally to them, to fantasize, to daydream, to believe in things like magic, and the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny is a disservice? You know, I was raised in the way I've described, and I can tell you that the ability to distinguish reality and fantasy is not impaired by having a healthy, normal, playful, whimsical childhood.

You know where I think things go off the rails? We force kids to adopt a harsh, glaring view of reality at a very young age, and sometimes I think that bypasses that part of their development where they have both reality and fantasy in their lives and ultimately learn to distinguish the two through experience and rational thought. Personally, I'd like to see imagination and fantasy indulged more than it is. With an atrophied imagination, where are all the new ideas going to come from? Without the ability to envision what isn't, always thinking in terms of what you know to be possible, who will invent? Who will research? Who will compose?

Meh. Just my opinion.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. My problem isn't with fantasy
It's with dictated fantasy. Kids are quite capable of fantasizing on thier own. However in our society we have a situation where parents and the media create fantasies for children and continually reinforce them, blurring the line between them and reality.

I don't think those imposed fantasies are vital to or even a healthy part of a child's development. Certainly they aren't a necessity for a happy childhood or an active fantasy life. My child enjoys Christmas as much as any other, though nobody's imposed a belief in Santa or The Baby Jesus or whatever, simply because he gets a day with family, a nice dinner and some presents. Hell, you could throw the same party to celebrate Tuesday and he's be enraptured, simply because family get togethers with presents and food are fun. He has a really active fantasy life. (I've posted examples before- he especially likes animals and will involve them in his imaginative play. He has a pair of toy plastic turtles he keeps as "pets" though he knows they aren't real, he has imaginary trips to rescue extinct animals and bring them to me for care, to the point where I have a whole school of imaginary Cephalespis, more dinosaurs than I know what to do with and my very own c. Megaladon.) By not imposing my own stories on him, and by exposing him to real and interesting things, he has a more varied fantasy life than the typical boy his age, as they often spend thier screenless hours reinacting thier favorite television program or video game.

As for the Santa thing, I have typical conventional parents who tried to get me to believe all of that. I remember not believing it as early as two, and my parents will back that up. I'd give them the arguments typical of much older children. (How does he get to all those houses in one night? You can't fit that many presents in the sleigh! Santa writes like Mom!) I never found myself liking Christmas any less than other children. After all, we adults enjoy Thanksgiving knowing that the story we grew up with is largely untrue. Holidays are fun.

As I said, my concern is not that children believe in unreal things, it's that parents encourage and even impose belief in unreal things. Doing so sets up the idea that questioning is bad, that authority figures are to be believed even they can not be trusted with the truth and even when they defy sense. Many children break free of that, but do the extra years in that mode prevent thier bullshit detectors from reaching thier full potential? Perhaps.

My argument is not for supression of imagination, but for unchaining it. I order to dream, imagine and innovate most fully, our children need to be conversant in both the language of fantasy and that of reality, and able to switch between them at a moment's notice. When we raise children in a coccoon of imposed whimsy, we limit thier ability to develop thier own dreams and to connect them to thier reality in thier own way.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Fair enough, but at the risk of sounding conventional...
My conjecture is as follows, what does a child know of his or her own good? And for that matter, what do you? Parenting, through the thousands of generations that our species has been on this earth, has always been a source of consternation because it has been largely trial and error. It would be much simpler if we could simply boil down the needs of a child to a series of scientific texts and raw theorems. It would be nice if we could view children as a collective series of needs such that we could provide for them on schedule and with the best possible end.

Of course, there's the rub. What goes on in a child's mind when they can not yet fully express it?

What does child development research do except reinforce the idea that while the basic material needs of a child are the same, their intellectual capacities, social needs and aptitudes, etc. are widely different? Child rearing isn't a science, not because we cannot come up with experiments and test the validity of the results, but because no experiment is repeatable from child to child.

The fact is that the only real "text" on the rearing of children is thousands of generations of empirical evidence of what works best, garnered through trial and error, and the passing on of that information from one generation to another. Nevermind that the styles of child rearing vary based upon temporal and cultural considerations, and that all have about the same rate of success (middling to good).

But who is to say that instilling a child with a belief for things that cannot possibly be, allowing them to proceed from a point of happy delusion and find their own way to stark reality, is inherently more or less vital to the proper development of a child than never exposing that path to them in the first place? Who is to say that the Santa Claus belief wouldn't make him love Christmas more than he does? It's a baseless conjecture. Having no real evidence to support the idea since children are not the same, and not being able to run the experiment twice on the same child to see which end result is 'better', makes it very difficult for me to see anything but the base reasoning you propose.

Your reasoning, however, is interesting, and I applaud you for bringing your own beakers and test tubes to the ongoing parenting experiment. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as you understand and accept that your child will bear the weight of your decisions and instruction or absence thereof, and allow that thought to guide your choices. I have no difficulty believing you do, since this is basically the definition of good parenting, and you seem quite assiduous in your pursuit of that ideal.

Just a few final thoughts:

As I said, my concern is not that children believe in unreal things, it's that parents encourage and even impose belief in unreal things. Doing so sets up the idea that questioning is bad, that authority figures are to be believed even they can not be trusted with the truth and even when they defy sense. Many children break free of that, but do the extra years in that mode prevent thier bullshit detectors from reaching thier full potential? Perhaps.

If I haven't made it clear by now, let me just sum up. There are almost as many styles of child-rearing as their are cultures, subcultures, or even families. One is not inherently better or worse than another, not because of the end result, but we have to agree what 'better' means first. I wouldn't concern yourself with the suspected errors of "conventional" parents, because you'll have to define for me first what, if we can't agree with what 'better' means, how can we agree on which 'errors' lead to a 'worse' result?

Secondly, my counterexample to the bullshit detector's out of tune suggestion.

There are people in this world who never believed in Santa Claus or a tooth fairy or an Easter bunny, or any other fantastical trapping of youthful culture myth, but believe in a God. Why is this? Why can people outgrow Santa, but fall "victim" to God?

My guess is quite simply, is that if there is one truth to our species, we seem to have a desperate need to believe in something, whether it be magic, or a heavenly father figure, or the supernatural, or psychic abilities, miracles, angels, the occult, or even a simple belief that tomorrow just might be a better day than today. It gives us hope, wonder, and has the ability to shape purpose. To me, God is as ludicrously unbelievable as Santa Claus, yet many people all over the world have a faith that cannot be denied. I wouldn't say that they're bullshit detectors are faulty, I'd simply say that they need their beliefs, as irrational and unprovable as they may be.

I know plenty of people who are of like mind who still buy lottery tickets, and the lottery is probably one of the biggest piles of bullshit ever whiffed. And after they buy the tickets, they fantasize about all the things they'll do with the money once they win. They're not delusional. They're just indulging a fantasy that has a 1 in (some number with more commas and zeros that you care to write down) chance of materializing as reality.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Absorbent Mind...
http://www.absorbent-mind.com short of genetic short falls which sadly do occur, or having the info pushed or not fostered within them, children are born with everything they need to understanding what is before them, including vast tracts of info they carried along from where they just came (though that my speak to matters of faith & origin); they, if not all of us, begin to un-learn it unless we are stimulated, or challenged in creative ways i.e.

hubby's 1st grandson was hacking websites @ 4yrs of age...but his dad is a software programmer :shrug:
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. I think it depends on the child...and the environment. I filled my
daughter's head with all kinds of bullshit...but, as a single mom, she was also out in the Real World with me...paying bills, dealing with people, and then coming home to watch Barney. She went for a half year thinking that Barney would come visit her for a chat if she was naughty(I know...shame on me). She also started spelling four letter words (like stop and park...not the nasty ones) at 3 and a half and was reading at 4. My parents treated her like a parlor trick. But, she also watched cartoons, loved having stories of the fantasy nature read to her and had a fantastic imagination. As a 16 year old Junior in high school she is a National Spelling Bee past participant, Student Council VP, Straight A student taking Calculus, AP US History, AP Biology and AP French. I really think, in the end, it depends upon the child. :hi:
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skygazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. Interesting discussion
I think the biggest issue with encouraging kids thought AND imagination is not treating them like idiots. I think it's less about filling their heads with "bullshit" and more about respecting the intelligence and potential that they have.

For instance, when my kids were growing up, I don't think I ever uttered the words, "You're too young to understand that." In my point of view, if a kid is old enough to come up with a question, they're old enough to understand an answer. Not necessarily a detailed, technical answer but an answer tailored to their understanding of the question. So when my kids asked me how the baby got into my belly when I was pregnant with my son, I told them.

But I also see no harm in indulging fantasies such as Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. My daughter to this day has a note from the tooth fairy written on a tiny scrap of paper in ornate printing - sort of an IOU because I'd forgotten to get some cash to put under her pillow! She loved it and was enchanted that the tooth fairy wrote her a note - it didn't warp her to find out that it was me - in fact, I think that made the whole thing more fun for her later.

I think it's about balance and respect. I despise people who talk to their kids in baby talk all the time and treat them like they have no brain whatsoever. My kids will tell you that I was a fun mother but I never talked down to them.
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huskerlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. I agree with 99% of what you said...
except I don't think the fantasy/reality thing is in any way limited to American kids. Children in Europe are exposed to the same types of TV shows and also are taught to believe in something akin to Santa (ex: Sinterklaas in Belgium/Netherlands).

It could very possibly be a western civilization phenomenon though.
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