If you could go back and live in a Hunter-Gatherer society, would you?

[Lethe]

i guess this kind of a strange question, but i think about this every now and then.

-no offices, traffic, deadlines, corporate culture etc
-work only a couple days a week (hunting)
-no constant stress, except weather and when something is about to eat you
-dancing around campfires encouraged, preferably scantily clad
-strong family, tribal connections + tribal religion usually connected to nature
-no massive wars in foreign lands, just skirmishes for resources
-food totally natural and healthy
-no pollution

[crim son]

1. It might work for the male of the species.

As a female, I'm not so sure it would be an improvement over the world I live in today.

[Lethe]

3. the Iroquois were matriarchal

not sure if they are considered "hunter-gatherer"

[crim son]

4. Aren't the Iroquois also the bunch who became

legendary for their practice of scalping their dead enemies? Those are my kinda peeps!

[William Bloode]

23. They did do it, but it was European inspired.

The white would pay for the scalps of their enemies, white and native. It was proof of performance. Kinda like other nations in the past would collect heads, or hands to show they had fought and killed. In feudal Japan lords would only pay Samurai that presented them with a severed head, the ancient Egyptians required a hand.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. The Brits gave them that idea.

Or maybe it was the French. Anyhow, scalping is European in origin. :D

[pokerfan]

37. Scalping

In Europe it does date back to ninth century but...

"According to ethnohistorian James Axtell, there is abundant evidence that the Native American practice of scalping existed long before Europeans arrived."

"It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war."

There are links and sources on wiki.

[Bassic]

48. The Iroquois themselves were

enemies of the French, so I doubt it comes from them. But as far as european inspired atrocities againts Indians go, who's counting?

[Broken_Hero]

7. quite a few

American Indian tribes are "matriachal"....

[William Bloode]

22. I'm part Cherokee, they were matriarchal.

The women owned everything, house and all it's goods. Controlled most resources, and could set a man right out and choose another. The father had no real responsibility for the children either. The uncle raised the children(wifes brother). Many tribes were matriarchal because it was believed women managed the resources better than the males.

[petronius]

2. No thanks - gorging myself on charred mammoth every few days

isn't my idea of haute cuisine. And if I clubbed over the head in one of those little skirmishes, I'd want to have first rate emergency room just a short ambulance ride away...

I spend a couple of weeks backpacking every year, which involves much of what you describe, but that would become a lot less fun if I didn't have a cozy bed and a hot shower waiting my return.

[crim son]

6. petronius, have you ever had bbq'ed mammoth?

I hear it's to die for... :rofl:

[Lethe]

8. good one

especially since you might actually die trying to get it.

:P

[petronius]

9. The closest I've come was buffalo, and it was already on the plate

and covered in gravy by the time it got to me. If all the caveman movies are correct, a mammoth meal is a bit tougher to get than just ordering from the menu - apparently the tribe's 'clumsy guy' has to get trampled before dinner is ready... :)

[crim son]

10. Plus, they had no MSG in those days.

I'm sure there's a way to tenderize a nice Mammoth Loin. Yes?

[petronius]

11. My guess is that 'whack it with a stick' was pretty much the solution

to every little problem back in those days, including meat tenderizing. (After all, we still think a good smack is a cure-all for malfunctioning TVs, etc; we must have learned it somewhere.)

[Lethe]

12. na they knew every use for every thing

they could have used a plant like ginger to tenderize flesh

remember, these guys werent neanderthals, they were exactly like you and me, except feral from birth.

[petronius]

14. That's what I meant - they were exactly like me

And I don't use no freakin' ginger to tenderize stuff, I whack it with a stick! ;)

(Seriously, you're correct - archaeological evidence, as well as Geico, has shown that our prehistoric ancestors as well as modern hunter-gatherers were/are much more sophisticated than the cartoon image we all grew up with.)

[AngryAmish]

50. Not exqactly just like you and me

There is pretty good evidence that we have continued to evolve since widespread H/G societies. Most folks have thinner skulls and are less violent to other people. Many people have lactose-tolerance into adulthood. Sickle-cell strains help guard against malaria. Many other adaptations that I can't remember right now.

[Broken_Hero]

5. questions like this

always remind me of the Beach, Little House on the Prarie and the Village movie...

At first glance, it does seem appealing...but I sure would miss my internet(s)....:) Oh, and my comics...and tv...but going out for weekend/week camping trips is great...but like the above poster mentioned...its a lot easier to deal with, when you know you got a nice hot shower waiting for you when you get home...plus having AC during the summer, is a bonus!...:)

[Lethe]

13. i agree with you

but if you gave me a choice of being chained to a computer for 10-12 hours a day

or

living in the wild



i would chose the wild

[Jamastiene]

30. Not to mention reliable heat in the winter as well.

Standing by a campfire doesn't cut it for keeping warm, IMHO. I've tried that. Either my rear end was cold, or my front half was cold, depending on which way I stood. And if I turned sideways, one half of my body in the other direction would be cold. It just didn't cut it. I like my heating unit. I'll stay nice and warm indoors instead. :D

[pokerfan]

15. Reminds me of an old joke

The old Cherokee chief sat in his reservation hut, smoking the ceremonial pipe, eyeing the two US government officials sent to interview him.

"Chief Two Eagles," one official began, "You have observed the white man for many generations, you have seen his wars and his products, you have seen all his progress, and all his problems." The chief nodded.

The official continued,"Considering recent events, in your opinion, where has the white man gone wrong?"

The chief stared at the government officials for over a minute, and then calmly replied."When white man found the land, Indians were running it. No taxes. No debt. Plenty buffalo. Plenty beaver. Women did the work. Medicine man free. Indian men hunted and fished all the time."

The chief smiled, and added quietly, "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."

------------------------------------------

It's easy to romanticise stone age living, but it was fairly brutal for us hairless apes. It was labor intensive and cruel. And pretty much any serious injury or infection meant your life.

And face it, without an optometrist, most of us would be screwed.

[Lethe]

16. hah i like!

well it really depends on the group your are referring to, but there is evidence that many hunter-gatherer groups lived relatively work-free, chronic disease-free lives into old age. (average male hunted only a couple days a week)

but yeah it is a trade off.....they couldnt deal with serious injuries or infections, but they had very small incidence of chronic diseases like diabetes, arthritis, and heart disease

they had no need of optometrists because they all had close to perfect vision, except in old age. Bad eyesight in young age is a disease of civilization.

[Jamastiene]

34. Wow, if it was so great, I wonder why they evolved and changed

from that lifestyle? I mean everyone and everything was perfect? Hopefully, I can build that time machine and grant you your wish. I'm not knocking you for your dream, mind you. I have dreams myself, none of which involve doing without heat and a soft bed. I just think the idea of everything being perfect is sort of glossy compared to reality.

[Bucky]

43. "But Daddy, the Joneses have bronze tools. How come we can't have bronze tools?"

The reason people developed more advanced social was that if they didn't, they'd be killed of or enslaved by those who did.

[XemaSab]

17. I think being a hunter-gatherer

would be a bad deal all around for most people.

No modern health care would be a big one. Basic shit like an ear infection, childbirth, a cavity, or any injury could mean dying. Also no modern birth control. The amount of physical labor also meant BAD arthritis by the time you were 35 or so with no modern painkillers.

Hunting and gathering wouldn't be bad when times were good, but mortality in most native tribes was very high. You'd probably run the risk of starvation at least every few years.

The women did a huge amount of labor. Yeah, the male fantasy involves hunting a few days a week, but the reality is much more intensive than that.

Most of the food would be really shitty. The Indians in California ate a lot of acorns. Acorns taste shitty.

I think you'd freeze your ass off in winter, and bake all summer.

No literacy. Screw that.

Ditto for never going more than about 30 miles from where you were born.

You'd probably be really stuck as far as potential mates. Your buck-toothed cousin? The one girl with the cross eyes? Your grandpa's friend? That's what you'd be rockin'.

I'm all about modern society. I think modern society's got it going on.

[Lethe]

18. it must have worked for a while

because thats what we evolved to be

yes they didnt have modern medical care, but then again, they didnt have chronic disease (arthritis). Also, many groups did not have extensive physical labor, only a few days a week.

i'm not basing the male hunting time on fantasy, thats what i learned in anthropology. (couple days a week)

The food is shitty? well i think thats all about perspective.

[XemaSab]

19. Most of what I've heard about hunter-gatherers

indicates that most of them died LONG before arthritis could really get going.

Kennewick Man spent his 40 years or so kneeling in a canoe, and had extensive arthritis in his knees. He also was wounded by a spear in the hip that had healed, he had been bashed on the head many years before death, he had numerous healed cracked ribs, and he had a healed broken arm. Almost all the enamel was worn off his teeth. Judging from the remaining tooth enamel, he was malnourished twice between the ages of five and seven. He had bone anomalies usually found in modern weight lifters.

This dude obviously worked really hard and had a rough life.

[Nikia]

24. Actually, there was quite a bit of arthritis

Especially in some groups for anyone who reached middle age or older.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. And I recall reading about the Mbuti (Pygmies)

Their life sounds idyllic on the surface--they really are gentle and peaceful--but forty is considered "old."

[YDogg]

20. According to our dog, I AM a hunter-gatherer.

What now?

:-)

[YankeyMCC]

21. Also

lots of violence
lots of hungry times
no modern medicine

It's always a bad sign when you look backwards for a better time. Look to the past to learn but always move forward. There might be a kind of 'neo-hunter-gather' society that could be created that include some of the positives you list without rejecting positive modern advances. Something like the roaming bands depicted in Kim Stanley Robinson's Green and Blue Mars novels (part of the Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy)

Now that is a way of living I could embrace. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. No, my whole life would be one long camping trip, and I hate camping

Besides, there would be nothing to read.

[NuttyFluffers]

39. yup. not a happy camper here either. and i'd miss my iPod.

nature is truly beautiful though... under glass while in the comfort of a climate controlled room with easily accessible amenities.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I can take about half a day in the wilderness

Then I start missing my indoor plumbing, books, and other reasons not to be a hunter-gatherer.

[raccoon]

54. There were storytellers, no doubt.

But I would miss reading too.

[The2ndWheel]

27. The only thing civilization has done

is give us the same problems we had back then, only on an ever increasing scale.

http://vtcommons.org/node/431

[Lethe]

46. wow interesting article - quote about possessions

"Gone too the life of limited possessions imposed on mobile hunting societies, for now with a sedentary population, one could have all the possessions one could accumulate, from goats to grindstones and animals to acres, and the more the better."

I never thought about it before....i guess they had simple necklaces and clothing, but definitely no drooling over a neighbor's big screen TV.

It must have been a completely different mindset.

[Nikia]

28. This is how we evolved and the world we are psychologically wired for

So it does appeal to many of us to some extent.
On the otherhand, war, disease, famine were very real stresses of life then that cut the lives short of many.
There are some communes that do focus on substainable community living. Sometimes, I think that it would be nice to join one.

[Jamastiene]

29. Hell no!

I like living in a house and having a nice soft bed to sleep on. Also, I like what few rights women are supposed to have nowadays (even though they aren't enforced often enough.) Another way to look at your question for me would be to say, if I had to go back to that, I'd just kill myself and get it over with. In other words, hell no, I don't want to go to that time. Well, you asked. :shrug:

[Shell Beau]

31. Knowing how easy life could be?

I don't know!! The world was certainly better off, but the human lifespan was shorter. Although, probably more worth while! :shrug:

[mike_c]

32. at 51 years old, with nearsightedness and early arthritis...?

Might as well commit suicide.

[LSK]

33. no, getting sick would really suck

[Deja Q]

35. Only if I could go back in time...

as has been said, arthritis, et al...

otherwise, the pros outweigh the cons.

[Redstone]

36. Always the potential for starvation and no medicine. No, thank you.

Redstone

[greendog]

38. Sure, as long as I could...

...do my hunting/gathering at Costco.

I've lived in a little cabin without electricity. I've hand pumped my water from an outside well at 20 below zero. I've heated with wood.

All good.....but 40 miles down a rough gravel road was a nice big modern grocery store. And THAT I wouldn't want to do without.

[Random_Australian]

42. Food healthy? My goodness gracious!

What about those, uh, "famine" things they used to get?

[xchrom]

44. i believe that it was sociologists{?} in the fifties who discovered

that the happiest people on earth were the sung people of the kalahari.

pretty much the same people from whom we are all descended.

yes -- we died younger -- but we were happier, fitter, healthier etc than we are today.

as far as life being hard -- well that all depends on perception.

i'm not wild about giving up shopping for cole-haan shoes BUT i'm guessing a little fancy quill work could persuade a talented sandal maker to make me something Fabulous.

[AngryAmish]

51. ever wonder why the !Kung (sung) people were living in the desert?

The other people (other native tribes) there couldn't stand them. People have not been able to stand neolithic/hunter-gathers every time they have been in contact with more civilized peoples. Mostly because neolithic/hunter-gatherers are extremely violent. Violence is an adaptive trait in that sort of society and is maladapted in more densely populated areas.

[xchrom]

55. that's a generalization not applicable to the sung people.

while it is true of some of the amazonian tribes for example -- that's not the case with the sung -- innuit -- or many others.

the people of the kalahari -- sung and those related to them were routinely enslaved by nations surrounding them.
they were/are small in stature -- not given to offending -- etc.

[Nikia]

60. Because they were annihilated by the more warlike tribes in better lands

We must face the fact that whenever an ethnic group covers large areas of desirable territory, it is because they exterminated or assimilated weaker peoples. Hunting gathering supports fewer people in a given territory so wars over resources are common.

[AngryAmish]

63. This ignores the genetic evidence, and the archeological evidence

Neolithic folks have a much higher injury and homocide rate. This is clear from the evidence. Throughout the world.

[Nikia]

65. The !Kung people once inhabited a much bigger part of South Africa

They were driven off their land and/or killed by Bantu speaking people who made use of agriculture and technology.
I don't think that we should be suprised by this because it also happened much closer to home when the Europeans crossed the ocean, had agriculture and technology, and drove the hunter-gatherers off their land/and or killed them. Do you wonder why the most populous Native American tribe lives in the desert just like the !Kung?
This sort of thing also happened in other parts of the World in the past and present amongst people of all races.
Neolithic folks concentrated on the survival of themselves and their group. Yes, they often did not think of other groups as human beings. Groups that gained agriculture and technology weren't much better though and often didn't hesitate to extrminate the weaker peoples if they had access to needed resources.

[Hugin]

45. Ah, to have the 'problems' of a Silverback...

Question of the day: "How high up on the mountain to get the salad for today?"

[nickinSTL]

47. no, thanks...

I like my comfy chair and my comfy bed...and AC in the summer, heat in the winter...

And I don't know if I could kill animals, even for food.

[AngryAmish]

49. I'm 38 so I'd be dead soon.

No thanks, I like it just fine now.

[wildhorses]

52. yes.

i was born at least 100 years too late.

[raccoon]

53. Sounds appealing in many ways, but then, there's-

No dentists (or novocaine)

Nobody to perform an appendectomy

No eyeglasses, contacs

And probably few of them live to be elderly.

[bluedigger]

56. Once upon a time, perhaps,

but, as others have noted, age and eyesight conspire against me. Hunter-gatherer societies generally are very conservative as well. Innovation can have great pay-offs but the risks involved can lead to total catastrophe too. "What kept grampa alive will keep me alive!"

Then again, everytime I'm stuck in line at the checkout waiting for the miracles of technology to speed me on my way, the temptation to idyllicize a simpler lifestyle and join the Kalahari in the bush does appeal...

[One_Life_To_Give]

57. Thats the holywood version

How about spending every daylight hour trying to find something to eat.
And spending every dark hour huddled around a fire for protection.
I think your idea of work is very different from what our ancestors had to do daily even 100 years ago.

[deucemagnet]

58. It depends.

Could I get high-speed, or just dial-up?

[BarenakedLady]

59. Only if I get to be an Amazon Princess Warrior

:evilgrin:

[XemaSab]

61. I had a short talk with an archaologist

He said it makes a HUGE difference where one is doing the hunting and gathering. Some natives has it pretty cushy and others had it rough.

He also said that every hunter/gatherer was part of a social structure and a trading network, and that many hunter/gatherers extensively modified their environments to manipulate food resources.

[jpgray]

62. Fuck no. Lower highs and higher lows, yeah

But not worth it.

[u4ic]

64. No,

'simplifying' life and going back to a primitive way of living are two totally different things. As complex as life often seems, we really do have much that simplify it. Shelter. Running water. Food aplenty. Merchants. Transportation. Machines. Media.

I doubt most of us could go back to that - never mind the constant hardship and manual labour, with the threat of dying at every turn.

Socially, it would mean: stricly defined roles - your mistake could lead to the demise of your tribe/band. You would have little room for individuality, other than working at what you do best (and that doesn't necessarily mean what you like doing best).

Think of Maslow's hierachy of needs. We would be back to strictly existing, not 'living'. Most of us strive for some sort of self esteem or self actualization - those would go out the window when your life becomes just about meeting your very basic needs for food and shelter. No hobbies, time to find yourself, travel the world, grow spiritually and intellectually, etc.


-work only a couple days a week?
Ha! There would be no grocery stores or refrigerators, so searching for food would be a constant, as would stress. A drought or other force of nature could make food scarce. Remember seasons? Summer/early fall is great, there would most likely be lots of food, but what about winter?

Everything you have right now was made by someone else. Think of even the very basics - and that you would either need to make it, somehow, or do without.


-no constant stress, except weather and when something is about to eat you
Just because there's no deadlines or traffic, that life may be lived at a slower pace, doesn't mean a lack of stress - if your basic needs aren't met, you perish. Something we don't understand in our culture, where food is not only plenty, but available if need be (ie food banks - and I mean in general, of course there are many in our society who don't have enough to eat).

Weather...where are you going to get umbrellas? Sun block? Fans to cool down? Heaters to warm up? Appropriate clothing and shelter for all seasons and weather conditions?

What about health care? While all would have some form of natural medicine, it may not always be effective, especially in emergencies.

Water? Clothing? Hygiene? Transportation? (walking) Your tribe would most likely be on the move, rarely staying in any location for an extended period of time. You would only take with you what you absolutely needed, hence very little. Think moving is tough? Try doing it on a regular basis!


-food totally naturally and healthy? And potentially fatal if you misidentify. You'd also be eating whatever is edible, many tribes eat insects and grasses/roots, for example. Are you willing to do that?


-strong family, tribal connections + tribal religion usually connected to nature See paragraph above - with stricly defined roles. No "I need some time by myself". Strict roles and rules would be needed to ensure the survival of the tribe. You would also become a parent very young - you'd barely have any sort of a childhood at all. And if you didn't like your family, it's not as if you could move away, or 'divorce' them.

Your knowledge would be limited to what you learn from your tribe, and from basic experience. It would also encompass much of what you learn from your tribal religion.

Tribal 'religion' may not be about growing spiritually as much as reverence to an outside god or force who could take your life at any moment, and to placate and honour them.


-dancing around campfires encouraged, preferably scantily clad Lol. Art and dance are often integral to many tribes; however, having after seen many scantily clad people in your tribe, it wouldn't be as titillating as it is in our repressed society.


-no massive wars in foreign lands, just skirmishes for resources Ummm...with your very life on the line, do you think you'll just have 'skirmishes'? A little boxing match, perhaps? Or feigning and deking with other tribes when starvation is always around the corner?

Skirmishes are for sports when only integrity is on the line, not survival.


An interesting question, however! :hi:

[Redneck Socialist]

66. Sure

Sounds good, except for not being able to correct vision problems. Being super near sighted would mean I'd have to get pretty freakin' close to the mammoth before chucking the spear. I expect I'd have a pretty short life expectancy.

So good in theory, not so good in practice.