My dog's cruciate ligament is ruptured...... I can't decide what to do.

[Joanne98]

I found this out about a month ago. The vet said he needed surgery. I took him to get a second opinion and the new vet said both legs were injured. I got a new new vet I'm trying to call right now but I think I'm going to have to put him to sleep. It's killing me. He's a big dog part Rott and Husky (100 pounds) His name is Pancho.
He's only three years old. I've been reading on the internet some people are saying vets are making money on this. Does anybody have any experience with this. I live with my sister and we both work. Pancho's home alone. I don't want to put him in a cage. He isn't getting better but he isn't getting worse. I wish I could find a way to stabilize his leg without spending 500.00 for a brace.

[BarenakedLady]

1. I have no advice

But I hope you don't have to make that decision of putting him to sleep. If you do, I'm so sorry. :hug:

I hope the new vet has some better options for you.

[NewWaveChick1981]

2. Our dog Diana (RIP) had this problem with both of her hind legs.

:( She was a lab/Border Collie mix, and she weighed about 80 lbs. Our vet, whom I trust implicitly, diagnosed the first leg when she was about four years old. (We got her from the shelter when she was about a year old.) It was a rough recovery, but she made it. He charged us $500 for the surgery, which was half of what other vets wanted for it. Two years later, the other leg had the same problem, and we had the surgery done then too. She was a very, very active dog and was a compulsive ball-chaser, and all of the twists and turns in her activity were mostly to blame. I saw the x-rays both times, and he was right. If the surgery is successful, the dog will have a good quality of life. She died when she was 9 (but it was from cancer and not related to her leg problems).

It's your decision, but I hope this information helps you. :hug: I know it's not an easy choice.

[flvegan]

3. Okay, hold on...

"both legs were injured" how? A ruptured cruciate isn't such a terrible injury that he needs to be put to sleep. Were xrays done?

If you do the surgery, crate rest is only for a short time, and it's not all that bad for him. If stabilizing the leg is the main concern right now, then just wrap it tightly.

If you do have/get xrays and want a free 3rd opinion, I'll have our specialist look at them if you want to fwd them or host them on Photobucket.

[Joanne98]

6. The injury happened about 9 months ago. I remember when he

was limping but he got better fast and i had no idea it was serious. He re-injured it about a month ago and that's when we found out. I guess he was favoring the injured leg all that time and it put stress on his good leg. I feel so guilty...Now his good leg is "slipping" too. I forgot what they call it.

[flvegan]

11. That's one reason why I ask about the xrays.

They give a better idea about what's going on in there, rather than a vet feeling around and opting to open the leg up to get a better take on it. My offer stands. I can get you a 3rd veterinary opinion (again, for free) if you do have xrays. In the meantime, you can try wrapping both legs to keep the joints a little more stable.

Lastly, is there swelling or is the dog painful when touched?

[Joanne98]

18. It doesn't really look swollen to me but he doesn't like me touching

it. My sister saz she thinks his hipbones look wierd. What should I wrap the joints in? that stuff for people sprains?

[cwydro]

15. What a generous offer.

That is really nice of you.

[Joanne98]

30. That was nice....

[Joanne98]

17. I have x-rays. Can you PM me.

I've have been asking about wrapping it but nobody really says anything. I really know nothing about injuries like this. I guess it's like a sports injury.

[xchrom]

4. the injury can be fixed -- please don't put your dog down

for that.

it might be expenseive -- but he's a whole little being -- with his life in your hands.

go the extra distance -- give him every chance you can.

[warrior1]

5. Have you thought about

doggy wheelchair? For extremely crippled dogs and cats...

http://www.doggon.com/products.html

I had got the same news about my pup, but after the another viewing of the xray they backed off it. So I was thinking of getting this.

I've put my dog on a diet and she on metacam and tramdal because she still has bad hips.

Good luck

[warrior1]

8. Here's a brace for dogs too

This injury takes a long time to heal. Meds will help with the swelling which is what is probably going on. But, I'm not vet, so I could only be guessing.

[Joanne98]

28. I saw those....What kind of meds for the swelling?

[warrior1]

31. The vet said she'll be on them for life

metacam.

She had to have tests before hand to make sure her liver and kidney's were performing well.

A few weeks ago, she was limping pretty bad. Sara wouldn't but any weight on her back leg. Today, she's been chasing squirrels all day. What a difference

[Joanne98]

33. Is your dog in a wheelchair?

[warrior1]

34. No

but it was an option because the cost of the surgery was going to be $4,000. Sara is 11 so I wasn't sure if I could afford the cost.

[warrior1]

35. I also think

that the meds take a while to start working. Losing the extra weight a good start. Keeping her out of the cold and covering her up at night and giving her kisses I think also helps!!!

[mzteris]

self delete. dupe. n/t

[mzteris]

7. I'd exhaust all other possibilities

before the final option.

It's hard to go through the operation/recovery, but it's worth it. (My pup had severe hip dysplasia.)

Here are some links some Du'ers gave me for possible help in financing surgery. We didn't apply for it as we could swing it - but if you really need it, go for it.

http://www.thepetfund.com /

http://www.aahahelpingpets.org/root /

If you are in one of the 5 Boroughs of NYC: http://www.nysave.org/savefaq.html


http://www.uan.org/lifeline/index.html

[China_cat]

36. Add IMOM to that list

http://www.imom.org/

[Joanne98]

41. Thanx

[Joanne98]

47. Medvets in Ohio has a foundation... I read the website....

and it said your vet had to apply for you. My sister asked him and he didn't even know it existed. I have to wonder about this.

[Joanne98]

9. I just talked to the new new vet....

He said to give him glusomine chronrotim suffate and put him on a diet.

[flvegan]

13. Glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate are a good start

Does this vet feel that no damage has actually taken place?

[Joanne98]

21. He hasn't seen him yet. I'm just trying to decide whether to put him

down or not. I don't want to but I don't have the money for surgery and it's both legs and I don't know if he will deal mentality with something like that. He's a big baby. But maybe if I restrict his activity and it heals some....I don't know. I really appreciate your help.

[flvegan]

44. Both legs?

You also mentioned his hipbones. Is he dysplastic, or is it in his knees.

I got your pm, btw, and I'm trying to figure out the cheapest way to do this. Does your vet do imaging, such that the xrays can be e-mailed?

[Joanne98]

45. Our first vet Xrayed his hip and leg

and said he has an old ACL tear and because of that he has drawer movement in his left stifle and arthritis and some degree of hip dysplasia (unrelated). The second vet's exam concluded drawer movement in both stifles (no new Xrays) and said it was probably from putting excess weight on the second leg to comp for the first injury and that ideally two surgeries would be needed in sucession and even with extensive rehab he would always be on anti-inflammatory drugs and have limited mobility.

Hi,
That was my sister, she is better at explaining this than me. I only want to add. He has a hard time sitting down. He does it real slowly. We don't know if it's from the instability or if he's in pain.
Joanne98

[Raffi Ella]

10. I wouldn't put him to sleep

unless he was in pain that couldn't be helped with medication.


My dog hurt her leg or shoulder,I can't really figure out where she's hurt but now I am concerned after reading through this post;I just thought she strained something and it would get better but lately she's been having trouble getting up when she's laying on her side...what are the symptoms your dog has?

[Joanne98]

24. He was limping but not for that long. I thought he was okay...

I wish I had taken him to the vet when it first happened. I feel so guily now. I would take your dog as soon as possible.

[Joanne98]

12. I have to go to the store and get his supplement.

Please keep leaving comments. I will read when I get back

[mzteris]

14. there are dog foods with it in them - along with other

"good stuff" ......

[Joanne98]

16. Here's a woman with a website.....

Treating Canine Torn Ligament Injury --- Recovery Without TPLO or Other Surgery

Introduction | Non-Surgical Treatment / When Is Surgery Appropriate? | Surgeons_&_Surgery | The_'Conventional'_Ligament_Surgeries | TPLO / TTA | Arthritis_Risk? | Nutrition_and_Supplements | Success_Stories | Human_Parallels? | "But_the_vet_said..." | Contact_Me

This website contains information about canine ligament injury treatment.
My dog's ligament injury led to my interest in this subject.
There is nothing being sold here.

My dog Tigger ruptured ligaments in both rear legs in May 2002. He was severely disabled by this. Vets said surgery was the only option for a 100+ pound dog. The orthopedic-specialist vet said it had to be TPLO surgery. In normal circumstances I would have deferred to the vets' expertise and had the surgery. But unusual aspects of Tigger's situation led me to reluctantly decide against having the TPLO or any other surgery done.
Tigger recovered wonderfully well without surgery.
Today, more than four years later, Tigger is still doing fine.
The vets had insisted surgery was the only way to treat Tigger's torn ligaments. Tigger's complete recovery without surgery raised this question for me:

----"If Tigger could recover without surgery, what about all those other dogs the vets are insisting must have surgery?
-- Was Tigger's recovery some kind of miracle?
-- Or could surgery be unnecessary for many other dogs that vets are insisting must have surgery?"
That question prompted me to look into dog ligament injury and its treatment. I have read extensively in ligament injury research literature. And I have communicated with many vets experienced in treatment of these injuries, as well as those who have studied the results of the different treatment options. I've become convinced that a large number of the surgeries done on dogs diagnosed with ligament injuries are unnecessary and inappropriate. And that surgery is often misrepresented as a more successful treatment than it really is. And that all the ligament surgeries, especially TPLO, have considerable risks which many vets who urge immediate surgery don't inform clients about. And that non-surgical recovery from ligament injury is very often the best treatment option but is ignored or dismissed by the same vets who insist on immediate surgery.

A vet may have talked to you about your dog's injury as though surgical intervention is a universally accepted medical necessity when there is ligament injury. This is not true. Surgery has become the treatment of choice for canine ligament injury among many vets despite the absence of evidence that there is any reason to prefer it to non-surgical recovery in most cases. People who give simple non-surgical recovery a chance with their dogs usually succeed.
http://home.earthlink.net/~tiggerpoz/index.html

I think I'll contact her. she sounds like she knows alot and she not selling any products.

[lukasahero]

19. My big dog (100+ lbs) had the same surgery

on both legs (at different times). Once when he was about 4 and later when he was 7. He's now 12 and still acts like a puppy. It made a huge difference and the surgery was worth every penny.

I know surgery is expensive. When he was 4 I was working for $8/hour. The vet let me do a payment plan. Please reconsider putting him down over this. PM me if I can do anything to help.

[Joanne98]

23. There is so much conflicting opinions on the web...

Some people say the surgery makes them worse. Even if I had the money and it's not cheap. The rehab.. 4 weeks in a confined space, I don't know if he can deal with this. It sounds so dramatic..

[lukasahero]

38. I do understand what you're going through

I can only give you my experience. To start, I have been blessed with exceptionally good vets. Not just in the kind and caring sense but in the quality of their skill. I suppose that can factor into the results you see reported on the web.

The dog also factors into the equation and mine, bless his heart, is a big dumb lug of a beast. He's a Lab and therefore naturally active but he's more of a "get along" kind of guy so if he's stuck inside, he deals. And of course, he's largely oblivious to pain. His reaction to the pain of the torn ligs was substantial but his reaction to the surgery was nearly non-existent. You will have to make the decision about your guy but most dogs are more adaptable than we give them credit for.

Recovery wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. He was kind of out of it the first day or two and then he learned to deal with the cast. Within a week he was hobbling around with the best of them. He was kept in one room that had no steps and where he couldn't get on things while I was at work - that's important. I did not crate him and it really wasn't 4 weeks - his cast "fell" of long before that. I did have to walk him which I never had to do before but that was just an inconvenience.

Anyway, like I said, I can only give you my experience. For the record, he's now on Rimadyl which my vet had to convince me to do because I had been researching on the web. The horror stories I had heard scared the crap out of me. My vet reassured me and we watched Beau closely. That was three years ago. His life has been much improved because of the surgery and the Rimadyl.

I will keep you in my thoughts. Seriously, PM me if you want to talk. (I'll be offline for a while but will check back later tonight.)

[Joanne98]

43. Thanks. I'll put you on my buddy list. It's so overwhelming....

[SoCalDem]

20. A couple of our DUers are vets.. Maybe one of them will weigh in..

Don;t do anything rash until you are 100% sure..

Is there a university near you? Some have veterinary studies there too, and might consider your dog as a patient.. They are often the most up to date on techniques..

Positive vibes to you and your baby :hug:

[Joanne98]

27. University one hour away. My sister and I are at work all the time

We only have one car right now. God I've had so many problems lately. My son just got sentenced to prison for 8 yrs. I feel like I'm whining on DU all the time. I usually never do that but damn...

[undeterred]

22. I had both of my dog's cruciate ligaments repaired

for a total of $2500. They had been ruptured for a while, and it helped him walk better.

[Joanne98]

25. They told me 2000 for one leg. I would have to keep him caged for

4 weeks, then have the other done and cage him again. I don't know if I can do that do him.;(

[undeterred]

29. thats way too high for one leg

Mine was done at UW Vet School where he got excellent care. But I know other people in the community who have had it done for more like $800-$900 per leg. I never caged him, just kept his activity low. I did one on June 1 and the other on Sept 1- made it easier to pay for and gave him time to heal between them.

[Joanne98]

32. Thanx. I'll check around. The last vet said something about

using a sling to hold him up when he was healing. Pancho's big. To big for me and my sister to lift. This is a big deal. I can't believe I never heard of it. I'd have dogs all my life and none of them ever hurt their legs.

[undeterred]

37. I didn't know about Harry's till after he had cancer

He had a lump on his right front paw and I drove him up to the vet school for treatment- and they cured him. At the end of treatment they told me about his knees - they had been that way for some time and I never knew it. Of course I felt terrible, but its not uncommon. So I found out when he was 7 about an injury he might have had since he was 2 years old. Well, he was always a little limpy, even as a pup. So I "rehabbed" my dog- spent $6000 in a year, but I had a good job that year and it all helped him live a better, longer life. He has arthritis now, he's 14.

A friends dog broke his back playing and she didn't know it till the next day- then it was $1800 worth of neurosurgery... :shrug:

[lukasahero]

40. That IS way too high for one leg

Seriously. My dog's first cost $1200. The second was around $1000. Not sure how it would have added up had both been done together. I'm not sure you can even do that anyway - if your vet is suggesting doing both at the same time, I think I'd question him. (A dog's gotta walk...)

Where are you located?

[Joanne98]

42. Ohio. I'm beginning not to trust the vets. That why I'm on my third one.

[AngryAmish]

26. If you love your dog you know what the right thing to do is

It's hard but we have a responsibility to our pets.

[Joanne98]

46. What do you mean?

[Joanne98]

39. Here's an interesting anti-surgery opinion....

She says that the surgery does not repair the ligament. Once a ligament is torn it's not repairable. I wonder it all of this is true.

Treating Canine Torn Ligament Injury --- Recovery Without TPLO or Other Surgery

The 'Conventional' ACL / CCL Surgeries

http://home.earthlink.net/~tiggerpoz/index.html

Introduction | Non-Surgical Treatment / When Is Surgery Appropriate? | Surgeons_&_Surgery | The_'Conventional'_Ligament_Surgeries | TPLO / TTA | Arthritis_Risk? | Nutrition_and_Supplements | Success_Stories | Human_Parallels? | "But_the_vet_said..." | Contact_Me


There are dozens and dozens of variations of surgeries used for canine ligament injury. Every vet-surgeon has his preferred method. One wise old vet said that when you see a large number of surgical approaches to a single problem it is an indication that none of the surgeries is very satisfactory.


The non-TPLO surgical procedures are commonly referred to as the 'Conventional' or 'Traditional' surgeries. There are dozens of intracapsular and extracapsular variations. It is important for you to know that the dogs' ligaments are not reattached or replaced in any of these surgeries. Vets will often fail to make this clear to their clients. Many vets lead people to believe that the surgery is a 'repair' in the sense that the damaged ligaments will be restored to function or replaced. This is not the case.
'Artificial Ligaments'? -- Calling the wires or nylon suture material used in conventional ligament surgery 'Artificial Ligaments' has become a common practice among surgeons. There is an element of truth in this in that the wire (or heavy nylon suture) performs one of the ligament's functions temporarily by stabilizing the stifle. But it does this for only a short while before it loosens ( the loosening of these stabilizing wires is referred to as 'creep') The wire/nylon doesn't have other qualities of a real ligament. Calling it an 'artificial ligament' and leading people to believe that it will be there acting permanently like a ligament in place of the ruptured ligament is deceptive.
Ironically, a favorite line that some vets use to try to sell you surgery is "Those ligaments won't repair themselves." Many people have told me that vets said this to them in trying to convince them to have surgery done. It's true that ligaments don't repair themselves, but it's also true that the surgery the vet advocates isn't going to repair the ligaments either. Ligament repair or replacement with surgery is just not an option. The ligaments, once torn, are gone forever. Anyone who tries to tell you different is either mistaken or deceitful. Dogs' ligaments are not repaired or replaced in these surgeries.
The various intracapsular and extracapsular ligament surgeries all act to temporarily enhance the stability of the joint with metal wire or a synthetic suture material similar to fishing line. No surgery replaces or repairs the ligaments. No surgery is a permanent stabilization. The wire or synthetic material used to temporarily stabilize the joint will stretch and loosen as the leg is used. It becomes ineffective as it loosens in a matter of months.
The theory behind these surgeries is that they provide temporary stability while the dog's body builds up supporting tissue around the joint. That new tissue will provide stability when the artificial stabilization of the wire is no longer effective. This is the same type of supporting tissue that is built up in a non-surgical recovery.
Whether or not surgery is done, ultimately it is the dog's own healing process which provides support for the recovered joint. It is the newly formed supporting tissue which stabilizes the joint for the long term.
Tigger's non-surgical recovery and many similar non-surgical recoveries show that providing temporary stabilization enhancement with surgery is unnecessary in many cases where surgeons recommend it.

Recovery, with or without surgery, requires carefully restricted activity and a slow increase in exercise over months while avoiding over-stressing the joint. Activity must be sufficiently restricted to allow the new supporting tissue to slowly develop without being damaged by excessive stresses on the joint.

The final result is in no way inferior if surgery is avoided. Healing using Conservative Management provides a final result that is as good or better than the best result obtainable with surgery.
Provided the injured joint retains the minimal stability necessary for non-surgical recovery, surgery does not lead to a faster recovery.
Surgery does not result in a recovered joint that is more secure from future injury, less likely to have future arthritic changes, or in any way superior to a joint that has recovered using non-surgical Conservative Management.

Ligament surgeries are often done unnecessarily. Conservative Management would work well in many cases where surgery is done.


http://home.earthlink.net/~tiggerpoz/index.html