are Star Trek humans socialists?

[Dukkha]

in the Star Trek universe 24th century humans have achieved world peace and a total utopian society on Earth. As stated on the show, one of the primary reasons is they abandoned a capitalist economic structure and have no money, therefore greed and material wealth is no longer the driving force for humanity. The all work to better themselves. So aside from serving in Starfleet, there are humans and colonists who live in homes and work on their own. It's never really explained how their society functions. Without income there's no wealth redistribution through taxing, so socialism doesn't seem to apply in the traditional sense of definition. The same with communism. Roddenberry and Berman seem to leave that open for speculation as to how they achieved this state and how humans provide for themselves outside of the Federation.

[Downtown Hound]

1. Well. I think the fact that they can replicate food and materials

out of thin air with simple energy has eliminated a lot of the problems that humans now face. There is essentially no more supply and demand economics. It occurs to me that the biggest problem humanity would face at such a point would be overpopulation, as people would be free to build as big of a house as they wanted, filled with as much stuff as they wanted, and so forth. It would get pretty crowded down here if everybody could build a mansion for themselves on acres of land and so forth.

Hence, why they might want to explore space. The Federation does seem to have idealistic goals when it comes to dealing with other life forms, but ultimately they are about expansion through colonies and free trade with other societies. They simply try not to do it at the expense of others.

[Dukkha]

2. we know in their time line there's a nuclear holocaust

and all the major cities are destroyed. They probably developed building standards when they rebuilt their society and have limits on land distribution. They also have total control of the atmosphere and weather so much more of the Earth's land mass is hospitable so Antarctica, Greenland, Siberia, and others would be usable living enviroments.

[NewJeffCT]

28. when was there a nuclear holocaust on Trek?

They had the Eugenics Wars, if I recall. And, I remember there were wars between North America/USA and the Eastern Alliance... I don't recall nuclear holocaust in Star Trek?

Of course, I'm not exactly the world's #1 trekkie/trekker. So, I would not be surprised if I was wrong.

[thefool_wa]

30. I believe there were nuclear weapons used

During the war that immediately preceded first contact, and it left permanent wastelands on Earth, but not total devastation (my Trek knowledge is Movie/TV based - there may be more exploration of this in novel form). From the state of affairs demonstrated in the movie First Contact, I think that the human race on Earth (that wasn't still fighting) was already close to living in a currency free world simply due to lack of infrastructure leading to an inability to obtain or possibly even produce it. If I recall, you never see Zefram Cochram or anyone else purchasing what they drink at the lean-to bar and everything they have is scavenged from one place or another. Hell, things are so bad that they are able to permanently commandeer a ballistic missile silo. They don't just leave those things empty and leave a missile in them. I think things were very bad just before the Vulcans showed up.

So, if this is the case and the majority of normal people are existing in communal villages which already have no currency, when the Vulcans show up with the support and technology of the entire galaxy and the willingness to bring it to Earth, the accustom absence and the lack of a need would make the transition to a currency free society much easier.

How to actually run a currency free society is a much more complicated question. However, I do not think it is impossible, especially in their fictional universe where they have the benefit of the historical failures of everything from Communism to (apparently) Capitalism. Also, even if they had currency, do you think they take Dollars on Vulcan? :)

[yvr girl]

14. As people's wealth grows

they tend to have less children.

[JVS]

23. I'm not so sure of the causality and the truth of that

On one hand having more kids can actively make you poorer.

Another factor could be that as the individual's expectation for luxury increases, they become less willing to devote income to offspring.

It seems odd to me that Germany offers Child-raising money from the government to families and still is unable to sustain their population.

[yvr girl]

25. Western countries have much lower birth rates

It's partially because we don't NEED large families anymore. Not many of us have farms to work. Most children who are born will survive until adulthood.

We also have lifestyles that are more expensive, and easier to support with less children. You can only fit so many people in a car. It cost lots of money to send your kids to college, etc.

[Kellanved]

33. The social setup is utterly against children

The whole education system relies on women staying at home and raising the kids. The school system is about 30% home-schooling, daycare hardly available in most states. Basically women have to kiss their careers goodbye, if they want to have children. Especially in conservative regions, working mothers are called "Rabenmütter" and discriminated against.
At the same time, wages are too low to support a family with just one income. The society has failed to accept that fact so far. Very few companies offer viable working conditions for mothers.

As a result, just the very wealthy and the very poor are having children - nobody else can afford it.

The payments by the government are a bad joke. After three years of pause, the career is wrecked. That money would have been better spent in free daycare - but the conservatives won't allow that. They also crushed the original plan to only allow payments if both parents take turns in rising the kids.

[JVS]

34. Our social system is worse in the US and we manage to have more kids on average.

[YankeyMCC]

3. A "Cornucopia Economy" society

Got that term from "Newton's Wake" by MacLeod

But they have all they need, yet there is clearly room for people making profit and earning "livings"

The detials of how such a system works are not clear obviously :)

[skygazer]

4. Well, there are some glimpses into darker realities

For one thing, there are many episodes that deal, either directly or indirectly with mining colonies. You figure all that energy for replication, etc. has to come from somewhere. I've always pondered on their mining techniques and the damage or lack of same they're doing to these planets and moons that they're mining.

They also do a good amount of trading. So there is a sense of capitalism and the acknowledgment of monetary value even if they don't have money per se.

There are plenty of inconsistencies in the Star Trek universe but I still love it and appreciate that view of the future as opposed to the doom-laden apocalyptic version so many movies and shows offer.

[thefool_wa]

31. Trade would be the only plausible form of commerce

In a galaxy as diverse in both denizens and resources as that in Star Trek. There would be so many different kinds of currency that it would make the international trade fiascoes we deal with here on Earth today seem trivial. No one in a divided universe is going to give you goods for paper (or worse, electrons), they are going to want goods in return, and goods they can use.

I'm also fairly certain that enlisted-man level participation in Starfleet would either (best case) be so attractive that anyone who couldn't cut it doing something on Earth could wash dishes in 10-Forward and see the galaxy or (worst case) be compulsory if you were not able to come up with something else by a certain point in your life.

Hell, when I got out of high school if the option had been: "seven days to find a job or I'm joining Starfleet" and not "seven days to find a job or I'm joining the navy" I honestly don't think I would have given it seven days.

[spillthebeans]

5. If there is no money why should someone work?

Why be on a "ncc 1701 abcd" and not at home?

[intrepid_wanderer]

6. well..

well... for the adventure Johnnnnny!

see the galaxy, extend ethnic engineer's stereotypes, & most certainly define your inter-galactic stance on inter-species homosexual relationships!!

(I mean, everybody knows..... )

[spillthebeans]

8. If they still had those mini skirts I would agree

[Bucky]

12. Regarding those Star Trek miniskirt-wearing astronauts...

I understand that in the original Star Trek, Uhura wouldn't wear panties on the set and in some of the first season episodes you can even see her panties in the background hanging off of Scottie's monitor screen.

[spillthebeans]

15. really? I missed that

[Bucky]

17. Well, actually, I just made that up. But wouldn't that be an awesome urban legend to start?

[Deja Q]

32. With the way offshoring is going, maybe America is the Enterprise...

No jobs, so what's left? :evilgrin:

[originalpckelly]

7. I used to be a socialist, mainly because of Star Trek...

I thought we could get to that world through socialism. Then I came to realize Star Trek is simply fiction and doesn't model human behavior, just like socialism and it's deformed twin don't either.

People are greedy bastards, if we understand that and use that instinct against itself, by way of checks and balances, then our system will create a great quality of life.

The message of Star Trek isn't one of economics, but in general one of hope, that things don't have to stay crappy, they can get better.

[intrepid_wanderer]

10. BRAVO! I concurrrr n/t

[Deja Q]

11. Seconded. (thirded, technically)

Though is greed always limited to money?

[originalpckelly]

19. No, actually.

Hence the reason we have checks and balances in our government.

It's a wonderful system, because it uses greed against itself.

People in Congress are supposed to be greedy and try to steal power from the executive and the judicial branches. The President is supposed to be greedy and try to steal power from the legislative and judicial branches, and the courts are supposed to do the same to the executive and legislative.

All of this greed checks itself.

Unfortunately, the framers didn't create a perfect system, and they didn't plan a system for political parties. We just witnessed the outcome of that on and off over six years. One party was greedy for power and it through the whole system out of whack, because the people in Congress and the executive and even the courts, instead of working against each other, worked together for their own collective greed.

[SPKrazy]

9. Yes! n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

13. Waidaminit

They had to pay for Tribbles. :shrug:

[JVS]

24. And Mudd's hot hot hot women!

[Bucky]

16. Stalinists, actually.

You'll notice that all the work of managing Earth's affairs is run by Star Fleet--the military--who operate under a guiding populist philosophy that they willingly disregard its moral precepts every time they stand in the way of running a successful mission. Oh, it always starts off with that "we come in the name of peace and brotherhood" crapola. But treat your proletarians wrong and the Enterprise crew will overthrow your government and reveal your "god" to be a computer relic from an ancient society in a New York minute. Plus, all your babes are belong to Kirk. And who are the big villains in the Star Trek universe? Nazi-like Klingons and Harry Mudd, a simple bootstraps capitalist trying to make a living this screwed up utopia of Roddenbury's dreams.

[Solon]

20. Actually, that's not true...

Earth isn't run by Starfleet, we see starfleet in everything because its the focus of the shows, but they are mostly a defense/exploration force only. The United Federation of Planets is run from Paris, under a Parliamentary system. It also combines a Confederation system as well. Member planets(including Earth, apparently), have their own governments, generally they are encouraged to be a form of Democracy of one sort or another, other than that, there is an almost totally hands off approach by the UFP in administration of said planets. The only exceptions would be small colonies that may not be large enough to be self-sustaining and are administered directly. The United Federation of Planets is more along the lines of a defensive pact combined with SOME overreaching administrative functions, more similar to the European Union than the United States.

Actually, one Deep Space 9 episode(a 2 parter), deals with this almost exclusively. During the Dominion threat, some Starfleet officers were concerned that the UFP wasn't prepared adequately for the threat. The Parliament of the United Federation of Planets just elected a new president, this is why I say its a parliamentary system. So these officers conspired to overthrow the government, and install a military government to deal with this new threat. The plot was exposed, and they were arrested, obviously(Sisko saves the day).

Yeah, I'm a Star Trek geek, so sue me! :)

[mduffy31]

22. You beat me to it

I was going to cite that very same episode arc, Homefront and Paradise Lost.

[Cobalt-60]

18. Picard did tell that fellow that there was no wealth or money

They have virtually unlimited energy resources in the form of total conversion - antimatter - power.
Between the transporter and the replicator and all that juice, the actual cost of producing anything is minimal.
Basic material needs seem to be covered for everyone.
Although it is unclear how one might acquire their own starship. Given the godlike power of their tech, it should be as easy to obtain as breakfast.
They do use currency in the hinterlands. Currency was always about on DS9.

[JVS]

21. That's hard to say, because most of the Trek characters are military

Because they are military, they do not portray the economic activities that drive the economy.

I can point to several examples of private enterprise in Star Trek.

Mudd's Women, an episode where a man named Mudd delivers mail-order brides on beauty enhancing drugs to lonely miners.

The Trouble with Tribbles, where a guy sells rapidly breeding furballs to a bartender at a space station as a profit making trinket

There was an episode with a silicon based worm that tunneled through rocks and was getting in the way of a bunch of miners' profits.

Spock once passed himself off as a Vulcan merchant when he and Kirk got trapped on a planet during a Klingon invasion.

[hunter]

26. I sure as hell got too much stuff.

Sometimes when I'm sorting through it all I look back fondly to the time every damned thing I owned fit easily in the back of my little pickup truck. I could move out of a place in four hours, and most of that was simply cleaning the place up so I could get my deposit back.

In a culture where everything is easily available to everyone, I imagine any form of materialism or consumerism begins to look pretty sucky. After all, who wants to be tied down to a bunch of crap when you can fly off to Paris or Antarctica or even a fancy Hotel on the Moon on a whim?

[NewJeffCT]

27. They've mentioned paying using "credits" before

so, I'm not sure they are a moneyless society.

[hunter]

29. I always imagined various sorts of tokens and incentives...

...sort of like gift cards and bus passes and Cracker Jack prizes. On the surface it might look like a very primitive sort of capitalism, with people often trading actual goods -- things like glass marbles for comic books, and so on -- but underneath all the big things like housing would be carefully moderated by complex algorithms.

If all you want to do is eat nachos and play video games, then you might only get a basic housing credit which maybe entitles you to a studio apartment with a lovely view of the recycling yard, and a monthly visit by a very friendly mental health professional trying to figure out what's wrong with you.

If you'd rather do something we would regard today as "work" then your housing credits would entitle you to much nicer accommodations.

I also imagine some sort of socially acceptable vagabond culture, people who deliberately choose to live outside the common economic systems.