when is a girl too old to lounge on her uncle's lap?

[grasswire]

Please provide your opinion on this situation.

A 14-year-old girl in my extended family makes a habit of lounging on her uncle's lap when he is sitting. I say lounging because she doesn't perch on his knee, she lays back and tucks her head on his neck and essentially covers him from her head to her toes. He sits down and she's basically on top of him.

Some factors: there is NOTHING creepy going on from him. He doesn't invite it, doesn't touch her in any way, and is a newlywed with a beautiful wife. He's thirty. There is no creep factor from his side. There is a slight creep factor coming in vibes from her.

The girl has always been boy crazy and a teen romance addict, loving all those cheezy TV shows, movies, and fiction where there is drama and conflict and girls stealing boyfriends and yada yada yada. Everything she knows about female romance, she learned from those sources.

She is 5'8" tall and 140 pounds, and dresses in a mildly seductive manner.

Another thing to know is that she has father hunger -- her dad left the home when she was about nine and she only sees him a couple of times a year. This uncle is the strongest male figure in her life, and he is a great, solid guy.

So yes, she does really need male affection from what is essentially the father substitute.

But is this lounging on top of the man inappropriate? Should she be told that women sit next to their male relatives, not lay on top of them?

Your opinion, please?

[amitten]

1. Not appropriate. Nothing wrong with affection, but laying across

someone's body at that age isn't really normal.

[BikeWriter]

10. My kids think not being affectionate with kin "isn't really normal."

[amitten]

11. I believe in LOTS of affection. That doesn't include lying across

a grown man's body. It includes things like hugs and kisses, and sitting close (but not on top of).

[BikeWriter]

12. My kids have always "dogpiled" on each other, their Mom, and me.

[amitten]

55. If her whole family doesn't show affection this way, then it is

rather abnormal for her to be doing it.

Some families walk around naked around each other. But if one lone fourteen-year-old is doing it, and only in front of a certain uncle, and it's not the family norm, it would be considered strange/possibly sexualized.

That's what people are perceiving here. She's focusing only on the uncle, and it's not normal behavior within the family. So, something is possibly amiss. It doesn't mean that affection or "pig piles" are unacceptable. But you're comparing apples to oranges.

[mainegreen]

2. I see nothing wrong with family pig piles in any way.

But then my family consists of touchy feely europeans. I notice a big difference between what my wife's stodgy yankee family is comfortable with and what my family is comfortable with.

[BikeWriter]

13. Thank you. :-)

[Coventina]

3. Sounds like she has a crush on the guy.

My niece went through a mild infatuation with my husband, but she's a couple years younger than your relative.

It's probably a passing phase.

There isn't really a whole lot you can do, it's up to her parents or the guy she's sitting on to take any action required.

I don't blame you for getting creeped out, though. It sounds like she's pretty aggressive, sexually.

[BikeWriter]

4. In my opinion, as long as it is only affectionate, no problem!

I have thirty year old Neices sit on my lap! :shrug:

[grasswire]

6. sit on your lap? or lay on top of you?

I've got no problem with the former.

[BikeWriter]

9. Hey, I get hugs and kisses from my kin, too!

Kept on an affectionate basis I have never had a problem with it and I'm sixty-one years old. :shrug:

[chaska]

5. Danger, Will Robinson!

Do you seriously need to ask this? Better put a stop to this pronto.

[Schema Thing]

7. It's not appropriate, and she is being sexual I would almost

guarantee, at that age and that size. And yet, the most damage possible would come from making a big deal of it, imo.

If I were him, I'd just make a point to give her a kiss on the forehead and push her off nicely and find an excuse to get up and do something else where she couldn't lounge on him.

And if the mom of this girl is very VERY cool, I might have a talk that emphasized the need not to make a big deal out of it, but keep and eye on it.

[grasswire]

14. there has been discussion about it...

...between the adult females of the family. The mother says the girl desperately needs to satisfy the "father hunger" and resists any idea that it is inappropriate. But the mother infantilizes the girl to some degree, not acknowleging that she is really a young woman. The girl drew an interesting picture of herself and mom the other day. In the pic, she herself was a child, about nine years old, standing next to her adult mom. This is the way the mom thinks of her in the family system. I've got a feeling this is going to be a rocky teenage time ahead, as the obviously sexually mature girl tries to express her affection toward males and learn what is appropriate and what isn't while some famly members still think of her as a child.

Thanks for the input.

[BikeWriter]

15. IMO, she has not had near enough affection shown from Father figures.

We learn how to show affection and love from our elders.

[idgiehkt]

29. She's sexualized, get it?

Why do you have a blind spot where this is concerned?

[BikeWriter]

33. You don't know that. Only she does.

[idgiehkt]

37. the OP is picking up on it.

All the adults in the damn family are picking up on it. You don't want to acknowlege it because it's not convenient to your world view, which is pretty fucking creepy.

[Schema Thing]

30. quite likely true. that's why the need to tread carefully

Families can be so prudish about sexuality, that they do harm by overreacting.

She needs to not be made to feel like anyone thinks she is pervy, yet still be shown another way to get (and give) affection.

And to some extent, they may just have to put up with it for a while. She will by nature move on eventually.

[BikeWriter]

34. Yes, and if the uncle is as great as we've been told she'll be just fine.

[idgiehkt]

35. well said

it is a very delicate situation because she could be damaged by action or inaction, either way the family needs to tread carefully. My fears about her behavior is that a predator will hone in on this kind of thing like a bee to honey, she is very vulnerable...it's possible that that may have already happened.

I disagree that they have to put up with it. The uncle is a grown human being, and he needs to get off his duff and move away from her, remove himself from the situation, and the family needs to put enough pressure on him that he sees that as his only acceptable course of action.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

57. heyup.

it's kind of creepy that the uncle put up with that once, frankly.

not to mention the uncle's wife. sounds like the 14 yr old needs to get a little introduction to the world of barriers courtesy of a straight-talking aunt.

[BikeWriter]

8. This sounds like some people are assuming far too much.

I told all my children, Step-Daughters and Sons, don't ever think you are too old to be held in Daddy's lap. My Neices and Nephews have thanked me for being demonstratively affectionate in front of my Brother, their Father. They say he has learned from me to show his affection.

[leftofthedial]

16. 19

[BikeWriter]

17. Hee hee hee! Why not 19 and a half?

[idgiehkt]

43. this post says it all.

:puke:

:puke:

:puke:

:puke:

:puke:

:puke:

[BikeWriter]

45. You assume far too much.

[Perky]

18. This needs to be stopped

and the person to do so if she able is the new bride. needs a deft touch and obviously should not come across as "jealousy" or a rivalry but it is encroachment and will lead to problems with the newlyweds. Get the bride involved and hatch a plan that works where no one gets defensive or territorial.

[BikeWriter]

21. Ruin the only affectionate relationship she has with an adult male?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

58. yes.

oh the horror! gimme a break.

[Perky]

19. This needs to be stopped

and the person to do so if she able is the new bride. needs a deft touch and obviously should not come across as "jealousy" or a rivalry but it is encroachment and will lead to problems with the newlyweds. Get the bride involved and hatch a plan that works where no one gets defensive or territorial.

[idgiehkt]

28. I agree Perky

however I think the responsible adult is the man she is sitting on. He needs to be a man, and when he sees her coming, he needs to get up and move. It's not that complicated. He needs to tell her 'no', move his position, avoid the situation. He's an adult with a brain, I don't understand the need for the wife to run interference in this.

[Perky]

38. Yeah but they are tight

and at her age it needs to be done in a way that does not reference her "comung of age" or her issues with her dad. I am just saying it needs to be done delicately with out her feeling misunderstood, accused or rejected.

I am just saying its tricky.

[idgiehkt]

40. I don't think at 14 she will pick up on any of that if he

just moves away. But bringing another female into is something she might interpret as just jealousy from the wife...you are right, it's very tricky. I'm pretty disturbed about it, based on my own experience.

[PrimeRibGuy]

52. That was my thought too.

He needs to avoid her during this time, shit like this will turn out fine but he needs to reallize what is going on.

[BikeWriter]

20. You say, "she does really need male affection from what is essentially the father substitute."...

If he is the great guy you say he is, and has adopted the role of Father figure and she knows it, I think it's perfectly healthy for her to cuddle up to him. I have adult Step-Daughters who got little or no affection from their "sperm donors" who consider me to be their "Daddy."

[idgiehkt]

25. interesting

the OP says he/she detects a sexual vibe from the girl toward this man, yet you are not concerned. That's fucked up.

[BikeWriter]

32. My views are "fucked up?" I raised healthy step Daughters, too.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

51. Would you let it go?

Teenagers are DUMBASSES about this stuff. I highly doubt that she is some predatory thing out for sex, and if she is, then she can be dealt with. Stop acting as if BW is a pedophile or something.

[Porcupine]

56. Not for a minute. Teen girls pretend ignorance so they can play power games.

I've had had two girls who were neighbors and babysitters of my kids try these games with me. They would come by to visit my wife when she was unlikely to be home. I would take them out to the porch and talk to them there. Several times I had to tell each girl that flashing a married man was likely to get her banned from the prescence of his family. Eventually they started to talk to me as a mentor rather than a romantic foil. One girl I coached in martial arts and the other would raid my library. They both made it to 18 without any major problems and went off to college.

Grown men are supposed to be SAFE but girls also will test that safety to dangerous levels if not corrected early. Affection is good and fine but should not involve anything close to what is described in the OP.

[grasswire]

69. this is true

The sexualization of girls who aren't old enough to understand the ramification of their behaviors has produced many of those scenarios. This girl reads and watches that kind of drama consistently. She may be subliminally testing that "script."

[wain]

22. What does the uncle say? What does the new bride say?

Is either one of them complaining or relating their discomfort to others in the family?

[BikeWriter]

24. That's a very good point, Wain.

[idgiehkt]

26. They don't matter.

It is the child that matters in this situation, and her mental and emotional state. They are adults, she is not.

[BikeWriter]

27. The Child is getting fraternal affection from her uncle. WWJD?

..and I am atheist/ agnostic. :shrug:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BikeWriter]

36. Children go through plases learning to be adult. You didn't?

[idgiehkt]

39. What?

What does that have to do with this situation? She's not learning to be an adult, she's showing innappropriate sexualized behavior toward an adult male relative.

As far as your question about 'what would Jesus do', here's your answer:
"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mark 9:42, King James Version

[grasswire]

65. the uncle is oblivious

When she's doing it, he's yakking to other family members sitting in the same room. He still thinks of her as a kid. She also jumps on his back for piggyback rides. Again, she's 140 pounds and the tallest person in her family.

Again, I'm not at all worried that he will ever think sexually about her. He is as straight and solid as a person can be.

I am worried about her development of boundaries as she seeks to express her budding sexuality, for reasons of her safety. She is a very giddy girl who craves excitement and danger and believes all the ridiculous tripe that television aims at young teen girls about needing to win a man through treachery and manipulations of others. Example: she was stunned to hear that not every sister steals the sibling's boyfriends. She said "That's what sisters do!!"

[Pale Blue Dot]

73. Self-delete

Others said what I was thinking much more eloquently. See #44.

[idgiehkt]

23. I think it needs to be stopped

You answered your own question:

"There is a slight creep factor coming in vibes from her."

She's sexualizing it, but that topic should never be broached with her. She needs therapy. I half her age and doing the same kinds of things, I'm speaking from personal experience here. His reaction doesn't matter. I think you should be very, very careful how you handle this, because if you make her feel less than chaste in some way it could reinforce her low self-esteem. I feel strongly like you need to seek professional advice about it.

[BikeWriter]

41. Too many irrational posts in this witch hunt! I'm putting it on ignore,

[idgiehkt]

42. truth too inconvenient?

well, I'll be saying some prayers tonight.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

59. i, for one, idgiehkt, find it completely f***ed

that people are putting this thread on ignore over your posts.

i'm honestly in a state of disbelief about that. wtf?!!!

[wain]

54. I'm with BikeWriter - my first ignore

on edit: I'm hiding this thread. It's not the author that's irrational; just some of the strange responses by one. Sorry.

[Lyric]

44. She's a child, the uncle is the adult.

If there's anything inappropriate going on, it's *his* responsibility to talk to her about it. For the record--it's perfectly natural for a blossoming young woman to "practice" her womanly skills on "safe" males--males who will not expect sexual favors if she behaves a certain way. However, she needs to understand that any behavior that makes her uncle uncomfortable is not appropriate. Being as young as she is, she doesn't know where that line is yet, and if he's allowing her to continue this behavior, then he's the one at fault, because he's confusing her about what's appropriate and what is not.

If he's uncomfortable with it, but doesn't want to "make an issue" of it, then a little white lie wouldn't hurt. Something like "Sweetie, I have sore muscles in my legs and although I appreciate your affection, sitting on me like that makes my legs hurt. Maybe you could sit beside me instead?"

Making a big deal of it is probably not a good idea--the last thing you want to do with a confused 14 year old girl is to give her negative associations about showing affection. Counseling for the uncle would be a good idea--let him talk to someone who can give him good ideas for steering her away from this behavior without creating negative associations about sex/affection/touching.

Just my $0.02

[idgiehkt]

46. I've never heard this about 'safe' males.

Interesting. I think the danger lies in figuring out who is 'safe' and 'unsafe'. I encountered plenty of unsafe males growing up, and most of them were related to me; one was an uncle, in fact, who was a hardcore predator who served 8 years in prison for statutory rape of a 14 year-old.

I had always assumed that children/adolescents/teenagers learn sexuality in a natural progression with their peers. The only adults that would willfully involve themselves in a child's sexual coming of age are most likely predators, and they hone in on the kind of behavior this girl is displaying, which is why I'm concerned for her welfare beyond this particular sitatuation.

[Lyric]

48. I agree--which is why the uncle needs to

make sure he's helping her learn where the boundaries are. As for determining who's "safe" and "unsafe", that's where the parents need to do their part. No young lady of that age should be alone at any time with men who *aren't* safe, no matter how they are related, or how old they are. Young girls often make the mistake of believing that if their parents allow them around a man, he must be "safe"--it's tragic how often this is wrong. I made that mistake myself, at age 14. It's taken a lot of time, love, and good counseling to get over it.

However, since the OP implied that this uncle is "safe", then I'm assuming that this is just a problem of confused boundaries with the girl--not surprising for a young lady without a stable father figure in her life. If the uncle himself cannot/will not handle this by himself, perhaps a nice day-trip with a trusted female family member who can nudge the girl in the right direction without humiliating her or making her feel like she did something disgusting/wrong/taboo might be a good idea.

[idgiehkt]

49. I'm so sorry.

Bless your heart. But I don't think you made a mistake at all, you were a child and I hope that you aren't blaming yourself because you weren't protected. No child can gauge whether a man is safe or not and predators specialize in giving the appearance of safety to deliberately confuse children in order to get access to the child, it's their whole life purpose. I think the OP implied there is a problem with the mother in this case to and it's not just the lack of the father that is causing trouble. The whole thing kind of bums me out.

[grasswire]

68. thank you for your insights

I knew when I posted the original post that some women might read it who had been the victim of unwanted attention from a male relative. I sure didn't want anyone to be re-traumatized. Thank you so much for your wise words and generous spirit.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Right, when I was a college professor, I had students (both male and female)

get crushes on me occasionally, and since I thought that it was healthiest for them to get over it as soon as possible and find someone their own age, I made sure that boundaries were respected at all times. For example, I made a point of never being alone with them and if they tried to flirt, I pretended that I was oblivious and answered in an unsmiling, yet not hostile professional manner.

Unlike other faculty members who were not so careful, I never had problems with students making passes or, on the other side of the coin, accusing me of sexual harassment.

Someone has to be the adult.

[grasswire]

64. yeah, a friend of mine lost his job after thirty years....

....of teaching American history at a New England college because his interest in a student was misinterpreted. There was no "there" there, but he was dismissed anyway.

[grasswire]

66. thanks for the insight

I think that if I were to say anything to him directly, he would be shocked and surprised. But the stickler is the girl's mother, his sister. She doesn't want anyone to discourage the girl from seeking this safe affection from the father substitute. She still sees (as I said) the girl in terms of a child. The girl works that with her, actually, lisping when talking to her mother and letting her mother cut her meat, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Some adult needs to talk to her

Lying (not "laying") back while sitting on an adult male's lap is not appropriate behavior for a post-puberty girl. Maybe her uncle is fine with it, but some other adult male could seriously misinterpret the gesture.

Once you're post puberty, sitting on someone's lap has definite sexual connotations.

It reminds me of the time I attended a party where two of the other guests were a mother and her 14-year-old son. After dinner, when we were in the living room, the son, who was small for his age, but already showing the beginning signs of puberty, climbed into his mother's lap to cuddle.

It creeped me out.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

50. Hey 14, that's 'Retha Franklin....

*hemhem*

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Anyhow, yeah, that's pretty weird, but we teenagers can be real dumbasses sometimes. If she's trying to be "sexual" about it, she needs a polite but firm "knock it off." If she's just geniunely hungry for a father figure, or something, and doesn't mean to be sexual, then perhaps she can be guided into just sitting with the uncle and laying her head on his shoulder, or something.

[skygazer]

60. I think this was the most sensible reply on this thread

No hysteria, no panic, just common sense. :thumbsup:

I agree.

[tinfoil tiaras]

61. I'm not close with my dad at all

(he think's we're close, but we're not...long story)

So i totally understand the whole "filling the father void" idea here (I sometimes wish that certain male celeberties I admire were my dad, but nothing more than that...wow. I'm wierd). But I don't lie all over my older, male relatives. I give them hugs and all, when they come to town or like this week, at thanksgiving when I hadn't seen any of them in a long time. I kinda agree with the people on here that are saying that laying on top of relatives (male of female) when the layer-on-topper (haha, I totally just made that up) is post pubesent can signify something sexual. I'd be kinda wierded out to see my 21 year old cousin lying all over one of my uncles or something (who are at least over 50). Is the uncle a young, relatively attractive guy? Because that might be a factor.

Just my 2 cents though. *puts on flame suit*

[grasswire]

63. he's a young thirty, and attractive

Everyone wants to sit by him at holiday dinners because he's very funny and cool. Thanks for your insight.

[tinfoil tiaras]

67. You're welcome

I know some people that seem like this uncle and, me being one of the poster children for the "father void", I want to get close to them (in a non-sexual way of course--I'm friends with one particular guy's wife). I totally know where the 14 year old is coming from, i just think she should express her admiration in more, non-sexual seeming ways.

[judaspriestess]

62. I dated a guy who's niece was very possessive of him

she was 14 and he was 32 at the time. I know he really didn't think anything of it but I could see the jealousy in this kid's eye when I was around and she would be all over him. It seemed like she had some kind of secret crush on her uncle. They even wrestled and rolled around the floor together. It was weird and uncomfortable to be competing (her not me) for this guys affections. Needless to say the relationship went downhill quick after that.

[hyde]

71. uncles and nieces can have super strong bonds

I too grew up without my dad, who died when I was an infant, and I have a really strong bond with my aunt's husband. My Uncle John really looked out for me and even now at 22 when I see him it's hugs and kisses, and I've been known to drape legs and whatnot across him while sitting on the coach. My aunt has ALWAYS had a problem with my uncle's relationship with me. Even when I was little she would get onto him for doing things for and with me, so not everyone will understand these kinds of relationships.

I wouldn't freak out about your niece. Even if she is sexualizing these "in the lap" moments that doesn't make her some head case worthy of therapy. If she does have a crush on her uncle someone, maybe another female that she is close to other than her mom, might want to sit down with her and talk to her about it. She shouldn't be made to feel like a freakazoid, because she has normal feelings in an inappropriate setting. She just needs some guidance, so she can find appropriate places to put her feelings and healthy ways in which to deal with those feelings.

[JVS]

70. When she weighs more than 110 lbs

:hide:

Or alternatively, when he has a biological reaction. ;-)

[JVS]

72. Why not talk to the Uncle about it since he's not the one giving the creepy vibe?

I'm sure he can find a way to bring this to a stop without having a traumatic conversation with the niece.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

74. What does the "beautiful wife" think about it - what's...

her reaction? Just curious.

[grasswire]

75. no reaction, really

But then she's a mature 24 years old and very secure both in her own identity and in the knowledge that her husband only has eyes for her. It's those several of us in the family who are concerned for the girl's safety in other situations where the girl may not be able to set boundaries who have talked with the mother.

[SPKrazy]

76. He Needs To Be The Adult

and set some boundaries because obviously she needs to have those there.

He can do that without alienating her as a male role model in her life I would hope.

It isn't helping her any if she's sexualizing the situation, and if she isn't, then she needs to understand that in another situation it might be misconstrued that she were being sexual.

[S n o w b a l l]

79. She's being sexual by being affectionate to her uncle???

The sexualizing is the opinion of the OP. I see nothing wrong with the affection. Does everything have to be sexual in your eyes? I find that pretty disgusting. As a woman who's very affectionate with my uncles that are 20 yrs older, I'd be horrifed if you thought i was trying to be sexual in my affections. I'm an old lady now and I still love them and I'd still sit on their lap if they'd sit still long enough. There's some ultra sensitivity going on here and I think it's tragic.

We've let sexuality become our only thoughts and so sitting on an uncle now is perverted. That's perverted imo. Everything doesn't have to be sexual you know. Of course recognize the risks for young women. But, please...come on...don't give them more reasons to fear. Good God...telling a young girl she shouldn't sit on a trusted uncle's lap???? What kind of message does that send to a young woman? You can't even trust your own loved ones? There's a way to educate your kids about pedophiles..but, not every family member or friend should be treated as one.

[grasswire]

80. calm down, please

No one is telling the girl anything. No one is suggesting treating anyone like a pedophile. It's just a confused girl whose mother refuses to recognize that the girl needs to learn boundaries so she will be safe in OTHER situations. Other family members have noticed and are concerned.

Gee.

[S n o w b a l l]

82. Calm down?

I'm sorry you misconstrued me.

[SPKrazy]

85. Thanks For Going Off On Me

I just gave my opinion based on the OP's thoughts (or my interpretation of them)

geez

[GoddessOfGuinness]

77. Someone needs to have a talk with the girl...

Not only is it inappropriate; it's rude, and shows disrespect for her uncle and his wife.

If she has issues revolving around the lack of a fatherly presence in her life, maybe she would benefit from some counseling.

[grasswire]

81. thanks for the feedback

The girl's mother doesn't see the need for any change. The mother has agreed to ask her friend who is a child psychologist about the propriety of the matter. We'll see how things go -- hopefully this is a good development.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

84. I'm glad to hear this...

Sometimes all that's needed is a talk about what kind of response heavy flirting can bring. But if the girl needs counseling, it's great that she'll have someone to turn to. I'm glad her mother's opening her eyes, too. It's so easy to view our kids through our most innocent eyes.

[Fleshdancer]

78. Is her uncle the closest thing she has to a father figure?

The way you describe her position when she cuddles him does seem very young and child like. She's 14, not a woman and not a girl but at 5'8" I would bet she struggles more than most her age. It's not exactly easy for a female that tall to look like a child and when you look older, people try to treat you like you're older which is just hard to deal with if you're not ready for it.

Maybe she feels safe to continue acting as young as she feels with a man that she has trusted her whole life. She is doing this without any sense of shame in front of other family members so this tells me she doesn't think her actions are sexual I hope.

What does her uncle think about all this? Obviously if this is making others uncomfortable then it should probably stop. Maybe he could talk to her? See what's going on at school and ask why she decides to wear provocative clothing? I don't know. From what I remember, being a 14 yr old sucks...and I had a relatively drama free, two parent home growing up. :shrug:

[grasswire]

83. thanks for your thoughtful comment

You bring up an interesting point; there is confusion between her age in years, her level of maturity (child like in some ways, over-mature in others) both on her part and in the way people treat her.

She wears provocative clothing because her choices are very much a product of the pop culture as seen on television. From the programming aimed at pre-teen girls to the very sexualized "dramas" aimed at teens, there is no greater goal for a female than being alluring to a male. She has been in trouble at home for her Internet choices, too, reading "fan fiction" that is mild porn and presenting herself as a nineteen-year-old college girl in chat rooms and such places as match.com.

There really is nothing else that interests her aside from the sexualized pop culture. No classes, no athletics, no hobbies.

As I said in a post above, the mother (who has resisted the idea that the lap thing is inappropriate) has said that she will talk to her friend who is a child psychologist about the propriety. That's a good thing, I think.