Someone Talk Me Down

[RoyGBiv]

Okay, so I'm pissed off ... like beyond pissed off and into near-postal, the kind of angry that inspires a person to take a perfectly good, long friendship and trash it in a second with a few, carefully chosen harsh words. And I need someone to talk me down, validate me or not, tell me why I should just not go off, or maybe just listen to me vent.

And before I start, thank you DU for being here and for those of you in this forum who have the stomach to read personal crap like this.

I have a daughter who'll turn 17 in about a week. I love her very much and am so proud of her for reasons too innumerable to mention that sometimes I feel like I'll burst. She doesn't live with me. Until she was about 12, we didn't have much of a relationship, a fact that was almost totally my fault, but not entirely because her mother didn't really want us to have much of relationship. (We always had a relationship, but it was not the father/daughter type of relationships of song and story until that point.) Her mother and I are very different people with different ideas on what is important. When explaining it to strangers I've always described it as her being a math person and me being an English person. What that means, boiled down, is that her mother is into the logical, the so-called eternal truths, and the concrete. I'm into the ephemeral and artistic and the chaotic. In truth we make good friends, but made horrible partners. We were simply lucky that our short-lived marriage resulted in a daughter so wonderful and so open to accepting both of us for what we were and incorporating into her own personality those parts of us she found most attractive. (She's a budding mathematician (35 on the ACT, 3 points from perfect on the SAT in that category ... and yes I'm bragging, but she deserves it after all the hard work she's put into those results) who could write novels or sculpt with the best of the ancient classic artists.) About the time she was twelve, she and I really started to understand each other, really started to talk and to bond on a level above the generic father-daughter thing, and that's when her personality really started to take on its dual aspect. It's served her well. In a few months, she'll graduate a year early, have a full ride to a major university with her choice of different kinds of scholarships, and is being recruited by schools like Georgetown ... I am in awe of her. Neither her mother nor I were ever on her level.

Our relationship has been based in part on an intellectual connection. I still remember the moment and could write at length about it, but I'll summarize by saying it began in a book store where she pondered over what books she might want to read while I suggested another that wasn't even in her peripheral vision at the time. She loved what she read and became somewhat obsessed with the author. From then on, I have been her source of suggestions for literature. She's read more authors, following their works from the beginning of their careers to the end, than any single person I know, which includes a lot of professional literary people. She's read more than I have, actually. I suggested to her she read a few books by Vonnegut I like and have read, and she responded by reading everything the man has ever written, both books and essays and articles ... everything she could find anywhere.

All of that is background.

At the moment my daughter is applying for all sorts of special educational opportunities, many of which require an argumentative essay on varied subjects as a part of the application process. She's sought my help on all these. I critique her work in an honest way, offering suggestions of how to make it better, pointing out grammar mistakes, etc. I don't write the things for her. I act as an editor. This experience has been both a result of and a part of our continued bonding. It's what we do. It's what I have with her since she has not, since she was 2, lived in my home.

I have a very close friend whom I've known since I was 15. (I'm now 37.) We are as close as brothers, and were I of a different sexual orientation, he would be the person I would most want to consider my lifelong partner. We are, truly, soul mates. I love him in more ways than I can express in words. This friend of whom I speak is gay, and having decided long ago he would not have children himself or adopt -- not wanting to suffer the pain of trying in the modern world -- he in essence adopted my daughter. He's her "uncle," or using his and her terminology, her fairy godmother.

I love all this about their relationship. I want them to be close. I want him to offer her the wisdom and experience I know he can offer, much of which she might not accept fully from me for the simple reason I am a parental figure. But, today, just today, he crossed a line ... in some people's minds probably a very trivial line ... that has me wavering on how to react. At one moment I am so angry I want to call him and tell him never to speak to my daughter again. At another moment I want to thank him for introducing her to so forcefully the concept of chaos even among that which many consider ordered to the point of irrationality.

What happened was this:

My daughter sent me an essay to critique. Due to the holidays she was only able to send it to me less than 24 hours before she had to submit it, and it was an important essay, one that will help determine her place the halls of academia once she gets there. I offered my advice, some of which I, as a writer of sorts, would not and do not follow myself due to my own disagreement with the prescriptive grammarian mindset. But, I understood her audience, and I knew what they both expected and wanted, and I knew how she could improve her piece to aid her in her quest. On that basis was my advice offered.

Not intentionally meaning to do so, my daughter forwarded this critique to my friend, the reason being the original e-mail had also contained some information about a summer program she would be attending that would place her near where he lives. That is what she was communicating to him, and that is what she wanted him to notice because she'd like to visit him while there and have him act his role as her fairy godmother, showing her a good time, exposing her to experiences that just plain seem weird with someone you can call "father." But that's not what my friend chose as the focus of his reply, which he CC:ed to me. In that reply he challenged my knowledge of grammar.

The details are irrelevant. The truth of the matter is that he was both right and wrong as a linguist would see the issue. Prescriptive grammar is one thing. The "living language" concept is another. As noted, my friend is the ally of chaos, and so am I, but in different ways. He sees chaos as an end unto itself. While I'm certainly not the type who has 7 suits, one for each day of the week, all of the same color, I do understand the difference between rules and guidelines and when either, respectively, should be followed. I appreciate chaos, but I also appreciate and acknowledge circumstances in which invoking a chaotic philosophy is not appropriate.

In short, he undermined the advice I gave my daughter and in so doing drew her in to what up to this moment had been a running, intellectually stimulating, if somewhat silly, argument between friends on various aspects of what it means to speak and write properly. He made her question my knowledge, made her question the advice she was given, made her look at her father as something less than an authority on the subject for which she had always sought his advice. Put another way, he, without malicious intent, attacked the one thing, the one unique thing I have with my daughter that she does not have and never could have had with any other familial relationship. He made me feel stupid and unworthy.

It doesn't help my state of mind to know he was wrong, utterly wrong, on the specific issue in a prescriptive context. I could cite, chapter and verse, details from every grammar manual considered standard today, and while they might not agree on small details, all would note that the advice I gave, while not grounded in a good example (I wrote the critique from work in haste due to the close deadline and did not thoroughly think through my example), was nonetheless fundamentally sound in principle. But that's really not the point. It's not about me or him or anyone being correct. It is, for me, about the way he approached it and how it has made me feel as a result, about he undermined the trust (yes trust, the trust my daughter had in me to give her proper advice as she makes these important decisions) between my daughter and me.

What's yet again even worse is I know, firmly, that he has no clue what he just did, how he made me feel, how he may have made her question who she trusts. That infuriates me more than anything, the fact he opened his virtual mouth without having such considerations.

Finally ... I know this is long. I know few will read it through to the end. I know it's nothing but personal whining that really has little place on a public discussion forum. If you made it this far I both salute you and pity you for enduring me. I had to let out my frustration somewhere, and I felt it was better to do so here than to fire off the e-mail (or worse yet, wake his ass up in the middle of the night and unleash) I have wanted to send (and half-composed).

If those of you who braved this opus have any thoughts, I'd me most thankful to hear them. If not, thanks for indulging me.

[Wonk]

1. Nobody is perfect.

Imho, taking every piece of advice offered by someone with a grain of salt is a good thing, even if they're someone you deeply trust, even if they're your dad. This e-mail exchange likely doesn't seem as big of a deal to her or your friend as it does to you, so going of half-cocked on either of them wouldn't be wise. I'd say sleep on it for now, once the adrenaline stops flowing from your initial upset.

Of course, take my advice with a grain of salt as well ;-)

[some guy]

2. I'm sorry for your pain

:hug:

I would advise letting the anger and hurt go as soon as possible; then responding to both your daughter and your friend, citing why you chose the essay critiques you did, pointing out that you specifically tailored your critique toward the intended audience of the essay.

Close with asking your friend not to challenge your comments to your daughter; that while you may be willing to debate your critical analysis of her essay with him, you desire to not wage a tug of war debate "in front" of her.

This might be best done in two emails; the first, with cites, o both of them, and the second as a separate email to your friend alone.

It's impossible to replace old friends, because they're the ones who know and share your history. Try to find a way to help him realize and help to mend his error in judgement.

Congratulations on having such a terrific daughter.

:hug:

[LaurenG]

3. I see that you have a wonderful daughter and friend

Teach your daughter how to deal with criticism and how to deal honestly and lovingly with a friend while disagreeing.

Take the high road but be very honest. Explain that you felt hurt but that it wasn't the end of the world. You can trust your friend with your child because he loves both of you as well. Do NOT let ego ruin anything. Admit whatever feelings you have, keep the focus on how you feel and allow your super smart child to decide how to go with this. Don't make her choose sides. Remember that no one agrees 100% of the time and I think the perspective should be that you just don't agree with him. No big deal.

Don't worry, your daughter will always love and admire you. As a child I thought my dad knew everything and when I found that he didn't I realized that I still trusted him more than any other man in the world. It was good to see he too had clay feet.


Hang in there an let love guide you not ego. :hug:

[Pushed To The Left]

4. I would recommend just talking to him about what happened and

how it made you feel after you've had a chance to cool down. It sounds like he might not have any idea that he upset you. I would communicate with him and make sure he knows how strongly you feel about this and why it bothered you as much as it did. It sounds like you two are very good friends, so if he knows how you feel, he will know not to cross that line again.

[petronius]

5. I guess I have a few thoughts, the first of which being that you should

definitely not fire off that e-mail or make the angry phone call. As I read the story, it seems to me that you are very upset over what I as an outsider would consider a very trivial matter - you offered commentary on your daughter's essay, and your friend offered conflicting advice. It seems that your reaction is disproportionate to the offense, unless there was something personal about how your friend wrote his comments. Perhaps this long-running friendly argument over grammar isn't as light-hearted as you've led yourself to believe?

I'm neither a parent nor a psychologist, so I'm basically full of crap here, but I wonder if your reaction isn't so much that your friend undermined you with your daughter, but that you are feeling a fear that her growing up and making such significant changes in her life are going to pull the two of you apart? Perhaps you're also worried about her at a time when the decisions she's making will have lifelong ramifications at the same time when she is beginning to really explore her independence. In other words, maybe your anger isn't about your friend at all - your daughter is fully entering adulthood and you are loathe to reduce your guidance and oversight?

FWIW, my advice is to let it go, or at most have a chat with your friend in the future when the emotions have cooled. Your daughter will decide what advice is best for her, and you've obviously raised her to make competent and appropriate choices. (As for writing advice: considering that this is one of the most well-written posts I've seen on DU and I don't recall any that have held my interest for so many <page down>s, I'm pretty sure your daughter won't lose faith in your insights...)

[VenusRising]

6. OK, take a deep breath.

The fact that you are so upset is a testimony to how much you love and treasure the relationship you have with your daughter. That in itself is so precious.

This whole thing seems like a miscommuntication. Maybe he didn't realize that all she wanted him to really know about was that she would be in his area soon. Maybe he mistook her email as a request for input. If you really believe that this was not maliciously intended, then you should be thankful that your daughter has another wonderful adult who cares about her education. I am sure that your daughter is going to continue to trust you on these sort of issues because of the bond you describe. Part of growing up is talking to adults who are not your parents to get outside advice. She is a smart girl, and you should count on her to make the best decision for her based on all the information. I really think that she will continue to trust you on issues of this matter regardless of what she was told by someone else. One email cannot erase the years of trust that you have built together.

As for your friend, I would talk to him and tell him how his actions made you feel. If he was acting in good faith, he will at least see your position. It's okay to be a protective father when it comes to your daughter.

:hug:

[Dangerously Amused]

7. How do you want to look back on this incident ten years from now?

As the argument over grammar which destroyed, or negatively altered three beautiful and successful symbiotic relationships? Or as a silly argument wherein you and your dear friend agreed to disagree and allowed your brilliant daughter to make her own decision without fear of alienation or judgment from either proponent?

[Guava Jelly]

8. oh you and your logic!!

:7

[zanne]

9. Put tape on your mouth. Shackle your hands so you can't type.

Do what you have to do so you don't say something you'll regret. I'm just taking a stab in the dark but I'm guessing that what you're feeling is betrayal. This is a very touchy subject and it's subjective as hell, but I recommend that you do whatever you have to do to preserve your friendship (and your daughter's friendship) with your friend. I'm a hothead and I have lots of experience in this area, so please believe me when I say that angry words will be regretted. I wish you all the best. Your daughter sounds like a jewel, and you don't sound so bad yourself.

[Laelth]

10. Um ...

... sounds like all you needed to do was vent. Hope you're feeling better.

:toast:

-Laelth

[mikeytherat]

11. Write out everything you'd like to say, all your thoughts on the matter,

no matter how negative or hurtful they might seem. Then place this prose in a drawer, put Frankie on your lap, breathe deep and relax. Let the letter sit until the next morning, Frankie back on lap, deep breath, and re-read what you have written. More often than not, you will tear up the letter and move on. The important thing is that you got it all out of you, and were able to re-think it before sending it on.

Best luck!

mikey_the_rat

[Connonym]

12. Definitely don't do anything right away

I hope writing here made you feel better. I would guess your friend meant no harm or disrespect. As others have said, it would be tragic to let this ruin your relationship. Step back, take some time and think before you do anything. Your feelings are valid but let time give you a little perspective.

BTW, you should be very proud of your daughter and the relationship you've been able to form with her. Women who have good relationships with their father tend to be more self-confident and also tend to get involved in healthier romantic relationships.

[rug]

13. Points of grammar unravel all that is good in the human heart.

You have much more with your daughter than gerunds and participles.

[astral]

14. Let it ALL go and let your daughter make up her own mind

I too, saw absolutely nothing grammatically wrong with your post, which to me says you and your daughter probably have a good rapport as to what is proper writing. If she's read alot of well-written books, it will be instinctive to her what is correct and what is not.

She'll probably go with your guidance anyways over his, but then, if she takes some of his advice over yours don't take it so damn personal! She is going to be influenced by alot of other people in her life besides you, now as she's going on to college. She is who she is, and that has everything to do with you. Your extensive detail about how she hasn't lived with you all this time is obviously part of the story in your mind, and so this "stuff" eating at you is about alot of stuff that has nothing to do with your friend. It would be great to write it all down, just let the pen / keyboard FLOW, then put it away to review with a fresher mind. You may have a lot to learn about --- ***YOU***.

It's okay.

[RoyGBiv]

15. Well ...

I regret having posted this. After a night of sleep, it all seemed more than a bit silly, at least too silly to go off on what amounted to such a lengthy rant in a public forum. And while several of the comments in the thread are spot-on with good advice, I chose not to reply in the hope the thread would simply sink and die.

But it hasn't, so I'll offer this.

I didn't consciously realize it at the time I was writing, but more to this story exists than what I revealed here. It's there, between the lines, but hard for an outsider to see. Some of it is about my own self-image, a latent sense of being a failure in my life because of talents I have that remain unused while all my friends have risen to the tops of their fields and are doing important things. Another part is a rather personal argument my friend and I had over that very issue in the last month. (In truth it wasn't so much an argument as a pointed and scathing indictment of where I am and have been in life, part of it self-inflicted, part of it not, and it was left open-ended without much in the way of emotional resolution.) And, part of it is the often conflicting goals of not wanting my daughter to see me as a failure while at the same time making sure she knows the path I took through life was a hard one that I would not recommend she follow. I told my friend that I had only succeeded at one thing in life, and that was having played a part in raising such a wonderful daughter and having developed a special relationship with her despite her mother's attempts, be they conscious or subconscious, to prevent that from happening.

My friend's response to my critique of my daughter's piece implicitly underlined the discussion we had about this and by extension brought all these other issues to the front of my mind, most notably the fact he is a "professional" while I am not. If you could read his response and had been privy to the argument we had, that would be clear, but since no one here can or was, that's not possible. In summary, I was not dealing with it well last night when I composed the OP, and I unfairly drew others into the situation, I guess because subconsciously I knew I was over-reacting, and I wanted someone to tell me that while at the same time venting my frustrations.

As an aside, about that original post, I scanned it just now and found a half a dozen grammatical errors and several typos. I had to laugh at that.

Thanks for your thoughts. I can't honestly say I'm over it, because I'm not and won't be until I deal with my own self-image issues. I am, however, over it enough not to allow myself to draw it out into something it shouldn't be.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

16. You hold your daughter very close to your heart.

She, being the woman you describe, holds you very close to her heart. Your friend is as close as a friend can be. Stop.

He challenged your knowledge of grammar in an essay of your daughter's. Was it malicious, or meant to portray you in a negative light? I would suspect not, given the fact that he CC:ed you in his response to her. Was she slighting you in submitting the essay to your friend? I doubt that... knowing the strength of the relationship as she did, this seemed a perfect opportunity to ensure her success through utilizing the two most brilliant men that she knew. Best use of available resources. Smart girl.

The treasure that you hold -- the relationship with your daughter -- is based on trust, respect and admiration. This, I would gather, is also a treasure, and/or foundation, for your daughter. Based on the solid grounding that you have been so instrumental in developing, her decision to validate her essay's worth was not a slam to you, but a logical step to secure her right of passage into a future you both have envisioned.

Your best friend is probably chuckling knowing that there would be some rancor associated with his critique. You trust him implicitly, or he would never qualify as "fairy godmother". Had he observed a friendly silence -- and here is the important part -- if he thought there were improvements to be made to the essay, he would have failed the trust and esteem with which both you and your daughter hold in him. This would have been a tragedy. Silence, between friends, oft times leads to misplaced trust.

Having your daughter test the waters of adulthood by seizing an opportunity to maximize her potential benefits, could be cause for cursing the fact she is so astute. Having your friend relay what he thought was the best composition, could be construed as an attempt to undermine you. However, your thoughtful introspective speaks volumes about what you know in your heart.

It's hell to get old. EDIT: I'm gonna have to delegate, 'cause my fingers and words arrived about an hour late. May you find peace in your world and keep love in your heart.

[idgiehkt]

17. I think it's awesome that you know what you know about yourself

that is incredibly rare, that someone could sit down and describe in detail why they are upset, and that it is irrational, but that it still just IS, and this is how they feel, and that they felt incredibly threatened because of what the friend did and why.

I can totally understand why it is you feel you would trash a friendship over this. I have been doing this kind of thing all my life...there are certain triggers I have and if someone gets anywhere near one of them, which my family does frequently, I tend to lose it. I'm not exaggerating, it's especially bad with my sister...it is dangerous for me to be around her because she absolutely lays on my panic button in that respect and I hit her once over a year ago and I'm certain if it happens again I'll end up in jail over it. Anyway, I know what it's like to have one of those primal triggers hit, one of my favorite sayings is "don't just do something, sit there." At least give yourself the opportunity to handle the situation in a better way than you would if you reacted out of the extremely intense emotion you feel about it now.

But you are probably in the one percentile of humans (god forgive me for saying this, but especially males, when it comes to how clear you are on what you are feeling and why. I know you will handle it fine, and you will see that your relationship with your daughter is not as fragile as you feel, nor is it bases on something so superficial as grammar. It's based on love, and that isn't a bond that anyone can threaten that easily.