Why do they implant a pacemaker into a 87years old woman???

[MissHoneychurch]

Why???? Why do they take that person the chance to die a peaceful death in the future? That she has to die from the failure of another organ and has most likely to suffer more than if her heart stops beating.

It makes me mad.

:mad:

[graywarrior]

1. Was it her choice? Maybe she wanted to hike a trail in the mountains.

[MissHoneychurch]

2. That woman is my grandmother

and she has dementia which is getting worse and worse. And she is almost blind. Believe me, she won't hike any mountains

[Radio_Lady]

7. Different story. I see what you mean now. Did your mother/father help make that decision?

We had a lot of difficulty with my husband's sister making the decision to put my mother-in-law on hydrodialysis (water induced) when her kidneys failed, and they could no longer sustain her on hemodialysis (blood induced). She lasted a few more painful months and died at 88.

But the woman was NOT demented and my sister-in-law felt it was the right thing to do. I think I would have decided differently, but I was not in charge, nor was my husband.

Sorry for your pain.

[MissHoneychurch]

10. Nobody in the family was asked

My father (her son) died 5 1/2 years ago. My aunt (her daughter) was not informaed about that operation.

[graywarrior]

9. Oh, well that makes a difference.

My 89 year old MIL refused to have that surgery, even tho she was still right of mind and active. She didn't see the point of it.

[MissHoneychurch]

13. My grandmother is not in the place to make that decision

she says yes to everything a doctor or "young" (what is young to the age of 87) man. She is still allowed to make her own decision even though she can't make them really.

[graywarrior]

18. So, I get it. Yep, that sucks.

My MIL had fantastic medical coverage from her late husband's city job. It was like having a credit balance of $100,000. The doctors went wild over her. Every test, every prescription they could give her, they did. She ended up flusing them down the toilet most of the time. But she got them because "the doctor gave them to me." Oy.

[hippywife]

19. I'm not sure if it works the same way there as it does here but,

if her dementia is that advancedm,it might be best if someone, such as your aunt, has power of attorney or gaurdianship to make those decisions for her.

I really hope she recovers from her surgery and does well. :hug:

[MissHoneychurch]

21. To get that the guardianship they have to check on my grandma

and ask her questions. It isn't easy to get the guardianship. And she does have good days in between.

I hope also she recovers. The only plus that came out of it that I talked to my aunt the first time in years

[Radio_Lady]

3. This is a decision made with her, her family, and her doctor. There are quite a few

active seniors at 87. I'd have to know a lot about the person to decide.

I do have an 83 (almost 84) years old aunt who has a pacemaker, installed when she was 81 or 82. Where do you draw the line?

Maybe you'll feel different when (if) you are in your 80s. Doctors are supposed to keep life going.

[MissHoneychurch]

5. The decision was made without the family

her daughter (my aunt) was informed AFTER the implanted the pacemaker. Read post #2 to understand why I don't think it was the right decision.

[Radio_Lady]

12. Sorry. I didn't know the particulars when I first posted. I think you're right.

What kind of a hospital would NOT consult family? Was she being treated for something else?

[MissHoneychurch]

15. She was commited to the hospital because she fainted

which isn't unusual for her. They found out about the heart and made the doctors made the decision without consulting my aunt. Who called the hospital DAILY!!!

[billyskank]

6. She IS her family

[MissHoneychurch]

26. Thanks billy

:hug:

[Blue-Jay]

4. maybe to keep her alive?

:shrug:

[MissHoneychurch]

8. She had slight hearth rythm disturbance

don't ask me if that is the correct word but I believe you know what I mean. She is my grandmother. To waht extend do you have to keep an old person alive if her life is coming to an end over the next years. Does it really make sense to keep people alive on every cost???

[Radio_Lady]

14. "Does it really make sense to keep people alive on every cost???"

This question is being asked over and over as we reach into more and more "technologically proficient" medicine.

I wish I had a good answer to your question. I don't.

Peace.

Radio Lady in Oregon

[MissHoneychurch]

24. I believe in letting people die with dignity

and not try to keep them alive at any cost just because it is possible.

ANd yes, I do believe in medically assisted suicide

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. If it was her choice, then let it be. If they forced it into against her will,

then sue.

[MissHoneychurch]

17. Can you really say that a dement woman can make her own choices?

It is a really tough question. My aunt (her daughter), my one cousin, my mother and I had all the same reaction: WHY?? My cousin is a physio therapist, she works with old people.

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. No, I can't. But you didn't mention anything about dementia in the OP.

So, how should I know?

Now that I do know, I agree with you - the doctors shouldn't have done anything without consulting the family, unless the laws in your state would still define your grandmother as "mentally aware enough" to make her own decisions.

Doctors are often in too much of a hurry to "preserve" life at all costs, even if the life isn't worth much. Thankfully, that position is changing greatly as people are demanding more and more for quality of life versus life at any cost.

I'm sorry for the suffering you are going through - dealing with nursing homes, doctors, and the illness of grandma must be a rough ride.

[MissHoneychurch]

37. I wrote the op without much thinking

I should have been more clearly there.

Thanks Rabrrr :hug:

[hippywife]

16. I work in a retirement center

and it really isn't that uncommon for someone of that age to have a pacemaker implanted. I know someone who had one implanted at 97. It just depends on the overall physical stability of the patient, I think.

I hope your gran does better. Who knows, the improved bloodflow from the pacemaker may help the dementia issue maybe a little bit. :hug: :hug:

[MissHoneychurch]

20. But why not talk to the family as well

we all want her best but we don't think she is in the position to make the best decision for herself. I honestly don't believe in putting pacemakers in old people. The physical stability is n't the best anymore. She has one of those roller things to help her walking. Her knees are kaput, she has stability problems when she has to walk without help.

Thanks for the hug. :hug:

[hippywife]

22. See my post #19

regarding these medical decisions.

I miss my own departed gran lots so I'm happy to give up hugs for yours. :hug: :hug: :hug:

On edit: Never mind! I see you did and responded.

[MissHoneychurch]

27. I miss my father as well

but we let him go. He had a brain tumor and there was no chance of healing. We thought about chemo but decided against it. He died in peace.

[hippywife]

29. It's always a very hard decision

when it's someone you love so dearly. With this pacemaker, your gran may have a few more years in her for you to spend loving her. I hope for both of your sakes she has many more good days than bad.

[MissHoneychurch]

31. Thank you

I hope so too. But as I know her I doubt it. There are so many things she can't do herself anymore, daily hygenic things that I don't believe the pacemaker will give her much for a better life. Do you understand me?

:hug:

[hippywife]

35. I understand all too well

as I see it everyday. Not knowing her abilities, I can only hope the best for you both. :hug:

[MissHoneychurch]

39. Thank you hippywife

my aunt called nursing homes today, we will have to put her in one. The ladies who help her now twice a day aren't able to do it much longer. She just has a normal bed, nothing to make it easier for the helping hands. She isn't able anymore (actually hasn't been since some time) to live by herself.

[hippywife]

42. I'm glad your aunt is

considering you in these decisions. There's something really special about the relationship between grandmother and grand-daughter. Hopefully, she will have an easy transition with those who love her nearby to support her.
:hug:

[SKKY]

23. Why wouldn't you? I don't understand why we would give...

...an elderly person different medical treatment than a younger person. Does she not 'rank' a pacemaker?

[MissHoneychurch]

25. Because age is the end of the life

we all have to die and I do believe in dying with dignity and not keeping people alive just because it is possible.

[SKKY]

28. Ok, fair enough, so you must be against stem-cell research then...

...since we would be keeping people alive with diseases that would otherwise kill them simply because we can.

[MissHoneychurch]

30. No I am not against stem-cell research

The whole topic is more complicated than to discuss it in two sentences. But I really don't see the sense in putting pacemakers in old people who came to the end of their lives. We can't keep the death away forever and with the pacemaker you take their chance away to die peacefully because their heart isn't allowed to stop.

[SKKY]

32. But, if everything else is in working order, why not give...

...the heart a little help? I really don't see the ethical dilemma here.

[MissHoneychurch]

34. Because not everything else is in working order

she is almost blind, she has to be washed and cleaned, she is dement. Does that explains it a bit more why I am not happy about it. And in case you haven't read the other replies, it is about my grandmother.

And no bad feelings here.

[crim son]

36. In the case of my grandmother, she might have at least

ten more years to live. Most people probably would not but we do not accept very readily the idea that one person "deserves" drastic and expensive treatment while another does not. It seems like a fine idea until our son gets terminal cancer, then suddenly we change our minds.

[MissHoneychurch]

38. My father died about 5 years ago

he had a brain tumor. We let him die in peace without any live preserving treatments. So I know where I stand. I know I didn't write very much about the other health issues about my grandmother but she isn't the most healthiest woman anymore. She is almost blind and more and more dement. 10 years can be a long time with health issues like that.

[crim son]

40. It's so true. My grandmother lost her mobility last year

but in every other respect she is fit. She doesn't have arthritis or any pain; rather it's shortness of breath which makes even walking to the door a tiring prospect. She hasn't had any major diseases, ever and was still very physically active at eighty. In her case I'd say the pacemaker would be a good choice. My FIL was a depressed man who never left his house. He was overweight and exercised very little. Furthermore, his entire family had died (or has died since) from cancer. Also, he never had health insurance and rarely worked enough to pay into our SS system. Therefore when he became ill from prostate cancer I thought for the first time about the costs, both in human and monetary terms, of treating somebody who would almost certainly die one way or another within a year or two.

His life was prolonged for five years but he was in pain for three of them. At the end his body and bones were riddled with cancer. But would I have spoken up and told the family that I thought treatment should cease and that he should be allowed to die with dignity? Hell no.

[MissHoneychurch]

41. My aunt told me today again

that certain people in my family didn't agree to the decision my brother and I made with our father. They didn't understand that we found it rather more important to not let him suffer and to die with dignity than to try anything if there was no chance at all that it would help him. I haven't regreted that decision a second. Yes, I miss my father and I wish he would be still around but he never would have wanted to suffer so yes, we made the correct desicion. We decided like he would have himself.

It is very hard to make the right decision. Nobody can make them for you. There will be always be someone who is against it. But if you are responsible and have to make the decision make it how you feel and what you think is right.

[crim son]

43. Exactly. There are also the ill person's wishes to consider.

After the Terry Schiavo debacle, my parents called me and my three sisters to inform us that they did not wish to be put on life support if ever they feel into a vegetative state. Glad you called! I told them. The same goes for me. Somebody will most certainly object but I will do what I belive is right.

[MissHoneychurch]

44. I will fill out a living will

I have the papers at home already, I just need to take a pencil and fill it out.

I know my mom wouldn't want to put on life support (heck she wants to get burried in an anonym grave) and I always carry my organ spending pass with me.

[slj0101]

45. Ageist much?

:eyes:

[trof]

47. I see you're a bit of a newbie, so I won't get on your case...much.

It's not ageism.
We're all gonna die eventually.
How we go matters.
Better peacefully and without pain.
And hopefully without knowledge or our imminent expiration.
I'd prefer to just not wake up one morning.

In a woman that age, with the medical problems she has, it really makes no sense to mechanically postpone the inevitable.

MissHoneychurch has every right to be outraged.
I would be too.

Anyway, welcome to DU.
:hi:
Try to cut some slack in your rush to judgement next time.
Thanks.

[crispini]

48. Mmm, of all the arguments for reading the entire thread before you post...

here's a really good example....

[slj0101]

56. Yeah, I fucked up, didn't I?

My humble apologies to the OP.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

46. It sounds like the whole familiy is in agreement

so start the proceedings to get your aunt declared as guardian with power of attorney.

There's nothing you can do about this incident. You're not going to convince a hospital to remove the pacemaker. Let it go.

But prepare for future decisions.

And congratulations on getting back in touch with your aunt.

[trof]

49. My great aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 85.

She was sharp as a tack, but I was her 'next of kin'.
"What now?" I asked the doctor.
"Lets ask her." he said.

He explained to both of us that cancer in patients of her age are extremely slow growing.
He recommended no treatment.
We agreed.

She died in her sleep a few months later.
The ubiquitous 'heart failure'.
AKA just old and finally worn out.

Yeah, I'd be pissed too that they did that to your grandmother.

[SPKrazy]

50. I Doubt They Would Have Done It If She Weren't In Pretty Good Health

peaceful death can still happen with a pacemaker. It won't keep her heart beating forever. Just keep it beating a rhythm that can sustain her life.

:pals:

[Nikia]

51. Such things are usually up to the individual. Dementia complicates things

I think that the whole issue is complicated.
There is the issue of whether she is at the end of her life or not. For some people, naturual end of life is 100+. For some people, naturual end of life is under 50. The doctors may have assessed the condition of her other organs in determining this.
You also mention her other health problems like limited mobility and blindness. We accept that older people might want to die because of these problems. When a young person gets these problems from an accident or a non terminal illness though, we usually encourage them to live. My husband's father is having health problems and has been declared terminal and has refused treatment that might help him. My husband mentioned the pain that he is in, which is why he has signed a "do not recesitate" statement. The pain he is experiencing is due to his leg amputations. I mentioned to my husband that if either of us was in an accident and lost our legs that we would probably have the same pain too, but it would not be an excuse for us to want to die and refuse treatment for a different health problem. I think that it is complicated though and can see both sides. I guess that it is ultimately up to the individual. No one should be told that they should die because of a disability.
I agree that dementia makes it difficult to know what she would really want. I don't know how bad her dementia is and whether she is capable or not of knowing what is happening to her.
I hope that she recovers and can spend some quality time with you and her daughter.

[ismnotwasm]

52. If there is no power of attorney, and she consents

They can and will. If she signed as a "full code" they will code here as well. That includes all the bells and whistles including intubation---unspecified otherwise. Despite the pacemaker, it's not too late to talk to her about what she wants.

It's a terrible ethical dilemma at times. We've kept people end stage liver failure people alive-- coded them, intubated them even though the ultimate outcome--death--was only delayed. Occasionally it's was the patient's choice but sometimes they has lost the capacity to change their minds about their wants, or family members couldn't let go.

A social worker should have been contacted at the very least and a family conference called. This is bullshit for a patient with known dementia. In fact maybe the family can demand one.

[wildhorses]

53. oh honey--i have read enough of this thread to know that what

you need is :hug:

i am so sorry you and your granma and the rest of your family are going through this. :hug:

[bettyellen]

54. if your grandma has "good days" then you OWE IT TO HER to find out

what she wants and follow through. stop projecting what you feel because of your dad and find out what she would want.
if she can't have this conversation, then she IS incompetent, and it's not so hard to get that in writing from a geriatric psychiatrist. and more importantly they will help you get a healthcare proxy, advanced directive, etc. i believe the proxy would automatically go to the child when a spouse has died, but they need to file a DNR (do not resuscitate) if they truly want it.
otherwise, you're on the road to breathing and/or feeding tubes, so your aunt and you better do something if she really is that weak.
good luck.

[Hotler]

55. easier to bump-start, kinda like a motorcycle

:evilgrin:

[AirmensMom]

57. Aw, MissHC, I'm sorry.

:hug: