Christian DU'ers - How is it like to argue with fundies over the bible?

[Taverner]

When in all reality, the New Testament has God (aka Jesus) as a socialist communitarian who advocates that the last shall be first, and the first shall be last?

How do they defend their "Supply Side Jesus" against the biblical one?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. they quote the 2 lines about abomination and gays.

to any question about the bible.

[Lars39]

2. They haul out 'the poor shall always be with us' to excuse their behavior.

[Taverner]

3. To me that would translate as "we'll always have work to do" then

[Lars39]

5. Me, too, but they see it more as futility.

'Why keep trying to help if poverty won't ever disappear?' kind of thing.

[Critters2]

35. That's how all the good commentaries see it. nt

[noonwitch]

4. I don't really argue with them, we discuss scripture and different interpretations

I have a coworker who is a fundamentalist and we talk about the Bible a lot, but I know it a lot better than she does. Her kid goes to christian school, so she shows me her kid's homework sometimes and we comment on it.

Most of the time, fundamentalists are surprised when you do know the Bible well, and with people who study it a lot, I can have some excellent conversations about various things. I steer clear of things that will lead to arguments on the whole, although I will speak up when they quote the whole thing about homosexuality being "an abomination before the Lord". My comment to that is usually "doesn't that come from the same part of the Bible that tells us to stone urban rape victims who don't scream?".

[Midlodemocrat]

6. Most of the fundies I know argue in favor of the Old Testament

as a basis/background for the New Testament. So, it's essentially ridiculous to argue with them about it.

As a Catholic, I was raised that the New Testament was a New Covenant, kind of a 'do-over' and that the wrathful, vengeful God of the OT was replaced with the kindler, gentler, Jesus. That is what I believe anyway. I don't believe in a fire and brimstone God.

My mom used to say all the time "God wants us to be happy", in much the same way as parents want their children to be happy.

[LaurenG]

21. That is so true!

they love that hell fire I'm gonna mess you up god. I think that they believe they are horrid people and use the old testament in the same way some cultures self flagellate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Not so fast--I just finished a year-long course on the Old Testament

(part of Episcopal-sponsored course for lay people) and its' NOT all hellfire and brimstone. In fact, the whole "wrath of God" stuff seems as if it was put in retroactively to justify the atrocities the Hebrews committed when conquering Canaan.

The prophets are huge on social justice, visions of peace, and living wisely and frugally.

A lot of people who go and on about the "wrathful God of the Old Testament" are cherry-picking as much as the fundies do. They've probably never actually read the Old Testament.

Where do you think the Jewish tradition of social activism came from? From the prophets.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Since fundie preachers don't necessarily have to take any training and

don't have to follow any specific schedule of Scripture readings (unlike people in the Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran end of the spectrum, who use the standard three-year lectionary), they just pick and choose any old Bible verse that they like and preach on it ad nauseam.

Many fundamentalists may not even know about the peace and justice passages in the Bible, because their preacher keeps harping on the war and hatred ones.

[Midlodemocrat]

32. My point was that the fire and brimstone God was a product of the

Old Testament, not the New. I didn't say it was all Fire and Brimstone, just that the wrathful God was the Old Testament God, not the New.

Leviticus being a prime example of cherry picking, it's interesting to see how many fundies say things like God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, while eating a BLT or sleeping with their menstruating wife.

[Critters2]

36. Thank you!

I get tired of progressive Christians who know at least as little about the OT as fundies do. I preach the OT all the time, so they can see what it really says!

[Midlodemocrat]

37. I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

I was saying that the fire and brimstone God was a product of the Old Testament, not the New. I never said that the entire OT was filled with wrath of God stuff.

[Critters2]

38. I've still gotta disagree with it being "a product of the OT"

I see much more about peace and justice in the OT. Most of the nastiness is things people do, not so much God. And when God is angry, it's about injustices. Two of the prophets say Sodom and Gommorah were punished for inhospitality, not sexual misbehavior. It's injustice--unkindness, inhospitality, selfishness, etc--that makes the OT God angry.

[Midlodemocrat]

39. But my point is, you don't see that side of God in the NT.

[Critters2]

41. Sure ya do.

From Matthew 25: (quoting Jesus)

1Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[Dukkha]

57. so the New Testament with Jesus is basically

God under new management

[Bassic]

64. As a Catholic myself,

that is also what I was taught. To this day I cringe whenever I hear someone who proudly says that he or she is "God fearing", as if this should be positive.

[zanne]

7. Can't you just make things up?

Like "And God sayeth 'The cocoa bean is holy, as is the potato fried in oil'. How would they know it wasn't true? They can't memorize the entire bible.

[hfojvt]

13. they would just ask for a chapter and verse

and a true fundy has a Bible with them at all times to look it up.

Back in my college days I was gonna go the opposite route. I was gonna memorize some stupid or nasty Bible verses. Then whenever the person I argued with said "Well, the Bible says ..." I could answer back "Well, the Bible says: "They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." Joshua 6:21 or "Well, the Bible says: "Each silver plate weighed a hundred and thirty sheckels and each sprinkling bowl seventy sheckels." Numbers 7:85
At which point they might say "What does that have to do with anything?" and I would say "Exactly, just because the Bible says something does not mean it is relevant to this argument."

But by disrespecting their Word of God, you certainly are never going to convince them that Christians should vote Democratic. Their primary concern is not going to be the poor, who they help on an individual level, but always know some people who take advantage of charity. Their primary concern is the helpless babies who are being murdered.

[sakabatou]

8. Here's a whole site of them

Fundies say the Darndest Things

[myrna minx]

29. Holy buckets!

I got through about half of their "top 100" and I just couldn't go on. :scared: I wish I has some brain bleach after reading those crazed posts.

[LibertyLover]

30. That was one of the more painful things I've read in a long time

Batshit crazy doesn't begin to describe some of those people.

[Bassic]

65. Holy crap!

Thanks for the link. It's sure to be a hit around here. :D

[azmouse]

9. I like to stir them up by telling them the Rapture is a lie

started in the mid 1800's by the Millerites. It has no Biblical basis. :evilgrin:

[zanne]

10. Do tell me about the Millerites.

And don't leave out any details, azmouse. I especially want to hear about their monkey-herding techniques. And their expertise at scrapbooking.

[azmouse]

12. ???

[zanne]

52. You mean the Millerites were real?

I thought you were making it up!

[azmouse]

55. Would I do that to you?

Nah! They were real.

This is some info on the groups that kicked off the whole Rapture thing. The Millerites were misled just like so many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

[Taverner]

11. Ahhh a Preterist!

Most Christians until the Millerites believed Revelations was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

Even the old Anglican hymn "Jerusalem" makes reference to it

[azmouse]

18. I had to look up 'preterist'.

Never heard of that before. Sounds too complicated. I prefer my religion to be simple.
Jesus was the Son of God. He died for my sins. I try to live my life the best I can by what I understand Jesus said. I believe in God and trust Him. Beyond that, all it's all out of my control.

A long time ago I went to a fundie church. I almost got brainwashed by their twisted beliefs. I thank God that I got away from that. It scares me to think how close I came to following that doctrine.

[Taverner]

47. Well basically a preterist is one who thinks that all things described in the bible

Have already happened. Most preterists think Revelations is talking about Rome's destruction of Jerusalem in 90 A.D. and that "The Beast" is code for Nero.

This was the dominant belief on Revelations until the 1800's.

[azmouse]

49. Interesting.

I've never paid much attention to Revelation. It never made much sense. Seems the fundies pay too much attention to it and not enough to the words of Jesus.

[Critters2]

40. Actually started by John Nelson Darby

The Millerites got it from him. But I'm careful in my criticism of the Millerites. I did my clinical at an SDA hospital, and found the SDAs some of the most gentle and decent people I've ever known. They were completely respectful of my tradition, so I am of theirs.

[azmouse]

42. I've just always thought it a shame that people

got misled by false doctrine. I feel sorry for them because I know how easy it can be to fall for it.
I'm not critical of any group for that reason. I just wish it was possible to show believers in the Rapture that it isn't true. Just do a search for 'no rapture'. There are many websites that can explain why it's false and do it so much better than I.

[Critters2]

43. I find it best not to argue doctrine. Just be kind to people

Sometimes that's enough to get 'em to wonder what it is you believe, and can lead to real dialogue.

[EstimatedProphet]

14. My experience is that they usually don't/can't interpret the passages

They just read the passages as literal, with no nuance or metaphor. There's no way to discuss meaning like that, because for them the meaning is exactly what it says. This is IMO ridiculous - EVERYONE uses metaphor, so it is asinine to believe that the Bible wouldn't use it either.

[slj0101]

19. Unless it's one of the prophets, or the book of Revelation.

All of the sudden, shit gets REAL metaphorical to them. Never mind that most biblical scholars agree that Revelation was intended to be a look into the IMMEDIATE future of the Christian faith.

[EstimatedProphet]

48. Seriously, not to a lot of them

They think Revelations is supposed to be a literal description, as if it were read out of a newspaper.

[Redbear]

15. Like, banging your head against a wall

The first thing you to get them to admit is that their interpretation of what the Bible says is not the same thing as what it actually says.

The most hilarious part is how they want a strict, literal interp of verses involving homosexuality, women, etc. but they want a much broader interp of verses involving peace, money, equality etc.


Most of the debates about money go much like the wars going on about John Edward's house (ARRGGGH!):


"Your saying Jesus wants us all to live in huts and have no possessions. You don't live in hut, your a hypocrite."

"No. Jesus says that what we treasure shows where our heart is. Having indoor plumbing and air conditioning doesn't reflect a heart set on something else besides God. On the other hand, having a 10,000 square foot house is pretty good evidence that money and fancy things are way up high on your priority list."


Jesus was too radical for most people 2000 years ago. He is too radical for most people today.

[youthere]

16. This is what it's like...

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

ETA: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Orsino]

17. How can you argue with someone who hates gays, loves war...

...and whose god keeps a private torture chamber? It doesn't matter what logical fallacies you catch 'em in--that much hate could never be employed in any worthwhile endeavor. Best to hope that their inherent laziness and sense of entitlement keeps them safely in front of their TV sets, scarfing Chee-tos.

[LaurenG]

20. It's simple, just get another contradicting verse and lay it on them

The bible is so easy to manipulate, as you can tell by how some people twist it. There is a wide variety of conflicting information especially between the old and new testament. There is a verse for everyone.

[Arugula Latte]

23. Isn't this like Santa Clause believers arguing with Easter Bunny believers?

:hide:

[zanne]

54. That was beautiful!

That's the way I see it, too.

[Arugula Latte]

59. Thanks!

:hi:

[T_i_B]

25. I agree more with them on religious matters then you actually

By and large I tend to agree with other Christians about the fundamentals of our faith.

The one issue where I tend to disagree with other Christian's is Calvinism, which denies the existence of free will. I tend to go in for Armenian theology, which means that I believe that mankind has been given free will. Not the sort of matter that folk round this discussion board understand in the slightest, which is why it's better to avoid the religion/theology forum on DU, because posting in that forum is quite literally tossing your pearls before swine.

[Critters2]

50. Calvinism doesn't deny free will

I know that's how Wesley presented it, but then Wesley wasn't a Calvinist. I am. Ask me what it means.

Calvinism doesn't deny free will. It denies that the use of one's free will influences one's salvation. That is, nothing you do, good or bad, will get you into heaven (or the other place). Salvation is completely dependent on the will of God.

I actually prefer this. I shudder to think what would happen if my salvation were dependent on my good works, as Wesley taught. Knowing me, that'd be a crap shoot, at best. I'd rather God just made the decision.

But then, based on my reading of scripture, I'm a universalist. That is, I believe we are dependent on the will of God for our salvation. And the will of God is that everyone should be saved. I couldn't come to that conclusion if I were Arminian.

Oh, and it's Arminian, not Armenian. Arminius=Dutch theologian of the latter part of the Reformation.
Armenia=area of Asia Minor where Turkey committed genocide against the Armenian people.

[Bill McBlueState]

53. Have you tried starting a topic like this in R/T?

I can't make any guarantees, but that crowd might enjoy an OP about theology, as long as the OP isn't trying to convert or insult anyone who doesn't share that theology. That's how the flame fests usually start.

[BreweryYardRat]

26. Futile. The real idiots won't listen to anything you say.

[LanternWaste]

27. every discussion is a bit different...

Being a Fundamentalist myself, I think every discussion is a bit different as no one person translates the contemporary editions of the Bible the precise same way.

However, if you're referring to a social conservative who justifies their greed by reaching for very bizarre interpretations, it's a simple matter of reading Swift, Bunyan or Lewis (established general interpretations & doctrines) and illustrating to them that what they are doing is in opposition to the Word.

That's what I do anyway...

[RegimeChange2008]

28. The very term "Christian Fundamentalist" is usually a misnomer

Literally speaking, a "Christian fundamentalist" would live according to the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the people who are called Christian fundamentalists live by anything but.

I'd guess that 80% of them never read their bibles at all, except maybe the cherry-picked scriptures which their pastor picks out on Sunday morning. And the average "fundie" pastor has already worked those verses into a message more compatible with the teachings of Jerry Falwell than Jesus Christ.

If "Christian fundamentalists" literally lived up to that term, we would have a far more peaceful world.

[Midlodemocrat]

33. Agreed.

Appears the term should probably be Christian evangelists. There is a lot of 'go out and convert' mentality in some of these churches.

One thing that always interested me and I've yet to get in answer from anyone, including priests, ministers, professors when I was in grad school, why don't these smaller RW churches practice Communion?

I'm Catholic. The sacrament is extremely holy and in fact, if you miss the consecration during the mass, it is said that you didn't attend church. If they profess to be so 'Christian', why is the consecration missing from most of the Prostestant churches? I don't mean the more mainstream Episcopal or Methodist, but the small 100 family churches that are essentially offshoots of the Baptist church?

I know, I'm rambling. But, I have always wondered about that.

[Critters2]

45. Actually, many conservative churches practice weekly communion,

which many mainline churches do not. The Independent Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ--both very large and very conservative movements--don't consider worship to be worship unless communion is celebrated. And these aren't offshoots of Baptists, but of Presbyterians, as are a lot of conservative faiths. Others, like the holiness and Pentecostal groups, are offshoots of Methodism.

For mainline denominations, at least those of the Reformed tradition (like me) the preaching of the Word is considered more important than the sacraments, which are celebrated regularly but not weekly. There is a consecration when communion is celebrated, but that doesn't take place every week.

I've always been confused by the fact that the only portion of scripture Catholics take literally is the institution of communion--thus the belief that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood. This seems so clearly metaphor to me (and nearly all Protestants), yet Catholics take it literally.

All traditions have different interpretations and emphases. I find it best to be respectful of all of them. So that I can expect the same of them.

[Critters2]

44. Actually, the term "fundamentalist" refers to The Fundamentals: A Testimony of the Truth"

a series of pamphlets published in the early 20th C. They purported to state what was fundamental to Christian faith. The first fundamentalists took these as groundwork for their faith.

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/fund.html

[bullwinkle428]

31. Tossing money-changers from temple = "Rambo Jesus"

I swear on my momma's life I've seen this particular parable used to justify the death penalty and the invasion of Iraq on another board I visit regularly...

[Critters2]

46. It really looks lie he was trying to free animals being used for sacrifice

Another time when God is angry about an injustice.

[Taverner]

51. I always saw it as justification for vandalism

Anarchist Jesus :)

[Critters2]

34. The OT God is also a socialist communitarian, at least affording to the prophets

and an animal rights activist. Don't yoke animals unequally, don't muzzle animals pulling the grinding wheel, etc, all COMMANDMENTS concerned about kindness to animals. Also, COMMANDMENTS to care for the poor, the widow, the orphan, the foreigner. Not suggestions. Not "if you happen to get around to it". COMMANDMENTS! Also, "love your neighbor as yourself" is a quote from the book of Deuteronomy, in the Old Testament. A lot of Jesus' teachings were quotes from the OT.

As for how they defend their view of Jesus...they quote things out of context and make things up. I like to watch them after I tell them that the phrase "personal Lord and Savior" is NOT a quote from scripture. Indeed, that lots of the phrases their leaders use as if they're biblical AREN'T.

Mostly, I've come to believe that they are really a different religion than me. This makes it easier to live with them--as I do with Muslims and Buddhists, etc. If I think they're perverting my faith, I get pissed off. If I think of it as another faith, not so much.

[xchrom]

63. i think of them as a different religion as well.

but i've also re-thought the whole personal savior business too.

making the faith an ''I'' thing is wrong some how.

it must be a ''We'' thing -- a faith based on communitarianism and co-creation.

but i also see the faith as a living constantly evolving thing -- with time, people, society and culture change -- knowledge propels us forward -- and it's appropriate that the faith not be rooted in dead traditionalism.

tradition must always be refreshed -- resurected, if you will -- with the changing times.

evangelicals are focused on an UNCHANGING god. a god who no matter what is always the same -- but when faced with noah, god CLEARLY changes.
jesus is a dramatic change -- clearly human -- and so on and so forth.

[Dukkha]

56. talk to this

same results

[rug]

58. It's like that old story about three blind men describing an elephant

[sasquatch]

60. It's like argueing with a robot that is programmed for circular logic

You can point out what Christ said and they'll ignore you because the head snakehandler at their congregation told them too and you can't argue with him because "He's a man of God!"

:eyes:

[madrchsod]

61. i gave up a long time ago

they refuse to think about anything because they believe what they are told.

[regnaD kciN]

62. Actually, it can be quite a bit of fun...

...particularly when it turns out (as usual) that you're the one who really knows the Christian faith, while they only know a few snippets from the bible force-fed to them by their right-wing pastor.

I'd say it's a lot more enjoyable than having to argue with certain liberals (and you know who you are) who will react to finding out you're a Christian by attacking your beliefs and suggesting that, unless you renounce your faith and join them in atheism/agnosticism/whatever, you're merely a closet fundie who is "just as bad" as Falwell, Robertson, etc. :eyes: