Advice needed-spousal abuse

[Raven]

I always get good advice here so here goes:

I have a very good friend whose husband has an alcohol problem among other things. They are in their 50's and for both this is their 3rd marriage. She has spoken in the past of him being verbally abusive and threatening and I think once he threw a glass of wine at her. We were at a small dinner party Friday night and he had arrived with a few under his belt. At dinner he began to tell a story and got rambling...everyone was kidding him about it, including his wife, in a good natured way. Suddenly he turned to her, his face black, I swear, and threatened her with bodily harm if she did not shut up and told her he was going to kick her out of their house. We all tried to intervene but he kept it up. There was absolute hate and rage on his face. He finally got up and left the party. I saw her the next day and she said that he blamed her for his outburst and said that she was disrespectful of him.

She is clearly looking for advice. I suggested that she go to Alanon (sp?)for starters. I am trying to be careful about this because I don't want to meddle but I'd like to tell her that my home is open to her at any time and I'd also like to advise her to be sure she has some $ in a separate account. What I'd really ilke to tell her is to get the hell out of there until he gets some help with this (which he has refused to do in the past). This is a very successful man who is a "nice guy" when he's sober. She tells me that family members (his and hers) have witnessed this in the past and ignore it.

I'm single (divorced decades ago) and I wouldn't put up with this for a minute but I'm beginning to wonder if this is normal for married couples.

Thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!

[Droopy]

1. That is not normal

I'm not married and I can tell you that. She needed to leave a long time ago. Offering her a place to stay in case she needs it is very kind of you and I think it's about all you can do.

[hippywife]

2. This is SO not normal!

I have witnessed this kind of thing at a party, too. Same exact thing happened, I swear! Me and another woman, neither of us who knew the guy, told him how terrible he was treating his wife. We weren't letting him off the hook for his behaviour. That is just a horrible way to treat someone you love.

She definitely needs to seek help and refuge for herself if he isn't willing to do anything about his problem.

I hope she does soon.

[Bunny]

3. She needs to get out, now. Whether she will do that or not remains

to be seen. But someone who would do that to her in front of others is clearly out of control.

Your advice re: Alanon is good, as is your advice about setting aside some money for herself. Opening your home to her is also very kind.

She has more control over the situation than she thinks, I hope she uses it and gets the hell out. There are worse things than being alone.

[zanne]

7. If you do open your home to her...

I hate to seem unkind, but I've been in her situation and I once escaped to some friends house. They took me in overnight and he found out where I was. The poor couple who took me in had most of their windows broken. Just be careful and have something/someone to back you up.

[China_cat]

19. I have to back up what you said.

Except that my abusive ex set my friends' place on fire.

To the OP, trust me, you are NOT equipped to have this person in your home with any kind of safety for anyone. Find the number of your nearest women's shelter and give it to her. Tell her to keep it in her shoe (it's the one place that has any chance of being safe from discovery) and encourage her to use it. The shelters will have the proper people and know the procedures to protect her (her children if she has any) and themselves.

As bad as things get, it's still sometimes necessary for the fear of what you know to become worse than the fear of the unknown for you to get out.

[Chan790]

4. Your second paragraph is spot-on.

As the child of two alcoholics...they don't usually get it together until they hit bottom and most recovering alcoholics will tell you the same thing.

If you don't mind me asking, what state? A lot of places have centers specifically for helping women in these situations. In CT we have the Prudence Crandall Center. http://www.prudencecrandall.org/. Try them or your local similar organization...they're always in the phone book, usually with a large ad-type notation. (Phone companies donate PSAds like this all the time because it costs them nothing and they write it off.) They can give you better advice because they're going to know exactly what is available to her for help and what the laws are in your state.

[Raven]

9. Thanks!

I'm in NH and I'll check that web site out.

[Chan790]

38. New Hampshire Domestic Violence resources

http://www.nhcadsv.org/crisis_centers.cfm

That's the list of crisis centers for domestic violence and abuse in New Hampshire from the New Hampshire Coalition Against Domestic & Sexual Violence. website: http://www.nhcadsv.org. Their statewide hotline for guidance (for people who have concerns about friends or loved ones in an abusive situation) or for victim services is: 1-866-644-3574.

[zanne]

5. I was married to a "nice guy" when he was sober...

And he was. A wonderful, big-hearted guy who used to pick me flowers and read aloud to me every night. Until he got drunk. Then he was a monster who looked an awful lot like the guy who brought me flowers and had the look of hatred on his face. After a while, I also had that look, but it wasn't because I was drunk. I left him. He sobered up a few years later, but by then the hatred had taken over and it was too late.

[somewhere_out_there]

21. If you care for your friend, tell/help her to get out....

How many more Nicole Brown Simpsons do we need before people truly understand wife abusers? I was in that situation when my children were babies. It isn't easy, but she needs to get out before she is found dead.

[caty]

6. Your friend needs to

realize that abuse only escalates. She needs to get out. She would be better off on her own than in a house with someone who could turn on her and injure or kill her at any moment.

[Lars39]

8. I wouldn't have *any* qualms about meddling.

If she had been a total stranger that he had threatened and thrown things at, he would have already been arrested.

[philosophie_en_rose]

10. Alcohol is not main the issue. Look for your state's anti-domestic violence coalition.

Domestic violence isn't about a punch to the face or a cup of beer. It's a pattern of power and control used to demean the other partner.

Alcohol is NOT an excuse for that behavior. Notice that he did NOT attack you or anyone else. Someone with a medical condition would not discriminate. He attacked HER, because he thinks he's entitled to do so. Sobriety would not change that. His reaction of blaming the victim is evidence of that.

My advice to you is to be the friend that she can rely upon. Offer to keep a bag of her stuff and copies of her important papers at your house, in case she does need to get out quickly. Let her use your phone or offer to do research for her. Don't be afraid to be a meddler, but also get some professional help from a crisis center.

He could get help (from a domestic violence perpetrator treatment program), but she needs to be safe. If he acts like that in front of you, imagine what he acts like when no one is there. It is NOT normal.

Again, it's not just about alcohol or violence. Domestic violence is about forcing someone else to live in fear. He throws things at her to send her a message, not to vent alcoholic frustration.

On edit:

Here are some resources for New Hampshire.

http://www.nhcadsv.org/safety_planning.pdf - a safety plan
http://www.nhcadsv.org/crisis_centers.cfm - crisis centers in New Hampshire

[hippywife]

42. Best response on this thread.

Keeping a bag and copies of important papers at her friend's house is a great idea!

I also second the advice of all the folks that advise to have her seek shelter other than the OP's house. No one knows how ugly this will get once she does leave.

[LuLu550]

11. Been there, done that.

His behavior is classic alcoholism. He will not change, it will only get worse.

Of course he blames her, again classic behavior.

Your advice for her to attend AL-Anon is good. But the bottom line is, unless he gets sober, things will not get better. She needs to get out.

[LostinVA]

12. It's not the alcohol, it's him

Alcohol isn't making him act like this, he IS this. I have a raft of alcoholics in my family, and alcohol doesn't cause someone to suddenly become abusive -- all it can do it "take the brakes off" some.

Meddle. Get here to talk to someone. Just -- both of you be careful, okay?

[LuLu550]

13. With all due respect

the place in the brain that gets "unleashed" be alcohol is the anger center. Get a bunch of people high on pot and they mellow out, laugh and eat too much. Get a bunch of people drunk and someone winds up throwing punches.

Alcoholism is complex. Alcoholics are self-medicating. They have big, nasty demons that come out when they get drunk. In that way, their behavior is predicable.

She needs help, he needs help. They can either do it together or apart, but the bottom line is, she needs to save herself.

[philosophie_en_rose]

14. With all due respect

AA does not treat domestic violence.

[Kajsa]

18. NO, but it's does treat one of the

major causes of it.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. Alcoholics who have this sort of demon are domestic abusers.

Their problems are bigger than just alcoholism. As long as he's blaming her for his outbursts I'd bet that he is unwilling to seek help. She on the other hand doesn't need to go through this alone and if I were her friend I'd suggest domestic violence counseling and Al-anon, but in that order. She needs help and is seeking it. Him, who knows. He may be years from recognizes that he has problems.

[SPKrazy]

34. This Is True

it is also true that unless he stops drinking, all the "domestic abuse" counseling in the world is probabl going to be useless.

:shrug:

[Gormy Cuss]

37. True, but I don't suggest it for him. She on the other hand may benefit a great deal.

Frankly, I haven't seen very good outcomes with the combo alcoholic/verbal or physical abusers because most of the ones I've known continued to lie to themselves about the root causes of both issues. Note that I said most, not all, and those that I've known, not the universe of people with both issues.

[LostinVA]

25. As I said, I have alcoholics close to me

Alcohol is not making her husband that way -- he IS that way. Thus, if alcohol is a "trigger" for him, then he needs to leave it alone. If he won't, then she needs to make a decision.

Not laying on the snark, I promise -- just saying that this is something I know up close and personal, not just from Oprah or Dr. Phil!

[LuLu550]

28. I grew up in an alcoholic, abusive home

and married and alcoholic, abusive man.

Yes, there is a cycle there. My main suggestion to the woman was GET OUT!

[CharmCity]

35. To help your friend...

it would be helpful to let her know that you are in fact there to help if need be. Suggest you be specific: you have an extra room for her, a shoulder to cry on, etc. I assure you she will appreciate that regardless of what she decides to do.

[Phillycat]

61. You are exactly right.

Alcoholics do things drunk that they would never do sober. In recovery, they never do them again.

I am a recovering alcoholic.

[Scout]

64. "In recovery, they never do them again." Not necessarily. n/t

[China_cat]

20. He uses the alcohol as an excuse because

he knows that people will cut him some slack..."oh, he was drunk but he's really a nice guy when he's sober"

[LostinVA]

26. Bingo -- I've seen this over and over again with family members n/t

[Phillycat]

59. No.

Alcoholics will do things drunk that they would never do sober. And when they go into recovery, they never do those things again.

I am a recovering alcoholic.

[hedgehog]

39. It's not that the abuser drinks and the brakes come off,

the abuser drinks to take the brakes off.

[Scout]

58. ding! ding! ding!

the abuser drinks to take the brakes off

exactly correct! it's a "great" excuse for them.

[Phillycat]

60. No.

See my post above.

[undeterred]

15. It takes people a long time to make this decision

I think you should advise her to move out, go to Alanon, etc. But it might take more incidents or ups and downs before she is ready because it is such a hard thing to do, and the psychological factors are so strong.

A few years ago, I realized I was dating an alcoholic. He wasn't mean when drunk, mostly horny. But he drank every day and encouraged me to do the same, which I didn't. Four months into the relationship I found myself in a parking lot waiting for my first Alanon meeting... during the 15 minute wait I decided to get out of the relationship instead of going in to the meeting. Best decision I ever made.

After a while he and I became friends again, and he's a good friend. But he's an alcoholic and he is now married to a woman who drinks to keep up with him. They fight (verbally). He tells her she can't "handle" her alcohol. She moves out and goes back to him again. She will never really leave him. This is what it looks like when you have an alcoholic marriage.

[Pierre.Suave]

16. Honestly

as a guy, if someone had done that to a girl I know and am friends with, Him and I would have been having a talk outback. There is NO excuse for that whatsoever.

That being said, what your friend needs is a safe place, away from him, and because these assholes usually tear down the self esteem of their victims, she probably needs a lot of love, kindness, and to be reminded she has worth and deserves better because ultimately, it will be up to her whether or not she gets out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. my chauffer in india was the best husband on earth till he discovered alcohol

then he turning in to a wife beating asshole. this lasted about three years.

anyhow after he quit drinking he reverted back to being the best husband ever.

alcohol will turn some people into violent assholes. he needs to quit drinking and she needs to leave if he doesnt.

[Raven]

22. These posts have been incredibly helpful

I've been on the links you've given me and now have a package of info for her including a safety plan. I won't email anything to her since the websites wisely caution against that (I wouldn't have thought of that). There is a crisis center right in Keene which is very close. One of the slogans I ran across on one of the websites is "Domestic abuse is never justified". My friend really needs to hear that!

Thank you all!

[LostinVA]

27. Good luck -- and seriously, YOU be careful too, okay?

[av8rdave]

24. Unfortunately, behavior like that will NEVER stop without professional help

I hope she can convince him to seek it, or seek it on her own if he won't cooperate. If he won't participate, she can at least learn some skills to deal with it and some escape strategies if it escalates.

This, by the way, is NOT normal for married couples, and my heart goes out to her. I hope she finds a solution.

[SPKrazy]

29. Unless He Stops Drinking There Will Be No Change

period

He may be the biggest asshole in the world? He may not. Unless he stops drinking there is NO WAY TO KNOW.

Any suggestions otherwise show a total lack of understanding of the disease of Alcoholism.

Sure, if you have a drunken horse thief and you sober him/her up, you may still definitely have a horse thief. But at least you have something to work with. The drunken part will not be amenable to change of any kind until it disappears.

It is not normal behavior as the OP wonders.

Alanon may help the woman, but it won't sober up her husband. Nothing will except him coming to a decision that he wants to change what he's doing. What creates that moment of "aha" is different for everyone.

She needs to make herself safe. She may need to leave, or not.

Asking for advice about such a difficult problem on a board like this is only going to lead to a multitude of opinions. Her best bet would be to consult professionals.


Thanks

SPK

[Kajsa]

33. Hear, hear!

I second everything SPK said.

Thanks, Southpaw.

:pals:

[idgiehkt]

30. If you take her in, get ready to become a target

Get ready to have to get trespass notices, restraining orders, be harassed, have your pets harassed or abused or just disappear, property vandalized, etc. I would think about this really hard before you do it. There are safe houses for victims of domestic violence and perhaps she needs to look into that.

[SOteric]

31. Al-anon and a good therapist.

Seriously. Even if he doesn't want to go, she should. It will help her understand some things about the relationship and give her some good strategies for dealing with the marriage no matter what decision she makes about staying with him.

[Pushed To The Left]

32. He sounds like bad news

People are responsible for how they treat other people, drunk or not. If this guy can't control himself and becomes abusive when he drinks, then he either needs to quit drinking or she needs to get out of there.

[Blue Gardener]

36. If he treats her like his in public

What is he doing behind closed doors?
Just another two cents, if she does leave, there is always a chance she will go back. Sometimes it's tough to make a complete break on the first attempt.. Continue to be her friend no matter what she does, she may need you. It's good of you to be concerned.

[roguevalley]

40. she needs to leave. now. he's not afraid to abuse her in front of

others. she needs to get out now.

[SPKrazy]

41. Who Here Is Qualified To Give Medical or Legal Advice On This?

:shrug:

[Raven]

43. I wasn't asking

for legal or medical advice. I was asking for common sense advice and I think I got it. :-)

[SPKrazy]

44. Actually...

you got a wide variety of replies

some not worth the space they took up

and someone who is being threatened in an abusive situation is not something that amateurs should be giving or getting advice on.

As a mental health professional I would advise you to tell your friend to seek professional help.

You can't fix her, she can't fix her husband.

Alcoholism is a medical problem, and people who abuse others are sometimes mentally ill, and sometimes not.

Either way, I stand by my statement

:)

[philosophie_en_rose]

47. Message boards exist to share opinions..

And many of us are qualified to give legal and medical advice regarding this issue. I'm sure Raven and her friend can determine the appropriate weight to give the information.

In any case, domestic violence is everyone's business. It does not take a professional to provide emotional and practical support to a victim. I am glad that Raven's friend has someone that cares enough to learn more.

People should not turn a blind eye, simply because they do not meet your standards.

[SPKrazy]

49. I'm Not Suggesting Anyone Turn A Blind Eye

I am just concerned that people do seek professional support and help. It does not take professionals to support a victim, it does take professionals to treat persons that have alcohol problems and are abusive.

I apologize for any misunderstandings here and have listed persons that might be good types of professionals to seek help from.

My standards are that it is a deadly situation and I'd hate to see someone not seek help period.

So I think we probably agree on that, and my reaction is and was likely not done well, but I promise I'm well intentioned here and in no way suggesting a blind eye ever be turned on a problem as serious as abuse of any kind.

Peace

:pals:

[mopinko]

45. 3rd marriage?

i think it may be hopeless. obviously, she knows how to operate the door.
intervening in someone's marriage is quite likely to cost you the friendship. she is in denial, and will not want to face you after she figures out that you represent the truth. sorry i can't jump on the pollyanna bandwagon.

[uppityperson]

46. How to come to grips with the fact that the person you may love is really bad for you.

Keep a kit (papers, meds, clothes, toothbrush, some money) at a friends house.
Have a seperate or savings checking account, keep it a secret which may be difficult, but important. Even a couple hundred will help.
Talk to a DV place, women's shelter. Have the numbers somewhere so can call fast if need to.
There is nothing wrong with doing any of this, with taking care of yourself. Ignoring this sort behavior does not help. Don't confront a drunk. Get away, hide out, confront when sober with someone else there (not alone). It can be really hard to come to grips that someone you love is very bad for you, but it happens and is ok. Good luck.

[SPKrazy]

48. Types Of Professionals To Seek Help From

domestic abuse shelters
certified addiction counselors
clinical social workers
licensed professional counselors
psychologists
psychiatrists
licensed marriage and family counselors

perhaps clergy, but with a caviat- most are not qualified to diagnose and treat problems such as alcoholism or domestic abuse, they would be better support persons who recommend someone to see professionally.

community mental health centers

domestic abuse hotlines

Alanon is good for support, but they are not a substitute for a professional in dealing with domestic abuse

Domestic abuse is very serious. Too many people die because the person thinks that the abuser will "change" or whatever they think. If someone is being abused, and the abuser is using substances, then you have a very dangerous situation at hand. Substances will skew a person's thinking in unpredictable directions.

Your friend needs to seek the help of people probably starting in a domestic violence center, they may be able to recommend the best persons in your community to help.

Every community is different. The police are also a possible ally in that they may be able to refer her to someone or an agency that can help as they deal with domestic abuse all the time.

If you take her into your home, there is great risk in that as the person who is an abuser is likely to escalate into crisis as the situation changes.

I truly don't like giving advice in a web forum setting because I have no real knowledge of the situation, but I will say that domestic abuse is such a serious issue, that as a mental health professional I am held to a standard of if I don't address it after learning of it, I am risking my license, my livelihood, and my reputation. All good, because the issue needs to be addressed. Once it is learned by a professional as described above, they have an obligation to do something.

thanks

Peace and no conflict intended, I'm just a bit on the sensitive side on this issue, and a bit on the irritable side today anyhow :)

:hi:

[Gormy Cuss]

50. Thanks, SPK. This is a great post. n/t

[u4ic]

54. I'd be wary of clergy

unless they are of a more liberal denomination (United, Methodist, UU, perhaps Episcopalian; I don't know much about the latter)

Some very conservative denominations/sects will send the abused woman back to her husband, stating she's either been a bad wife and needs to be better, or to pray more. (I HOPE the Catholic church doesn't do this anymore)

[SPKrazy]

55. Yes, Hence My Caviat-

although your point is well taken that liberal denominations tend to be more educated in general and more educated about the realities of abuse and alcoholism.

As an Episcopal of sorts (not really into the whole Christian thing but attend the church right now) I can tell you that at least my experience is that priests tend to be well enough educated to know what to do in that regard. That said, there are bad apples in every bunch.

I recently met a woman who had been having an affair with an Episcopal priest, and she discovered that she was not the only one when she found a list of women he was sleeping with. Now I don't know if this would affect his ability to give good advice or not it is just an example that not everything is ever as it seems it should be. The priest was fairly emotionally abusive to her.

Good points and thanks for pointing that out!

:pals:

[liberal renegade]

51. He's a drunken

disrespectful asshole. It's time to hit the road and never look back.. that's just my 3 cents....

[GenDem]

52. I'm so sorry for your friend

I will not add any more advice, as it has been said so well by others in this thread. Sadly, many of us have witnessed this -- whether with family members or friends, and I am no exception. Your friend is lucky to have you. We had my SIL living with us for a few days after a domestic violence incident with her alcoholic husband, and the police needed to be called when he arrived in our front yard ranting, raving, and threatening. Very scary business. I'll never forget my SIL and her three children hovering on our stairs (all of them crying), as we waited for the sheriff to arrive.

:hug:

[gemdem]

53. She needs to get out to a safe house

A battered women's shelter is a good start. Follow it up with Al-Anon and other counseling. This is not normal, it's an abusive, possibly dangerous situation.

[SPKrazy]

56. Good Points

it isn't normal

:thumbsup:

[Scout]

57. definitely NOT normal.

she needs to leave him ... my experience has been that he is NOT going to be able to make the kind of lasting changes needed to help heal their relationship.

I didn't like going to alanon when I went. I didn't have to "learn how to live with an alcoholic" I had to get away from him. We tried rehab and counseling. We were much better off just getting divorced.

I'm happily married now to someone else!

[wildhorses]

62. if that is normal behavior then i am in the market for an

abnormal male...she needs to run away!! she also prolly needs aome al-anon. good luck to her.

[Phillycat]

63. Don't tell her to leave.

If you do, she won't be able to stay friends with you when she goes back to him. Offer support and the spare room, but don't tell her to leave him. She will be too ashamed to use you as support after the (almost) inevitable reconciliation.

But PLEASE offer the support and the spare room. Having options will be such a comfort to her.

[Breeze54]

65. She should demand

that he go to AA or get the hell out!!

She could also get a restraining order.

He's an abusive prick and he and the whole family need counseling.