How do you get a kid to study who just won't study?

[jobycom]

I'm out of ideas. My 8th grade daughter is once again failing. Same pattern every year--she starts strong, drops to below failing most of the year, then makes As and high Bs in the final six weeks to barely pass. This time I'm not sure she's going to make it.

I know she's smart enough. Her grades are either 80s or they are 0s. She fails from not doing homework, not studying for tests, etc. We've tried everything, from checking to be sure she's done her homework every night to putting the full responsibility on her. We've tried rewards systems, punishment systems, no systems. We've had her so grounded at times that she has to sit at the dining room table with her books, pens, and notepads in front of her, and nothing else. She still finds a way to not do anything.

Some people have suggested counseling, but I don't even know what kind of counselor one hires for that.

There are some other issues. In general, she's smart, happy, laughs a lot, is a great friend, talks to me about everything (her friends have said they don't tell her some secrets because she'd tell me). She chats on the Internet for hours (yes, I monitor it and have instructed her on what to do, and I personally know just about everyone she chats with, and their parents). She's more mature and more grounded than most kids her age--her teachers are always commenting on that.

But my wife and I separated two years ago. Her grade problems and basic unambitiousness long predates the separation, but she gained a lot of weight when we separated, and is obese now. That also coincided with puberty, so I'm not sure the separation is the whole problem. She's still a beautiful person, but her weight is a serious health concern--her diet is the perfect recipe for diabetes and heart disease, and she does not excercise at all. She gets winded just moving around her room sometimes.

I've also become increasingly aware that she internalizes more than I thought. She had been looking forward to a school trip all year, even since last year, and she just found out she can't go because she failed two of her courses in the last six weeks. She's acting like she doesn't care--just smiling and saying she wasn't excited about the trip in the first place. I know she was, and she's very disappointed, but she's burying that.

She lives with my wife. I see both kids every day, for several hours. I pick them up from school, go hiking with them, play video games, cook, help with their homework, and turn them over to spouse when she gets home around 7. Neither of us has dated anyone else, so there are no new people in their lives. My kids and I have a great relationship, and we do things together other than sit around--bike riding, shopping, hiking, talking about rock music, stuff like that. My spouse and I go to almost every school event together, and even eat out together sometimes, so the kids aren't deprived of either parent, and they see us together. We usually can do this without fighting. I'm sure the separation is leaving a scar, but so was the marriage when we lived together.

Anyway, I don't know what to do. Counseling? How do you find a counselor for bad grades and a sort of happy rebelliousness? Am I missing anything? My daughter has a lot of the same character traits I do, including the unambitiousness and the refusal to listen to advice most of the time. But I always did well in school, and had other ambitions. I don't see any with her. Any advice?

[barb162]

1. It sounds like school work bores her out of her mind.

Will the possibility of failing and having to go to summer school help?

I'd call a counselor at the school district and ask them if they have any idea how to motivate kids. That should be free, right? I've seen a lot of kids like this, but mostly boys.

[jobycom]

4. I think boredom is part of it, but I think there's a rebellion aspect, too.

So far the very real threat of failing hasn't motivated her. Barring a miracle, she will probably go to summer school. Threats seem to stiffen her resolve to do the opposite. Another unfortunate similarity to me. :)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. maybe the normal school atmosphere is just not what she needs

(I say this as a high-IQ high school drop out.)

Some of us just learn differently. Perhaps an alternative curriculum would be more her style?

Whatever you decide, as long as she knows you love and cherish her, she will turn out OK in the end. :hug:

[jobycom]

7. Like what?

She's been to a small private school and a large public school, with the same results. What alternatives are out there?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

33. options...

Alternative Learning centers, homeschooling, Independent Study, magnet schools, or virtual school.

Google any of these terms, add your state to the search to see what is available near you.

[patsimae]

3. I have been there

Have your daughter evaluated by a neuropsychologist. He or she will give a full scale IQ test and test for latent learning disabilities and ADHD. Ask the pediatrician for a referral. Our medical insurance covered a portion of the cost.

[huskerlaw]

5. I had a few thoughts...

a)She could be using her grades as a punishment of sorts against you or her mother. I don't know you family dynamic at all, obviously, but I've seen this in other people. You said she internalizes, so it's possible that there is something...either from the divorce or some other behavior or pattern or...God only knows what...that's upsetting her. Instead of dealing with it, and letting you know that she's angry, she's punishing you with the bad grades. Obviously her grades are upsetting to you, and it could be the one way she's figured out to make you "suffer" without confronting you (and by "you" I mean you or your ex).

b) She's using it as a control thing. If she feels that the rest of her life is out of control, she might feel her schoolwork is the only thing she CAN control, because as you said, you can't force her to do it.

c) She's bored out of her mind, and would do better in a more challenging/dynamic environment.

d) She has an undiagnosed learning disorder, such as ADHD, and honestly can't focus on her homework, or in her classes.

e) She's depressed, and therefore can't focus on/doesn't have the energy to do her homework.

f) None of the above, lol.

Regardless, I think you do need to get her some counseling. If for no other reason but to try to figure out what the underlying issue is, or if there is one at all. I would start by talking to her teachers or a school guidance counselor. They spend 7ish hours a day with her...ask them what their opinion is. Then find her some outside help. This seems a little severe to just be a case of lack of ambition.

Good luck!

[jobycom]

8. Your first and second points are what I suspect.

She does the same thing with eating. I think the punishment and control are part of the same thing. I would like to say she's mostly punishing her mother, who yells at her a lot and is very arbitrary in the way she assigns chores. She tends to assign a chore by yelling at her for not doing anything then looking around for something to make her do. As a result, my kid feels that she's always being ordered around. Her mother and I have fought about that a lot, in fact--it was a big part of the reason I left. But fighting hassn't helped, and may even be part of the problem.

I'm sure I'm doing something horribly wrong, too, but I can't figure it out. Much easier to see the faults in an ex, isn't it? :)

So she winds up upset and afraid to show it, and feeling like she has no control.

Thanks for the input, I think you are right on a lot of that.

[medeak]

6. shit fuck

have been there...but one kid has graduate degree from London and other is a good test taker in Portland.

Both of these brilliant kids have broken my heart....but after a few years have surprised me..amazing kids. ummm focus on the best attributes they have. Ignore the worst...wow...you are so ruminating over things like I did...take a deep breath and think of good thoughts...and think of your child. sounds corny but works. am lighting a candle for you..

[barb162]

9. interesting

I know a woman who did poorly at a state school and then she went to a more difficult private college where she excelled. She eventually got a PhD

[uppityperson]

10. I've been there also. Not much past it, still working with jr, and it is hard

heartbreaking to watch your child hurt themselves to teach whomever they think is trying to control them a lesson. She sounds like a caring interesting kid. Sometimes counseling is a good idea, if she will go for it. I told myself if I could survive my child's childhood, jr would do ok. We are almost there. Hard to watch them suffer and figure out how to stay open to them, how to restrict them, how to motivate them. Jr got through high school without being on drugs, alcohol, pregnant or suicided, no problems with police, so we adjusted our thinking to being happy for that. Now jr is figuring out college (hey, did you know that if you live away from your parents and don't turn in your homework and get bad grades you can't blame your parents anymore?) and eventually will come through ok. Is a good person. Your daughter sounds like a good caring person too.

It isn't easy, but is common, and best of luck.

[reyd reid reed]

11. She sounds like a female version

of #3 son. We go through the same thing every single year and I don't know what to do any more, either. He CAN do the work, he just DOESN'T do the work. He draws instead. Doodles. Whatever -- but he makes As and Bs on the tests. And 0s on all the homework assignments. Even when he DOES them...and I've WATCHED him do them...he doesn't get them turned in. "I left it in my locker." "I forgot to turn it in." "I think I must have dropped it on the bus or something." or...the perennial favorite..."I dunno."


GAH!!!!

:crazy:

If you hit on anything that works...share it.

PLEASE!!!!!!

[jobycom]

19. I don't know whether to

thank you for that advice or curse you for making feel like it's hopeless! :rofl: Thanks!

[grasswire]

12. my first thought...

...came when you mentioned her diet and weight problem.

(By the way, I appreciate your very thoughtful post -- that took a lot of courage to put out here. Your love for your daughter is apparent!)

May I ask a couple of questions about her food choices? Is she particularly attracted to sugar? What else is she drawn to?

I've been dealing with particular food issues for my 14-year-old niece who lives with me. She, also, has been up and down with her school work in 8th grade this year. She, also, is basically inert. Her food choices and her inactivity have contributed to bronchitis each year, and sometimes it's even become pneumonia.

We found a book that helped a lot, and I'd like to share what we've learned about food choices if it seems pertinent to your daughter's diet and pattern.

Two other unrelated questions: 1. How's the other kid doing? 2. When she is grounded, is she restricted from the Internet?

[jobycom]

18. She likes sugar, but it's more of the paste type foods that she's addicted to.

Pizza, bread. Plus, cheeses. She's funny--I can cook a wonderfully healthy meal with veggies, rice, beans, some meat substitute (I'm vegetarian, though they eat meat whenever they want. I just don't cook it for them), or whatever, and she will find a way to eat only the unhealthy parts. I can cook spaghetti with a vegetable sauce, and when she's done, it looks like she sucked the noodles out of the sauce! She'll do that with rice, with potatoes, with any carb. If I make only vegetables, she'll go for the corn. Definitely a carb addiction. She doesn't particularly dislike vegetables, but she eats the parts she prefers most. That's really the essence of her problem, in everything. She does what she prefers, and leaves the rest, even if she doesn't really dislike the part she leaves. (Darn, she's a lot like me, but much worse).

We had a lot of issues with ear infections when she was small, so I spent a lot of time cleaning up her diet. I finally had to give up, because she was rebelling with her food. We would tell her she had to eat her vegetables or no one could leave the table. We'd sit there for hours. She'd chew the same piece of broccoli (which she likes) for twenty minutes, shoving the food around her plate with a look of concentration on her face that makes it look like she's trying to eat. She fools her teachers with that look in class. They have all told us she was trying really hard, but just didn't seem capable of the work. I would tell them she was capable, she was fooling them. SO they'd give me that "You are in denial and pushing your child too hard" look and speech, and coddle her more to make up for her overbearing parents. She doesn't fool them as easily in junior high, though. I think it's because the classes are so large they don't really get to see her act. Her teachers usually tell me by the end of the year that they were wrong. Her fifth grade teacher saw it even before we told her, and that was probably her best year. I wish we could clone that teacher!

I have on some occassions gotten her to actually try. I've seen her fly through math sheets in nothing flat, with perfect accuracy, so she could go somewhere with me. But most times she won't try, no matter the incentive and/or punishment.

The other kid is ambitious, a little hard to control. When she has a problem, I can usually give her a couple of short lectures, and she'll correct it. Her mother favors her, rather obviously. Mother acts more like a big sister than a mother, so she winds up fighting a lot with her older daughter. They both listen to me more than to her, but the younger one listens to her better than the older one. Plus, whatever problems her mother had with me she seems to have with the older daughter. They have a good relationship for the most part, but there are some glaring problems.

On grounding, we take away the Internet, but her mother is bad about sticking to any punishment. Actually, its more like she's arbitrary. For no real reason other than how she is feeling, she'll take it away or give it back. I could get into the personality dynamics, but it would take way too long. :) She's not as bad a person as all this sounds (well, I think she is, but objectively, I know she isn't), it's just that I'm listing faults instead of virtues because of the discussion. :) And I have plenty of faults, too.

[grasswire]

50. thanks for the reply

First, it sounds as if your ex wife is sometimes sabotaging your daughter by not being consistent. Perhaps some family counseling is in order about that issue.

Your daughter is so much like my niece, who also wants to be a film director. My girl actually has a mentor available to her who is a professional documentary maker and is willing to loan her cameras, teach her this and that and even let her crew for him, but she shows no initiative aside from a few times when she has used his help on a school project.

My niece's food issues are similar. When she came into my household, she would only eat a few things, all white. Plain cucumber sandwiches on sourdough bread. Pizza crust with all the sauce and toppings scraped off. Pasta noodles with lemon juice only. Any kind of white roll or bread. And, yes, she will eat the carb or fruity thing off any plate and leave all else. She's notorious for picking tiny bits of unwanted things off the desirable things. This was always indulged, and explained away as just "picky" -- but it was obviously more than that and had meaning related to other facets of her life.

Carbs (sugars and starches converted to sugar) affect blood sugar, remember. Blood sugar swings in people who are not properly nourished set off biochemical reactions involving beta endorphins and serotonin. And some people are inherently beta endorphin deficient. Beta endorphin needs can be satisfied several ways: sex, alcohol (sugar), exercise, and sugar. The whole thing is a vicious cycle. The daily emotional and mental roller coaster produced by these swings in blood sugar affects self esteem, decision making, mood, and so much more. Your daughter may not be so drawn to candy or sweets, but the "pastes" certainly affect her in the same way candy would.

Here's what we learned, through research. I'm going to quote the author, who is a Ph.D. specializing in addictions recovery who stumbled on this correlation and developed the theory of "sugar sensitivity" (This excerpt is from an article she wrote about children, but the theory holds for teens and adults as well):

..............
Let's talk about the biochemistry of sugar sensitivity and how all the pieces fit together. Imagine a stool with three legs, each with its own name: blood sugar, serotonin, and beta-endorphin.

Blood Sugar

Let's look at the first leg: blood sugar. This leg is critical for sugar sensitive children, so listen carefully to the story. Normally, when you eat foods made up of carbohydrates (sugars and starches), your blood sugar rises and your body releases a hormone called insulin. Insulin helps your cells draw sugar from your bloodstream to use as fuel. This is a very well-regulated system, and normally the size of the rise in your blood sugar and amount of insulin released are in proportion to the foods you eat. If you are sugar sensitive, you can be highly sensitive to carbohydrates and your system will overreact. When you eat carbohydrates, your blood sugar rises more quickly and goes higher than normal. In response, a greater amount of insulin is released, and your cells quickly absorb the sugar in your blood. This causes your blood sugar level to plunge. These blood sugar changes make you feel really good, even high, at first, and then tired, overwhelmed, and spacey as the level drops.

So when a sugar sensitive child eats carbohydrates (especially without protein to slow down the effect), he experiences a blood sugar spike. Instead of a gentle rise and fall, he gets a spike that causes a problem. This condition is not the same as hypoglycemia. In hypoglycemia, the blood sugar drops below normal. In sugar sensitivity, the blood sugar rises and falls quickly but does not necessarily fall below normal. Your sugar sensitive child will run out of fuel more quickly than other children. If he has sugary cereal for breakfast at 7 a.m., he will be zooming around full of energy at 8 and crashing by 9:30. By 10, he will be both frantic and bouncing off the wall or will be a zombie, unable to pay attention in class. His body has already used up the sugary cereal, and he's running on empty. To his teacher, he will look like a child with ADD or he may seem depressed. It is tricky to diagnose because the same syndrome can cause different symptoms.

When he is at home and his blood sugar plunges, he will come cruising into the kitchen for a snack--a sweet snack NOW! He will drink a soda and grab a Pop-Tart or a sugar-laden energy bar or grab some candy and dash out the door. After he eats his snack, his blood sugar will spike and crash again. This pattern of spiking and crashing may happen three or four times a day. Each time it does, it creates stress in your child's body. Each time the blood sugar spikes, the body thinks it is in danger and releases adrenaline. This repeated stress depletes his system more and more. Over time this pattern takes its toll with something called adrenaline fatigue. He crashes on the weekend and sleeps till 9 or 10. During the week, he can't get up on time for school. If you even look at him the wrong way in the morning, he falls apart. He has no resilience. You may attribute his behavior to a growth spurt, or a family issue like a divorce, a move, or the arrival of a new baby. And you wouldn't think to make the connection between this behavior and the sugary cereal he had for breakfast.

Serotonin

Serotonin is a chemical that quiets the brain. It takes the edge off. It makes your child feel like the world is an okay place to be. It also enables her to put the brakes on emotions and behavior. Think of it as the brakes in her brain. If she has a sufficient level of serotonin in her brain, she stays out of trouble. If she doesn't, she can be impulsive, act without thinking, and talk without stopping. A child with low serotonin has a short fuse and talks back. She gets in your face, acts out, and can't control herself. She can get fixed on one subject, one issue, or one desire, and can't get off it. Or she can be depressed, overwhelmed, and unable to cope with stress.

Sugar sensitive children have lower levels of serotonin than other children. Sugar sensitive children who experience trauma or violence (even the violence of movies or video games) will have even lower serotonin and be more vulnerable to the symptoms I have described.

We can't measure exact serotonin levels in the brain, but once you understand the effects of low serotonin, you will begin to see patterns in your child's behavior. If she often manifests the behavior I have described, isn't it a whole lot more comforting to know it is because of imbalanced brain chemistry rather than her just being a bad girl? Or your being a bad parent? Isn't it a relief to know there is a solution that doesn't require expensive medication, psychotherapy, or boot camp? The plan in Little Sugar Addicts is designed to raise your child's serotonin levels by making changes in her diet.

Beta-Endorphin

The second brain chemical involved in sugar sensitivity is beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin is the brain's own painkiller. It is there to protect us from big pain. When our ancestors had to run from a saber-toothed tiger, their brains flooded with beta-endorphin, which enabled them to keep running despite the pain in their lungs so they could get to safety. In modern times, most people experience that flood of beta-endorphin as a rush called runner's high.

Children who are not sugar sensitive have normal levels of beta-endorphin. They have tolerance for pain; they brush it off with a shake. But sugar sensitive children, who have low beta-endorphin, feel every hurt. They fear or hate the dentist, they cry when they scrape their knees, they cry if they find a dead bird, they cry if a friend hurts their feelings, they cry if you criticize them or even if you look at them the wrong way, they cry at everything, it seems. They are often labeled "sensitive" if they are girls or "sissies" if they are boys.

We have known about the pain-masking effect of beta-endorphin for a long time. But there is a second part of the beta-endorphin story that is even more amazing. Beta-endorphin levels are also associated with self-esteem. I learned this intriguing fact when I was reading the literature about heroin addicts. Since then, in my work with thousands and thousands of addicts and sugar sensitive people, I have become convinced that this is a crucial part of the story for all of us.

Children with high levels of beta-endorphin feel confident and able to cope with life. When they face hard things, they problem-solve and find solutions. Children with low beta-endorphin get stuck and feel helpless. They feel inadequate and unworthy, even if they are smart. Their feelings do not match the facts. Some of these children overcompensate in an effort to please. They try to be perfect. Others simply give up.

Until I discovered this link, I never imagined that self-esteem was biochemical. Like everyone else, I figured it was psychological. When I raised my own children, I was troubled that they often felt so inadequate. They were attractive, smart, and capable, but the reality didn't seem to matter. What was even more confusing was how their feelings could change. Sometimes they felt they could take on the world, other times they felt like they couldn't even tie their shoes. I often wondered what had I done wrong. It never, ever occurred to me that going for ice cream sundaes was biochemically causing their self-esteem to skyrocket right after the sundae and plummet a few hours later.

I first noticed this link between food and self-esteem in my own life. When I was growing up, I often felt the same way my children had. The inside feeling of inadequacy did not match the outside circumstances. There seemed to be no real reason I should feel so unworthy. After I changed the way I ate, my own self-esteem changed. How I felt on the inside matched the outside. I felt capable, and I was capable. And this feeling didn't suddenly go away one day only to reappear the next. I could count on it. I could count on myself.

My experience has now been mirrored in thousands of people who are talking online. Here is a note from Joanne who made a list of her "sugar feelings." Joanne is an adult and was able to articulate the profile pretty clearly. You will see these things in your sugar sensitive children even if they don't have words for them.

• feeling inadequate
• having low self-esteem
• feeling victimized
• taking things personally
• feeling that life is out of control
• feeling overwhelmed
• overreacting to criticism
• living in a "twilight zone"

There is not a sugar feeling listed here that I have not experienced. I no longer feel any of these feelings on a regular basis. I'm not saying that I no longer ever have a sugar feeling because I do when my food is off. So those are some of the "bad" feelings that I tried to live with before becoming steady on this program. How about the flip side?

• feeling confident
• loving oneself
• thinking responsively and reflectively
• being other-centered
• feeling mobilized and able to take action
• thinking clearly and being able to focus
• having hope
• feeling empowered
• staying on an even keel emotionally

Joanne has captured the essence of the change in beta-endorphin. We called untreated low beta-endorphin the "sugar feelings" phase. When I learned about the relationship of beta-endorphin to self-esteem, I was floored. I often tell the story of working on my Ph.D. research, sitting in the library, and reading a huge text on substance abuse. It must have weighed 20 pounds, and I was squinting to read the tiny text. When I came to a section that talked about the effect of heroin (a beta-endorphin drug) on self-esteem, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. Literally. The text talked about heroin withdrawal and stated that there continued to be "feelings of decreased self-esteem up to 6 months after going off the drug." The implications of this sentence to me were tremendous. I had already learned that sugar activates beta-endorphin, just as heroin does. I made the connection between sugar and self-esteem. The text was suggesting that low self-esteem was a function of withdrawal. My own clinical experience told me that low self-esteem precedes drug use and is one of the primary factors in drug-seeking behavior. Reading that sentence was one of those moments I will remember forever. It literally changed the course of my life.
...................

Very simply, here are the author's seven steps to remedy:


1. Eat breakfast with protein
2. Journal what you eat and how you feel
3. Eat three meals a day with protein
4. Take the recommended vitamins and have a potato before bed
5. Shift from white foods to brown foods
6. Reduce or eliminate sugars
7. Create a new life (new interests, activities, etc.)

It took us about six months to implement the diet changes for our girl. She now is happy with whole grain breads and pastas, will eat pasta sauce with meat, pizza with sauce-cheese-pepperoni-olives, more vegetables, and is generally much better nourished. She is still a picky eater to some degree, and unfortunately will get sweets/candy when away from home. But at home she has sugar-free Jell-O available for cravings.

Her mother made some major mistakes with her. She did not demand participation in a sport. That's going to change in high school next year. Endorphins replacement! A busy teenager is producing endorphins.

Here's the web site for the author: http://www.radiantrecovery.com/

This "sugar sensitivity" may not be the full answer to your daughter's struggle, but it would at least give you some tools that could help with nutrition and weight. I recommend that you do some reading about this.

I didn't ask if your daughter has highs and lows every day. That could be a clue regarding the blood sugar swings.

Best of luck! Keep us posted on your progress.

[blueraven95]

62. I want to second this -

my first thought when reading the OP, was get your daughter to a doctor. Extreme weight gain can be caused by something more than just poor eating habits. Hormone levels out of control or syndromes like PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), among others, could contribute to both the weight gain and school problems (possibly problems focusing, thinking clearly, that kind of thing). People with PCOS in particular tend to crave carbs, which are really harmful to them, and it tends to show up around puberty or so (and it tends to have symptoms that she may feel uncomfortable talking to her father about, so you may not know about them). However, I am in no way saying that she has this condition, only that it is one of many which she could have, including learning disabilities like other people have mentioned, and should be tested for. It could also be a combination of problems.

Of course, it could be that it is not a medical problem at all and she is just trying to punish you, but that suggests some anger/depression and seeing a therapist could be helpful. In that case, you should ask her doctor to recommend a good therapist, and if she doesn't like him/her than keep asking for more recommendations. There is nothing worse than being forced (as she might see it) with a doctor you can't open up to.

Good Luck!

[LibDemAlways]

13. I have a daughter in the 8th grade, too.

The only way I can get her to study is to study with her. I supervise her homework everyday and, when she has a test coming up, I review the material with her. If I left her to do it on her own, forget about it. She'd be off texting her friends or playing computer games.

[jobycom]

27. We have limited success with that.

She will either stall and not do anything, or she will basically get her mother to do the homework for her, and then fail her tests. (I won't do the work for her, so she just stalls with me). She seems to try really hard at not doing her work, even if she's got no other alternatives.

[LibDemAlways]

32. Have you thought of enlisting a high school

or college student to tutor her, someone closer to her own age she can relate to? If she's a procrastinator or is stalling, it might be helpful for her to know the clock is running and her tutor only has so much time to devote to this.

I understand your frustration, but some of it is just because that's how kids are at 13/14. It's awfully hard to get them motivated.

20 years ago I taught 7th and 8th grade at a private school in Southern Cal. Many of the kids came from families of high achievers, and many were in show biz. John Wayne's grandson was in my class and he was failing everything. Never turned in an assignment or studied for a test. I dreaded the first parent-teacher conference with his mom (Wayne's daughter) thinking she'd blame me. When I handed her the report card, she surprisingly put it back down, smiled and said, "My son is a smart, capable kid. One day he'll get it together. He's only 13. He has plenty of time." I've never forgotten that.

While I would explore every possible avenue to try and get her motivated, I think ultimately your daughter will come around when she's ready.

[marzipanni]

53. I had a friend from K-12 and beyond whose family studied together,

three girls and one boy with their books spread out over the dining table (they ate in the kitchen).
They didn't have a television. I was kind of envious because all four of those kids were on the honor roll, and I was the youngest in my family, and my three older brothers were on their own, at college, and working. I struggled to do my homework but felt the pull of the television in the next room. I always loved PBS, old movies, etc., and enjoyed the sociability of being with my parents and brothers instead of being required to be sequestered in my room.
My twelve-year-old, sixth-grader son is doing very well, and feels remiss if he doesn't do all of his homework, but he hasn't gotten to the doldrums a lot of kids get to when they're a bit older.
I think I'll try to take a course in something eventually, partly so that he will have someone to study with! Maybe that would be helpful for your daughter, too, when she's a little older and doesn't need so much prompting from you, but would appreciate some companionship while doing homework.


edit: punctuation

[marzipanni]

14. Involve your daughter in finding solutions

It will help her feel that she has control over her life.

<snip>
The purpose of this article is to provide educators with a step-by-step problem-solving process that may be useful for working with children and adolescents in grades K-12. This article describes a problem-solving process derived from de Shazer's (1994) Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT). This solution-focused problem-solving process assists children and adolescents to make positive behavioral changes in their lives. The solution-focused problem-solving process focuses on (1) what students are doing that seems to be helpful, (2) how students can identify the essence of their goal (Woodward, 2000) so the goal is specific and concrete, and (3) how students can make and implement plans for accomplishing the goal. The solution-focused problem-solving perspective emphasizes that children and adolescents can become stuck by focusing on their past and current “bad” behavior and failures versus focusing on future solutions. How does focusing on future solutions assist children and adolescents to make effective behavioral changes?
http://www.ncacasi.org/jsi/2000v1i2/problem_solv_4
(I remember hearing about this method, so I googled "ask child for their solution for bad grades".)

[jobycom]

21. That looks good, thank you!

That helps my thinking on some of what has worked, and what hasn't, and it addresses what I think is her basic problem. Thanks.

[Zookeeper]

15. Your story is totally familiar to me....

My 16 year old has ADD (not ADHD) and has been struggling with homework issues since middle school. He's a very bright, sensitive, creative kid, but he feels like a failure after so many years of, well, failing. He can be very difficult to live with, although he behaves well every where else.

The traditional school structure (I call it the "factory model") does not work well for him, and it didn't work for me, either.

We tried two different charter schools for middle school that didn't work (one, mostly computer based, the other, very traditional with smaller class sizes).

He has seen a counselor for a few years which is helpful, but not really a solution. He likes the high school he is going to and his grades have improved since last year. However, it is a daily (!!!!) struggle to get him on track which he considers "nagging" and it frequently involves a lot of high drama that doesn't actually result in getting homework done.

What I realized recently is that he would be an "A" student if it wasn't for the homework requirement. He's a good writer, reader and test taker. But, it's very difficult for him to sit down and do what feels like "busy work."

There is, yet another, charter school we are going to look at, that is project oriented and doesn't require homework. Since my son likes his school this will be a hard sell.

I understand your frustration. It sounds like you are doing a good job of parenting. Please feel free to PM me if you need to compare notes.

Zookeeper

[JVS]

16. tell her she's fucking up, and if she doesn't work harder she'll keep fucking up...

and eventually if she fucks up enough she'll be a fuckup.

[jobycom]

23. Yeah, yeah.

:rofl: I know what you mean. I have caught myself falling into that trap. I try to avoid it and be constructive. I don't always succeed. I try to balance that out by focusing on what she does well. We can sit and chat for hours, and often do, about music and rock bands, for instance, and that builds her confidence. But it's hard not to scream "You're going to screw up your life if you don't try harder!" from time to time. Or, "I'll straighten you out, you thoughtless little pig!"

Actually, after hearing some of the Alec Baldwin debate around here, I asked her how she'd respond if I got mad and called her a thoughtless little pig. She just went "Pshww."

[philosophie_en_rose]

38. And then she can be President!

:rofl:

[murielm99]

17. I would quite seriously

think about visiting a few weight-loss camps.

Find the ones with good reputations, and see them for yourselves. Find out the staffs' credentials. I would imagine that they have dealt with other eighth graders like your daughter.

Maybe you will decide that you do not want to send her to such a place. Maybe they will give you a place to start working on her problems.

Of course, this only addresses part of the problem. Seek other counseling, too. It would probably have to be family counseling, even though you are no longer together.

She could be punishing you and your ex as much as anything.

Good luck to you and your daughter.

[datasuspect]

20. buy her a guitar or some other kind of musical instrument

school isn't all it's cracked up to be. school is like a conformist factory.

[jobycom]

25. I know what you're saying.

I've tried to encourage her in other things she does like, but of course if I push her, she stops liking it. She used to love piano, but she's stopped playing it. She wants to be a movie director, so we gave her a video camera for Christmas. It just sits there. I wouldn't care about the grades as much if she was doing something else. But so far, she isn't--her school pattern is the same as everything else she does. She is really good as a friend, though, and maybe that's her direction. Maybe she'll do something social.

I always liked and hated school. I liked the learning, I hated the conformity. So I learned, got good grades just because I like learning, and fought the conformity. Worked for me. I don't know what works for her, I guess that's what I'm trying to help her find.

Thanks for the advice.

[datasuspect]

29. sometimes i think parenting nowadays is confounded with so much focus on "goal orientation"

that letting someone "be" or discover themselves gets lost in the pursuit of aiming a child toward what they will "become."

i wonder if it would help to focus on what she "is." now.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

22. I don't know what to say, only that it seems common.

I'm the kid who does everything at the last moment and then aces it, gets A's and high B's with hardly any effort at all, even in upper-level classes. I'm probably not the right person to ask at all, since though I'm abominably lazy, I hate failing and, being an only child, have always had to learn to do work on my own. I hate school as well, since it's so ridiculously conformist, and get a kick out of circumventing "the system" in various ways while appearing, on transcript, to be a model or somewhat-model student.

I'll ask you this: What does your daughter LIKE to do?

[jobycom]

24. You sound like I was as a student.

Maybe it's the writer in both of us. :) That's part of my problem (and my spouse's). School was easy for us, and we never had to work at it. Almost every bit of homework I did in high school was done at 2 am the day it was do, while watching a late night horror flick. Or else it was done in the break between classes just before it was due. We never had this problem, so we don't really know how to relate. We were both like you--the rebellious model student. She's got the rebellion-while-appearing-well-behaved routine down pat, though I don't think I ever really connected that to the way I behaved until just now, but she doesn't get the grades.

She likes music (listening, mostly), choir, social activities (chatting on the internet, hanging out with friends). Horses. Movies--she wants to be director. But any time I try to get her to pursue those things, she loses interest. So I know not to push her on them. But then she never gets any better at them, and doesn't learn how to get better, so I know she's going to be frustrated.

She's a wonderful person, she really is. But I'm so worried she's going to be frustrated her whole life if she doesn't learn how to pursue what she wants. I wouldn't even be as upset about the grades if she was doing something else instead.

Darn, nothing can make you feel as worthless and incompetent as failing as a parent! :rofl:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. I won't deny that some people DO fail as parents, and probably ought to have been sterilized.

I don't think that's you, however. It sounds like you're trying to work at this, which is important.

/useless platitudes

[jobycom]

28. useless platitudes have their uses

Thanks. I've seen much worse parents than me. :) Doesn't really make me feel more successful though.

[Orangepeel]

40. maybe she needs someone other than you to encourage her

I don't have any kids myself (I have a great stepdaughter for whom I don't bear any parenting responsibility) so I am completely talking out of my ass. But:

1. I know that you are a good parent. I can tell by the concern evident in your posts in this thread and by what she said her reaction would be if you went "Alec Baldwin" on her. My husband would never speak to his daughter that way, but if he somehow lost it and did, she'd completely blow it off. She knows how much he loves her and your daughter knows how much you love her.

2. You say she reacts negatively when you push her, perhaps as a control mechanism, perhaps to punish you. Is there any way to subtly hook her up with a "mentor" that could encourage her in film making or music? She might have fun because she's social and likes people, and, although she has a good relationship with you, maybe she needs something of hers, that she has control over separate from the family.

:shrug:

[jobycom]

59. That's a beautiful idea.

Thanks, that's a great suggestion. That fits a lot of my observations. She tries too hard to please me, I think. Not because she has to win my approval, I hope (I push her a little, but I make sure to be positive more often, especially to counter her mother's yelling), but because I'm the one role model she looks up to. Her mother is a wonderful success in business (she's not a bad person, really, despite the impression I've probably given here!), and I hope our kid is picking up some of that, but her interests are more artistic, and that's not my spouse's gig.

A mentor might help her figure out what part of her interests are hers, instead of mine. Plus, just a different influence might help her. She loved her piano lessons when she was younger, until her teacher started getting more critical and even angry at her. Maybe she does need that type of approval and input. She doesn't get enough of it from her teachers, but she responds well to the teachers who do give it to her.

Wow, having said that, it's hard even contemplating encouraging her to turn to someone else! :)

[av8rdave]

30. A couple of ideas

My kids are from my first marriage, though they live(d) with me (son is off to college now). As any children of divorce, I set them up with a counselor. I wasn't looking for any particular diagnosis or treatment. I just felt that they needed an educated, neutral, confidential "third party" they could share their feelings, fears and frustrations with. I have no clue what either of them may or may not have discussed with her, nor do I want to know. I do believe it was extremely helpful.

Another thought: Have you considered having her tested for Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)? It's more prevalent than many people realize, and in females it is usually not accompanied with hyperactivity, making it very difficult to recognize through day to day observation. My daughter has ADD. I didn't used to believe in medication to treat it (I thought it was a "parenting pill"). However, when she goes untreated, she exhibits many of the traits and characteristics you describe. Her grades suffer, schoolwork doesn't get done, or gets done and never turned in, and she will do what she can to try to cover for it all.

This comparison in no way means your daughter has ADD. That requires a special evaluation. However, it might be a possibility worth considering.

Good luck with your situation!

[jobycom]

60. I have and am considering looking into that.

Like you, I'm not a fan of medication, and I'm hoping for other solutions. I really don't think that's it, but I won't rule anything out. Thanks. She doesn't fit the classic image of ADD, but I'll look into what you say about girls not reacting the same as boys. She has an ADD friend (who was just expelled from school for selling her medicine to another student. :( ), and they seem very different. I actually encourage her to hang out with this friend because she has personality traits (aggressiveness, initiative) that I my daughter should pick up. Of course, now I'm worried she'll pick up a little too much initiative from this friend... Where's the grimace smilie when you need it...

[GenDem]

31. I know how frustrating this is

Our situation with my daughter is very similar to Zookeepers, and with yours. ADD, diagnosed when my daughter was a Freshman, after numerous rounds of testing that began in 2nd grade. She always tested above the line where services would have been provided, so we were left to fend for ourselves for years. A couple years ago (my daughter was a Junior) the school gave in to a 504 plan, which allowed her to get extra help studying and home work help.


She began counseling around 5th grade, and saw this counselor all the way through school. One of the major issues with my daughter was and still is her constant need to be socially interacting with her peers. She was very popular all through school, which in some ways was a blessing, but her social life and interaction with friends always came before everything else. When she was younger we did all the monitoring and put controls on the internet and phone use, but she was very sly. I can't tell you how many times we caught her on the phone past midnight after we had gone to bed. She also was often times embroiled in some sort of dramatic crisis.

Her grades followed a similar pattern as your daughters. Starting out strong, tanking in the middle of the school year, and spending the last five - six weeks needing to ace everything and sometimes extra credit projects were also a necessity, just to pass some of her classes. No matter what we tried to do the pattern was pretty much the same each year.

She graduated last year, and started Junior college last fall. She plays volleyball on her college team, so her coach took over our role of being the nagger last fall. Her first semester appeared to be exactly like high school. This semester she likes all her classes and is doing well -- I think.

Funny thing is her peers were all National Honor Society members. I could never figure out why she didn't want to be more like them with the school work.


I've got to be honest. It has been exhausting. I'm sending you positive vibes, because I can totally relate. In my daughters case, the bad grades were always a symptom, so the counseling was very much needed. I actually believe that without it, the situation could have been much worse. I've actually wondered about bi-polar, as it will mimic ADD.

[jobycom]

61. Thanks, that sounds a lot like her, except the friends part

My kid has no trouble making friends with the Honor Society types, and a couple of them are, but she seems to like the slacker/underachievers better lately. She has one friend who keeps making up stories of attackers and rare diseases (my daughter still believes her), and a couple of others who are borderline emo. Then again, I hung out with that same type of crowd until high school, come to think of it.

You've given me encouragement and fear, I hope you know! :)

[madeline_con]

34. Possibilities....

1. She "doesn't like" one or more of her teachers.

Kids often shut down, and refuse to do anything "for" an especially hated teacher, even though the work is to their own benefit.

2. She's being bullied.

Kids can manifest fear in a lot of ways. Check that possibility.

3. She "loves" some kid who never does anything, and wants to look cool.

4. She may be experimenting with substances, or has met some new "friends" who are influencing her to do things she wasn't doing previously.

Suggestions:

1.Take away the internet acces for all ecept legit homework.

2. Ask about the teacher's relationship with your daughter. I had the same problem with my 6th grade son, and found out the teacher really just did not like him. Her attitude rubbed off on the class, he complained he had no friends. Long story short, after transferring to another teacher's class, he's back to his normal self.

Good luck. It seems everyone goes through some sort of "trouble" about middle school age. :(

[jobycom]

63. Thanks. I know the answer to most of those.

1) She does much better with teachers she likes. Two of her teachers remind her of me (other students say they are like me, too), and those are her better classes. For some reason, I've never thought about that before... And her least favorite teacher reminds her of her mother... Yes, that makes me prouder than I want to admit. :(

2) No bullies. She'd tell me. I know all parents say that, but I'm very sure of it. Plus, she's been like this since first grade, and until fifth grade I knew all the students and parents in her classes.

3) She's not trying to impress anyone. She's the leader of her group.

4) This one I have some concerns about. It's definitely the type of thing she'd lie about, and I know some of her friends experiment. If she does, it has to be at school. There's not enough time otherwise. And this wouldn't be the root of her problems, since she's been this way since first grade.

On your suggestions:

1) We try this. She finds other things to distract her. When we take away everything, she daydreams.

2) You are convincing me that may be a bigger problem than I thought. I know what teachers she likes and which she doesn't, and that does line up with her worst grades. As empathic as she is, that may be a bigger issue than I've thought before.

[mike_c]

35. age and experience are the only things that can convey maturity, I'm afraid....

I never completed 10th grade, despite being an intelligent kid. I got F's in just about everything year after year, simply because I wasn't interested in school work. Years later I got my GED-- walked into the testing center on a whim with no prior preparation and just sat the test, and passed it easily. Went to college eventually. Now I have a PhD and a career that I love.

The point I'm trying to make is that ultimately, you might have to simply accept that your daughter isn't ready to get serious about her education or her future yet, and perhaps the best way you can help her is to begin figuring out how to ease her way down the path that SHE'S choosing. If she's smart, she'll realize her mistakes later, and will have lots of opportunities to make up for them.

[mzteris]

36. to reiterate

1. Counseling seems to be in order for the passive-aggressive behaviours. The whole family dynamics/divorce thing.

2. Dietician/nutritionist. More physical exercise. Test for food allergies. People often crave what they're allergic to (yeah, weird.) She may have some sensory integration issues. When I was younger I NEVER EVER liked - or ate - "mixed foods". Textures/tastes that were 'mixed up' grossed me out. (So no gravy or sauce on anything. No butter or jelly on toast. No milk on cereal. Peanut butter sandwiches - no jelly, etc...)


3. Undiagnosed learning differences. Note - I said DIFFERENCES - not necessarily disability.
It's like being a detective to figure out what the problem is. ADD? maybe. Executive Function Disorder - also a possibility. A neuropsychologist's evaluation might help sort it out.


Here are some books for you to read: The Myth of Laziness and A Mind at a Time both by Mel Levine. There are some other good ones out there, but he's a pretty easy read and lays it all out there. See if you get some ideas about what the problems are and start narrowing it down.

[philosophie_en_rose]

37. A few thoughts.

It sounds like your daughter had some of the same problems that I had in school. I hated school, because I rarely learned anything and needed more challenging work. Therefore, most of the work was just pointless to me. I did well academically, but only did enough work to earn the A. (For instance, if there were 10 assignments, I'd earn 100% on nine and not do the tenth). I didn't really care about school, until I was able to take college courses instead of the last two years of high school.

My suggestions to you are to help her find a supportive group of friends (if she doesn't have one now), to change the way that you exercise and eat (and then invite her to join you without pressure. As a help to you, instead of a suggestion to her that she will internalize.) Finally, meet with your ex and her teachers about her assignments. If she is already capable of the work, maybe she needs to be challenged in some way. Or maybe she doesn't understand what's going on and doesn't want to turn anything in that's not perfect. Maybe kids are teasing or distracting her. Maybe you can work a system out with the teacher. (My cousin has her son fill out a form everyday with assignments, due dates, and teacher signatures. He sits far away from his friends).

Those are just ideas, of course. My gut feeling is that she would do the work, if it was either (1) easy to complete or (2) fun and challenging. Perhaps she's too embarassed to ask for help or is very distracted with something she's not willing to talk about. Maybe a counselor would help or maybe a counselor would make her feel embarassed or that you think she's odd.

I don't know. Maybe just talking to her and asking her what she can do to make this work. Maybe you could ask her to propose a schedule or a system to be sure that she gets her work done. :shrug:

[jobycom]

64. I talked with her about some of this.

I read this post yesterday, and she and I spent a lot of time with her yesterday. Some of the post really doesn't fit her--she doesn't get A's, she gets high B's, but only when she tries. She doesn't have a handle on any of her subjects, but she can learn what she has to fairly quickly when she forces herself. She really doesn't focus on her grades, and doesn't know at any time what she needs to pass. It's more like she's completely detached from school than that she finds it boring or too challenging.

But one point I brought up to her was what you said about being afraid to turn in imperfect work. That struck a note, and I mentioned it to her, indirectly, saying some people were afraid to try to get good grades because they were afraid of trying and failing. She admitted to feeling that way a lot of times.

So I need to pursue the confidence issue more, I think. Thanks. :)

[JitterbugPerfume]

39. obese kids take a lot of BS in school

from their peers. Maybe she is depressed.

I have no solutions for you .

[jobycom]

65. I'm worried about that, too, but her grade problem predated the weight issue.

I am worried about her emotional state in high school, though. So far it hasn't been much of an issue. She tends to be a leader in her group, and people flock to her. I worry that in high school she'll get more harassment, though. Plus, I know she's had a series of unreturned crushes this year, so it may be starting to affect her.

It's an issue I'm definitely trying to deal with. Thanks.

[Writer]

41. Let me share my experience...

I don't know if you can take anything from this, but I did the same thing when I was in Middle School. I was a 96-average student in the Sixth Grade in a top 10 school district then fell to C's. Here's why:

My parents divorced when I was eight, and my father lived in another city. Any free time I had was customarily absorbed by visiting with him. Forget being able to simply enjoy myself. It was all for him, and fuck me if I ever wanted free time for myself.

My mother was vicious, angry, and emotionally abusive. She was a real bitch. I was alone most of the time, had no real support for any goals of my own. It was all about her, and at my expense. I had to find ways to emotionally SURVIVE, and this distracted me from my studies. They just didn't seem important anymore. When I started my period, for instance, I so despised her and distrusted her that I didn't tell her when it happened. I was all alone there. I then was sent home with an "accident" from school because I didn't properly care for myself.

Your situation is not like this situation, but all I can say is that in divorce situations, parents (and in my case, also older siblings) are always clamoring for your attention and are trying to CONTROL you... in your case not in malice, but suddenly the child focuses more on maintaining the happiness of everyone involved in the divorce instead of focusing on his or her own life. At least, this was my experience.

If I may, may I suggest that you might be trying a little TOO hard to be there as a dad? I commend you for your efforts, but your daughter does seem to be spending a lot of time as a double-duty child and not focusing on her own life. Now I take this from the little bit that you wrote in your post, but maybe there's a little crumb of truth here?

Good luck to you and your daughter. :hug:

Writer.

PS: My mom was more apt to blame my period for my resulting depression, not my circumstances (and God forbid she hold herself accountable for her own behavior). I think your daughter's weight gain is more a symptom of something else... and all it may take is a therapist who can just "hear her out." Again, the very best of luck to you. :)

[jobycom]

67. Not too similar, really

First, her grade patterns were there long before the separation. Some of the problem started when she got a little sister. My mother and one of my nieces are both have sisters 6 years younger than them, and both talk about how much their sister messed up their lives. So does my kid.

Second, I spend more waking hours with the kids than my spouse, except weekends, and do the cooking for them, so it's not like I pick them up and make them hang out at my place with nothing they want to do. I drive them to their friends' houses, take them to their events, pretty much leave them along a lot of time, except for basic parenting, like helping with homework. If I wasn't doing this, they'd be home alone, with no one to take them places.

Thanks for saying that. Things may change, and I like knowing what I need to try to avoid. :)

[Kali]

42. subjects that are interesting?

not to be flip, but I never studied either. I can obsess over something that is interesting to me, but if it isn't...it is a huge struggle to get motivated.

Sounds like she needs a little help working out some emotional issues. Find a good therapist - ask at the school or your physician for a reference.

[stuntcat]

43. give her my advice

I didn't study, I made it through school with almost straight C's (the average between 95's and F's) even though I could have made straight A's if I'd just cared to.
I never even learned how to apply myself in school.
I dropped out of the college that I probably barely got into.
So now I've gotten nowhere, I regret the money my family spent sending me to school and I regret not caring about my grades, not having the wisdom to understand what it meant for the rest of my life. It wasn't that I led some wild life that wasted my time, I just couldn't bother myself to spend time studying and now I'll regret it forever.
Tell her what I said, from Me to Her. She sounds like a great person who should go a long way in the next few years if she focusses. Tell her when it's time to sit down and study just to think of the next 50 or 60 years :o

[MilesColtrane]

44. She wants to fit in with other kids.

She's obviously smart.

If she really studied and did homework she'd probably be at the top of her class.
But, in this country, smart isn't "cool".

She also probably finds the way subjects are taught incredibly boring. Teachers have to teach to the slowest in the class.

Try to dangle some long term reward in front of her. If she gets all B's or higher she gets a trip somewhere, or something she really wants.

Also, you might try killing your TV. And, I wouldn't let her on an internet connected computer until she's completed her homework for the day.
We all know how this typing, chatting, commenting, in cyberspace can be just another time wasting addiction.

[jobycom]

68. Nah, she's the leader when it comes to friend making.

She makes friends easily and often, from everyone from the emos to the preppies. She doesn't worry about cool, and from what I hear from her friends, others start trying to be like her. It's the one area where she's overtly confident in herself. I now she's hiding issues, but no more than most teens.

And I don't know if she pays enough attention to know whether the subjects are boring. She just doesn't like the demands on her time, it seems to me.

I've literally offered her everything from money to a horse to get her to try harder. She really doesn't care, she'd rather have her time unencumbered by schoolwork than have stuff. I'm kind of proud of her resolve and independence, I just wish it was over something other than schoolwork!

[Joe Fields]

45. Call them a "selfish pig?" just kidding.

[pitohui]

46. i have no clue just a few random thoughts and well wishes

sometimes a person will keep their ambition and dreams to themselves because if you keep digging up a seed, then it won't grow, and sharing the dream kills it

example, similar to when you gave your daughter the video camera, you put too much pressure on her dream of being a film maker and killed it, because then you made the game too high stakes, most wanna-be film-makers do fail even if they try very, very hard, and it's just...it's just pressure, you know? when i was v. young and my parents put too much pressure on me about music and the arts, i would drop those pursuits, because i did not really want to be in such high stakes careers, i just wanted to enjoy the beauty of these things and my parents' well meant "help" took away the beauty and the pleasure and replaced it w. stress

so i can see keeping things to her self, i do the same as far as hopes and dreams -- sometimes the best thing a parent can do is stand down and give a child space

however, taking it so far that ahead of time she deliberately refuses to study and deliberately fails, so that there is NO dream, no matter how small, that she can hope to succeed at -- that is taking it too much to an extreme and i'm not sure what to say or suggest

i was always self-motivated to do well in subjects where my parents had little or no input or interest, really mostly the math and sciences for my part -- my thought was that i didn't want to close any doors if i didn't have to

8th grade, she still has time, but if she's still fucking up in high school, then she's closing her own doors

i have no idea what you as a parent can do about it tho, other than follow the advice of some others and be sure there is no medical problem (ADD, clinical depression both DO spring to mind, however there can be a hidden health problem making her tired that is also contributing to the weight so i would get her a PHYSICAL check up as well)

nagging someone to eat and exercise is badgering by this age, i don't think a father in particular can say anything that will have a positive rather than a negative impact on a daughter's weight

[elocs]

47. Consider Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD).

My nephew was much like that, starting in junior high school where his grades started slipping even though he tested very high in the State tests. I remember talking with him at Christmastime when he was in 8th grade about putting it together the next year when he started high school. He claimed, "no problem", he could do it if he wanted. But it didn't and it only got worse with skipping school and just staying home, flunking classes, losing homework. He claimed he did not like school, but would flunk classes and have to go to night school where he would flunk them again and have to go to summer school. But in his science class he got an A on one of the hardest tests of the year and his teacher was apologetic when she called and said she would have to flunk him because he would not do his homework in spite of the fact that he aced the tests.

My nephew kept getting further and further behind in high school and it only got worse. His stepfather simply thought he was lazy. The truth is that he could do the work, but he couldn't. Halfway through his junior year it was obvious that he would never graduate, so he went to the Lincoln Challenge Academy run by the National Guard for troubled youths. It was run like a military school and my nephew thrived under the discipline because given his own options he would not do the work expected. He graduated and easily got his GED at the end of what would have been his junior year in high school (this was allowed in Illinois for this special program). The problem is that he became enamored with the military and its promises and a year later he is in the Army and most likely on a path which will take him to Iraq.

The long and short of it is that these kids with ADHD tend to be very intelligent, having high IQs, but they do not have the discipline and attention span to do the work expected of them in school--public or private, good or bad. My sister went through hell with this kid, who could do the work, but apparently chose not to do it. The truth is that he could not do it as was expected. So round and round they went with skipping school and classes, constantly flunking and yet being able to get A's on tests. This may not be your answer, but it merits checking out before it gets too late for your daughter.

[jpgray]

48. I have had the exact same problem

How does she spend her time? Does she spend a lot of time on the phone, online, engaged in some engrossing hobby, or watching TV? Limit the worst time-sink, if you can. Limit it for a few weeks next semester and see what she does. She'll hate it, at first, but she'll likely get bored and, having nothing to do, will see schoolwork as more of a viable option as opposed to less interesting than so many other things she could be doing. The pattern you describe is that of someone who is very adept at pouring a lot of time into hobbies, passing interests, friends, etc. Those activities definitely have some value, but they can likely suck up an entire day and are an excellent way to avoid schoolwork indefinitely. The internet in particular is something one can waste his or her whole day on. Once the late schoolwork starts to pile up, the amount of time needed to set things right gets larger and larger, and so it's easy to claim "I don't have time for this today," especially if one is a perfectionist. Let me know if any of this sounds familiar, and good luck!

[jobycom]

70. Passing interests more than hobbies.

She spends most of her time now on the Internet chatting with friends and watching videos. When we restrict that, she does whatever else she can aside from her work. At one point last year we had her grounded from tv, internet, phone, going out, and pretty much everything else except studying, for a couple of months, at least. It had no affect. She'd sit in front of her books at the dining room table, looking like she was trying really hard. But she was daydreaming. I could ask her what problem she was on, even what subject book she had open, and she couldn't tell me.

It's not that she's distracted, it's that she actively avoids doing schoolwork. That's why I think it is rebellion. Pleasant, easy rebellion, which makes it even worse.

[skygazer]

49. She sounds like me as a kid

I don't recall ever doing a scrap of homework throughout my high school/middle school years. I aced every quiz and test I took but failed classes because I didn't do the homework.

There were two reasons in my case. One was I felt like it was a waste of my time. I knew and understood the material, I knew I could pass all the tests and the homework just felt like redundancy.

My other reason was my home life which sucked. Failing classes was my way of getting my father's attention. It sounds like your daughter has her parents' attention so I'm not sure what your options are.

My daughter went through a hard time in 8th grade, most of it social. I ended up homeschooling her for a year because school was a nightmare for her socially. She was a lot better about schoolwork that way - I'm not sure if it was because she had all my attention or if I made it a little more fun but she did it all and did it well. Taking that break did her good - when she returned, she was ahead in all her classes and she has excelled as an adult. As a matter of fact, she's considering law school. So that's one idea.

I don't know. It sounds like she's not really looking at school as a means to any end. I would see about talking to a school counselor and asking if they have any ideas. I think I'd also talk to her and really push her about what she wants to do with her life. In the end, it is her life but the reality is, it sucks when you reach the age of about 40 and realize you've done nothing with it.

Not much help, I know.

[Breeze54]

51. Has she been tested for Learning Disabilities?

http://www.ldonline.org/article/5985">Is Your Daughter a Daydreamer, Tomboy or "Chatty Kathy"?

snip-->

Many girls with above average IQ can keep it together academically until they hit middle school,
or even high school. As their school life becomes more demanding and complicated in the upper grades,
their problems with concentration, organization and follow-through are more likely to reveal themselves.

[SarahB]

52. I've been there to a less severe degree.

My daughter is a freshman in high school. Her father and I divorced when she was in 7th grade. I also remarried 3 months ago. Her father and I share custody of her and her younger brothers and are also amicable at this point. Eighth grade was probably the toughest year- especially the beginning of the year. My daughter's grades dropped from A's and B's to B's and C's and her online time skyrocketed. We did send her to counseling. It's not about just the grades. The grades are a manifestation of everything else going on. Think about it- her family changed radically, she's going through massive physical changes, friendships are changing as a normal course of her age, and there's probably more pressure because of all that than she's ever experienced.

Hanging out online and chatting with her friends, getting attention on MySpace or FaceBook from friends sure provides a lot more immediate gratification. However, one thing my daughter had before, during, and after this challenging time was basketball (since 4th grade). I'd venture to say that after her first year of high school basketball, she had herself together again. She went back to most B's and some A's (though is in a number of honors courses) and while I still think she can do better, I'm content here. She's has that intrinsic motivation and can see that Point A (success in school) leads to Point B (college a decent future) down the road.

My advice for what it's worth. You and your ex need to set concrete boundaries on computer time and at this point, it needs to be strict- probably no more than a 1/2 hour a day. Set passwords on the computer to limit access. She has no business being there so much if she's not getting her responsibilities done. She can earn some time back through better grades. I'd also do the counseling. Therapy is rarely a bad thing. She has a chance to talk over things in her life with an unemotional third party. If nothing else, it can be really clarifying. Last, I'd try to involve her in an activity she enjoys especially over the Summer. If it's a sport, all the better. If she's not a "jock" even something nontraditional like martial arts or golf. Just something where she can get herself moving. If she's interested in other things like music or theater, get her involved in something like that. She needs to get out in the real world, be active and while the computer stuff is a fact of life for those of us raising adolescents, it doesn't have to be their main priority. Basically, your daughter needs something in her life that's not only social, but something she can do to feel good about herself enough to regain that intrinsic motivation to do what she is capable of doing.

Take care. It's tough stuff. :hug:

[jobycom]

71. She had the same pattern long before the separation

Since first grade. Even before, really.

We've limited and eliminated her internet exposure (and before that television, or whatever she was using as a distraction then). She will sit and daydream. We've attached rewards to doing more work. That worked in first grade (I drew up a beautiful smiley face chart for her), but it hasn't since. It may be that I haven't hit on the right reward, but I think that she, like me, just doesn't care much about rewards.

And I've tried getting her involved in other activities. That's how the computer started. :) But also, piano and horse riding (both of which she requested). She started off strong on both, and then, just like in school, her attention fell away from it. Same with rockclimbing, bikes... Her only interests are social, and when we restrict that (and that's what the Internet is to her), she seems to spend more school time on social stuff and even less on schoolwork.

Argh! I'm glad I'm already bald! :)

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

54. No idea. I gave up on studying and homework in the 4th grade.

To this day I have NO idea how I ever got out of high school.

[seemunkee]

55. That was my daughters pattern

100s or 0s don't average out very well, do they?
Our daughter was definately suffering from depression and it took us quite a while to find the right therapist and medications to help her. Since getting her on the right meds and dealing with her severe sleep problems she has made a complete turn around.

What has she said when you asked her what the problem was?
I would have her talk to a therapist, find someone she can open up to.
One thing the school did that helped was a weekly progress report that she had to take to each teacher on Friday and get signed. ?That way she couldn't get too far behind without us knowing about it. Kind of late in the school year to start this but perhaps next year if she still has problems.

[jobycom]

56. Thanks, everyone. I ran out of time to respond individually, but I read

every post, and have a lot of ideas now. Thank you. :hi:

[Dora]

57. I was like your daughter in some respects.

When I was your daughters age, I was an unambitious student. I didn't study, I didn't do homework. I was smart, nice, happy, had friends, and depressed as all get out. The school work bored me - what was the point of doing x-y-z if I could just read the handout, take the test and pass it, thereby proving that I knew the material and that the homework was unnecessary?

But I was also depressed. My mother dealt with her issues by isolating herself in her work. I felt estranged from my father (they divorced when I was a baby). My stepdad was loving, but left me on my own nearly always. I was fully capable of self-amusement and taking care of myself after school and I'd been doing it for years, but we had just moved to a new neighborhood where I had no friends, and my parents didn't encourage me to see friends from my old school or neighborhood. The kids in the new school were unwelcoming and outright hostile. I was lonely and left alone. On top of that, my brother was in high school and getting into drugs and truancy, and attracting what little parental attention there was. It was a terrible lonesome time for me, and one of the ways my depression manifested was in intentionally avoiding, postponing, and not-doing schoolwork. It brought me attention and the threat of structure (I felt my life had lost all its structure).

Please get your daughter to a counselor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. Lots of good advice in this thread

I'll just reiterate the ones that resonate with me:

1) The carbohydrate addiction leading to obesity and ultimately to a chemical imbalance that causes

2) Depression. Depression isn't just about being morose and weepy. It can manifest itself as lethargy and lack of ambition or concentration.

3) Children of divorced parents may act out their unhappiness. If they know that you value academic achievement, that's where they'll try to "hit" you. As a former academic, I've seen this happen to children of colleagues."Mom, Dad, I'm not going on to eleventh grade. My friends have a band that needs a lead singer, and I'm going to go full time with them." That sort of thing. It gets their parents fretting, which is exactly what they want.

I was an underachiever in high school, although my parents stayed together. There were other issues involved, including undiagnosed depression, the lethargic kind. I never failed anything, but I did the bare minimum amount of schoolwork and spent most of my time reading up on subjects that I was interested in and trying to teach myself languages.

I drifted a bit in college, even though the courses were more interesting and I was able to devise my own curriculum. What saved me ultimately was developing friendships with some of my professors, who served as role models and were willing to listen and provide advice as I dealt with some of the craziness in other areas of my life.

Children sometimes respond better to outside adults than to their parents.

First I'd say that she should be evaluated for both physical and emotional problems and learning disabilities. If those are ruled out (and I bet one of them will be the case), subtly (subtly) steer her into an activity where she can become friends with adults outside the family.

On the carb addiction, try preparing meals that contain NO refined carbs and see what happens: soup and salad with no bread or a protein food with a side of vegetables or even peanut butter on real whole grain bread. See what happens.

[jobycom]

72. Thanks. Keep in mind

the school pattern predates the separation and the weight gain. From first to fifth grade, she was in good physical shape. She had a lot of ear infections as a kid, and I had to cook simple carb free and sugar free for her. Plus, I made my own baby food, all sugar free and whole foods. Her school problems have hung around through perfect diet, great health, a decent parental situation, and the reverse of all of those. Even before her younger sister was born, she fit this pattern.

I think, in fact, that the school problems and the weight gain are caused by the same underlying issues. That's why I don't think I can "fix" either one without figuring it out. She goes for instant, easy gratification, and avoids whatever she doesn't want to do. That's her biggest motivation in everything, in fact. We've had titanic battles to get her to eat vegetables (when she was younger), to go someplace she didn't want to go. We've had cases where we would be walking, and she'd decide she didn't want to walk anymore. She'd stand still, and short of picking her up and carrying her, we couldn't get her to move.

I don't think it's a learning disability, or anything physical. It could be, or it could be an emotional issue. But the more I read advice, and the more I work through the whole picture, the less sure I am of that. There's something in her personality that causes this.

I don't know. Now I'm thinking so much about it nothing makes sense! :) I need to focus on work for a while.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not trying to argue with any of it, I'm trying to apply it and see how it fits. I need to reread this when I'm not hungry at pushed for time at work! :)

[Sequoia]

66. I'm in the same boat. Homework? No way, I just want to play.

She's smarter than most of her classmates but she just will not do her homework. From one battle weary parent to another...good luck,we both need it.

[jobycom]

73. Is she stubborn?

Mine won't do anything she doesn't want to do. She will hurt herself to avoid doing something only mildly unpleasant. She's very polite and sweet, and makes you thing you're just about to persuade her (or make her), but in the end, you've gotten nowhere with her!

It's an admirable trait, if it doesn't cripple her! :rofl:

Good luck back at you! :rofl:

[Sequoia]

74. Yes.

Her dad told her if she failed she'd be taken out of class so she probably thought she'd get to go to another school but of course that won't happen and he doesn't recall saying it. She likes to read her books, even in class, and do projects with anything handy, pencils, paperclips, buttons....anything to avoid homework. We threaten her with no sleepovers, etc., but it doesn't work. I'm not a very good with discipline I'm afraid. I was raised so very strictly, like a miltary school whose tactics I won't use on her.

[JCMach1]

69. She was a lot like me... I did much the same throughout HS...

She needs to learn enough to get by though... Hopefully, she will squeak through.

I was bored out of my farkin' mind... I didn't excel until I hit university.

I am a professor today...

Support her and push her as much as you can...