Watch this movie and then ask yourself if Foie Gras is torture or not

[DS1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRBfATTeD7U&mode=related&search=

I'm no Veggie, I tried being a veggie but hated it, but I do believe in humane slaughter. This isn't even humane slaughter, it's a inhumane existence.

Watch the ducks, see how they try to run away from the 'farmer'. That part is early in the video, so you won't have to wait long to see it. 6 kilos is 13 pounds of grain, for a 4 pound animal. Can you eat 3 times your body weight every day? Would you want to?

[KitchenWitch]

1. It would be torture for me to eat foie gras

:puke:

[DS1]

2. Never had it, never tasted it, don't want it

:shrug:

[Kali]

3. I'm on very slow dial-up and my monitor is failing so I'm not even trying

videos these days, but I have a question. You said a 4 lb duck was being forced 13 lbs of grain per day. That seems pretty light - are they very young? And what weight of grain would a duck eat free choice? I had some of those big white "park ducks" once and they were freaking gross pigs (they shit a LOT). I have no idea what the feed intake vs body weight was, though. I am positive they weighed more than 4 lbs.

[DS1]

4. Watch how the ducks react to the feeding

Let the youtube video load and play, give it the time it deserves on dialup. I think that will tell you every point I'm trying to make.

[jgraz]

37. That first farmer is pretty bad at handling his birds

You can find other examples of foie gras production where the geese follow the farmer around begging for the gavage. They clearly picked someone who is not very good at what he does.

[DS1]

5. The liver is TEN TIMES the normal size

This cannot be normal!

[yewberry]

9. It's not.

Here's the difference:


There's a whole series of painful photographs in this collection. This photo may be the only one I could post without a warning.

[jgraz]

13. Enlarged, fatty liver is part of the natural migration cycle for ducks and geese

If you allow them to gorge naturally, they experience no more suffering than a wild duck would as it prepares for migration.

[yewberry]

14. That particular enlarged, fatty liver isn't part of a natural migration cycle.

It's the result of force-feeding.

Force-feeding isn't natural, and it is cruelty.

[jgraz]

17. Which is why you need to know your source, just like any food product

But, force-feeding isn't necessarily as cruel as that video makes it out to be. The ducks want to gorge for migration and the manner of feeding, though it looks bizarre to us, mimics the way all birds are fed by their parents.

I wasn't particularly pleased with how that farmer was handling the ducks, nor the look of their feathers, but I've seen other foie gras operations using similar techniques where the ducks are happy, well treated and follow you around begging for the next shot of grain.

[yewberry]

19. Force-feeding also isn't necessarily as kind as that video makes it out to be.

We probably shouldn't go too much further with this conversation. Our notions of what constitutes a "food product" are likely very different.

[jgraz]

25. I agree with that. With any animal farming, there's potential for needless suffering

That's why I think we need to be pushing humane farming rather than going for total bans. It makes no sense to me to drive small boutique farmers out of business while industrial meat production is still allowed to continue.

[Lethe]

22. then why do they force feed them?

if the ducks want to gorge naturally, then why don't they gorge without force feeding?

[jgraz]

24. Most responsible producers do not force feed

But like anything, it's not black and white. There's a range of techniques from complete self-feeding, to supplemented feeding to all force fed. The first step is to eliminate the irresponsible farmers who are not treating the animals well.

My problem with the total ban approach is the same as my problem with total prohibitions on anything. It practically guarantees that only the worst producers will continue to operate.

[yewberry]

28. It's less time-intensive, less seasonal, and cheaper.

If the animals are allowed to feed naturally, the "yield" will be smaller and more seasonal.

[jgraz]

29. Which is ultimately stupid and self-defeating for the farmers

Producers are starting to realize that gourmets will pay a premium for high-quality humanely-raised meat. It just seems ridiculous to try to cut costs in foie gras production, where people already expect to pay an arm and a leg.

Ultimately, farmers could be getting the same amount of revenue for a smaller, higher-quality yield. This means higher profits, less labor and much less suffering for the animals. Goodness all around.

[Fenris]

6. I can't even watch stuff like that.

I used to laugh at the idea of vegetarianism. Now the thought of meat and the suffering involved makes me ill. I'm not going to judge anyone for eating meat, but I can't personally do it anymore.

Foie gras I've never eaten, and don't plan on doing it ever.

[DS1]

7. If you don't eat it, watch it anyway

:)

See how fucked up it is, and why Chicago put a ban on it

[nam78_two]

16. That exactly describes me too

Everything you said about yourself there applies to me.

[jgraz]

38. I'd suggest just skipping to the second half of the video

If you're squeamish about seeing the geese fed (even though that's how their parents did it), then just check out the second farm in the film. It's a foie gras operation that doesn't use gavage and it gives you a very different picture.

[LostinVA]

8. Foie gras and veal are two things I can't eat because of the cruelty

And I love meat. Naturally, the woman doesn't eat it.

[SeattleGirl]

11. I know I wouldn't like foie gras, and just cannot bring myself to eat veal.

For some reason, the thought of doing that just grosses me out.

[jgraz]

27. You can get both of these without the cruelty that was there 10-20 years ago

Just as you can get eggs, chicken, pork and dairy that are produced humanely.

One way to encourage this is to start asking restaurants where they get their meat. If it's not from a humane source, let them know you won't be eating there. You'd be surprised the kind of effect that has.

[RebelOne]

30. What's the difference between the cruelty of foie gras and veal

and the slaughter of animals. That's just as cruel.

[idgiehkt]

10. thanks for posting this

really. :hug:

[jgraz]

12. Like any food product, you have to know your source

The video clearly shows that there's a better and more natural way to raise foie gras. If you simply have a fundamental problem with killing animals for food, than foie gras is no better than any other meat. But it's difficult to say it's somehow worse than other animal products.

[DS1]

20. Yes, it IS different than other forms of meat

This is torture, raising cattle or swine for slaughter while giving said cows and pigs a somewhat normal life is night and day compared to this. The comparison simply does not exist.
This isn't even a meat, it's a liver byproduct of forcefeeding. It's not natural.

Oh, poor Gordon Ramsay, he can tell the difference between natural foie gras and force-fed foie gras. Well fark you, banning it was a great step forward by Chicago. I hope more cities follow Chicago's example.

[jgraz]

26. What is your basis for deciding what's natural?

If the ducks and geese didn't have the natural capacity to gorge and enlarge their livers, they would simply die from the overfeeding. The fact is that far more suffering goes on in industrial slaughterhouses and feedlots than ever occurs at one of these small foie gras farms.

Trust me, the commercial meat industry LOVES the focus on foie gras. I have an acquaintance in Chicago who works for the meat board, and the beef and pork producers couldn't be happier with the ban. For them, it means full speed ahead on all the really horrible stuff.

[Kali]

32. eh, you better quit, you are making too much sense

I don't know much about this process or the product (don't care for liver of any kind, probably could never afford that stuff anyway) but I know how people react to handling that may be fine yet have an appearance they don't like (branding cattle for one) because they have never seen it or have any other understanding of what really constitutes cruelty.

I did not know about the natural changes to the liver prior to migration, yet that makes so much sense in understanding how this product even came about. There is always more to the story than the hysterical headlines would imply - often way more than even an in-depth article gives you!

[nam78_two]

15. :-(-It is a horrible process for sure.nt

[jgraz]

39. Why "for sure"?

Birds are fed this was by their parents, and they retain the feeding reflex all through life. Birds have no gag reflex, no throat and no stomach. They have a crop (an expanded pouch in their esophagus) which is intended to store lots of food. Geese in the wild use this when they gorge on food to fatten their livers for migration.

Like any animal product, there are right and wrong ways to do this. But foie gras does not represent any greater cruelty than any other meat production.

[jgraz]

18. I'm curious what your reaction was to the Spanish farm in the second half of the video

Do you feel that operation was also cruel?

[DS1]

21. Compared to the first half?

Cruel? It's true that both sets of birds will die for their livers, but you cannot seriously be asking if the birds in the first half have lives comparable to the birds in the second half.

[jgraz]

23. No, just in general

I'm wondering if you also feel that the type of farming that the Spanish are doing should also be avoided.

[LynneSin]

31. I don't need to watch no stinking movie to know that it's torture

I know many high end restaurants are banning the sale of this crap

[jgraz]

35. If you've ever fed a bird, this movie isn't that troubling

This is HOW baby birds are fed, and the geese are very familiar with it. To me, I was more concerned that the geese at the farm they picked did not look like they were particularly well cared-for in general -- a problem with any animal farming, whether meat, dairy or egg.

What you should really see is that second half of the film where they show a very different foie gras operation. This is what we should be looking at promoting, rather than advocating a total ban.

Foie gras is a product that, by and large, is produced by small farmers working by hand. Like any agricultural product, the real damage comes from the industrial side of things (which is very hard to do with foie gras).

[redqueen]

33. I don't want to watch it.

:(

[SacredCow]

34. I don't think I'll watch that....

I'm certainly no vegan, but I've never tasted foie gras and probably wouldn't consider it anyway.

[jgraz]

36. Wrong place

Bush is an ass-carrot

[cobalt1999]

40. I like Foie Gras but I'd like to try the Spanish free range version

Quite a difference from the birds trying to get away from the French farmer in their pens and the geese running towards the Spanish farmer in an open field. I don't have a chef's palate, so I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference like the chef in the movie.

I'll have to search for that option next time.

[jgraz]

41. Then you should check out these suppliers

http://www.sonomasaveurs.com/

They still use gavage, but it's a very different picture from the farmer in that film. I think they deliberately chose someone who was generally bad a handling his animals.

I've seen the Sonoma operation and the birds are very well cared-for. The gavage (so-called "force" feeding) is a much less traumatic process if the birds are handled properly.

Too bad the state of California has legislated these folks out of business by 2012. Talk about your fucked-up priorities.

[cobalt1999]

43. Thanks for the link.

I agree banning something just because some farms use inhumane techniques is just a typical over-reaction. Go after the bad farms instead.

[Shakespeare]

45. Thank you for mentioning the Sonoma operation.

They are a small, family-owned artisanal farm, and they took very good care of their animals. PETA, rather than putting their energy into going after the cruel factory outfits (something I totally support), decided to bully the little (humane) guy, and has almost driven this farm out of business.

I have no problems with banning the factory farming techniques for fois gras, but it's wrong to punish the small, humane producers who are going about it the right way. Hey, broad brushes for everyone.

[jgraz]

49. Yep...where's the bill to outlaw factory beef production in CA?

I thought so. It's much more effective fundraising to get the ignorant masses to look at the cute fuzzy duckies.

[flvegan]

52. You should check out my post below.

You may change your mind.

[Shakespeare]

56. No, doesn't change my mind. Those photos don't match what I saw with my own eyes.

I used to live up there, and actually visited the facility. I'll trust my own experience with unverifiable photos somebody posts on the 'net.

I'll also concur with what jpgraz posted in response to the link; no need to re-state.

[flvegan]

57. I know somebody

With intimate knowledge of these events who verified the photos personally. But, oh well.

[jgraz]

65. Thanks for the update on this

Looks like I'm off foie gras until a better producer shows up -- or until I move to Paris.

Oh well, there's always veal. :evilgrin:

[flvegan]

67. You owe me a new keyboard.

Veal. You devil.

[jgraz]

64. Were you at the Stockton facility? Looks like fivegan has some new info

The Sonoma setup was very nice. I've been happily ordering their foie gras for years based on that visit. Fivegan's pics look nothing like what I saw.

[LeftyMom]

46. Too bad it's taking so damn long

Animal abusers can get the fuck out of California.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

51. Oh, bullshit.

Tried as I could to stay away from this, I can't read this and let it pass.

A number of activists entered the beloved Sonoma Foie Gras establishment (they produce that foie gras sold there). Lawsuits were filed, countersuits were filed and the amendments to the legislation began.

Doesn't change how that place is run.

The proof is in the pics. Have a look see (GRAPHIC WARNING):

http://www.stopforcefeeding.com/page.php?module=photos&article_id=33

Sonoma is the second group of pics down. It's a shithole.

Here's a graphic video of the feeding practice at Sonoma:

http://www.stopforcefeeding.com/feeding.wmv

"Some die from heart failure as a result of the feeding, (Eric Delmas, manager of Sonoma Foie Gras) said, or from choking when they regurgitate....

"Just because an animal suffers, it's not a violation of animal cruelty laws." -- Robert Julian, attorney for Sonoma Foie Gras, Santa Rosa Press Democrat, Dec. 31, 2003.

Lastly, from http://www.artisanfoiegras.com/about/ (the site you linked to)

"A Day in the Life

Sonoma Foie Gras is committed to the highest standards of animal welfare, and utilizes humane techniques in the raising and feeding of ducks. Ducks are never individually caged and are allowed to roam free range."

How "free range" is this:

[jgraz]

54. If that video is truly Sonoma Farms, it's a very different picture from what I saw

Like any meat operation, there are opportunities for needless suffering. The point is that foie gras production is not inherently more cruel than is the production of any other animal product.

We look at this with our mammalian instincts and shudder at the thought of food being poured down our throats. But all birds feed this way in the nest, and migrating birds gorge to fatten their livers.

Like any food production, the real problem is poor oversight and profit-chasing corporatization of farms.

[flvegan]

55. Agreed.

Opportunities for needless suffering, yes. I disagree about the cruelty. I think there are less cruel production methods of animal products. Foie gras isn't the worst, though, which is what I think you were going for.

The point of my post is that this "little family farm" with it's promises of free-range this and cruelty-free that are out and out lies. The vids and the pics are genuine, and Sonoma sued over them. They certainly aren't deserving of anyone's praise nor to profit from it. They're just another shithole that treats animals like dirt, and I look forward to their demise.

[jgraz]

60. I trust you on the Sonoma farm. Looks like they moved to Stockton since I was there.

I didn't know that. This is why we need to regulate this stuff. Tough oversite is a lot easier to push through than outright bans. People who can afford foie gras will just fly elsewhere to get it, and probably buy it from other unregulated producers.

[nam78_two]

66. "Tough oversight is a lot easier to push through than outright bans."

You have a point. I would really like to see as much animal protection as we can realistically push through become a reality. And pursuing achievable goals may be the way to go.


I would really like to see an absolute end to the cruelty that is factory farming and I honestly think that save a vocal minority, this is something that vegetarians and meat-eaters alike can agree on-humane farming.Truly humane farming, not the fake places that flvegan is talking about. The thing would be to get tough laws passed and ensure that they are followed. The vast majority of people would not endorse the abomination that is factory farming-at least that is my firm belief.
I think most people are just unaware of how horrible factory farming is and when more people become aware of it, it will get easier to pass laws that truly ensure some degree of protection for farm animals.

Honestly, if cats and dogs were ever subjected to treatment even 1/2 as bad as that endured routinely by farm animals, there would be major outrage in the media and elsewhere. Look up downers for instance.

Our treatment of farm animals as a society is truly depressing :(.

[jgraz]

69. The sad part is that cats and dogs (and birds) ARE subjected to this kind of treatment

People are just fucking psychotic. Which is why we need fewer of them.

[nam78_two]

70. Oh definitely

It happens to cats and dogs too. I would just like to see them all (animals that is) protected, regardless of whether they are companion animals or not.

I think it is a travesty, for instance, that there isn't even a basic humane slaughter regulation for poultry :-/.

[ThomCat]

42. I couldn't watch the whole thing.

That is sickening. :cry:

How can anyone claim that force feeding the ducks that way, and that amount, isn't torture?

[jgraz]

44. Watch the whole thing and no, it's not torture

Birds are built for this sort of thing, both in the so-called "force" feeding (which is how their parents feed them) and the fatty liver (which is how they stock up for migration). What they aren't built for is dumbass farmers who can't handle their birds properly.

Watch the second half of the video to see the other end of the spectrum. They show a farm which produces foie gras without any gavage. It gives you a very different picture.

[yewberry]

58. I think everyone should be aware that that video isn't the whole spectrum.

If people believe that that's what cruelty looks like, they should know better.



Graphic images below. Please do not scroll down if you are likely to be upset by cruelty to animals.
































All the comforts of home.







This one choked. (Hudson Valley Foie Gras)


These wounds are the result of confinement and lack of access to water at Sonoma Farms in CA.


There is real cruelty, folks.

[jgraz]

63. Hudson Valley is a notoriously bad producer. Looks like Sonoma Farms is following their lead

That sucks. I wonder if someone bought them out.

Once again, the only way to combat this is with tough federal oversight. That's a lot easier to push through than outright bans.

[jgraz]

72. Crap, wrong spot again

Bush is an ass-carrot

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. That's it?

Looked like just a simple gavage. Reminds me of Chinese cormorant fishing. You do no they cut the duck's head off before they eat it too, right?

[jgraz]

50. Some people have never been around a farm

Spend a summer working a dairy farm and this will not bother you at all. I'll bet most of the folks complaining have no idea where their milk and eggs come from.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Apparently.

"Oh my god! The ducks are running away!"

:rofl:

[LSK]

59. that is sick!

I never had the stuff and don't care to try it. With all the food out there in the world, do we really need to eat this too?

[KamaAina]

61. If foie gras is torture...

...how come the troops at Abu Ghraib didn't get any? :evilgrin:

[Beaverhausen]

62. I don't have to watch. I've never eaten it and never will

[IntravenousDemilo]

68. Foie gras is very bad for you, for one thing, with all the cholesterol.

And for another thing, it could be easily replaced with an artificial vegetable paste with absolutely no difference in taste or texture. I once did a side-by-side blind taste test with foie gras and what they called "faux gras" (should have been "faux foie", but that would have ruined the pun) and I couldn't tell them apart.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

71. I can't watch...

I've read enough descriptions of what is done to these poor creatures to know that they suffer horribly. :cry:

[jgraz]

73. Examples of how birds are fed (with bonus Baby Bird Cuteness)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eLTib8uGDIw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kc32OqmyrPw

This is what birds are used to. I've fed twenty-year-old parrots who still have this "down the hatch" feeding reflex.

My point here is that this can be done in a way that is not cruel and doesn't hurt the birds. There's no reason birds should be injured or killed from this kind of feeding.

[GoneOffShore]

74. I love Foie Gras and always have.

Here's a site that gives some insight without the hysteria.

http://www.artisanfarmers.org/home.html

If the "activists" would concentrate on real factory farming and supporting local, sustainable farmers, then I might have some respect for them.