Let's talk about racial issues now, shall we?

[Redstone]

Mrs R is struggling very hard right now, dealing with the fact that she FINALLY has confirmation that her father was an African man, not the mythical Portuguese sailor who (according to the story her family fed her) appeared in her mother's life and then sailed away, the one who her racist family INSISTED was her father, until her cousin set the matter straight during a recent trip to the Seychelles (where Mrs R grew up).

I've known that she was at least half black since the first time I set eyes upon her. Until I found out that she's Seychellois, my initial impression (based upon her looks) was that she was Caribbean...I'd have bet $100 that she was from Trinidad or Barbadoes or some place like that, and of course lost the bet.

The upside for her is that her father and his wife lived just up the road from her when she was a child. She spent a lot of time with them, and both of them (her father AND his wife) referred to her as "our daughter," and treated her as such, and loved her as such, unlike the torture she received from her "real" family. That, of course, didn't sit well with her racist white grandparents (with whom she lived, because her mother abandoned her when she was a baby). But, could those racist (sorry for the repetition) bastards acknowledge her heritage, and let her live with that couple who loved her; that couple of which the male half was her FATHER?

No, they couldn't. They fought it tooth and nail.

So: Now she has the comfort of knowing that she DID know her father, interacted with him, and they brought joy to each other's lives. But at the same time, she has an incandescent anger (which I well understand) at the surviving members of her mother's generation; those who all kept the truth from her for so long.

I can't go to the Seychelles and dig up her grandparents' bones so I can piss on them, as much as I'd like to. I also can't afford to go to South Africa and slap her mother across her face. And it doesn't matter that I can't, because this isn't about ME.

It's about HER. Her feelings of betrayal and of abandonment. I've been trying to help her with this for 17 years now, and I don't mind doing so at all. I am absolutely NOT complaining here. I'm just asking all you great DUers for any advice you might have that could help me help her.

Mrs R and I touch each other constantly. When we're walking, we hold hands. When we're sitting on the couch at home, we sit together, shoulders touching. Visitors who stay at our house complain, when we let them sleep in our bedroom, that our bed has a big dent in the middle, because we sleep entwined in each other's arms every night. But the other day, when we came home after going to our town's Family Day on the town green, she asked me: "Don't you feel ashamed to be holding hands with a half-Black woman in public?"

That hurt. I did remind her that I'm only half-white myself, and that I had told her 10 years ago (after hearing her stories of growing up) that I was POSITIVE that Ti-Tsis (her black neighbor) was really her father. And that it was more than OK with me. And that I understood a LITTLE of what she went through, since our parents never told me and my siblings that we were half American Indian until we were teenagers.

Though that's not the same as her situation. I'm asking for help here, especially from DUers of color, or especially DUers who are half black and half white by birth...you guys got anything you can tell me that might help me ease her mind?

Her ethnic heritage is fine with me, because what do I care who her parents or grandparents were? And furthermore, our 11-year-old son said this when we talked to him about it the other night: "So, I'm part Indian, and part white, and part African, too? Cool!" You'd think that would help ease her mind.

But she's still conflicted. Any advice, comments, information, or recommendations would be appreciated.

Redstone

[Jamastiene]

I'm not half, but I AM mixed race.

Uhm, what your son said pretty much sums it up. That's EXACTLY the BEST way to look at it. Period. Good kid you got there. :thumbsup:

[Redstone]

60. Yes, he does have the right attitude, doesn't he? Thanks for your reply.

Redstone

[From The Ashes]

1. Redstone:

...I think that part of her problem is that because of the way that she was raised by her grandparents, she bears some emotional scars. People who are emotionally abused (and I speak from experience) have a tough time coming to terms with it. Patience and time are the only remedies, I'm afraid.

:hug: to Mrs. R, and a :hug: for you too.

[LibraLiz1973]

2. Red, that broke my heart.

I think that logically Mrs. R knows that being bi-racial is in no way negative.
But the thing that is messing with her mind is all the programming she got from her
grandparents for years and years. Not to mention the abandonment of her mother-
seems as if she might be thinking her mother was ashamed of her because she was
half black.

This is not something that will right itself overnight. She is probably going back
through her whole life in her mind and revisiting things that were said and done
that she now realizes had a whole other horrible meaning.
It must be horrible to know that your "family" would rather you be parent less
than allow you to have a meaningful relationship with the parent that truly wanted her
and would have loved her... just because of the color of his skin.
The people that were supposed to love and protect her did horribly by her-
and right now part of her is internalizing that as being her own fault for being 1/2 black.

The best thing you can do is what you are already doing- loving her unconditionally.
Give her time to come to grips with what was done to her.

[Redstone]

11. Your reply contained many, many truths. Thank you.

LL1973, you're one of the good ones. I want you to know that, just in case I haven't told you that before.

Redstone

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. My dear Redstone...

No advice, here...

Just hugs for both of you...

There's plenty of good advice so far in your thread, and no doubt there will be more as the evening progresses...:hug:

[SeattleGirl]

5. Ah, Redstone, your post makes me ache for Mrs. R.

Like LibraLiz said, Mrs. R is probably dealing primarily with how she was treated, especially being lied to, and hearing racist things from her grandparents. It was an attack on her father, AND it is an attack on her. She has no need to feel embarrassed or ashamed, but I can understand why she might be feeling that way, because of what happened as she grew up.

It is so very sad that she was subjected to that kind of thing from people who were supposed to love and care for her. I hope that she can work through the anger and the pain she is feeling, and I'm so thankful that she has you solidly at her side.

:hug: :hug: :hug: for you and Mrs. R.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

10. It's a "him" and I'm ashamed to say that he shares my city.

And it was WAY out of bounds. Hope the asshole gets tombstoned.

[RevCheesehead]

6. I'm not sure there are simple answers here.

Yet, there's a hell of a lot of insight on her family. I guess all I can say is that I'm glad she has YOU as her husband. :hug:

[Redstone]

13. Oh no, no simple answers except one: I have to love her. But that's an easy thing

for me to do, since it's just what I do.

Good to see you around, Rev. Thank you so much for posting in this thread.

Redstone

[RevCheesehead]

14. I hope this turns into an opportunity for healing.

For her and the whole damned situation.
And yes, you love her exceptionally well. It shows in your face (of that gorgeous picture of you!).


Oh, and sorry about the asshole above. I think even Jesus would call him a douchebag.

[KitchenWitch]

19. "I think even Jesus would call him a douchebag."

:spray:

Thank you!

[Redstone]

24. "Even Jesus would call him a douchebag?" Good Lord, you made me laugh

out loud, Rev, and I am forever in your debt for having made me do so.

And trust me, Jesus would approve of your use of the term "douchebag." He'd find it as funny as I did.

Redstone

[RevCheesehead]

26. Glad I could help.

Most people around here laugh AT me, not what I say. :P

[fizzgig]

7. i don't have any advice

i'm glad that mrs. r did indeed know her father and that he played a role in her life but i am sorry that she had to grow up around the vile hate her family spewed.

seattlegirl made some good points before me. it's likely she internalized a lot of that hate and is feeling as though her family's hate is an attack on her.

:hug: for both of you

[laylah]

92. What a remarkable

young woman you are Kaghime! I taught you well.

I agree, Mrs. R was blessed to have grown up with her dad, even if she didn't know it. As for the grandparents...well, we both know what I am hoping.

Redstone, please assure your wife she is one awesome human bean who was unfortunate enough to have had to grow up with such small people. I wish her peace. :hug:

[KitchenWitch]

8. I have no words of wisdom, just an ear and a shoulder

:hug:

I am sorry your wife is so conflicted about this.

[Danger Mouse]

12. be there for her and support her. encourage her to see the good in her discovery.

it's hard to overcome years of hate, deeply ingrained into the psyche. the logical part of her realizes this, but it's hard for her to come to terms with it, deep inside.
it'll take time, and effort, but i think it can be done.

[Redstone]

15. Thanks, EH. You understand, and I appreciate it.

Redstone

[Danger Mouse]

17. i work with some kids that come from racist backgrounds....

and you can see them struggle with it every day. they want to be with their black friends, and just accept them and be happy, but their minds are clouded with filth spewed in there by their parents.
sometimes, the kids can overcome it, and fight racism whenever they see it, because they remember how horrible it is...
others, give into it, and become as bigoted as their parents before them.
seeing children develop into little bigots is one of the most heartbreaking things i've ever seen :cry:

[Redstone]

27. You know what? You're a saint...

doing that kind of work every day. I salute you.

Redstone

[Danger Mouse]

31. i'm about as far from a saint as it gets...

but i like working with these kids, and i'd like to think that it makes a difference.
at least to them. and that's what matters.

[IntravenousDemilo]

43. This is one of the very best reasons to prohibit home-schooling and religious schools.

The whole point of public school is to socialize kids with many different kinds of other kids and to flatten the bigot-bumps that parents leave on them. Just imagine how crappy some of the kids you work with would turn out if they didn't have a wide variety of friends and were spoonfed bigotry by their parents 24 hours a day.

[Danger Mouse]

45. Exactly.

bigoted trash parents WANT their kids to associate only with other bigoted trash...god forbid the poor kid ever has a chance to become their own person and think for themself

[SeattleGirl]

46. Those kinds of parents hope they never learn how to do that. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

47. when i was in high school, still somewhat young and innocent...

i was doing a report on hate groups and came across a picture of a baby in a kkk robe.
something broke in my mind on that day.

[SeattleGirl]

50. That's horrible.

:cry:

[Danger Mouse]

52. ...in the same book there were pictures of happy smiling children...

in the white robes of evil.
it's criminal, is what it is. how dare they pass on their vile hatred to someone too innocent to know any better?

[SeattleGirl]

53. I wish there was some way to wipe out that kind of hatred.

Perhaps the best way to do it is, as someone else said, have more and more "rainbow families."

[Danger Mouse]

55. i'd like to believe that one day...

the power of love will overcome hate.
it's hard to see it now...
but i think we'll get there...eventually.

[SeattleGirl]

57. Probably not in our lifetime, but like you, I hope so eventually.

This world is too small for that kind of hatred.

[Danger Mouse]

104. It's worth fighting for, if even just to ensure a chance that generations form now...

our descendents will be able to live in a world where racism and hate will be looked upon as sad weaknesses humans once had...

[kwassa]

16. My advice

as a white man married to a black woman.

Most African-Americans are of mixed-race background, with either white or Native American heritage. They don't know their background, unless stories are passed down, because the US Census didn't have a means, or kept changing that means, of recording it.

The upside for her is that her father and his wife lived just up the road from her when she was a child. She spent a lot of time with them, and both of them (her father AND his wife) referred to her as "our daughter," and treated her as such, and loved her as such, unlike the torture she received from her "real" family. That, of course, didn't sit well with her racist white grandparents (with whom she lived, because her mother abandoned her when she was a baby). But, could those racist (sorry for the repetition) bastards acknowledge her heritage, and let her live with that couple who loved her; that couple of which the male half was her FATHER?

Your wife has a great gift. She knows her father and her mother, for better, and for worse. I think she should connect with both. She should give her attention to those that express care about her most.

My wife does that. She is between two families, though both are black. It is not unlike any divided family from divorce that remarries, though the additional component of race is thrown in there. For some blacks, there is some ingrained, self-hating racism involved, denying their heritage, because it has always been a huge liability to be black in this country. Historically, if one could pass for white, one would do it, because it would make their whole life easier.

PBS had a funny little documentary on descendent's of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. There is a modern branch of the family that denies any black heritage. It happens.

We whites have mixed heritage too, though much of it is not visible. Some recent DNA explorations have been very surprising.

edit to add:

An essential point on this topic was missed by me.

White people NEED to understand that this is a unique experience that they can't have. It is fundamentally impossible to walk in a black person's shoes, no matter how strong their powers of empathy are. It will always be outside the white person's experience. The best we can do is to listen and recognize and support.

[idgiehkt]

22. great post

I remember a comedian joking once that a major difference between blacks and whites is that black people know that they are mixed whereas whites deny it when in fact there is no such thing as a "white" race. The PBS shows on African ancestry with Henry Louis Gates were really fascinating http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/news/20050713_africanamericanlives.html as well as some of the shows they have done on Drs. Spencer Wells and Brian Sykes and their research on genetic heritage, Sykes does the female ancestral line and Wells focuses on the male line.

[Redstone]

29. Thank you SO much for your reply...It's even more complicated for us because

she's not American. And, despite your great advice, she can't connect with her father or his wife because they're both long dead, and like the rest of her family, eight thousand miles away (literally on the other side of the world).

I'm quite comfortable in being only half white, but that's easy for me, because I'm American, at least half, and I know when the Irish side floated over here.

Not so simple for her.

But I want to tell you again how much I appreciate your response to my post. It helped.

Redstone

[kwassa]

37. well, she knew them

She can reconsider how she thought of them. She at least got to know them.

They knew where they were coming from, and gave her love.

The concept of family is flexible. What has been common, in the black community, is that there are amorphous extended families that include "play" brothers and sisters, who were treated as family members, and anyone remotely related, born in-wedlock, or out, was a relation. This grew out of the necessity of growing into a supportive structure when it was in the interest of the white racist society to kill any concept of the black family.

Your wife might be able to reconnect, and might not. I don't know the Seychelles. Here in the US, it depends. It is usually impossible for any African-American to find out family before the Civil War.

And you must understand that that each situation is unique.

There are endless variations on race issues, and the two you must know are white America, and black Seychelles, (which might not recognize the same racial categories that we do.) however, your wife is a woman of color in the US, and that has another set of issues. Maybe big, maybe small.

We are in an era of multiplicity and variance.

[Redstone]

41. "We are in an era of multiplicity and variance." Are there any truer words than that?

Thank you for your well-thought-out and well-written words.

Redstone

[Kutjara]

18. Here's my two cents worth, Red.

Let me start with a story about myself.

Until I was 30, I believed that the couple who raised me were my parents. When my "father" died, I was sorting through his personal papers and discovered that I'd been adopted. That was shocking enough, but the kicker was that my real mother was a person I'd known all my life as my cousin. It seemed she'd had me "out of wedlock" when she was 19, her boyfriend had split the scene, and I'd been dumped in a convent orphanage, no doubt with the intention that I never be seen again.

After a couple of years, other members of the family discovered my mother/cousin's little secret, extracted me, malnourished and suffering from rickets, from the tender care of the Sisters of Eternal Indifference, and handed me over to a great aunt and uncle of surpassing psychopathy. They raised me as their own, the way wolves raise chickens, while the whole family kept the elaborate fiction going for three decades. The only indication I ever got that things were not as they seemed was the continual looks of contempt I received from everyone in my family, which I just ascribed in my childish way to the fact that I was an evil person who deserved everything I got, even if I couldn't understand why.

When I discovered the duplicity and bigotry that lay behind every aspect of my existence, I was apoplectic with rage. If my "parents" hadn't already been dead, I would have killed them myself. Fortunately my birth "mother" was a continent away, with her new husband and my four half-brothers and sisters (whom I've never met), so she was sufficiently out of my reach to avoid the same fate.

After the anger subsided, a strange thing happened. My memories began to reedit themselves. Every recollection suddenly had an extra dimension to it, so that previously inexplicable things suddenly made sense. Long-held feelings of inadequacy and unworthiness disappeared as I slowly realized that nothing I'd been subjected to was "personal." My family abused, lied to and ultimately abandoned me not because of who I was, but because of what I represented. There had never been anything wrong with me, but rather with them. Strange as it may seem, I found this incredibly liberating. It made it so much easier to say "fuck the lot of you" and get on with the business of living my life, unencumbered by all the baggage I'd taken on over the years.

I'm not saying that your wife's experience will be the same as mine. The nature of the discrimination we were subjected to is very different: she is half African, I was an unwanted bastard. Yet, if she comes to the realization that none of what she endured was "personal," she might find that her new knowledge sets her free of some stuff she's been carrying around for a long time.

My best wishes go out to you both. And let your wife know that someone here understands some of what she's feeling.

[VLC]

30. That is just astounding

Glad you have gotten past it.

[Kutjara]

33. I'm not sure I've got past all of it, but...

...certainly the most hurtful, debilitating parts are behind me. As I said to the shrink who helped me resolve many of my problems, "I couldn't say with my hand on my heart that, if my birth mother was standing here before me, I wouldn't pound her head in with a rock."

Perhaps perversely, I don't hate her for the decision she made to abandon me. She was young, alone and scared, desperate to hide her "mistake" from her Irish Catholic family. What I hate her for is the decision she made to keep lying once her secret was discovered, and every day since then.

[VLC]

38. Yeah, I think a lot of people never quite get over what their families to do them

but the fact that you've recognized what happened and reinterpreted the past is very positive, I think.

Family is the people who love you, not necessarily the ones you are tied to by blood.

[Redstone]

34. Your "two cents" are worth more than you will ever know. Thank you. I know that

there are many "kindred spirits" to Mrs R out there, and you're one of them.

I gotta tell you, those of us who got beaten when we were kids should not feel sorry for ourselves (this is just me talking here), because at LEAST we got beaten by our real parents...not that there's any excuse because of that, but what the hell, it's how we rationalize things, anyway.

I cannot thank you enough for your heartfelt and obviously painful post.

Redstone

[Kutjara]

39. You're more than welcome, Red. Often it helps just to know...

...other people have survived the same (or similar) experiences. It makes the pain more bearable, somehow, to know that others have stared up at the same indifferent sky. If my story has had that effect, then I'm happy I shared it.

Mrs. R will come out of this and be a stronger person for it, I assure you. My thoughts are with both of you.

[struggle4progress]

20. The idea "race" is very flexible nonsense: it is an empty vessel into which

people can pour vague feelings and ideas.

The one purpose of "race" in Western history has been to mystify exploitation and extermination by providing the excuse they are of a different race than us, a excuse which (conveniently) cannot be refuted because it has no scientific content to refute.

Can we become rich planting sugar in the Caribbean? Then let us enslave the natives and when they have been worked to death, we shall import other still people from across the seas also to work to death. Can we become rich by stealing this land? Then by all means let us exterminate the original population. Can we become rich by forcing most of the population into to farm as share-croppers? Can we become rich by exploiting Irish or Chinese immigrants? It is always acceptable because they are a different race than us.

Since the concept has no meaning, every discussion involving the word is filled with bogus "meanings": the unknown sexual proclivities of that savage race, their inability to value life as we do, the thousands of years of odd traditions and ancient tribal rivalries which that curious race cannot possibly overcome, ad nauseam

Though there are no "races" there nevertheless certainly is racism, a scheme insisting some people are simply trash by accidents of birth, a doctrine teaching some idiotic nonsense like if several of your great-great-grandparents was born into a traditional African society then you must be ashamed. This racism was designed to serve the institutional structures that "race" was intended to obscure: it is easier to exploit people who believe (for some logically unintelligible reason) they deserve to be exploited. The antidote to this psychological poison is straightforward: it is to recognize that everyone has a right and duty to choose who to be in the real world, to fight back against ignorant idiocies and oppressions, crude or subtle.

[idgiehkt]

25. well said

in modern culture it goes back to biblical tales about the 'sons of God' mating with the 'daugthers of man' (judaic tribes mixing with the pagan cultures they were over-taking or at least in proximity of). I think at it's root this system of belief is based in tribal religion, and from that when conflict over resources arises spring the most diabolical justifications, which are based on visual things like varying genetic features from region to region.

[Redstone]

21. Thank you, admins, for the "ignore" function. It was well-needed tonight.

Redstone

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

23. I am sorry to hear this

We have a multi-racial family, and I am thankful it is free of the pain and sorrow she has experienced over the years because of these questions. I learned never to take it for granted.

No advice, other than just keep being who you are, and doing what you can for her.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idgiehkt]

28. that comment from your son warmed my heart

I'd love to know my heritage is more diverse than I suspect, maybe someday I'll find out something interesting.

I think you are handling things perfectly. If she has internalized some of the racism that her grandparents had she is already working through it with your validation and support from the way it sounds. Sometimes adults need validation when shocking events occur just like little kids do. I remember seeing a show where they placed a baby on a surface that was partially transparent and the baby would hesistate before crawling over the see-through part. He would look up at his mom and judge whether to go forward over it or not based on her facial expression; when the doctors told the women to show fear, the baby wouldn't go forward, but when they told the mothers to smile and reach out for the baby to cross the glass, the baby would crawl forward holding eye contact with the mother. I guess Mrs. R. is shell-shocked right now, and you are closest to her heart so she is seeking validation and support for you and you are giving it to her. With a man like you at her side she will work through this just fine. :hug:

[Redstone]

40. Thank you for your post. Thank you very much.

Redstone

[fortyfeetunder]

36. Heritage can be a beautiful thing...read Roots

Mrs R was abused badly at the hands of her mom, by abandoning her, and by her maternal grandparents who probably punished her for her existence. That's pretty heavy stuff to be growing up with. I feel bad for her especially for these recent revelations.

The beauty your wife had was she did know her father and she did spend quality time with him. I am sad she had to deal with the other baggage.

Though coming to terms with heritage is a tough thing to do but later it's something to ponder. I recall when as a teenager I learned about my Irish heritage -- a slave owner whose name I do not know or was even identified was my great-great-great grandfather. I have a picture of the great-great grandmother, whose mother was a slave. It's very heavy stuff and you are ashamed, because you hear about people who can track their families back to the "Old Country" and here I am can't get past naming one of my great-grandparents.

I think the turning point for me after that revelation was reading and watching "Roots", (and later did get to meet the late great Alex Haley and members of his family) and from then, my heritage was not a bad thing after all, it was a source of pride!

[Beausoir]

42. Wow. As a white mom who has multi-racial kids, the only advice I can give is that

skin color doesn't matter.

Sounds simplistic, I know.

Some of my kids are Mexican. Some of my kids are of unknown heritage and race.

Doesn't make any difference.

You get one life.

Live it.

[bridgit]

49. agreed...

[bridgit]

44. .......

[Beausoir]

105. Who is that exquisitely beautiful child?

Wow. What a masterpiece.

[Redstone]

107. I'd like to know, too. She's gorgeous. And by the way,

thanks again for your support and insight in this thread.

Redstone

[Beausoir]

111. You are most welcome, nice man. Sorry about the assholery that went on for awhile.

Some people....sheesh.

[merh]

48. I have nothing to add.

I will just second what the good Rev said, Mrs.R is lucky to be loved by you.

Give her time and let how lucky you are to be loved by her.

You know you and yours are always in my prayers. :hug: :grouphug:

[Redstone]

54. Merh! You know that you are never beyond our thoughts, either.

Redstone

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

67. Of course there's African in there. The Indians here in Connecticut have taken a lot of flak

because most of them have very dark skin and curly hair. (The flak I refer to is contained in the publicity they've garnered because of opening casinos.)

The white folks say: "Hey, those don't look like Indians to me; see how nappy they are?"

Duh. Where, exactly, do those ignorant people think all the runaway slaves ended up, especially in New England? It doesn't take more than half a brain to figure out that many of the runaway slaves, if they couldn't make it to Canada, ended up living with the Indians, because the Indians were the only people in New England who didn't give a damn about anyone's skin color.

There's another odd thing: Although I don't think there was ever any overt oppression of Indians in New England (I'm just talking about the last 150 years or so here), there WAS an awful lot of denial when I was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s. We kids saw our grandfather's roman nose and dark skin; we saw the pictures of our grandmother's family on their porch in Saxton's River, with the effort of "passing" plain on their faces, and now and again we wondered why we were darker than the other kids in that northern Vermont town, even though we weren't Italian like the only other dark kids in town. (Just me and my brothers, though; my sister got her looks from the Irish side of the family.) But our parents never told us the truth of who we are until we were teenagers.

I'm rambling now, but what I mean to tell you is that yes, if you have Indian in the woodpile, it's a good bet there's African as well. I hope that some day, it will become as easy for families to acknowledge whatever African heritage they may have, as it has finally become easy to recognize Indian ancestry.

Redstone

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

78. "Accepted standards" of beauty are not, actually, part of her problem. Her ethnicity

does NOT prevent her having to deal with men following her around in the grocery store or other places.

I try to use that as a reinforcement, telling her that if there was ANY problem with her ethnicity, would she be having to tell so many men to leave her alone so many times?

Since you seem to be interested, here she is (and here am I as well):



Redstone

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

82. You may not believe it, but I know EXACTLY what you're saying.

You communicated your message just fine, and I understood every word of it.

Yes, you "may just leave it at that," and with my appreciation and understanding.

Redstone

[laylah]

98. Oh my!

She is absolutely beautiful! What a lovely couple. Maybe one day we can discuss my afinity for the Native Americans and how I finally found out why.

I wish her peace, Redstone. She is a beautiful person, physically, and from what I can "feel" from the picture, spiritually. She has absolutely nothing to be worried about. The ones that robbed her of her heritage are the ones that have incurred karma.

[Redstone]

109. I'd like to thank you for saying that, and also to let everyone know that the deleted posts

in this sub-thread were removed by request of the person who posted them, NOT because they were hostile.

In fact, the removed posts were VERY supportive, and well appreciated. It was just more than the person who posted them wanted to say about his or herself (I know, but I'm respecting his / her privacy) in public.

Just to set the record straight, and to express my appreciation to that particular DUer.

Redstone

[kwassa]

88. to continue your point

in attempting to research my wife's ancestry, we discovered that the Indian tribe, the Nanticokes, had over time been absorbed into the local free black population and now identified themselves as black. My wife's grandfather and great aunt looked like slightly black Indians.

And we have adopted a baby girl, in late June, and while the young lady's birth parents are both African-Americans, there is clearly other ancestry as well, back a few generations, maybe.

Unlike Kutjara's terrible experience, all adoptions are open now, to some degree, and she will be able to know exactly who her birth parents are.

[DarkTirade]

56. That's something that's hard for me to grasp because I grew up in such a liberal household.

I was told that I was a quarter native american when I was very young, and I thought that was cool at the time. I didn't find out that I'm also a quarter jewish until just recently, but that's because that ancestry was of the fair-skinned european jewish type, not middle eastern, and my grandfather turned athiest, so it wasn't obvious, and it was just never something anyone got around to mentioning until recently. :) Kinda puts his WWII service in a completely different light though... especially since his father was born in Poland, but luckily left in the early 1900s.

Oddly enough though, the jewish part of my family left Poland... and moved to South Africa. They came to america sometime before WWII, don't know exactly when. But I do find it a bit ironic that their white skin made them the ones on top... but if they'd stayed in Poland, they would have been there when the germans came through a few years later.

[nadine_mn]

You are already doing it - unconditional love

My grandmother is Norwegian.Swedish, my grandfather Mexican and my uncle married my aunt who is from Thailand so we have a great melting pot of color in our family. I am 3rd generation born in the states, so I think its wonderful to have such a mix - most of my family is second and 1st generation american.

When I was 5 we moved from MN to Louisiana (back in the 70's) and when my mom enrolled me in school, the superintendent advised her that a pretty white girl like her (he missed the whole hispanic piece)should have me bussed to the all white school. My mom said hell no my daughter will go to the school that is in our neighborhood. I was one of 6 light skinned kids in my class....I thought I was black (which was great - however the first clue would be my lack of rhythm.....damn Norwegian blood).

Since my grandfather's family came here from Mexico he faced a lot of discrimination and changed his name from Pedro Lujanos to Peter Lujan. He forbid his children to speak spanish in the house because of his fear that they would suffer from the same discrimination. He is proud of his roots but realistic about prejudice.

So the point of my brief geneaolgy lesson is really that no matter how proud you are of your heritage or how much you love your family, that residual crap of discrimination and prejudice will always still linger. Your wife was lied to and raised with hatred, that takes time to work through. Luckily for her she has someone who loves her very much and fortunately it sounds like the cycle of bias has stopped with your son (such a great kid it sounds like).

[nadine_mn]

58. You are already doing it - unconditional love

My grandmother is Norwegian.Swedish, my grandfather Mexican and my uncle married my aunt who is from Thailand so we have a great melting pot of color in our family. I am 3rd generation born in the states, so I think its wonderful to have such a mix - most of my family is second and 1st generation american.

When I was 5 we moved from MN to Louisiana (back in the 70's) and when my mom enrolled me in school, the superintendent advised her that a pretty white girl like her (he missed the whole hispanic piece)should have me bussed to the all white school. My mom said hell no my daughter will go to the school that is in our neighborhood. I was one of 6 light skinned kids in my class....I thought I was black (which was great - however the first clue would be my lack of rhythm.....damn Norwegian blood).

Since my grandfather's family came here from Mexico he faced a lot of discrimination and changed his name from Pedro Lujanos to Peter Lujan. He forbid his children to speak spanish in the house because of his fear that they would suffer from the same discrimination. He is proud of his roots but realistic about prejudice.

So the point of my brief geneaolgy lesson is really that no matter how proud you are of your heritage or how much you love your family, that residual crap of discrimination and prejudice will always still linger. Your wife was lied to and raised with hatred, that takes time to work through. Luckily for her she has someone who loves her very much and fortunately it sounds like the cycle of bias has stopped with your son (such a great kid it sounds like).

[Redstone]

59. Do you have kids? If not, here's some good news for you if you intend to:

When Mrs R was pregnant, and we interviewed the doctor who would become our son's pediatrician, he asked us about our ethnic backgrounds. I told him I was half Irish and half American Indian, and Mrs R said that she wan't sure because of where she was born, but that probably 90% of the people from the Seychelles had some kind of mixture of European, Indian (as in from India), African, or Asian in their ancestry.

You should have seen Mrs R's face light up when he replied to us: "You've pretty much just guaranteed that your child will not have any of a large number of birth defects. Mixed racial heritage is one of the best things a child can have in that regard."

PS: Tell you mother that I salute her, please. That right there is a STRONG woman.

As are you. thank you for your post.

Redstone

[MissMillie]

61. isn't it just terrible that when people look at each other, what they always notice first

is what is DIFFERENT?

Why is it that we ignore so much of what is the same?

(Please understand that I think people should be proud of their heritage/geneology/whatever and that I am not saying that people should hide their background in favor of assimilation. I just wonder why what's different about us is always the deciding factor... why do we choose to let differences be the walls that separate us from people who, in all actuality, live very similar lives?)

[Redstone]

68. Excellent questions. Maybe some day we'll get some answers to them.

Redstone

[MissMillie]

76. I'm sorry that your wife's family behaved so badly

There really isn't anything for her to do. She just has to hold on to those people who make her feel good about herself. Frankly... that's good advice for us all, regardless of anything.

I'm not just white... I'm CLEAR. I have no perspective about being treated differently due to my color (though I have some perspective of being treated differently due to my size--and yes, I know that's not the same).

It's so sad that as a species we can't learn to celebrate our differences instead of beating each other up with them.

[MrScorpio]

62. I'm happy with my mixed race self

Because, no matter where I am, there I be.


She was lucky to have a loving relationship with her father.

All I can say is that who she is as person is all that matters, despite her heritage.

And don't let the naysayers say otherwise.

[Redstone]

70. I keep telling her what you said. I'll show her your post, because it might

help her.

What continues to amaze me is that all of the travel books about the Seychelles claim that the society there is colorblind, because the general population is such a mix of European, African, Indian (as in from India), and Asian.

But the truth is that there is a DEEP, endemic racist attitude that permeates the society there to an extent that would surprise even many racist Americans.


Don't believe everything you read. And thanks for the good (and authoritative, in your case) words.

Redstone

[Irishonly]

63. Your Son Is Very Wise

and it speaks volumes about you and Mrs. R. So many children are not raised with the unconditional love and the honesty that your son has been given.

My niece is 1/2 Korean and the other half consists of German, English, American Indian (Cherokee) and maybe Russian. When she was younger she came to talk to me. Her mom and she have always gone to a Korean church and thankfully, she has learned Korean. Her first birthday was wonderful because she was dressed in a ceremonial dress, and the other kids in the family have been blessed because they know Korean culture. My daughter loves Korean food. I digress.

My niece was very hurt because she said Koreans said she looked American and Americans said she looked Korean and what should she do. My first impulse was to tell her to talk to her parents and then I realized they had sent her to me for a reason. I don't know if I did a stellar job or not and I was praying the whole time I spoke. I told her she looked like herself and she was special, not because of being biracial but because she was a wonderful little girl. We talked about how said it was that people had to try to make people fit into the right spots (she was only 4 at the time) and that people are people no matter what race, culture, how much money.............. I told her to be a proud Korean and an proud American. She didn't have to choose one over the other.

As far as your wife, she has experienced so much hurt and racism and it will take time. She has much in her favor-a great, caring husband and one terrific kid. People have given you wonderful advice and I would only add, hug her tight and you will get through it all. Mrs. R has wonderful stories to tell your son about her real father and the love he and her step mother gave. I would like to punch your wife's grandparents in the nose. No child needs to be exposed to hate. She knows the truth now and can only move forward.

Bless all of you.

[Tektonik]

64. good to see this thread cleaned up

and my only advice to your wife is to stay true to herself and what she feels, but I wouldn't stress on how people wronged her in the past but instead what this knowledge can do for her now. She should cherish her culture.

[Redstone]

73. Yes, it got extraordinarily ugly, didn't it? And for not other reason than because

a certain person doesn't like me. That's fine with me; nobody is required to like me...but to attack my wife because of that is WAY out of bounds.

Your advice is good advice; she's been hearing exactly that from me and from her counselor, and we all hope that some day she'll understand.

Those of us who have not gone through what she did can never REALLY understand, but we can try to help as you did with your kind words. Thank you.

Redstone

[Zavulon]

65. Honestly, my kneejerk reaction to this would be to say

"Honey, who cares? You're fucking hot no matter what your ethnicity."

A pedestrian approach, to be sure, but sometimes the best answers are the ones that aren't terribly deep.

Disclaimer: I'm as white as they come, so this isn't exactly the essence of insight.

[Redstone]

71. Oh, don't think I haven't told her exactly that, and more than once. Hey, you don't have to have

"the essence of insight" to make a damn good contribution, as you've done with your post.

I do appreciate it, believe me.

Redstone

[Zavulon]

74. You're welcome.

BTW, I'm running on two hours of sleep, so forgive my dumbass writing - which you were right to put quotation marks around. I meant to say "epitome of insight."

If this office had a cot, it'd be supporting 225 pounds right now. Groan.

At any rate, best of luck.

[Tyler Durden]

66. Continued PDA's.

I have found that public kisses and hugs work well with any insecurity that Deb may exhibit.

[Redstone]

77. Excellent advice. I'll do that. And thank you.

Redstone

[Tyler Durden]

79. No cover charge!

Life is a dance, so while you have a partner, there's no excuse not to move to the music.

[redqueen]

69. I don't have a clue... other than just be there for her and support her...

I'm mixed race, half Mexican, half... Euro/AmerIndian mix. I also have an aunt who was half Black and half Euro/AmerIndian mix. You'd think, having experienced stuff like this, that I'd have something to tell you, but I don't. The hurt that was caused when half my Grandmother's kids reacted with hate and shame after my Grandma married a Black man has never completely gone away for my aunt. As for me, those aunts and uncles who refused to accept my aunt never accepted me or my siblings either. But each of us handled the insult differently. So what it boils down to is I think all you can do is be supportive, be there, and be understanding... the rest she has to work out in her own head.

Glad your son hasn't been taken in by any of the BS. Wish I could say the same for my daughter, but she's around her racist Nana a lot... so I guess she has heard more than I'd like to think about...

Good luck... :pals:

[againes654]

72. Well you have received so much great advice

but here is my take. I am not mixed. My daughter is white/hispanic. My husband now is black. I think part of what may be so hard for your wife is having heard all of the racist remarks from her family in the past, and now the realazation that part of her heritage is what her maternal family bashed for so many years. I can imagine that is hard to accept.

Racism in any form is wrong. It is especially wrong when it involves children. My husband and I can take the racist remarks, but when it is our children, that is way different. My grandfather was racist, and was never accepting of my marriage. It was so hard for me.

Racism hurts to the very core of a person. The person being judged, can do absolutly nothing about it. They have done nothing to deserve it. It is painful, and unfortunatly it is something that will always be with your wife.

Love and support her. Let her know that this situation does not change who she is deep down. She is still the woman you fell in love with, and you will always stand tall by her side.

:hug:

[IndianaJones]

81. Sorry, but I cannot understand at all why she would feel any shame.

Or think that you would.

[Fran Kubelik]

83. Redstone doesn't

And Mrs Redstone grew up in a horrid racist family. She's just discovered a deep secret about herself that she's coming to terms with.

[IndianaJones]

84. I understand that Redstone doesn't. I cannot comprehend the feeling of shame.

It does not compute for me.

[Redstone]

85. Because she was MADE to feel ashamed by her family. Neither you or I can possibly

understand that, because we never suffered through it ourselves. (I'm assuming here that you didn't; if you did, I apologize).

I got more than my share of beatings as a child, but was never made to feel unwanted, as she was.

It leaves scars.

Redstone

[IndianaJones]

86. That is not pleasant. Does she look white? nt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. no. she is brownish.

[Redstone]

91. Not really. You can look upthread for a picture of us.

Redstone

[IndianaJones]

96. Ok, I had images off. Much of what I could say on this subject would only offend...

the majority, so I will say that she is lucky to have a husband that is willing to support her as you do.

[mainegreen]

87. 1.3 cents: You can't just deal with the racial aspect, got to deal with the family rejection aspect.

Don't see how she can heal until she figures out how to get the cold dead claws of the evil grandparents out of her soul! Mom's rejection too. Tough to heal or deal with that.

[Redstone]

95. Yes, indeed. That IS the key, and I've been working on it.

Redstone

[Gormy Cuss]

101. I hope that she can move beyond that hold too.

Mrs. R has a beautiful son and a big lug Yankee who know how precious she is. When she can embrace that she will be a very lucky woman.

[Redstone]

102. You call me "a big lug Yankee," do you? Well, guess what:

I thank you for doing so.

Redstone

[WritingIsMyReligion]

90. All I can say is that I'm glad she has you for a husband.

And, what the hell happened on this thread? So many deleted subthreads...

On Edit: sepllnig

[Redstone]

93. The deleted subthreads were because a defective excuse for a human being barged in, spewing

the kind of stuff you'd normally only encounter in a sewer, and the gallant crowd of honorable DUers leapt to the challenge, as they always do.

There are many, many good people in this place (you're one of them), and I'm glad I found it.

Redstone

[WritingIsMyReligion]

97. Ah, defective human beings.

The same behind the OMC spew? Or another being?

:crazy:

[Redstone]

103. Another one. Unfortunately, with DU being a "big tent" place, there's room here for more than one

asshole. But it's OK; the Mods did their usual yoeman work and killed the disruptor.

Have I mentioned lately how much I appreciate the work that the Mods do? If not, I do so now.

Redstone

[1gobluedem]

94. What is WRONG with people?

That's all. I just don't get it. I don't get how people can treat others like this, especially members of their own families. Why? Why inflict such hurt? Where does it get you anyway?

I'm happy Mrs. R. has you, Redstone, and I hope your love and the love of the family you have together helps erase the horrible feelings this situation has conjured up.

[YDogg]

99. Your love for her and for each other will see you both through.

No advice, just props to you. Variety is the spice of life.

[mwdem]

100. Your wife is a beautiful woman,

and you're lucky you have her!

[FloridaJudy]

106. Your son sounds awesome.

I hope his attitude is contagious.

[Redstone]

108. Yes. It is indeed awesome to consider how the world would be such a better place if

people (not only kids) could respond to a surprising bit of news by simply saying, "Hey, that's cool."

Redstone

[applegrove]

110. She must have had a glorious time growing up on the Seychelles.

Tell her to concentrate on that. Racial predjudice is about self hate..not hate of the other. Tell her to feel sorry for her grandparents who loved her and raised her but hated themselves so much they couldn't live down the history of a little girl.