"N " word question

[Timefortruth]

My 15 year old son, who falls loosely into the emo clique, has acquired a disturbing habit. In his on line conversations he uses the N word with his friends. He attends an integrated school where whites are the minority, but it's never been an issue, as far as I know. His friends are multi racial, but no one close to him is black. It's sort of used as a pejorative, but more in a slang way and never directed toward an African American. We are white, the kids he uses it with are white, latino, or Asian Indian. He never uses it on line or in rl to talk about African Americans. About two years ago the kids would call others "gay" in the same pejorative way. It's all wrong, but I dont' know what to do about it. Honestly, I dont' think the kid has a racist bone in his body, it's more a youth rebellious thing. But he also doesn't understand the consequences if this sort of talk is seen by the people it would hurt.

Yes, I'm totally wrong to look at his on line communications, but that part of the question isn't open for debate.

Am I so out of touch that this is an appropriate casual use for teens now?

[SeattleGirl]

1. As a white person, I would never, ever use the N word in any context.

I hate the word, but I think it's especially ugly coming from white people.

My 2 cents.

[Timefortruth]

2. I absolutely, positively agree

So what I think is going on is that as a white minority at a predominately black school, he hears it all day, evey day, but from black classmates. The familiarity with the word has taken it from off limits, he doesn't realize that HE can't use it. Ownership of the word is held exclusively by African Americans.

[quip]

10. Ownership of the word is held exclusively by African Americans

And that, my friends, is an example of a double-standard.

[Timefortruth]

12. I agree.

But after hearing it eight hours a day, my boy doesn't get he can't use it, even if it sounds normal by now to him.

[yewberry]

23. No disrespect intended, but I think that's a vast oversimplification.

It's not a double standard.

The experience of white people is not the experience of black people.

By way of example, my mom can call herself a dyke, but if you call her a dyke you might get a punch in the throat. Communities can retake hateful language and make it their own.

[quip]

32. I know they *can* do it, but

what I think is that it hurts their cause. Even blacks are beginning to acknowledge this; witness the layting to rest of the "N" word by the NAACP. ANY use of the word perpetuates racism.

The experience of white people is not the experience of black people.

This is a racist statement. Do you suppose the experience of Tiger Wood or Michael Jordan is the same for an average black in the south? Do you think Bill Gates has the same experiences as you or I (assuming you're white)? EVERYBODY's experiences are different.

If we are going to end racism, we must stop talking about groups WRT to their skin color period. It should be irrelevant.

Disclaimer: My opinions don't necessary reflect the views of my other personalities. :-)

[Orsino]

29. Hardly.

The pain and humiliation implicit in the word are theirs. That's why they get to control its usage in anything other than an academic context.

Not a double standard.

[quip]

33. The pain belonged to blacks

in slavery, to blacks up until the 60s, but I don't see it today. (institutionally, at least)

Yeah, there are racist asshats out there, but that is no reason to perpetuate such a hateful word. If there is "pain" and 'humiliation" in the word, why in the hell use it? And as for controlling it; hardly. I don't even know what that means for starters, but whatever they are doing, they are hardly "controlling" it. They are giving implicit permission for its usuage IMO. I think that the NAACP agrees, which is why they want to end the usuage of the word completely.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. its called ingroup honorifics and reclaiming of perjoratives.

if you dont see institutionalized racism, maybe you are deliberately not seeing.

[quip]

39. Examples? We have many laws against it. Perhaps

you are referring to societal attitudes?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. schools. media. healthcare. jobs: you dont see racism in any of these?

[IndianaJones]

36. you don't see what institutionally today? nt.

[quip]

37. Racism n/t

[IndianaJones]

38. what do you consider to be institutions? the media? government? nt.

[quip]

40. Yes. n/t

[IndianaJones]

41. you don't see racism in the government and media? that is insane. nt.

[SteppingRazor]

42. Seconded. If you don't think institutional racism is alive and well, you're not paying attention.

The very fact that blacks, on average, make less than whites for doing the same job proves institutional racism's existence.

[quip]

45. Government jobs? Name one institution that does this. n/t

[SteppingRazor]

51. I can't believe I have to explain this to someone.

Blacks are five times more likely than whites to be locked up.
Source: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/7/18/174740/749

Whites with similar education and opportunity levels earn more than blacks:
Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_15_103/ai_100109094

Blacks are more likely to go to jail for the same crime committed by a white offender:
Source: http://www.courts.state.pa.us/Index/Supreme/BiasCmte/FinalReport.ch4.pdf


I think that's what the other poster means by "justice." Justice should be equal, regardless of race. It is not. Hence, institutional racism. This canard that we can't look at skin color is just sticking one's head in the sand and ignoring the problem. As long as there is racism in the society, it must be combated, not ignored. Ignoring a problem never makes it go away.

[IndianaJones]

52. the government. nt.

[quip]

54. That's illegal. n/t

[IndianaJones]

55. its institutionalized racism. nt.

[quip]

56. Huh? How do you define "institutional racism"? n/t

[IndianaJones]

57. racism perpetrated through policies of public bodies or institutions...

such as the government, media, or corporations. These policies are meant to impede or oppress minorities.

[quip]

59. Show me here:

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/statutes/ofccp/eo11246.htm how racism could possibly be perpetuated by the policies outlined.

The media, and most corportations are "equal opportunity" employers and so state in their hiring policies.

You may be talking about racism in general, but institutionally, it has pretty much been outlawed.

[IndianaJones]

62. ok...you are just kidding now. I see. Did you know there are more young african american males...

in prison than in college? thats fair play too, huh?

[quip]

65. What is your point?

Are you offended by that statistic because you believe that young black men are being deliberately kept out of colleges and unjustly incarcerated? And you blame our justice system and our higher education system for this? Is that it?

[IndianaJones]

69. I am offended by that statistic. They are deliberately being kept out...

and our justice system is biased against them.

Who do you blame?

[quip]

75. You ASSUME that that

is the case. What if it is because a lot of young black males drop out of school and turn to crime?

I'd blame our society; our culture-- not our institutions.

[kwassa]

81. Our institutions reflect our society and culture

They don't operate independently of our culture with some type of immunity.

There can be laws on the books against discrimination, but it is all about whether or not the law is enforced. It took decades to enforce school desegregation around the country, for example.

[quip]

82. What are institutions? They are organizations which adhere to guidelines, practices, etc.

If in the "bylaws" and rules racism and discrimination are disallowed, then what else can they do to not be racist?

So we need to enforce the law. Well, no duh. That applies to ALL crime. But now we are talking about a problem of law enforcement, not institutional racism.

[kwassa]

88. Uh, no.

you are getting into nonsensical semantic territory

What are institutions? They are organizations which adhere to guidelines, practices, etc.

They might adhere to only some of the policies they state they adhere to.

If in the "bylaws" and rules racism and discrimination are disallowed, then what else can they do to not be racist?

Enforce the law.

So we need to enforce the law. Well, no duh. That applies to ALL crime. But now we are talking about a problem of law enforcement, not institutional racism.

this is where you fall off the cliff. Law enforcement, via both the courts and the police, can be exactly that: institutionally racist. You attempt to make a distinction where there is none.

[LanternWaste]

91. Games

Institution: Of and/or belonging to a large group, whether a business, a government, a club, OR A SOCIETY.

Institutional Racism: Racism perpetuated by those of and belonging to a large group, whether a business, a government, a club, OR A SOCIETY.

If you want to believe institutional racism doesn't exist, have at it-- but don't for one moment think rhetorical games are going to outweigh experience and direct observation.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. i think you dont understand how institutionalized racism works.

it works despite laws.

[quip]

76. I think that we are talking about different things, then n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. law exist but equality in opportunity/access and implementation of these laws

are prevented by institutionalized racism.

[quip]

80. that doesn't make sense to me. How do you define "institutional racism"? n/t

[quip]

43. Cite examples please. n/t

[IndianaJones]

44. education, justice. nt.

[quip]

47. Those are 2 words, not cites of racial discrimination in media or government. n/t

[IndianaJones]

48. ok....we'll play this game. the justice system is biased against african americans. nt.

[quip]

61. ALL black Americans? How is this done, exactly?

I know our system isn't perfect, but it is the best one in the world, IMO. Perhaps you are referring to the people who use the system and abuse it. What better system is there?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. our judicial system is the best in the world?

[quip]

66. Do you know of a better one? n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. yes, almost all of western europe. any judicials system where the death penalty is not given in a

racist fashion.

[quip]

72. Okay, you are framing this based on the death penalty. I'm curious;

say we banned the death penalty; would you still feel the same way?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. depends, if for similar crimes, the sentences for black people are harsher, then no

which is the issue with the death penalty, for similar crimes black peopel are given the death penalty more often.

[mark414]

97. here, poke around in here for awhile:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=3657&mesg_id=3657

[Orsino]

70. Well, you could try using it in the presence of African-Americans...

...to see whether they're really giving implicit permission. I don't recommend that, though, until you learn about the pain and humiliation associated with its usage by certain people.

But I've seen arguments like this before, and will simply wish you a pleasant stay.

[quip]

83. Not to their faces, but in everyday language, as in the case of the OP n/t

[LanternWaste]

89. I disagree....

I disagree.

I have a close friend who is a Marine. He and his service pals go out drinking and call each other "jarhead" all the time as a term of endearment.

However the two times I've seen non-Marines (one civilian and one in the US Navy) use that term, these guys went ballistic. I asked him why and he explained, "as Marines, we've earned the right to use it in front of each other. Once you do twelve weeks at Paris Island, feel free to yourself. But until then, if you use that word, pray I'm not around.

Not so much as double-standard, as it is an earned right.

[Orsino]

28. I have, recently, when talking to an African-American co-worker.

But we were discussing Huck Finn, and the n-word in general.

[Maine-ah]

90. as a person, I would never use it.

it's an ugly word no matter what race is using it.

[Danger Mouse]

3. It's never appropriate, IMHO.

It's a hateful word.

[TK421]

4. Kill them n/t

[Timefortruth]

6. Kill whom? nt

[TK421]

11. I don't know...I'm just answering random questions while I'm drunk n/t

[Timefortruth]

13. Thanks, you've added importand insights NT

[TK421]

18. That's what I'm here for...mostly....n/t

[fizzgig]

5. that's one of the ugliest words, imo

i think an honest discussion with him about the history of the word might be appropriate

[Timefortruth]

8. I couldn't agree more

but in a school that is majority black the kids (all of them) hear it all day every day. It does become assimilated into their vocabulary, and it's power as a racial insult is lost when it is heard in an entirely different context with outrageous regularity. It obviously does not make it right, but it puts me in a bind discussing it since my kid doesn't know I spy on him.

[Mojambo]

7. It's a phase.

Don't stress. He'll realize how stupid it is by the time he leaves for college.

[Timefortruth]

15. If someone doesn't see it in the meantime and

beat the shit out of him, which he would deserve.

[Mojambo]

16. I've learned a few lessons that way.

They stick.

[ghostsofgiants]

9. Tell him to smarten the fuck up.

[hisownpetard]

14. I abhor that word and have never used it in my life. Regarding your son, though -

if he listens to a lot of rap, the use of that word is rampant throughout.
It's a big issue for debate.
I think the constant use of the word (whether by blacks or whites) desensitizes
the kids today as to how offensive and hurtful that kind of language is and has been.
It does no one any good, as far as I'm concerned.

[XemaSab]

86. You don't think it's a sign of a culture shift where the word is evolving

into something less hateful?

I think if the word becomes used enough (especially in non-hateful contexts), its power for hate is taken away. :shrug:

[mark414]

17. i am a young person, and it's very common when amongst friends, regardless of color

i don't say it, i don't like it, but that's the truth

[ghostsofgiants]

22. I've noticed the same think.

Bugs the hell out of me.

[Midlodemocrat]

60. It is FAR too common.

IMHO. My kids don't say it and ask their friends not to say it, but I have heard it when walking by a group of teens. I think it's awful.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

19. Here we go again...........

[NorthernSpy]

20. not all blacks...

... look black.


Something that many an incautious bigmouth has learned to his dismay.


Just something that your son might want to keep in mind for his real life interactions.





(Tyson Marsh -- the guy in the picture -- was recently the director of the Black Student Commission at the University of Washington)

[kwassa]

21. It is not appropriate for a white teen to use

It is a very loaded word, with many meanings for African-Americans, but while there is much disagreement among blacks about whether or not it is degrading for them to use among themselves, there is much more agreement that it is never right for a white person to use the word.

[LynneSin]

46. it's not appropriate for anyBODY to use

I'm glad to see people like Russell Simmons making efforts to curb its use in the African American community too

[krispos42]

24. Maybe show him a movie like, say...

"In the Heat of the Night" or "Mississippie Burning" or some other film where the word is used in its traditional context. Before it was taken over by rap and hip-hop. Something with lots of white robes and burning crosses.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

25. There's a really good book by Randall Kennedy

Called Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. http://www.amazon.com/Nigger-Strange-Career-Troublesome-Word/dp/0375713719/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-4672300-2516402?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193992299&sr=8-1

Kennedy is black and he wrote the book because he kept overhearing black teenagers using the word and wanted to research the history of it and hopefully educate people about the word.

I do agree with some people here in the thread, and Kennedy does note this in his book, that it's not ok for whites to say it while it's ok for blacks to say it. Which confuses me as I'm a big lover of the Civil War era and grew up knowing the word was a really bad word.

I did learn something from my mother (who's a Nigerian-born Irishwoman) about the word. They had bastardised "Niger" (the country) for the derogative word. All the while I thought it was short for "negro" but never really made the connection (they sound different but they look very similar). That's coming from someone who grew up in Nigeria, so I'm assuming she was told that from the local people.

I read the book on the T in Boston and I did get looks from people (as I look typically Irish, red hair and green eyes, and reading a book with the first word in huge white letters against a dark brown background). It's also a short book as well as engaging, and I wholeheartedly recommend it.

(I hope it was ok for me to use the N-word in this post as it refers to a book)

[muriel_volestrangler]

84. No, I don't think it comes from either the country name, or the river name

The Oxford English Dictionary records 'Neiger' in English from 1568 (1608 for the 'modern' spelling), and French 'nègre', meaning a person (ie not just as an adjective for 'black'), in 1516. They also records its use to refer to Ethiopians, on the other side of Africa, in 1574.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

85. Oh ok

That's what my mum had told me... like I said maybe she had gotten the idea from the local people. Thank you for the definition! I learn something new here everyday!

[Indi Guy]

26. Go with your gut instinct...

No parent can force their kids to do or believe anything. Share with him the kind of honesty you shared here. Hope for the best & let it go. Then keep on loving the kid.

[BlueIris]

27. I'm white and have never used it. I can't imagine in what context it would be appropriate for your

son to use it. You might want to have a talk with him. Yeah, you shouldn't have snooped, but he shouldn't be throwing around racial slurs, either. IMO, you're not out of touch, your kid is behaving like a racist.

[SmokingJacket]

30. He needs a history lesson.

Just because you're young and cool doesn't mean history doesn't apply.

If my kid started wearing tee-shirts with swastikas, and told me, All the kids do it, it doesn't mean what you think it means anymore!, well, he'd be in for an earlashing.

[Deep13]

31. Just out of curiosity,...

...why do you think it is wrong to read his on-line communications? There is nothing private about anything done on-line.

See if you can rent or borrow a copy of Eyes on the Prize, a PBS documentary about the civil rights movement.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. he shouldnt say it. you should give him a brief history of african americans.

also you as a mother can look at his online communication if something makes you unconfortable.

racism in no form (individual or institutionalized) has vanished so use of the N word is not ok by non-ingroup

[Inchworm]

49. Since you found out sneakily

You have to handle it sneakily.

Point blank him when the topic comes up. He is 15 and (joking)if he was anything like my daughter he can almost carry on a conversation. Create a scenario. Take him to a busy mall after school or the movies, or TV music videos, all the hell over the place. Point out when you hear others say it, so it's in his head.

Then you simply say, "Do you ever use the word nigger when I am not around? I think that is a very mean word. Do you know what I'm saying?"

He then has only a few ways to go.

"No wai momz!" -which would be a lie

"well, *mumble-stutter* I.. well.. look a squirrel!" - which means he knows you disapprove so he avoids

"Hellz yea! All da time yo!" -which allows you to open the door

"yes, but only because all my friends do, we are just playin around. We mean no harm" -again with the door

The thing is with what I understand is that you probably would be unaware he used this nasty term if you didn't enter his private world, so you have to think of that when addressing him. Trust issues with parents are a bear. I know from both sides, as a kid and as a parent.

Just my blabbering on the subject. I tend to be long-winded :)

Good luck helping your son learn the implications of bad communication.

:hug:

[Timefortruth]

93. Good advice. eom

[Inchworm]

96. Thank you

:)

[DS1]

53. the first step is to slap the emo out of him

the "N" word falls behind this in importance

[Midlodemocrat]

58. .

:thumbsup:

[ellisonz]

94. ...

:applause:

[Wcross]

64. "White trash" is also offensive.

Allow me to explain my theory. If you use the term "white trash" it implies that white people are somehow better than other ethnicity's. The people labeled "white trash" somehow don't belong to the white race?

[redqueen]

67. I have no frickin idea.

It seems so silly to me... if we can use bitch and gay in every which way, I don't know why that one word is off-limits. Some say it with hate, some with humor. Words don't really get to me, so...

I don't dare mess with it though. Too incendiary.

[NorthernSpy]

78. it's not "that one word" -- anti-Jewish slurs are ~at least~ equally off-limits...

I suggest you go there, if you're feeling adventurous.


It's the last thing you'll do on this board, I guarantee it.



And no, "bitch" and "gay" aren't equivalents of "nigger". Bitch is standard English for a female dog, and gay is in common acceptable usage for homosexual.


In the mouth of a white person, nigger is a dire caste insult -- period.

[redqueen]

79. Yeah... I forgot about Jewish slurs...

Bitch and Gay are also insults used to denigrate oppressed minorities.

Nigger was just a way to refer to black people when the term was first used... so there is no "period".

IMO we need to stop giving words so much power. They're frickin words.

[Richardo]

71. Wait wait time out....wrong to look at his communication? No way.

I disagree that it's wrong for you to look at his on-line communication. He's a minor, he's in your house, I'm guessing you pay for the internet service, etc etc. It's not only 'not wrong', I'd propose that it's pretty close to an parental obligation.

In any event, it's no more 'wrong' than an employer having the ability to monitor what communications their employees send on company equipment and/or company time.

"Be the parent", is my motto.

[Westegg]

87. Try educating him about the history of the word...

...by pointing him in the direction of books and internet sites that lay it all out there. There are so many! Let him learn for himself. I find kids today so ignorant of things that happened in the '60s, '70s, even '80s, let alone earlier times. Ignorance leads to prejudice leads to...well, fascism, for starters?

[Phillycat]

92. Kids use the word a lot these days.

I'm 35 and would never ever use it, but I think it's pretty normal for kids of all colors these days. I would ask him, "Would you use that if you were actually talking to a black friend of yours?" and see what he says. If he says no, maybe you'll have given him something to think about.

[QMPMom]

95. Anyone other than a person of African ancestry should *NEVER*

use the n-word. Ever.

Even they shouldn't use it, in my opinion, but that is their issue. I just know that others should *NOT* use it.

For any reason at all.

[Lyric]

98. I don't care how common or normal it might be

I would tear my kid a new rear end if I caught him using that word in *any* context. My own personal aversion to that word runs so deeply that I cannot bring myself to say it even in the context of purely academic discussion. I can't even *type* it, or read someone else who typed it, without feeling a little twinge of nausea.

My domestic partner and I run into the same issue with queer, fag, dyke, etc. Lots of our friends use those words to describe themselves in an effort to "reclaim" them, but neither of us will ever be able to hear those words without feeling sick. For my partner, it's because she's 41 years old and bears enormous scars associated with those words. For me, it's mostly because I love *her* and anything that hurts her, hurts me too.

Yes, they might be only words--but words have the ability to imprint themselves onto our souls. I would be perfectly happy to never have to hear another slur (reclaimed or otherwise) ever again.