Roger Clemmons

[Tuesday Afternoon]

Is he telling the truth?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. So sad.

I want to believe him. I really do.

[KitchenWitch]

2. If is lips are moving, he is lying.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. ~

:cry:

I just hate that he is lying about it.

[KitchenWitch]

4. I wish I were not so jaded.

My heart was broken when Kirby Puckett got in trouble about 5 years ago.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. So many have already owned up to it -- why lie about it now?

~trying NOT to be jaded~

[KitchenWitch]

6. I know.

[AlCzervik]

7. i can't get a good read from him to be honest, i met him once when i worked

in downtown Boston, i worked for the operation side of Filenes and he was appearing at our store and had to come through our office to avoid the crowds as other celebs had done in the past and was the least gracious about it. We all gave him a wide berth and no one bothered himand he was a dick so i'm biased when i say i don't believe a word he says.

[Maestro]

8. He's been an ass since his college days here in Texas.

He's lying. There is no doubt in my mind.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. That means a lot to me, coming from you Maestro.

:hi:

[Maestro]

47. There is no doubt that he is/was a very talented pitcher

but he did not handle his talent or fame at all. He can do so much with his high profile and money but he just continues to retire then make grand "comebacks" because he loves the limelight. This latest scandal is just horrible, but I am not surprised.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. Thanks. I have to admit these personal anecdotes hold weight.

All I have to go on is what I see on TV...the master of the lie.

[AlCzervik]

10. he was a Major League dick.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. gotcha

a talented dick, nonetheless.

[bmbmd]

11. I believe him.

nt.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. I really, really want to. I really do.

:pals:

[Connonym]

12. Watched him on 60 Minutes and my thought from his body language

is that he's lying his ass off.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. Yes. I saw it, too. It is what prompted this poll.

:hi:

[rurallib]

16. I've been saying he's been on 'roids since @ '97

While medicine and training have made great strides over the years, what Clemens and Bonds did was beyond human. When your HRs or spped on a fastball go up after 35, something is really hincky.

[regnaD kciN]

17. Other -- "Who's Roger CLEMMONS?"

:shrug:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. really?

William Roger Clemens (born August 4, 1962, in Dayton, Ohio), is a professional baseball player, a starting pitcher. He last pitched for the New York Yankees, and is one of the preeminent pitchers in major league history. In 2006, a poll of 32 ESPN analysts named Clemens the greatest living pitcher.<1> Clemens has won seven Cy Young Awards, two more than any other pitcher. He throws and bats right-handed.

Clemens debuted in the majors in 1984 with the Boston Red Sox, where he played for 13 seasons. In 1997 he moved to Canada to pitch for the Toronto Blue Jays for two seasons; in both seasons he won the pitching triple crown (leading the league in wins, ERA, and strikeouts) and the Cy Young Award.

He was traded to the New York Yankees for the 1999 season, where he had his first World Series success. In 2003, he reached his 300th win and 4,000th strikeout in the same game. Clemens is one of only four pitchers to have more than 4,000 strikeouts in their career, along with Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and Steve Carlton. Clemens played three seasons with the Houston Astros, where he won his seventh Cy Young. He rejoined the New York Yankees during the 2007 season.

On December 13, 2007, Clemens' name was listed in the Mitchell Report, which alleged that he had used steroids during the 1998-2001 seasons.

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Clemens

[Blue-Jay]

26. spelling...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. wow. just now noticed that

sorry

[liberaltrucker]

18. He's a certifiable liar

NO athlete achieves stats like his in their late 30's.

Circumstantial evidence, to be sure, but such evidence
convicted Manson. He juiced. Period.

Our consolation is that in 10 years or so, he'll need
a microscope to find his testicles. 'roids have
NASTY side effects!

:nopity:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. yes.

:rofl:

:hi:

[liberaltrucker]

23. We made it to Birmingham

:hi:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. good to read --

stay safe.

[bumblebee1]

59. Actually, Clemens is in his 40s.

I love the last line about needing a microscope to find his testes. That's bad, but in a funny way. I especially liked Mike Wallace's question of "Why would your trainer tell the truth about Andy Pettitte (sp) and then lie about you?"

[ChoralScholar]

20. I never did like him. He doesn't even deserve to sniff Nolan Ryan's jockstrap. EOM

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. I hear you.

:hi:

[ChoralScholar]

25. ...

"Great! Are you picking me up visually, as well?"
---George Carlin

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. haha.

I read you. Over and out. ~TA

[ChoralScholar]

29. pbbbbt

:P

I just teasing....

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. me too --

:pals:

[ChoralScholar]

31. Is your username

a play on the 'Tuesday Morning' retail store? My wife likes to shop there.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. actually, no. It is a song.

http://www.youtube.com/v/JjBvPHqO9KU&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1

[1]

34. eh... my contention is that steroids mean nothing in baseball.

football? yes.

weightlifting? yes.

baseball? no.



this is for all of you youngsters out there. when i was young i would get injured. i'd be out for a few days and then pop right back. as i got older, then older, then... (stop me, please) it became harder and harder and harder to recover from injury. what used to take days turned into weeks and then months.

did roger and barry, et. al. take shit to get them to recover faster? of course they did. you do not throw like roger does at, what is it, 45? you do not hit home runs like barry at pretty much the same age without help. the human body cannot recover at those ages from the abuses of the game.

but your steroid concern is misapplied.

baseball is not about bulk. its a game of skill and speed and timing and eyesight and reaction. steroids do nothing for those factors. the drugs roger and barry took were about recovering from the daily abuse to get their bodies back out there and do what they naturally could do. they expanded their careers through recovery with help of drugs. their skills were and are their skills.

unfair? well, let's see?

how do the drugs roger and barry take now to recover and get back into the game differ from the drugs sports stars have been taking forever?

cortisone injections? (btw, a steroid) pain killers? (like lidocaine). methamphetamines?


hate rodger and barry for both being assholes (or republicans if you want to put politics into play). that's cool. they are both assholes. and republicans. but don't diminish their skills for taking drugs to recover from injury like just about every player before them has.

lou gehrig did not have access to cortisone. if he did he could have taken it, no questions asked (as could any other player today in baseball. cortisone is an accepted steroid. forgiven. grandfathered in.)

so, some drugs used forever are ok. others? not so much.

bullshit.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. You make some very valid points. Thanks.

I think Roger alluded to this in the interview tonight.

edited to add: Welcome to DU Lounge :hi:

[1]

36. *smile*

thank you.

[pokerfan]

37. But don't Anabolics also help recovery?

Isn't one of the secondary effects of anabolics faster than natural recovery from the minute injury/stress of lifting? Which allows the lifter to train more often with fewer rest days.

[1]

38. i guess my point was...

rodger and berry are into these "modern" designer drugs. those that are not about the secondary effects of recovery. but those that have these natural recovery properties as their primary effects.

like cortisone. that steroid, that wonder drug invented in 1950, that thousands of athletes have used and continue to use even today without consequence in athletics.

yes. i'm sure that's what i meant.

[pokerfan]

39. I misunderstood then

I thought you were implying that Bonds and Clemens may have been using steroids for their secondary recuperative properties.

So you're saying that neither of them used steroids and were/are instead into benign "modern designer" drugs that the rules of baseball do not consider to be performance enhancing?

If steroids provide no benefit to the baseball player then why have players (Caminiti, Canseco, etc.) admitted to using them?

[Connonym]

60. corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are way different animals

I've had corticosteroid injections into my spine and nerve roots to reduce the inflammation from sciatica and herniated disks and I've taken oral steroids for my asthma. It's been a while since I studied pharmacology but there is a lot of medical benefit for corticosteroids, prednisone or Depo-Medrol, etc., in reducing inflammatory responses to treat anything from severe asthma flare ups to arthritis flare ups. I don't think (and I may very well be mistaken) that there's any dispute that corticosteroids are a legitimate tool to aid in healing and not the same as anabolic steroids to pump up and boost performance. With any kind of steroid there are side effects -- some of them pretty serious and even corticosteroids are used sparingly and usually only acutely and not chronically.

[Oeditpus Rex]

40. Baseball, most of its fans and Congress disagree with your contention

You're mischaracterizing cortisone. It's a corticosteroid, and the issue in baseball is with anabolic steroids and human growth hormone. Corticosteroids are "healers" and have no capacity for increasing muscle mass.

http://www.chem.yorku.ca/hall_of_fame/essays97/cortisone/cortison.htm



"(B)aseball is not about bulk."

[1]

41. to be clear...

i was just saying that i am old now and getting old is a bitch.

the hurts i used to recover from in days, now take me weeks and months to recover from. its nothing like i remember as a youth.

i truly believe that "steroids" for gaining bulk and muscle mass are not a factor in baseball. being able to see a pitch, react to a pitch and hit it out of the park is not a question of steroid induced muscle mass. look at joe dimaggio or willie mays. skinny little fucks. with great vision and great reactions. not bulk. not strength.

pitching like rodger does is not a question of muscle mass. that is skill.

i believe rodger and barry both took substances that allowed them to recover faster from the normal aging process to continue in the game. i believe that.

my only question was how is that so different from others that took "new" drugs in the past to accomplish the same thing. i used cortisone and pain relievers as examples. drugs not available to ty cobb or babe ruth or lou gehrig.

science advanced the drugs and baseball players took advantage. an advantage over those in the past. yet all of those that used them are cool and some in the hall.

science gave us "tommy john" surgery. grover cleveland alexander could have benefited from that.

where do you draw the line?




oh, and to my bud that posted the pictures of barry in his youth and now...

i looked like barry in my youth. and i grew too in my old age. maybe my hat size didn't increase so much. but my waist size did, oy!

[Oeditpus Rex]

42. You're missing one critical point

I grant you that vision and timing are the key elements in hitting a baseball. When a player's hitting, he'll typically say "I'm seeing the ball well." When he's not, it's "I'm not seeing the ball well."

But — and this applies to users and non-users of anabolic steroids — the difference between a homer and a long out can be as little as a few inches, and most position players regularly hit balls that are caught on the warning track. Given that a player like Bonds did not improve his vision or timing through steroid use, it remains that his increased muscle mass would frequently account for the difference betwen a 395-foot out and a 400-foot homer, or a ball hit just hard enough to split two outfielders and go to the wall or get past an infielder for a single.

Now, I'll also grant you that it probably isn't a good idea for pitchers to bulk up, as so much of pitching is about leverage — which is why so many of the great ones have been tall. But, there are "designer" steroids that work on different muscle groups, and a pitcher could increase his speed, and perhaps get a bit more snap on his breaking stuff, through use of steroids designed for the arms, upper back and legs, without bulking up.

Also, your argument about "Tommy John surgery" doesn't play here because all surgery is for repair, not improvement — as is the use of corticosteroids and some uses of anabolic steroids. There's a great difference between prolonging a career through "artificial" means and enhancing one. TJ, the "test case," wasn't a better pitcher than before the surgery; it simply enabled him to continue pitching, as it's enabled many other athletes to continue their careers.

Oh — did you ever see Mays with his shirt off? He wasn't bulky, but the guy was an amazing natural physical specimen. In particular, his back muscles were other-worldly.

[1]

43. eh...

who knows. you may be right, you may be wrong.

the one thing i do know, i never did see mr. mays with his shirt off. i'll take your word for his back muscles...

[MissMillie]

44. interesting that you posted him wearing a Red Sox uniform

the last uniform he was was Yankee pin stripes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. Yes, I know. Lazy me. First pic on google, I grabbed it and ran.

:hi:

[edbermac]

46. Well he's suing the guy now.

Roger Clemens filed a defamation lawsuit against his former trainer saying Brian McNamee falsely accused him of using performance-enhancing drugs only after he was "threatened with criminal prosecution if he did not implicate Clemens" to federal investigators.

"He lied to them and tried to say, ’Well, they pressured me,’ because he wanted to continue to stay in the good graces of Roger," the attorney Earl Ward said in a telephone interview.

Ward was present during the day of questioning by federal investigators in June, which was described in a lawsuit Clemens filed Sunday. Ward said McNamee will also say, under oath, he was not pressured.

Ward said the questioning by a federal investigator and assistant United States attorney was polite, nothing was thrown, and no threats were made. His account contradicted a statement McNamee had made to investigators for Clemens, which was quoted in the Clemens lawsuit.

"That’s far from what happened, far from what happened," Ward said in a phone interview. "It’s just Brian trying to stay in Roger’s good graces. He’s just blowing smoke."

Clemens’s defamation suit was filed Sunday in Harris County, Tex., and alleges that McNamee was pressured by federal prosecutors to provide information to former Senator George J. Mitchell’s investigators examining the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball after he initially said Clemens had never used banned substances. The suit lists 15 statements McNamee made to Mitchell that the suit contends are “untrue and defamatory.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/sports/baseball/08clemens.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. Thanks for the link.

:/

[Deep13]

48. The correct answer is, "Who gives a shit?" nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. I guess I could go have intelligent conversation in GD about --

how your candidate sucks and mine walks on water :D

[Ptah]

50. I believe him.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

58. ~

:hug:

I think in accordance with his definition, I do as well. ;)

I think.

[CreekDog]

51. ...is spelled wrong

as you've been told. teehee.

:spank:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

55. yeah. too late for edit

spank you very much :D

[Blue_Tires]

52. what a jaggoff

the shit is about to come raining down on him soon enough

[Tuesday Afternoon]

57. sure enough appears to be cloudy.

of course he can afford a pretty big umbrella.

[Bennyboy]

53. Clemens comes CLEAN ABOUT STEROIDS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhu74yBPlQ

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. ~

:rofl: