I just met a Marxist Christian Rocker. Ask me anything.

[Taverner]

Talked to the dude and he was real cool, had a very interesting philosophy. Plays Christian Punk which he calls "Praise Core". He's also really into Marx, social responsibility - voting for Obama even though he thinks he's too Conservative.

Told me a lot of the younger Christians are more and more liberal, and that the next wave of progressives will be from the Evangelical Churches.

[Critters2]

1. The only real (as in actually belong to the party) Socialists I ever met

were all Christian lefties. I know a bunch of Christian Marxists. There were a couple at the Theology and Peace thing I was at last week.

[sasquatch]

2. Outstanding

[LeftyMom]

3. Christian, punk, marxist?

:wtf:

Either somebody doesn't understand the whole Christianity thing, or he's missing the boat on both punk and Marx.

My inner anti-authoritarian is going to go have a good cry now.

[Critters2]

4. Doesn't understand what about Christianity? nt

[LeftyMom]

10. The whole concept, apparently.

It really isn't compatible with either the anti-authoritarian, DIY ethos of punk, or with the outspokenly anti-religion Marx.

[Critters2]

11. Girard says Christianity is anti-authoritarian at its core.

Christianity challenges social mimesis, which is the heart and soul of any authority. The authorities maintain their power with mimesis and the threat of mimetic rivalry. Christianity subverts mimesis, by pointing out its ultimate lack of power. Marxism is also anti-mimetic. And the idea of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need" is right out of the book of Acts.

44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need.
Acts 2:44-45

[LeftyMom]

13. Yeah, uhm, no.

The whole idea of kissing up to the divine, of an externally imposed set of rules, the whole idea of a priestly caste, and of worship, is pretty much the 180 degree opposite of punk (okay, there was Hardline, which was theistic, but that went badly.)

And Marx, who is generally considered the preminent authority on Marxism, is quoted upthread in his thoughts on religion.

Further, I don't think you can really describe Christianity as anti-authoritarian, when there's 2000 years of history of Christianity being used to prop up authority. And before you argue that's some kind of perversion, Christianity barely got off the ground before Paul started writing all and sundry to let them know that they were doing it wrong, so even before Christians had any power in the larger world, authoritarianism was well established in the early church.

[WildEyedLiberal]

15. Yet you seem to have no trouble reconciling Marxism with anti-authoritarianism

Despite the fact that Marxist ideology directly leads to a very autocratic state-centered form of government. And if you can blithely dismiss Christianity as "inherently authoritarian" based on its real world history (despite obviously having little to no interest in theology or theological history), then you really, really can't wiggle out of the fact that Marxism, based on its historical application, is one of the most authoritarian ideologies the world has seen. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and if you're going to point to the same tired old cliches about the church and the Inquisition and fundamentalism as proof that Christianity is inherently autocratic, then you can't really just pretend that Stalinist Russia didn't exist.

Personally, I don't think you or anyone else has any business telling this kid that he can't simultaneously consider himself Christian, punk, and Marxist, especially when your interpretation of the above is clearly based on your own personal prejudices rather than any real meaningful discussion about the ideologies therein.

[Unvanguard]

20. For what it's worth

nothing in Marxist ideology "directly leads to a very autocratic state-centered form of government", and Marx himself would have been horrified by the idea.

It may be possible to say the same about Jesus, but I'd prefer not to venture into that discussion.

[Taverner]

25. Really depends on what supposed "words from Jesus" you want to go by

But as for Marx, we have a pretty clear view he was not for Centralized Administration. He and Rousseau were of like minds.

[Unvanguard]

29. There are similarities.

But Rousseau was a better philosopher, and Marx a better social theorist. The result, as well as the intervening time between their writings, results in some striking and important differences.

I happen to like both a great deal.

Edit: On this particular topic, Rousseau could never have accepted any "dictatorship of the proletariat"... and Marx would never have recognized Rousseau's democratic ideal as possible within the framework of class society. (Of course, Rousseau himself may not have disagreed with that analysis. His writings on what economic equality should mean are in some respects quite Marxian, and of value.)

[Critters2]

34. It is precisely the same re: Jesus and Christianity.

If my faith gets blamed for the Inquisition, Marxists get Stalinism. As someone upthread put it, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

[ghostsofgiants]

22. Marxist ideology also talks about the whithering away of the state.

So there's that. Its historical application has used greatly distorted versions of the ideology. (Stalinism != Marxism, for example.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. Well, my point was that the same could be said for Christianity

"The historical application has used greatly distorted versions of the ideology" - precisely. To hold up the Inquisition or the Crusades and say "well this is what Christianity is all about" is akin to holding up the Soviet gulags and the Stasi and saying "look, this is what Marxism is." If one is unwilling to consider that the core ideology of Christianity has little or nothing in common with the way it has been abused throughout the centuries, then it seems exceedingly odd to me that such considerations are made for other ideologies. Either ideologies are judged by their historical applications or they aren't; you can't have it both ways and say that Christianity is inherently autocratic because of its history whereas Marxism is inherently anti-autocratic despite its history.

I for one don't believe that either ideology should be judged by the actions of those throughout the centuries who used them for political and personal gain.

[ghostsofgiants]

47. In that case we are on the same page.

[Critters2]

37. Punk, like all social trends, is based on mimesis.

I mean it's REALLY REALLY mimetic. Fads, trends, and movements that claim to be otherwise always give me a good chuckle.

[Ellen Forradalom]

38. I thought it was based on emesis

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Taverner]

24. It can be

And it can be not.

It really depends on what texts (Old Testament, New Testament, Jewish Apocrypha, Christian Apocrypha, Gnostic Bible, Nag Hamadi, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants) and which verses.

Some say to live a sinless life by hurting no animal, killing no one and living in peace with nature.

Some say to live in an autocratic regime as a pawn in the great leviathan known as the state.

Some say that all of this that we call reality is in fact, a dream, and that the reality is that Satan is using our bodies for sinful propagation (think Matrix).

Some say to live in communes, working for the common good - and that we should treat all as equals.

And some says some weird stuff that makes absolutely no sense.

That's just it - you're talking about amalgams of amalgams. Christianity itself is an amalgam of the popular religions of a turbulent time.

But that's not the point. My question is what is the end result?

Yes, I agree its a little Machiavellian. But hey - Carl Sagan put it best when he said "Who speaks for man?"

[SoxFan]

32. Jesus wasn't executed for securities fraud

Remember Jesus going postal on the money changers in the temple precinct?

Urging his followers to denounce their worldly possesions?

Pissing off the Roman authorities and their allies in the Jewish elite?

Sounds like your the one who doesn't grasp Christianity. Read up on Dorothy Day, Oscar Romero, and Martin Luther King and then explain how Christianity is an authoritarian/establishmentarian notion.

[Kutjara]

6. You took the words out of my mouth.

Mark wrote, in his critique of Hegel, "Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."

Hard to reconcile "Christian" with "Marxist," no matter how hard "liberation theologists" try to argue otherwise.

[Taverner]

7. His logic was similar to Vonnegut's

That the whole "opium of the masses" was taken out of context - in its day Opium was a very important painkiller - in fact it was all they had. If you were in severe pain - it was a godsend.

Thing about the Bible is that it can be taken in any context you want it to. Just choose specific verses and it can say anything. That's why, to me, it is nothing more than fiction. Lots of fiction can have good messages and bad messages - but that doesn't mean any of it ever happened.

[JVS]

12. It works if one acknowledges that our society has moved on to a new dominant religion: consumerism

[Taverner]

27. Oh, of course

Christianity and Consumerism have morphed into one.

This Leviathan of its own has given lip service from one side to the other, but it is clear they are but one beast.

[Unvanguard]

21. Have you considered, alternatively

that your understanding of Christianity is simply one of many, not necessarily guaranteed absolute correctness?

Indeed, if it is really true that Christianity is the religion of love, justice, and peace, as Christians undoubtedly believe, would it not follow that Christianity should believe in progressive ideals of equality and freedom?

[struggle4progress]

39. I think yer jest grouchy about missin yer chance t'join th'Amish Punk Commune

[AnneD]

5. Everything old is new again.....

over a century ago, most Christians WERE firmly planted on the left and were responsible for many reform acts. Folks have been so brainwashed and Falwell did such a good job of co-opting the faith that folks heve forgotten.

Dorthy Day comes to mind first but there were many others.

[Taverner]

9. Dorthy Day, Cornell West, Desmond Tutu, MLK Jr....

I could go on.

[SoxFan]

33. Oscar Romero

[Critters2]

35. Shot while celebrating communion.

Still breaks my heart to ponder it.

[SoxFan]

45. A true martyr for Christ

Sadly, a handful of reactionaries in the curia have roadblocked his path to sainthood. Someday, though, I am sure he will be recognized by the Church as the hero he is.

[AnneD]

51. Any Christian...

or any other person of faith that dies in a peaceful cause is a saint, recognized or not. Just because a flower blooms in a field and someone doesn't see it does not make the flowers less beautiful to God.

[ronnykmarshall]

8. Holy shit, Comrade!

[Crabby Appleton]

14. Did he have any opiates for the masses?

[Chan790]

17. Screw the masses...

Did he have any opiates for me?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. There are more Christian Marxists (or at least democratic socialists) than

the average DUer might imagine.

[WildEyedLiberal]

18. That's because the average DUer is so wrapped up in scoffing at religion that he/she doesn't care

It's pretty sad that, rather than a thread full of people expressing admiration for this young man who clearly cares about social justice and peace, we have a litany of kool kids in the cafeteria making fun of the loser who dares to hold an idea they don't agree with. Rather than happily welcoming him into the fold or being glad that he has raised his voice for the cause of justice, they'd rather play the "I'm more progressive than you" game and insist that he can't be a REAL Marxist/leftist as long as he is religious. I guess these people would rather he be a conservative fundamentalist Christian than swallow their pride and accept him as a fellow "lefty." And then those exact same people wonder why so few people wish to consider themselves leftists. They chase away anyone who doesn't meet their rigorous standards of purity and then complain that the "sheeple" just won't conform to their worldview.

[AnneD]

41. ITA.....

the level of vitriol aimed at people of faith on even this site is hurtful, disheartening, and uncalled for. We are not the enemy.

People of deep faith are not sheeple, but are shepherds. They care for the poor, lift up the downtrodden, and protect the weak. And really, isn't THAT what we have been needing.

I had faith growing up-and then it was co-opted by the 'religious right'. At the time I did not understand what was going on and I let them take my faith from me. But in time, I met others like me. In our fellowship, we pieced together what was happening. We have been working very hard ever since to expose these 'wolves in sheep's clothing' for what they truly are. And believe me when I say that for the last 8 years, it has been my faith that at points have been the only thing keeping me going.

The brouhaha about the George Bush presidential library at SMU wasn't just a coincidence and didn't happen overnight. There are others of faith that are opening their eyes and beginning to put faith into action. Expect to see more.

[DS1]

42. nice

:thumbsup:

[Unvanguard]

19. Leftist religion is awesome.

Some of the people involved in the Liberation Theology movement similarly attempted a fusion of Christianity and Marxism.

I am neither a Christian nor a Marxist, but if it brings people to build movements against social injustice, I support it.

[Deep13]

26. So we have to fool people to liberate them?

I don't know which is more disturbing: that people accept this or that it might be true.

[Unvanguard]

28. If they are fooled, then they are not liberated.

I don't believe I suggested "fooling" anyone.

[Deep13]

30. "leftist religion is awesome"

"Leftist religion" means they are switching from one lying master to another. They are acting because they think they have a divine mandate and not because it is a good idea.

[Unvanguard]

31. You assume that the two are mutually exclusive.

But the simple fact of the matter is that the divine mandate is quite explicitly identified with that which is a "good idea"--at least in the sense of just idea, right idea--in virtually every religion on the planet.

Thus, when facing conditions of social injustice where justice seems to require changes to the prevailing social system, it is only natural, and in no sense dishonest, that this is spoken of in terms of "divine mandate." God says to do justice--well, this is doing justice.

Most people around the world do not think in the terms of purely secular ethics, but that does not mean that they are amoral.

[Critters2]

36. You can only know they're lying if you--and you alone--know ultimate reality.

Otherwise, you're just being pompous.

[ghostsofgiants]

23. I've met a few of those in my day.

It's pretty comforting to know that not all religious folk are ultraconvervative types.

[DS1]

43. Here come the communist theologian punk-movement experts

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

44. The responses on this thread...

The responses on this thread are examples of the fundamental reason I originally came to DU (and stay out of GDP)-- well intentioned discourse, salient points from all sides, civility, point vs. counter-point, and juicy nuggets of Things I Never Knew Before.


:toast:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

46. Is a Marxist Christian sort of like the "Socialist Libertarian" I once met? nt

[Critters2]

48. Okay, I gotta admit. "Socialist Libertarian" I just don't get. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

49. I didn't get it either.

It was one of those people who desperately wanted to sound smarter than she actually was, but only served to confuse me.

[nomorenomore08]

50. Social libertarian + economic socialist = socialist libertarian?

That sounds about right to me. I guess the idea is a government that provides for its citizens' basic needs (housing, health care, etc.), while at the same time staying out of their personal affairs as much as possible. From my perspective that seems like the best of both worlds.