Maybe my family is heartless, but this creeps me out.

[Drunken Irishman]

A year ago my cousin's wife lost their baby. She had been pregnant for almost seven months and while I don't remember what happened, the baby died. They're a young couple and didn't have much money, so my mom offered to bury the child in our family plot. In that plot is my great grandparents, grandparents and brother, who died of cancer at the age of 12. It's also in a Catholic cemetery, since we're Catholic. However, my cousin's wife's family are LDS. That caused some issues early on, when they wanted to bless the grave with a Mormon, but a compromise was made and I thought things worked out decent enough.

His still birth was a year ago yesterday and her side of the family decided yesterday they were going to throw a birthday party for the dead child. That part is not too bad, however, they decided to hold it at the cemetery, on our family plot. They brought up cake, a table, lawn chairs, a blanket and pizza and right there on our family plot held a picnic. That creeps me the fuck out. I find it morbid, distasteful and most importantly, disrespectful. I've never heard of holding a birthday party at a grave site, especially with a huge table, chairs, cake and pizza. It's just really creepy.

Anyway, this has upset my mom because everyone in her family she's ever loved that has died is buried right on the spot where they held their picnic. And I think I agree with her. Maybe I'm not emotional or sentimental enough, but I do not find something like this cool at all. I mean, a cemetery is not a park, it's a place to pay respect to the dead. You can celebrate a birth, you can mourn a death, but to throw a party on the site of the dead? I don't know about that.

Are we wrong? Are we just heartless?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. its very creepy. however if that helps with their bereavement is it really all that important to you

but i do agree its super duper creepy

[Drunken Irishman]

5. I think it has more to do with the fact it's our family plot.

I also will add, it was a surprise party. The parents had no idea it was going on.

[Dora]

28. Now that's what makes it creepy.

A surprise?

I was okay with the idea of celebrating the "birth" day, and was even okay with having it in the cemetery. I do agree that it was in poor taste not to take your mother's wishes into consideration, but I would call that rude rather than creepy.

But the PARENTS of the stillborn weren't in on it? That's the ultimate weirdness. Whoever planned it must have some wires crossed.

[hedgehog]

2. Every culture addresses death differently.

Some Catholic cultures hold parties on the grave sites on All Soul's Day. That said, what would have been wrong with respecting YOUR culture and holding the party elsewhere?

[Sheets of Easter]

3. It's not cool. At least I don't think so.

A. It's creepy to have a birthday party for someone who died, and

B. It's creepy to have a birthday party ON THE GRAVE SITE of someone who died.


A cemetery is not the proper place for a party. Rent out a freakin' VFW hall, for crying out loud.

[leeroysphitz]

63. You've never been to Graceland have you?

:)

[Shell Beau]

4. I find it odd myself, but people do different things.

And your mom did let them bury the baby there. So now it has a piece of them there. Do they know this is bothering your mom? If not, maybe it should be brought up.

I personally don't like the idea of a party at the cemetery. But that is a personal thing.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. My mom brought it up.

She wrote a letter to my cousin's mother and it was a very reasonable letter. She just outlined her feelings and my cousin called my mom up ripping her and screaming at her that she had no right to voice her concerns.

:(

[Shell Beau]

10. Well I think your mom has every right to voice her concerns.

That is a sacred place for her and your family.

[Inchworm]

6. I think as far as it all goes

They should have celebrated elsewhere. If there were issues beforehand they should have thought about respecting the beliefs of those in the area before agreeing.

:hi:

[Symarip]

7. Dude

That's just fucking weird. I mean, I don't know how to feel about the story, let alone how I think I'd react.

People are fucking strange.

[MrCoffee]

9. Party at the tombstone = creepy.

I can understand the desire to remember the child, but to have cake and pizza at the cemetery?


That's just plain old fashioned creepy.

[malta blue]

11. IIRC, during the 18th & 19th c., holding a picnic

in a cemetary was common practice.

Now I don't know about celebrating the birth/death of an infant, but everyone handles the death of their child in their own way.

It's may not fit into how you would have dealt with it, but it is not uncommon.

[Gormy Cuss]

58. It was fairly common in Victorian times, when the great garden cemeteries flourished in the U.S.

Some garden cemeteries even had picnic grounds.

[malta blue]

59. thanks for the confirmation....

I was hoping that I wasn't making that up, and I could not specifically recall whether it was the Victorian era or not.

[supernova]

12. It's rather out there, but

not dissimilar to Mexican Day of the Dead activities ... where they have a night picnic at the grave site, fully feeling the presence of their missing loved ones.

However, since it's your family plot, they should have checked with your family first to see if it was OK. Since it wasn't, it was rather tacky of them to hold their little ceremony there anyway.

[livetohike]

13. I've seen picnic pavillions in small graveyards throughout

the South. At first, I thought that was odd, but then perhaps people feel close to their deceased loved ones and want to spend the day with them :shrug:.

I don't know enough about the Mormon faith to understand why they would want to do the party at the grave site.

[supernova]

18. Tents for the graveside service

usually.

People accompany the body to the gravesite. There is usually a small graveside service at the end of a funeral here. The family sits in the tent and whoever wishes can gather round outside the tent. The priest/minister says the usual "ashes to ashes..." It makes it very intimate. This is very welcome if the weather is too hot or it's raining. If the person was military, the flag is presented then. Afterwards, you go back to the church or other place and have a reception, usually a light lunch because funerals are often in the morning or around lunchtime. This is a much lighter time, time to visit and see old friends. :D

I've never heard of picnics in the graveyard, but people do spend time in them, great places to think.

[livetohike]

22. Thanks supernova

but the pavillions I saw were permanent structures. Just like a pavillion at a park.....

I thought it was odd, because I've lived in SC and TX and have gone to the cemetery for funerals. I didn't notice these pavillions at the ones I've been to.

[Common Sense Party]

77. Nothing in the Mormon faith requires, suggests, or encourages

such a practice. This is a personal decision by this family.

[bif]

14. In Mexico they celebrate the Day of the Dead

And that's exactly what they do. They have a huge picnic out at the cemetery. And actually, I've always thought that was just plain weird.

[Drunken Irishman]

16. They're not Mexican.

And this isn't their plot. So I can understand doing it if it were your plot, but it made my mom and aunts feel uncomfortable, since it is theirs.

What makes it worse is my aunt, my cousin's mom, didn't want to go because she thought it was strange and would be entirely uncomfortable. So the problem here is that holding it there alienates some of the family and an event like this should be the least uncomfortable as possible.

I don't know why they couldn't have held it at a park or a house.

[bif]

23. Actually, the part I find creepy is celebrating a birthday

Of a dead baby.

[Whisp]

79. can you explain why? I'm genuinely interested.

I don't find this stuff creepy at all, just different from wht we westerners are accustomed to.

[NJmaverick]

15. The whole things sounds creepy to me

the birthday party for a still born. Holding a party in a cemetery. It really is bizarre and little bit macabre, in my opinion.

[MrsBrady]

17. people grieve in different ways

Have you ever lost a child?

I have. I had a miscariage. I didn't even get to bury or even NAME my child!

Let them grieve they way they want. Have some freaking compassion.

You wouldn't want anyone telling YOU how to grieve.

[GCP]

24. I had a full term stillborn baby

And I think it's a creepy idea what they did.

[LeftyMom]

19. That's bizzare, and your mom is right to be offended.

And before anybody jumps my shit, I've had a second trimester miscarriage, so I have some sympathy for the bereaved family. A loss isn't an excuse to shit on the feelings of the living.

[ghostsofgiants]

20. Kinda weird, but honestly, anyone wants to hold a party on my grave once I'm dead, go for it.

I'll be dead, I won't care.

[LeftinOH]

21. A graveside birthday party for a stillborn infant... thats messed up, IMO

[Shell Beau]

29. Just because it is a stillborn infant doesn't make it any easier of a loss.

I think the graveside party is creepy, but that would go for any kind of dead person.

[jobycom]

25. Never judge people for how they handle their grief. nt

[SidneyCarton]

26. As a Mormon, may I chime in?

Picnicking at the gravesite is not a religious custom of our faith, so this was something personal for the parents. If your family stated their lack of comfort with such proceedings (as I gather from the OP they did) then it was very insensitive for the couple to do this. That said, I'm willing to cut them a little slack, as they lost a child, and that tends to skew a persons perceptions. I don't think you're heartless, your family's wishes should have been respected, it is the resting place for their dead too, and therefore hallowed ground.

[Drunken Irishman]

36. I kinda figured it wasn't a Mormon thing.

What gets me is they didn't even ask my aunt Kathy, whose parents are buried there, her nephews are buried there and her grandparents are buried there. They should have known holding a party at the grave site might make some uncomfortable and that should have been reason enough to check with the family before doing this. They didn't and when my mom voiced her concern, in a fairly moderate way, the shit hit the fan.

[SidneyCarton]

39. I agree, it was insensitive, and their response was bizarre.

I cannot explain it. That said I cannot know what kind of pain they suffer from their loss. I can understand wanting to be close to my child, but at what cost? There is no reason for the disrespect they showed you and your family.

[Common Sense Party]

76. I was just about to do the same thing.

As a Mormon, let me just say this is NOT something I would EVER even consider doing. It's not standard LDS practice, that's for sure.

I find the idea a bit creepy and beyond odd.

I don't know about asking permission from the rest of the family. It was something they felt very strongly about, and I can't imagine how that conversation would go. "We'd like to have a pizza party for our stillborn child right by Gramma's grave. Is that okay with you?"

[Mad_Dem_X]

27. I vote creepy

Disrespectful, too, IMO. One has to wonder if they are planning to hold a party every year.

[Sugar Smack]

30. It's the pizza thing that gives me pause.

I don't tend to judge others' ways of grieving, but the pizza seems odd.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

32. What?

Chinese would have been better?

Or a big old grill?

You're right. I'd have stayed with simple delicatessen. Maybe some fresh fruit.

[Sugar Smack]

35. No, Tangerine LaBamba, it reminds me of FRAT PARTIES,

which is why *to me* it was odd. But like I said before, I don't tend to judge the manner in which people grieve.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. You had pizza at frat parties?

Damn. All we had was beer and weed.

You obviously went to a better school than I did.

[Sugar Smack]

38. Heh! :D

I went to ECU. We went all out.;-)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

40. What's ECU?

I should know, I'm sure, but I'm currently academically challenged.

I'm just thankful I can remember the parties..............

[Sugar Smack]

44. Sorry; East Carolina University

in Greenville, NC. Some call it a party school. They could be right: many of us were academically challenged and can't remember the parties.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

31. It's rather life-affirming, in a strange way.....

Good that they were able to close our a mourning period with this sort of observation, and, look, it's nothing but dirt. Real estate. There's nothing inherently sacred about cemeteries, when you stop and think about it. If there are strong feelings about such events taking place, consider the dead, and how they might encourage the living to do things that are joyous. Isn't that, after all, the point of Christianity and, oh, yes, Catholicism? That the greater reward is in the afterlife?

So, death's just another page to be turned (thank you, Bob Seger), and why not have a party in a cemetery?

Anyone get any complaints from folks who are buried there?

I thought not.

Compared to what we did as teenagers in our local cemeteries, this is, trust me, absolutely nothing. If every beer bottle and condom that found itself being put to good use in our youthful cemeteries were laid end to end, well, so were we.

Cemeteries, I think, are for the living. So why not party it up?

[Z_I_Peevey]

33. First Sunday in May

at the backwoods church in Mississippi my grandparents attended is always a time for a big dinner-on-the-ground, as we like to call it.

The dinner is not usually on the graves themselves, but the occasion marks family reunions, gravetending and a celebration of life and spring.

Make of that what you will.

[tigereye]

34. this is really common in other cultures - when my uncle a missionary

priest died in Korea, they sent us a film of folks who loved him picnicking on the anniv. of his death at the gravesite. And the Day of the Dead is a big deal in Mexico, with similar festivities.


We even used to have little parties at my youngest brother's grave sometimes, I think it's a nice thing to do to remember someone.



But maybe some discussion with your mom first might have been a good idea.... before the picnic.



I was gonna say, we of Irish ancestry prefer to hold our wakes in the living room with the dear departed and a glass in our hands.... ;)

[Lex]

41. do they give other dead relatives birthday parties?

:shrug:

[REP]

42. Vulgar and Tastless

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public" - HL Mencken

This fetishizing of stillbirths and miscarriages is creepy and distasteful.

[Shell Beau]

43. I don't get what you mean "fetishing".

A loss is a loss. I don't have any right to tell someone else how they should handle their loss.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

45. How horrid

When we used to walk through the big and very old cemetery where my family have been buried for generations, we talk in whispers and never walk on the graves. If I saw a family having a picnic there it would make me sick.

There's a church and cemetery in the village where my parents live. One summers day I was taking a stroll there and saw this young women all alone quietly weeping against a big old gravestone, I turned and walked the other way and left her with her dead.

What is this world coming to when people have parties on the deceased?

[redqueen]

46. No... not wrong or heartless... that's frickin creepy.

No two ways about it.

You know who else had a party for her dead kids at their gravesite? That lady who killed her kids. Wish I could remember her name...

[Rabrrrrrr]

47. I don't think there's anything there to be offended by.

It's odd, sure - but it's neither "disrespectful" of the dead, nor offensive in any way.

In times past, cemeteries were the city parks - people had picnics and parties in cemeteries all the time.

And, seriously - it's not like there's actually anyone in there. It's just dead, decomposing flesh underneath all that grass and tombstones. The people are in heaven.

[Drunken Irishman]

48. Fair enough, but obviously people do find it offensive.

And disrespectful and since it's our plot and not theirs, they should have had the decency to ask before throwing a huge pizza party there.

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. But the question always is, "Is it worth being offended by it?"

I don't think it's at all worth being offended by it, excepting - maybe - that they could have asked first, just to be sure.

But cemeteries are, unless they are purely private, public spaces, and the public is free to go in there and be on whatever plots they want.

I don't want to discount any pain that some of your family are feeling about this, but in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things this is totally nothing to be offended by, worked up about, or otherwise put more than a nanosecond of thought into it.

[redqueen]

50. Yeah... not like someone's hairstyle or shirt or something. (nt)

[Rabrrrrrr]

51. Darn right!

But that's only ranting for fun, not for real.

[redqueen]

53. Yeah...

sorry, couldn't resist! :D

[Drunken Irishman]

52. It's a private cemetery owned by the local Catholic diocese.

And while I respect your point, I try to not disparage what some people find offensive or disrespectful. The point is, it's my mom's plot, her mother and father and son are buried in there and she found it disrespectful. Now you might not see any problem with that, however, there are many who feel cemeteries are sacred ground and should be respected. This is why my parents never let me run around a cemetery when I was younger like I would in a park and feel this really isn't any different.

Plus, my aunt, his mother, felt uncomfortable having a pizza party, with a long table and chairs, on the ground her parents are buried in. I can respect and understand why someone would think this. And then to jump down my mom's throat because she aired her concerns, like my cousin did, well that just made things worse. People have their beliefs and maybe these people don't find it disturbing or disrespectful at all, however, it's not their plot and they shouldn't be surprised or upset that some people have voiced their concerns.

[My Good Babushka]

54. I don't find anything wrong with it

As long as they cleaned it up nicely and left the area as they found it. I think cemetary picnics are nice. A meal is just another ritual. And something that people often feel more connected to than some abstract prayer or church service.

[MilesColtrane]

55. That part that gets me is...

celebrating a birthday on the day a being died.

Seems like if they honestly want to celebrate a fetal soul they should do so on it's conception date.

At least they didn't blast the headstone with silly string ala Darlie Routier.

[sniffa]

56. Um, wow.

:wow:

Was there silly-string involved too? If so, that's super creepy.

[MrScorpio]

57. I totally agree with you

I really don't know what else to say

[knitter4democracy]

60. It's done in Russia.

A bit differently, granted, but a the year memorial, the family and loved ones have a picnic on the grave and even lay out a dish of food for the deceased that they leave there. I saw it a few times when I was there in college.

In our Russian Orthodox church, we do it at church instead. We do the year memorial service at the end of liturgy and then have a meal instead of the usual donuts (and for our last priest, we had a big potluck).

[Inspired]

61. I see nothing wrong with doing this. I wouldn't but it's hardly disrespectful.

[Drunken Irishman]

62. Ok.

Well I guess we disagree, but I'd hope you would at least have the decency to ask the people who own the plot if they felt comfortable with this and if they didn't, you'd find another place.

[Quakerfriend]

68. Yes, and this, imo, is the essence of the problem.

They should not have done this if your mom was not for it, in any way.

They should have asked and they should have found another place, simple as that.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

64. Each culture has their own way of mourning their deceased loved ones

I do not think we have the right to judge the cultures and traditions of another group of people as creepy. For your relatives it may be that they wanted to share the occasion close to where the dead member of the family is buried because they feel that they are closer to that person's spiritual being by being close to their physical remains. What one person finds morbid and distateful, another person may find to be healing. I personally wouldn't do it but to each their own I guess

What I do think is unfortunate is that they did not consult your mother about their intentions since the child is buried on her family plot. Even while I respect their customs and traditions, I think they also have an obligation to respect your mother's customs and traditions.

I think all parties involved may need to sit down and talk about their various values and beliefs and try and reach some sort of acceptable framework which is agreeable to both families on issues such as this. Otherwise the cultural and religious differences between the two families may just lead to more tensions and misunderstandings

[quakerboy]

65. Its a little odd

But... El Dia de Los Muertos.

The surprise party aspect is definitely out there.

[DarkTirade]

66. Yeah, that is a little strange.

To say the least.

[madeline_con]

67. This reminds me of Darlie Routier

The public was also horrified by newscasts of Routier and other family members holding a "birthday party" at the children's grave. The grave had been under hidden police surveillance to obtain evidence against Routier, in the event that she were to break down or otherwise make a confession near the graveside. Darlie arrived with a local television crew she had invited, essentially rendering moot any need for police surveillance. At the birthday party, Routier was shown laughing and spraying silly string on her sons' grave. Darlie yelled out to her dead children that she loved them, all the while grinning and chewing bubble gum.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie_Routier

.................

Edited to add a little cemetary history

Laurel Hill in Philadelphia and Green-Wood in Brooklyn followed upon Mount Auburn's success. The public loved the new cemeteries and they became a place for weekend walks amidst the monuments. As the need for more open space developed, landscape architects turned to the examples of these three burial sites. Frederick Law Olmstead had many chances to view Green-Wood Cemetery. When his Central Park was opened to the public view, it was an immediate success. Its enthusiastic fans commented about how it was like a cemetery without the monuments.

http://www.alsirat.com/silence/history.html

[LibraLiz1973]

69. It is different, for sure.

I don't even know what to say about that.
I'd be creeped out too, for what it's worth.
But maybe they needed that?

[harmonicon]

70. I think that's totally fucked up

.... but there are loads of things about LDS that I think are totally fucked up.

[begin_within]

71. Well, now we know the next John Waters or Coen Brothers film.

[begin_within]

72. How can they celebrate a birthday when no birth took place?

[Runcible Spoon]

73. you're entitled to your feelings, but honestly just let it go.

be the bigger person and let them do what they need to grieve. As others have pointed out, it's a cultural difference and I don't really think your ancestors are being disturbed by this, just you and your mom. If you can get over it, everyone would be better off.

[Danger Mouse]

74. Stillbirths...people go through some weird shit with those...

and react to them in weird, weird, weird ways sometimes.
Fucking CREEPY ways.

[Whisp]

75. neither wrong or heartless. different strokes for diffrent folks.

my hub and I have talked about 'that time' and we both agree anythiing traditional is not acceptable. put us in a beer or coffee can, save some funeral director from a Hawaii trip, have a party and live it up for the living.

we all grieve and remember in different ways, none of it is wrong until proven

[orleans]

78. you said your cousin and his wife didn't know about it ahead of time?

i wonder how they felt when they realized what was happening.

if that was me who had lost the baby i would hardly be able to celebrate--i would have been horrified over this surprise party when my heart would have still been broken (some of us fall totally in love with our babies before they are even born). i would not have reacted in a positive way at all to their idea of a party for my daughter. i probably would have lost my fucking mind actually.

and i think it was completely disrespectful of the family to whom the grave site belongs to if they didn't ask or get a go-ahead first.

curious as to how the baby's mother took the whole event.

[Blue Diadem]

80. It's not worth creating a family feud over it.

The baby was your cousin's in-laws relative too. While the party idea is odd, I've seen many things left at graves that indicate people were there to celebrate and honor the deceased in their own ways.

Here's some of the items I've seen at two independent cemeteries we have relatives at: stuffed animals, riding toys and other small toys for children, balloons, Easter egg trees, fully decorated artificial Christmas trees complete with presents, sports memorabilia and equipment, champaign glasses, unopened beer cans and wine bottles. I've seen people with lawn chairs or blankets sitting with their deceased loved ones.

I've noticed a difference between the large Catholic cemetery other relatives are buried at and the two I referenced above. There is nothing on the graves except the markers. They only allow a grave blanket at Christmas for a very short time. At the other two, families are allowed to not only leave items mentioned previously, but they can also plant blooming flowers and place hanging baskets of flowers on shepherds hooks, along with wind chimes, bird houses and bird feeders.

I think you're dealing with perhaps a difference of belief in ways of honoring the deceased. I don't think you and your family are heartless, nor do I think the other family meant to dishonor your relatives or offend you and your family.