How can Beethoven not be your favorite composer?

[Cheswick2.0]

I am listening to his piano sonata #8 in C minor (pathetique). It is more than beautiful, it is beyond discription. When I listen to his music I cry and I don't even know why. It feels like gratitude. I think of the musicians and the conductor who work together and how that feels to perfect something like a great piece of music for performance. I also get jealous that I can not participate.

Why didn't I practice my violin when I was a kid? ARG

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Ummm, cause there is Mozart and Vivaldi around?

[Cheswick2.0]

2. they are good too

= )

[laconicsax]

19. Both are lightweights

in comparison to others--Vivaldi was nothing even close to Bach. Mozart contributed to an already established era of music--simply building on Haydn's work.

Beethoven surpassed Mozart in absolutely every genre of music. Everyone goes off on how Mozart was a child prodigy, well, guess what: So was Saint-Saens and several other composers.

Both Baroque and Classical composers composed in a box--most 1st year college theory students can compose in those boxes--they're basically plug a melody into a formula and go styles. Everything after that did away with such

However, Beethoven isn't the greatest composer ever for several good reasons: Brahms (despite his immature orchestration), Mahler, Richard Strauss, Debussy, Ravel, Shostakovich, and Bartok.

-Brahms picked up right where Beethoven left off (symphony wise). His chamber works are exquisite.

-Mahler's symphonies are among the greatest works of the 19th century
(he composed several of them in the early 1900s, but he was still using the 19th century style. In my not so humble opinion, he's the best ever.

-Richard Strauss's compositions showed amazing prowess starting with his first compositions when he was 10 years old. His early compositions came at the end of the Romantic era, and his later ones came in the beginning of the neo-classical period of modern music. Listen to Don Juan, Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, Eine Alpensinfonia, and Ein Heldenleben for his symphonic works. His 1st horn concerto was written when he was 18 years old and is more in the style of Mendelssohn.

-Debussy wrote La Mer, which is one of the few pieces that literally paints a picture of the subjects.

-Ravel wrote some things that are awe inspiring like his piano concerto for the left hand. His Pavane for a Dead Princess is a 6 minute period where time just stops. He also orchestrated Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition (orginally written for piano) with complete mastery of the early 20th century orchestra.

-Shostakovich...just listen to his symphonies.

-Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra. One of the best works of all time. It's simply amazing to hear. (If you're in the Seattle area, the Marrowstone Music Festival is performing it Sunday at 3PM at Western Washington University)


edit: typo

[Sick of Bullshit]

28. I disagree

Both Mozart and Beethoven studied under Papa Haydn, and works of both composers reflect their mentor's style. Beethoven's First Piano Concerto, which debuted in 1792, closely resembles the piano concerto style of his two famous contemporaries, while the opening of Beethoven's 4th Symphony was strongly influenced by the opening of Haydn's Clock Symphony. Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto in c minor shows more than just a passing resemblance to Mozart's Piano Concerto #20 in d minor.

Naturally, there is a clearly identifiable pattern to Baroque and Classical genres. This is completely understandable when we consider how these composers made their bread and butter-- writing works for wealthy sponsors. Chamber music, for example, was not meant to be thought provoking or out of the mold, just soothing music for whatever archduke or count commissioned it, and Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven all wrote chamber pieces that are virtually indistinguishable from one another but satisfied their intended purposes.

As for Mozart, he didn't merely build on Haydn's work-- he ventured into new dimensions, as evidenced by such works as Die Zauberflöte-- a political critique disguised as opera. Unfortunately, Mozart died soon after this groundbreaking work, at the ripe young age of 36, so it is anyone's guess as to what kind of style he could have developed had he had more time to explore his musical possibilities.

As for Beethoven surpassing Mozart in virtually all genres of music, that is a matter of personal interpretation and taste. In his 36 years, Mozart wrote 27 piano concertos, while Beethoven, in his 56 years, wrote only 5. Mozart wrote 6 major operas (and some minor ones), while Beethoven managed only one, Fidelio, which was an instant flop. Mozart wrote 6 violin concertos, while Beethoven is known for just one.

Mozart penned 41 symphonies, while Beethoven managed 9. However, this is the area where Beethoven really stands out against Mozart: all but the last two of Mozart's symphonies are all but forgotten, while Beethoven composed several memorable symphonies that featured themes which are still widely recognized today. And there is no doubt that Beethoven's 9th Symphony is the greatest work of its genre ever written.

[oneighty]

30. Hadyn/Mozart

I have four Mozarts, one Hadyn on my CD player.

When Haydn comes up he is (So far) hard to

distinguish from Mozart. Now I know why.

Thanks, sick of bs.

Ed

[ozymandius]

48. With all respect to Haydn -

Beethoven's First Symphony is the one that reminds us that he had a few lessons with Haydn: The First is the only Beethoven Symphony with a Menuet (3rd movement). The lessons did not last long as Beethoven was an hauty brat. Funny though - Beethoven auditioned to take lessons from Mozart but did not impress.

As for Beethoven surpassing Mozart in virtually all genres of music, that is a matter of personal interpretation and taste. In his 36 years, Mozart wrote 27 piano concertos, while Beethoven, in his 56 years, wrote only 5. Mozart wrote 6 major operas (and some minor ones), while Beethoven managed only one, Fidelio, which was an instant flop. Mozart wrote 6 violin concertos, while Beethoven is known for just one.

It really is difficult to compare these two. Mozart in his lifetime was known as a composer of opera. The rest was just gravy. Mozart was intrigued with the dynamic and expressive range of the piano. And yet, he was no fool. He only kept writing piano concertos because the money was good - just like his Flute and Harp Cto (C-major, K. 100). Mozart hated the flute. He just wrote for the instrument because the money was there.

As an aside, just ask any flute player what they think of Mozart and they may spit at you. Just ask any vocalist what they think of Beethoven and they may do the same. Beethoven did not really understand that the human voice is an organic instrument that occasionally needs rest. His writing really abuses the singers.

Beethoven can be labelled an instrumental composer. Though he hated the fortepiano for its klunky sound (the frames were still made out of wood), he still managed to write 32 sonatas for the instrument. As for the string quartets - Beethoven did more to further the evolution of the genre as Haydn did in inventing it. Mozart's string quartet models are moreso immitative of Haydn just as Mozart's early symphonies (before the age of 18) are immitative of C.P.E. Bach's symphonic works.

So when comparing Mozart and Beethoven and Haydn: the triumverate of the classical Viennese tradition; they stand shoulder-to-shoulder, IMO, rather than representing exponential development.

[Karenina]

49. Didja ever see a Viennese oboe

up close and personal? :crazy:

[ozymandius]

50. I cannot say 'yes'.

Is this a trick question?

[laconicsax]

56. True he ventured into new dimensions, but

Those new dimensions were still within the realm of Classicism. He expanded the realm of a specific genre. Beethoven, although technically a classical composer, ushered in an entirely new form of music.

It should be noted that the quantity of works isn't related to the quality of the composer. Walter Piston wrote several symphonies, none of which are that good--they sound like something written by a theory teacher. Howard Hanson wrote several symphonies as well, and only he knows why.

Mozart wrote 41, Haydn wrote 104. Beethoven and several others only wrote 9. Brahms and Schumann only wrote 4.

The reason for the decrease in musical output in the transition from Classical to Romantic is because, quite simply, classical (and baroque) works generally follow the same formula concerning their construction--it's why movements of same-key works are easily interchangeable--take Mozart's C Major piano sonatas for example.

Beethoven could have most likely cranked out many more symphonies had he simply followed the design. What he did instead, in gradually bringing about the romantic era of music, was to write each work as an individual piece.

I can tell you from experience, that it is a lot easier (and quicker) to write a short theme, give it a simple (Classical or Baroque) progression, and run with it than it is to write a short theme, and develop it without the simplicity of Classicism. It's that way with any form of composition. If you have a relatively standard method of developing a melody and harmony, then you can turn out works in very little time, whereas if that system doesn't exist, it's a lot more time-consuming (and personal).

[newyawker99]

57. Congrats laconicsax!! 300 posts

:toast:

[HEyHEY]

3. cause

He didn't write pachabell cannonball in d minor

[caledesi]

4. Emperor Concerto...my fav

This, to me, is the BEST of Beethoven.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. 8th Symphony all the way

Even the master himself highly regarded it.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

8. Me too! Emperor, that is...

Blink Blink Blink Blinik Blink Ba De DaaDad De Dummm Dum Dumm

I love that piece.

[Raenelle]

59. I'm not sure Piano Concerto No. 1 is the sophisticated choice,

but it is my very, very favorite piece of music of all time.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. How can Frank Lloyd Wright not be your favorite architect?

we agree here Cheswick!!!!

[Cheswick2.0]

9. Frank lloyd Wright is my favorite architect

I have a theory that great music like great art (and FLW's architecture is great art) appeal to you because something they are expressing makes sense to you emotionally.

For instance I love and appreciate Mozart, but he does not move me the way Beethoven does. I appreciate and listen to all kinds of classical music.....but none of it makes me cry the way Beethoven does.

Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings do the same. They look like where my home should be.

[NashVegas]

53. Honey, It's All in the Math

The Golden Mean - proportion - cuts across all disciplines.

[MikeH]

7. I Liked Karl Haas

I always liked Karl Haas' longtime running show Adventures in Good Music, for which the second movement of the Pathetique Sonata is the theme.

The stations here in San Diego which carried his program discontinued the classical format, so I haven't been able to hear his program for almost a year and a half. Very unfortunate.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. It is hard to hear good music

so many of the classical stations have resorted to the simply odd.

[Mr. McD]

10. He is second only to

JS Bach

[Cheswick2.0]

14. Bacccccggh

I have sung a lot of Bach. Which of his pieces do you like best?

[Mr. McD]

17. I favor his chamber music

The Brandenburg’s, the sonatas for violin and harpsichord., the violin concertos etc.

[Bushknew]

12. St Johns passion by Bach

conducted by Karl Ritcher, always gives me goose bumps, it truly is GodÕs music.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. I Prefer The Goldberg Variations

<>

I could just listen to that all day. My wife couldn't, though.

[Karenina]

41. Murray is a BEAUTIFUL player

I'll turn his pages anyday! Must admit to being hung up on Gould's version and to not having heard M's interpretation. I thank you for posting that pic.

[ozymandius]

45. 1955 Glenn Gould recording still golden.

I have heard so many piano interpretations of the Goldberg Variations. Murray Perahia comes in second place in my score book. Third place is Constantin Lifschitz.

The crowning achievement for this work is Glenn Gould's interpretations. His 1955 mono recording (when Gould was 23 years old) tore down walls for its clarity and technique. The 1981 Sony recording is also a giant. I will be pleasantly stunned when another pianist can pour as much genuine emotion into Bach's work as Glenn Gould could. Never plodding, Gould's love for Bach flows like the Amazon to the Atlantic. The joyousness soars; the sorrow rends my heart; the melodrama - a brilliant biting comedy.

[ulysses]

46. Matthew Passion, Berlin Philharmonic & von Karajan

:thumbsup:

[Quizzical]

13. Beethoven's probably third or fourth on my list.

I think Sibelius is probably at the top because of his Violin Concerto (one of the big seven). Mozart is always pretty brilliant, especially his Requiem, although some of his stuff is sort of cheesy and dopey. Chopin's awesome, and freepers don't even have to feel compelled to hate him, because he isn't French. Although some of Grieg's work is just nasty (think cymbals, all cymbals), the vast majority is really good and often folksy. Also Grieg was Norwegian. Bach is on my list too, of course. There are plenty of other good ones as well. Who're everyone's favorite performers? Violinists and pianists, I mean.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. I tend to be a little odd on performers

the greats are all great, you will never be disapointed. But if I really want to be moved I will go see some kids recital or a highschool orchestra concert. I am very excited to hear a talented kids pull a performance off.

There is a young man in my church, he is incredibly shy. One sunday they got him to play the piano and my jaw dropped. I was so glad to hear him play.

[laconicsax]

22. Note on Mozart Requiem

Mozart wrote less than half of it. He wrote the 1st movement (Intro&Kyrie) and the Dies Irae in entirety. He only finished the vocal parts for the Sequenz portion and died. The orchestral parts for the Sequenz and everything after the Sequenz weren't written by Mozart.

The Dover miniature score shows at the beginning of every movement what was written by whom, and most of it isn't Mozart.

Still a great work though.

[Quizzical]

24. Actually it's the Introitus that I like by far.

Although I wasn't aware of how much of it Mozart didn't write. It does show, though...

[DrFunkenstein]

33. The Quality Drops Quickly

But the beginning is chilling and exciting at the same time. The best Requiem out there. Anyone have a favorite version?

[stopbush]

51. Best Requiem?

For me, it's a toss-up between Durufle and Verdi with Berlioz and Brahms in a close tie for honorable mention.

The "Mozart" Requiem is fine - it proves that Suessmayer wasn't a bad composer.

[Karenina]

47. Brahms gets my "Requiem" prize...

Sounds like serious blues to me. There is no way to address the question of a "favorite" composer or interpreter. It's apples (avocados, tangerines, broccoli, pears, persimmons, wild strawberrys) and oranges.

"The Blues" is the first track on Marcus Miller's "Tales" CD ('95). Here's a snip from the intro:

Lester Young: "Blues? Evevraybody plays the blues - and have 'em too."
Miles Davis: "You know I play anything I feel like playing... "
Duke Ellington: As a result of a certain musician applied to a certain instrument, you get a definite tonal character..."

[wtmusic]

15. Beethoven: timeless

but if you want something in a more modern vein try Prokofiev Piano Sonatas, No. 7 or 8. Complex, breathtaking. Some of the most underrated music of the twentieth century.

( or Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, another modern masterpiece ).

[Cheswick2.0]

18. I have hear them I am sure

I will have to go back and pay attention to which they are. Thank you for the suggestion

[laconicsax]

23. After seeing your profile, I must ask:

Did you happen to see the LA Phil do that this past season?


Yay! 300 posts.

[newyawker99]

58. Congrats wtmusic!! 900 posts

:toast:

[Occulus]

20. Why doesn't anyone ever mention

band composers?

Orchestra is fine and good if you want to hear music in the common repertoire, but I almost never hear major orchestras promote 20th century, or better yet, living composers.

So many music lovers have a huge collection of orchestral music, but very little band music, outside of marches and the occasional Holst.

What of Holsinger? Ticheli? Margolis? Ives?

To name a few tunes from the above composers:

Holsinger: To Tame the Perilous Skies and In Spring, at the Time when Kings go off to War

Ticheli: Fortress

Margolis: Terpsichore, after Michael Praetorius

Ives: Omega Lambda Chi, The Alcotts

There are also Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night by Eliot del Borgo and When Jesus Wept (can't remember the name on that one) as well as all of Peter Schikele's P.D.Q. Bach music, Armenian Dances and Russian Christmas Music by Alfred Reed, and slews of other compositions.

But.... why do so few people mention band music when speaking of their classical collection? So many colors, left out of the palette.....

[JackSwift]

21. Because he's decomposing?

Sorry, force of habit.


I agree. But I'm a 9th kinda guy. 74 plus minutes (depending on conductor) of foreplay, the real thing and orgasm. And he was deaf when he wrote it.

[joeybee12]

44. He's a Decomposing Composer--Great Monty Python Song

Forget which album it's on.

[fabius]

25. Partial to Beethoven myself.

As far as GREAT you gotta go with Ludwig.

However, Mozart, Brahms, Debussy, are very fine too.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. start playing again now, it's not too late

[Cheswick2.0]

36. a pennsylvanian?

and is your name welsh?

I am thinking of taking viola lessons. I figure I can play the easier harmony parts in a little community orchestra if I ever get good enough. ....or maybe I will just try violen again.

[ibegurpard]

27. My favorite is Rachmaninoff

I feel the same you that you have described when I listen to his music. I, too, regret that I didn't have the appreciation for music that I do now when I had the opportunity as a child to learn to play an instrument ( I took piano lessons for a while).

[stopbush]

29. Because the more you become acquainted

with the breadth of classical music, the harder it becomes to define a "favorite." I have a friend who's allergic to Beethoven - he finds his music "too angry."

Much of the reknown of the "Pathetique" Sonata that you cite resides in the quality of its first & second movements - and the fact that it's a "name" sonata. Many writers on music have opined that the final movement of the Pathetique isn't at the same level as the first two movements (I agree with that). But certainly, the Pathetique isn't even in the top 5 of Beethoven piano sonatas. The Waldstein, Appassionata, Les Adieux and the final 6 or so piano sonatas surpass the Pathetique as total listening experiences. And we haven't even gotten to gems like the 4th Symphony, the late string quartets (Op. 132 is my fav) and the Missa solemnis!

Personally, I have a deep appreciation of Mozart, but I can't say that I "love" much of his music outside of a couple of operas (Entfuhrung, Zauberflote, Nozze di Figaro. I avoid Giovanni at every chance), the "Linz" and A Major Symphonies, the Sinfonia Concertante and a few other pieces spread across his ouevre. That doesn't mean that I don't listen to Mozart on a regular basis (I have to listen on a regular basis - I own the Complete Mozart Edition on Philips!).

Unless I missed it, no one here has commented on opera. That indicates to me that this discussion is taking place in the closed loop of "serious music=opera doesn't count" . How can one not mention Verdi, Handel and Wagner (to name but three) when discussing favorite composers? All were masters of the operatic genre, as was Mozart. Beethoven was basically a failure at opera, especially when Fidelio in all its incarnations is considered against the operas of other major composers, not to mention the rest of Beethoven's own output.

Then, there's Sibelius, Dvorak, Johann Strauss, Richard Strauss, Berlioz, Massenet, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Poulenc, Bach - and on and on the list (Liszt?) goes.

How can one possibly boil it down to ONE favorite composer?

[Cheswick2.0]

37. I sing Opera... I love Opera

I am a Verdi Mezzo/contralto. Funny isn't it that Beethoven is my favorite composer. And while I love many composers in Opera, Puccini who wrote nothing for my voice, wrote my favorite opera of all, Tosca. I have to admit my tastes are rather emotional when it comes to music.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. i agree it is almost impossible to have one favorite

but if you were going to be exiled for life to a deserted island and could only take the music of one composer, who would it be?

For me,it would be Beethoven

[stopbush]

40. Desert Island Composer?

If limited to one, I'd probably opt for Sibelius...or maybe Bruckner....or maybe Handel...or maybe Beethoven...or Dvorak...or...or

Rats! I...JUST...CAN'T...DO...IT!!!!!!

[Cheswick2.0]

42. lol

well then you better be good so "they" send you to an island by yourself. = )

[Karenina]

43. The 4 B's

Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Baby Face... I take the boxed set wit me.

[NashVegas]

54. Copland

Aaron (as opposed to Stewart).

[oneighty]

32. So much great music

so little time. You young people start listening now so as not to miss anything.

Good thread!

Ed

[patdem]

34. Give me strings over a piano any day

Mozart has been my favorite composer but I am a talk radio fan and do not listen to much music!

However a quartet will soothe my nerves, a piano only puts me on edge?

[indigo32]

35. because Mozart is

silly :P

[Cheswick2.0]

39. Mozart

too many notes..... just kidding :P

[NightTrain]

52. Easily! I don't listen to classical music

;-)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

55. It's never too late to take it up again...

I had a beginning violin student who was in her 80s. I had to enlarge her music for her, but she did quite well once she could see the print.