Brace yourselves for the Ron Silver grave-dancing wars.

[arcadian]

That is all.

[Tom Kitten]

1. Already up and running in GD

A person can set their clocks to these things...

[kiva]

3. Thankfully seems more muted than usual, though. n/t

[pecwae]

4. Pretty hypocritical

for folks who call themselves progressive to indulge in that kind of childishness, but as you say it's predictable.

[Orsino]

6. Really?

Childish it may be, but speaking ill of the dead doesn't seem to have much to do with progressivism.

edit: Or do you mean that some folks are glad that he suffered?

[jobycom]

9. It's timing, and it's about the living.

When someone dies, they don't much care what you say anymore, but to attack someone when their family, friends, and fans are grieving is diametrically opposed to anything liberal. Ruins my opinion of someone, actually. There are two DUers in particular I still can't look at the same after watching them dance on a couple of graves. You really see what's inside a person at a time like that, and the rest of the time their words and actions seem put on, once you've seen them that way. At least that's my experience.

The sin is against the survivors, not the deceased.

[Shell Beau]

12. Yep! That pretty much sums it up for me too.

[Orsino]

13. Ah. .

Well, anonymous postings on the web shouldn't affect the survivors much. I don't think that anyone who really knew Silver will be hunting for eulogies here--or be too surprised by the flamage they find on a so-called liberal board.

[jobycom]

14. Easy escape, but not a good one.

First, you don't know that for sure. Silver was a liberal long enough that he may have friends or family around here.

More importantly is that vague thing called karma, or what-goes-around-comes-around, or just what we in the South used to call "manners." When one of ours dies, someone posts what the Freepers are saying about it, and it angers people here. No doubt that happens on their boards. It's just wrong. You don't speak ill of the dead, out of respect for the living. You try to live better than that, whether it pays you back or not.

[Orsino]

15. You don't speak ill of the dead at all?

Or is there some length of time after which it might be okay, in your opinion? Would that length of time be different according to the offenses of the deceased?

[jobycom]

21. I give a time for the loss to become history, for the grief to ebb.

I suppose some universally hated folk might only get a couple of days of silence from me.

Note I'm not saying we should sing the praises of someone we despise, just that there is plenty of time to make our points other than the days around a person's death.

[Orsino]

25. I would say that a few days more or less...

...wouldn't make a difference in this situation. Silver's no Bush, but there's plenty to criticize him for, for those who want to.

[jobycom]

29. And there will be plenty next week, or next month, or next year.

And why the hell does it even matter? He was an actor, not a world leader torturing and maiming people. He's gone, people are grieving, and we do nothing but spread pain by complaining about him now. When someone is out of your life, you move forward, you don't double back to pile on their grave. You get nowhere but backwards that way, and backwards is the other party's motto. Remember, politics is like driving--you use R to go backwards and D to go forward.

And besides that, I'm a liberal because we are the ones who try to be better. Shameful when we aren't.

[GoneOffShore]

19. Manners yes - Karma, not so much.

I have yet to see the "what-goes-around-comes-around" phenom operate in any substantive way.

It's a way to make oneself feel good when shitheels get away with stuff.

[jobycom]

22. We grave dance on their heroes, they grave dance on ours. If we showed restraint

then they'd have less defensibility not doing so. That's karma. Karma doesn't equal revenge, it's just another way of stating the Golden Rule. You avoid dancing on the grave of someone else's hero, maybe one or two people won't dance on the grave of yours.

[GoneOffShore]

26. Nope - Sorry - They're going to do the coffin tap dance every time.

Doesn't matter whether we "stoop to their level" or not.

We've been doing the "Golden Rule" thing to our enemies for years and what has it gotten us? Glenn Beck, Karl Rove, Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich, Ann Coulter.

[jobycom]

27. It's gotten us Obama and Biden, Congress, and soon the Supreme Court.

Beck and the rest would have been here no matter what, but us playing nicer than them paid off when people wanted a change. That's the liberal way. The old "Screw them afore they screws you" is the other party's slogan, and if it ever became ours, I'd find a new party. Becoming them to win is the opposite of winning.

And that's not even what I'm talking about. I'm saying you don't make the world better by being an ass, you make it worse. Be decent, and you've made the world a little better, and in the long run someone else will be a little better because of it.

[GoneOffShore]

30. Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here.

I'm of the opinion that "What goes around, comes around" just doesn't happen.

No wheels, no "karmic forces", no "paybacks a bitch". Doesn't occur. I'm not saying that one can't be nice to others, but turning the other cheek gets you slapped. Again and again and again.

I'm decent enough and mannered enough, but I'm too freaking old to be nice to those who aren't nice to me. I haven't got time for it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

32. Re: Silver was a liberal

Serious question: Was he one of those who took a hard right turn (politically) after 9-11?

[jobycom]

33. Supposedly that's what did it.

In89 he founded the Creative Coalition to educate fellow entertainers on First Amendment issues and other public policy issues. He was a Democrat then. In 2000, he founded a pro-Israel group to oppose the Oslo Peace Accords, and that may have begun his turning. After 9-11, he said the Democrats weren't doing enough to oppose terrorism--which makes me think he had already turned on the Democrats, since of course Clinton and Gore were the ones screaming to heaven that we needed to stop Bin Laden, and Bush was the one pulling back efforts to stop Bin Laden--and he became an Independent who backed Bush.

So I don't know how liberal he was to start with, what all of his issues were, and when exactly he changed, but being a New Yorker, and pro-Israel (and I think but am not sure he was Jewish), apparently developments between 2000 and 9-11-01 made him drop the Dems.

[Aristus]

2. I heard he was beginning to drift back to the left in recent months.

I'm sorry he's dead. Nobody yet has mentioned his greatest performance: Enemies, A Love Story, based on the Isaac Bashevis Singer story. Silver was excellent, and almost unrecognizable without his trademark beard.

Worst performance (other than as a GOP fear-shill): Blue Steel, as an absurdly overblown psychotic murderer.

Let's hope he's remembered for the good performances, on and off screen, and that people forget the bad ones, on and off screen...

[PopSixSquish]

5. I Always Thought He was a Pretty Good Actor

and I loved his character on the West Wing. I didn't know that he had cancer and was sorry to hear about his death.

I simply hope that he's no longer in pain and is at peace.

[hamsterjill]

7. Actions separate from the Person

I believe it's possible to hate a person's actions without hating the person.

I'm sorry that this gentleman suffered and sorry that he has passed. He deserves that much for simply having lived on this planet.

I didn't agree with his right-leaning efforts.

Now, when I get to that point (i.e., can hate the action without hating the person) where Cheney and Bush are concerned, then I'll be a better person for it. I'm not there yet where those two are concerned.

[jobycom]

8. Nicely said. nt

[arcadian]

11. So, you will feel the same about Cheney when he dies?

Not saying that Silver was on a par with Cheney.

[hamsterjill]

16. At the moment, no.

I'm working on my feelings about Bush and Cheney.

I'm sure that I'd be much more successful at learning not to hate them, if they were both in shackles and chains, something I seriously doubt that I will ever witness. I would want even those two to have access to due process, too, because I would want them convicted fair and square. Perhaps they aren't deserving of that because of the way they conducted themselves during the last eight years, but I want real justice, not hollow justice.

My point is, however, that it's always a more positive thing if a person can reach a point of not harboring hate. Sometimes we're successful at it, sometimes we're not.

[Orrex]

10. I don't care about his politics

But I can never forgive him for Timecop.


Still, all condolences to his family and friends.

[NJmaverick]

17. Who is Ron Silver?

[Orrex]

18. He invented the food dehydrator

And starred opposite Jean-Claude van Damme in Time Cop.

[NJmaverick]

20. Still drawing a blank

Still food dehydration is an important discovery. Where would we be with out dried up food?

On a sadder note, it's always a shame to hear of someone dying on the young side.

[charlie and algernon]

24. he played Bruno Gianelli on the West Wing

[Danger Mouse]

23. I will gladly tell any grave dancers to fuck themselves sideways.

...which is why i'm going to avoid grave-dancing threads. :P

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. I got all excited over it...

and then realized I was thinking of Ron White.

[Fire1]

31. I like Ron White! Shame on you! lol!

[Lost in CT]

34. I'm ewaiting for the Natasha Richardson should have been wearing a helmet wars. nt