Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Any lawyers here? How bad is the lawyer job market?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » The DU Lounge Donate to DU
 
ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 06:34 PM
Original message
Any lawyers here? How bad is the lawyer job market?
I think about going to law school on and off, but ultimately from talking to lawyers, everyone I know is disgruntled and telling me to do anything but go to law school.

Basically, I've heard there is a glut of lawyers. Law schools are pumping out more lawyers than there are jobs so unless you go to a top 10 school or are in the top 10% at your lower school, you are shit out of luck for getting a lucrative job.

I've heard horror stories about law students who are $100k in debt and can't get a job and have to tend bar or work in retail after they graduate.

And if you do get that lucrative six figure job, you are a slave for years working 80 hour weeks. All law firms care about are billable hours.

Is all this accurate?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not a lawyer, just a paralegal
I suggest going to the boards on Findlaw.com and getting your eyes opened there. (The "Greedy Lawyer" boards)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fairly accurate
When I graduated in 83, I got a job not practicing making more than most starting lawyers do so I never bothered to take the bar..but my ex graduated from one of the top ten law schools in 96...passed the bar in 97 and was not in the top in her class..she was looking at starting salaries under 50K for 1800 billable hours which is double the hours of work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SW FL Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Unfortunately, your friends are correct.
I graduated from a top 10 law school 20 years ago and just paid off the last of my student loans last year. I am currently not working (by choice). I did the big law firm thing for several years. The money was good but the job sucked. The 80 hour work week is pretty standard for young laywers at the best firms. Most lawyers don't even make $100,000. The last average I saw was in the 75K range. Those that make more than that are either older, very lucky or working their butts off. The worst part is that the legal jobs that do the most good, pay the least. The only way to get the big buck is to represent the very wealthy and the large corporations. I may go back to work when my son is grown, but I will go into public interest work. I won't make much, but I'll feel a lot better about it. Good luck in your decision.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. wow
Edited on Fri Mar-19-04 07:17 PM by 56kid
glad I'm a legal proofreader, not a lawyer then!

I already knew I was glad, judging from what I see from the lawyers in the big law firm I work in. Especially the tension of the associates. The partners are all relaxed of course.
 Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lady President Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ask lawyers in your area
I live in Ohio and like every other field, the legal job market is horrible. We have 9 law schools in Ohio and there are not enough jobs for all of us. I lost a good job this summer and have been doing temp work since then.

I would imagine different areas of the country need lawyers more than here. You should talk to local lawyers or go to a legal message board and ask about the job market.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. My cousin went into International Law and is now overseas in
Belgium where he says he is better off. My sister in law, worked for Disney and is now unemployed. Enough said there. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pretty damn accurate!
Practicing law is a wonderful thing as long as you can remain true to yourself. If I was going to do it again, I would stay away from the big firms where you will surely loose your soul. I might go into public practice or start my own firm (which I ultimately did and loved it!) so you can call your own shots.

Don't give up on the thought but be realistic about it.:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. Graduated in 1992. Still looking for a job.
Jobs that I have had to pay the bills:

Midnight telephone operator.
Associate manager, trucking company.
Legal secretary.
Paralegal.

When I want to "feel like a lawyer", I do traffic tickets.

Guess Dan Quayle was right in 1991 when he told the ABA that there were (are) too many lawyers. (He was really trying to get a dig at "trial lawyers who ruin the fun of corporations that make dangerous products, provide dangerous work conditions for their employees, don't provide health insurance, fight labor from organizing, etc.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. My dad's an ethical lawyer
He lost his full time job almost six years ago and still can't get anything full time (he's 58), but makes end meet doing consulting work. My poor daughter's 12 and wants to go to law school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flaxbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. I graduated from UCLA law, got work in LA that I leveraged
into work in NYC, where there were many, many occasions that I did not go home for 3-4 days straight because of the workload. I was at a big firm, doing big deals, making $125K and MISERABLE! MISERABLE! THen I worked some in Atlanta, where the hours were a bit better but the work tedious, then DC where I did some work for the evil Clear Channel, then I just quit. I still have debt, but it's low b/c I went to a state school. This was mid-90s to early 2000's.

It would be next to impossible for me to get a job now simply b/c the market is well and truly saturated & I've been out for a while. If you do go to school, try to do it slowly (work your way through) or save enough money and go to a state school so that you don't come out of school horrendously in debt. Then do something you love, if you think you'd like public interest or something like that. Big firms can be truly soulless, mindless grinds. Believe me, the money is no consolation (it wasn't for me, at least). I'm struggling financially right now, but every time I think of going back into a law firm / legal environment I almost panic. Just not a pleasant work experience. And partners really don't have it easy so much anymore, at least not junior partners, because there is INTENSE pressure to "rainmake" / bring in business.

If you think you'd be interested in the academics of law, that's also an option but it's my understanding that the academic world can be even more bloodthirsty than legal practice.

If I could do it over again, I'd probably have majored in languages and foreign policy in undergrad and tried to teach, or consult. Now I have no idea what in the hell to do, b/c I'm so burned out and disgusted with office jobs I can barely bring myself to contemplate working for someone else in a straight-laced environment.

That said, most of my dearest friends are lawyers. Now, I don't have a lot of friends, and only a few of the lawyers I've ever met I've kept in contact with; perhaps it is their intelligence and pragmatism that I like so much. I attended a liberal school in a liberal area, so that might also have something to do with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. When the economy dove a couple of years ago
a lot of people fled to school, and a lot went to law school. I dated a girl who graduated law school in 2000. Even then it was tough (but Boston does have an insular legal community). She worked two crap jobs until she landed a good one, took over two years.

Go anyway. Being ringmastery, J.D. will help you in a lot of ways. You can do many things with a J.D...and if you don't mind being poor, there are literally thousands of things you can do for poor, needy, fucked-over people. If you don't mind making $16,000 a year, you'll have more work than you can handle.

Word to the wise: Don't go to a school that costs $29,000 a year. Your loans will own you, and you will have to look to the corporate legal job market to pay those bills, and THAT is where the work is sparse.

Street cred: Mother, father, uncle, grandfather, great-grandfather, many friends are/were lawyers. I know of which I speak. I, myself, was a litigation paralegal for several years before I rescued myself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
12. So go to law school, work your butt off and BE in the top 10%
If that's what it takes. Somebody's gotta be top of their class. Why not you? Work harder than everybody else. It's only three years.

You don't have to do the "big firm thing." I clerked for two big firms in law school and realized that was not my thing. I did small firm/boutique plaintiffs' work (class action) for 9 years. Then I joined a big firm in Mississippi (one of the two biggest in the state), and it doesn't feel like a big firm at all. Not stuffy. Not stifling. Not repressive. I have some rough weeks, but I very, very seldom work 80 hour weeks, and I'll bill about 2000 hours this year (billing is itself an art; you'll learn soon enough that EVERYTHING you do is billable! HA!). I even do defense work (mass tort) and manage to maintain my integrity. I hate lawyers, as a general rule, and don't care much for socializing with them. But I **do** love being a lawyer and I love what I do. I also realize that my firm is the exception rather than the rule.

Bottom line: If you really, really want it, DO IT. But make the commitment to do it RIGHT. I graduated third in my law school class without killing myself, but I did work hard to do it.

Yeah, the market sucks, but we will always need smart, dedicated, ethical attorneys. If you go to a third-tier school and graduate in the middle of the pack or lower, yes, it'll be tough to find something.

But you CAN be entrepreneurial about it. Once you get out and pass the bar, you have something no one can take away from you (as long as you do your CLE and pay your bar dues!). Hang out your shingle, hustle, do good work, and make your own way!

Bake
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm getting out after 20 years
California definitely has too many lawyers.

If you practice in an area of law where you do a lot of appearances, (court, arbitrations, depositions, office appointments, meetings) you spend hours a week in your car, especially on L.A. freeways. That can cause stress.

Depending on what type of law you practice, it can be very high stress. Not only is there stress from the judges, clients, and the other side, but one's own staff can bring about severe paranoia from their repeated screw ups behind one's back.

Again, depending on what type of law you practice, it can seem like an endless treadmill, with no sense of accomplishment or finality, but instead feeling year-after-year that one is always in the middle of the same damned case.

I have never had a problem finding work, and I believe there is work out there, but sometimes the partners in the firm that hired me have been rather unpleasant to work with. Billable hours and keeping the clients happy so that they keep sending cases are the two most important factors in firms, in my opinion.

I have known several attorneys who have become very wealthy (annual mid six figures and some much higher) by opening their own offices, building up the practices, and then hiring associates to do part of the work. These attorneys, however, all had failed or failing marriages, children who barely knew them, almost no vacation time, and health problems. The law is a jealous mistress, as they say. At one point I tried opening my own office but shut it down after a little more than 2 years; I couldn't afford the heavy advertising and, although I was able to slowly build my client base, it wasn't enough to keep up with the high and ever-increasing costs of running an office. Every time the client base significantly increases, the staff and the overhead increases. An attorney running his/her own office must also be a good businessman or woman and must also expect to spend an ever-increasing amount of time with business matters instead of practicing law.

My own personal feeling is that most of the law, at least the reality of daily practice that goes on in the average law office, is not a very creative environment in which to apply one's mind. The law can be very, very repetitive in its day-to-day practice. Highly detail-oriented work to the degree that preparation of a successful case requires can get old after 20 years. My advice to anyone who loves the subtleties and intricacies of the law would be to try to land a full-time teaching job at a law school. I think the law as discussed in school is quite beautiful and inspiring. Law Professors who spend their time teaching and writing papers on the law for law journals and perhaps taking on select cases for their intellectual amusement are deriving the greatest enjoyment, I feel. However, the down-and-dirty grind that goes on in most law offices, where a lot of game-playing and compromise occurs, is not the fulfillment of the dreams one has going into law school. At least not according to my experience.

In the end, however, I'm not blaming the reality of law practice or society for my discontent and I'm not suggesting that my experience will also be yours. I never truly "loved" the law, but loved the idea of being a lawyer. I think those are two very different things and a factor that one must contemplate when thinking about entering the field. The status of being an attorney, having the so-called "ticket" on the wall does confer a type of title of nobility or rank, which can be seductive to those seeking to enter the profession. Some males wish to become attorneys, frankly speaking, to be able to get more chicks, as there is a perception, true or false, that law and the power to maneuver within it is attractive to women. Some women, I think, want to become attorneys because it gives them a sense of power, title and equal footing in a hitherto male-dominated world. At least, the latter two may be subconscious factors in the choice of a career as a lawyer. I think that if you love the work to which you choose to dedicate your life, however, you will find success and fulfilment in doing it no matter what. There are many attorneys and too few jobs. But the good ones are always in high demand. I would suggest that you try working in a law office and getting to know lawyers and especially THE DAILY PRACTICE OF LAW and then decide. It's not necessarily what you see on Law and Order. If that's what you like, take up screenwriting instead. But if you decide that the law is for you, then by all means get into law school and dedicate your life and soul to it because I'm sure you will find monetary and spiritual reward if you truly love it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lindsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. A friend of mine graduated from a law school in Florida and
is exceptionally bright. She practiced law for several years and absolutely HATED it. (I think that the best part of the whole thing is school 'cause it's probably incredbily interesting to study). She is now becomming a personal trainer and has a HUGH student loan from the law school. Not to be a downer, but I know quite a few lawyers (as friends) and I don't know one who doesn't HATE it. And something I've discovered is if most people feel a certain way about something, there's probably a reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » The DU Lounge Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC