My 23 year old son and my ex-husband just went at it- physically

[cali]

I can't describe how sick I feel about it. And shaken up. What I am not, is shocked. I've been afraid this was coming.

Some background: My son is home visiting for a month from CO, where he lives. He's pretty much been splitting his time between my place and his dad's. His dad and I get along pretty well, and when his dad invited me up to stay at his place for a few days so we could all three spend some time together, I said yes, despite some misgivings. Anyway, my son's been pissed at his dad for years- with more than a little justification. As he says, his dad never puts him first and never has . When he first got home a couple of weeks ago, he found his dad had appropriated his $1,200 dollar tax return, claiming Tom owed him that money. But the real kicker is my ex has been having a hot and heavy affair with the wife of a guy my son is friends with- she's 25 years younger than my ex- and he's been spending money on her like crazy. The long and the short of it is that my son tried to talk to his father about this stuff and the thing escalated crazily. I heard all this banging and crashing and flew downstairs, grabbed my (6'3") kid and hustled him out of the house.

It's all just fucking horrible.

[Brickbat]

1. Well, hell.

I'm so sorry. It sounds like a g.d. nightmare. I wish I knew what to say.

[cali]

3. thanks. I feel nauseous about it.

My ex threatened to call the cops if Tom enters his house. Tom's threatening to tell his friend that his dad is screwing his wife.

It's the ugliest kind of soap opera and I've always been freaked out by this kind of crap.

[cbayer]

2. Been there. Horribly sickening feeling.

:hug:

[cali]

4. thanks. It is. sickening and confusing.

[Kali]

5. I think I would have helped your son kick your ex's ass.

Sounds like he needs it.

[cali]

7. I'm totally on my son's side in all this

and yeah, his dad deserves it, but I still HATE this. My ex is one of most monumentally selfish and self-deluded human beings I've ever met. And right now, his public persona- charming, intelligent, helpful, is colliding big time with his tormented fucked up inner self. He's completely losing it. He's burning bridges all around him and he's taking it out most of all on my kid.

[havocmom]

6. sad as it is, and ill as it makes you, it was probably healthy for your son

and a good learning experience for both him and your ex.

Dad's a jerk. It has been proven and acknowledged. Truth is out. In the long run, a win. And kid made an important crossing, although violence is a terrible way to do it. He no longer is the passive victim. He will grow and probably be ok.

Strength and calm to you, cali. So much ambivalence likely and the shock of it actually happening.

But now, the son is free to be open with his feelings. It's probably a very good thing in the long run.

Help him learn that it doesn't take violence to come to the same place in the future.

Good on you that you raised a boy into a man who recognizes injustice, and is moved to take action. He will learn better ways of taking action as he gets some more life under his belt.

Be well.

hm

[cali]

8. thanks for the wise words, havoc mom.

Tommy has put up with so much from his dad over the years and he's been so loyal and good to him even when his dad screwed him over. I just wish it hadn't manifested itself physically. Tom really does have a good grasp of things and a pretty clear picture of his dad, but of course, he still loves his dad even though he knows he's a jerk. And he feels badly too, because he knows this is going to have ramifications within his dad's side of the family.

[havocmom]

11. dear cali, the ambivilance can be a great stressor. And you aren't the only one dealing with it

Must be horrible for your son.

My ex was a real shit and took all from me and the money we had managed to squirrel away for our daughter. He sold us all out and went about telling everybody HE was the victim. Oh, younger woman, you betcha. My daughter might well have taken him limb from limb at a couple points, and I think small as she is, she could have done some real damage.

She changed her name to her step-dads, though she was a full grown, independent woman at the time. She calls him dad and means it. She has a father who is really a moral hero to her. It has been a help for the healing for her to find out there are good men out there.

No dealings with ex's side of family, but that was at HIS insistence. Thinkin he doesn't want anybody around who could set them all straight on what really went down. Coward, but his illustration served as a good teacher, so it did serve a purpose in the long run.

But loss of contact is a loss, just the same. Strength to the young man, and you.

hm

[Mel]

47. That was damn fine words of wisdom!

I'd sure want you in my corner as a friend!

[Gormy Cuss]

9. Ultimately it doesn't matter why they went at each other -- it's always distressing when adults

try to solve problems through physical violence. None of what you described warranted coming to blows but emotions got the better of them. What an ugly event for you and your family. :hug:

[Kali]

10. doesn't sound like the "dad" has a lick of "adult" in him

[Gormy Cuss]

13. Yeah, and it still doesn't make it feel right to see son and father go at each other.

It's an emotional mess even if Dad were the Great Santini.

[quakerboy]

12. a vew initial thoughts...

your son should call the cops ASAP. How does someone appropriate a tax return? did you son sign it over, or did the "dad" sign it for him... Which I'm Pretty sure is listed reasonably high on the piss the government off scale of things.

Why wouldn't your son tell the friend about his wife? Dad is clearly not worth a lick of "loyalty". And that's the kinda thing that goes beyond family loyalty in my book anyway.

Anyhow.. he can spend his own money however he wants. He, absent other info, doesn't legally owe anyone anything of what he earns himself. Morally, he's kinda fucked, but legally, if he wants to spend his own money on someone else's wife instead of his family, whatever. But when he starts spending others money, that's when it crosses a pretty clear line in my book. And Unless your son signed that money over to him, I think he ain't got a leg to stand on. And he sounds like a guy who could use a good run in with the proper authorities. And as little contact as legally allowed with the rest of you thereafter.

[noamnety]

30. The son may have lost his chance to get his money back.

If he assaulted his dad over it, he fucked himself over more than anything else. Yep, it's probably a felony that the dad stole the tax return, but if the son committed assault over it, it's cheaper for him to wave the tax return goodbye than to fight an assault charge if the dad files charges in retaliation. That's one of the lessons the son needs to learn from this. If he'd just let the justice system do its job instead of going vigilante he wouldn't be in that position.

[quakerboy]

34. Did he go vigilante?

If so, I missed it. I saw "there was a fight" with no mention of who started it, other than the fathers accusation. And from the story as told, I would consider him less than a reliable source.

So perhaps its time to preemptively file a report on the tax thing and the assault.

[noamnety]

35. I was reading between the lines

I could be wrong, but given how (rightfully) pissed at the ex the OP is, I would expect that if the dad was the one who assaulted the son and the son was only acting in self-defense, that would have been stated in the OP. Since that point was avoided, I'm guessing the son's at fault when it comes to the escalation into physical fighting.

I feel for the son and can understand why he would have been filled with rage over the whole situation. I'm just saying that if he committed a crime, he's not in the best position to be calling the police on his dad. It's not unlike the dispersants from BP - sometimes the "cure" makes things worse than they already were.

[quakerboy]

37. I took a different read

That she was not present when it started, and is frustrated with the whole situation.

You are correct, though. If he started it, it might be best to just walk away. I am baffled, as I expressed in another response, at her desire that they have a continued relationship.

[noamnety]

39. I hear ya on that.

We're all raised to want the fairy tale ending I think, where everyone gets along happily ever after. It's very hard to switch gears and realize that sometimes the best path to peace of mind and resolution is to cut our losses and just walk away. You used the word "freeing" below. That resonated with me.

[Bucky]

14. What kind of loser begrudges his 23 year old kid a $1200 check? It sounds like a felony to me.

Shit, my kid owes me untold thousands of dollars, when you add up the clothes, the insurance, the college tuition. But it's just a fraction of what I owe my folks. If she ever gets the money to pay me back, I hope she has the wisdom not to and just invests it in a reliable car or a nice Roth IRA, instead. That's the nature of parenting.

Regardless of money ethics, though, it's not really lawful to take someone else's money without their permission, even if he happens to have access to his son's bank account, which I assume is the MO he used to steal that money.

At this point, I'm thinking perfect transparency is the right approach. First call the mistress's husband and then call the cops. At the very least he has a right to press assault charges. It gets ugly for a while, but people who can't be civil need to be reminded sometimes that we still live in a civilization.

[baldguy]

16. +1

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. What an awful mess. Sounds like your son is twice the man your ex is. *hugs*

[seabeyond]

17. sorry cali. hoorible to experience. and as you say....

it just makes you sick. hug to your son.

your X carries his own demons

[miscsoc]

18. the dad is objectively a scumbag and deserves to have his teeth knocked out

it's your ex who is horrible. as for your son he is a saint to even be willing to TALK about these things with a father like that.

to say he doesn't put his son first is a hell of an understatement.

[cali]

19. thanks TONS everybody

I'm just wandering around kind of dazed and sick still. I really, really appreciate the support.

[seabeyond]

20. how is your son doing. what is he feeling. nt

[cali]

24. fortunately, two of his cousins are home visiting for a few days

he's really close with both of them- they're more like older sisters than cousins and they know the situation, so he's hanging with them out at their camp on the lake. He seems kind of philosophical about it right now. He seems to be in a place where he's willing to walk away from his dad and just not have anything to do with him at all. He's burned out on trying with his dad and he's just disgusted with him. I hope they'll be able to have some kind of relationship in the future, but it's going to take time for him.

[seabeyond]

25. i grew up with two aggressive brothers and aggressive father. it doesnt effect them NEARLY as much

as it effects us.

and we are feeling the sick adn the pain because of what we think they are feeling. they arent feeling what we think they are.

*sigh*

i am glad he has his cousins to hang out with. sounds like he is doing better at putting it in its place than you. you need something to do to take the sounds and picture out of your brain.

[quakerboy]

27. Can I ask why

you want them to have this relationship? It sounds like dad is not a terribly helpful human to have in ones life. If they did not have a genetic connection, would these be two people you would want to have a relationship?

This is colored by my own experiences, of course, but there is a time to cut those ties and walk away, or at least handle any interaction completely on your own set terms. My aunt does it with my cousin. Her dad is a druggie and an abuser(ie, knocked out the babys first teeth with a wrench, kicked aunt out with a 2 year old in the middle of an Alaska winter). They had a restraining order for many years, and the last time anyone saw him outside of supervised visitation was on an episode of cops a few years ago. And yet my aunt pushes her to maintain this supervised connection to him. Even though half the time he dosn't show, and when he does he tries to get information from her(supervision helps, but she is DD and prone to tell things the rest of us wouldn't). But we gotta maintain this connection because of genetics, doncha know.

Sometimes its better to move on. After living away on my own for a few years, my father and I were able to take on a civil relationship. But he is an honorable human, even if he is a bit warped in his understandings of how the world works. We just have an ability to irritate each other. This does not sound like that to me. This sounds more like my wife's dad, who even after sponging off her and ripping her off for years, still tries to scam her. And that's not the kind of relationship anyone should be pushed into by anyone else, no matter how well intentioned.

[Biker13]

46. cali, you have real class.

I mean that. Talk about the high road!

My respect for you just leaped untold amounts.

Biker's Old Lady

[Drunken Irishman]

21. Cali, I've been there with my dad.

We've had some big blows and my mom's had to step in the middle of us.

I'm so sorry for your troubles. It sucks.

Asshole fathers suck even worse. :(

[mzteris]

22. oh no...

:hug:

What a terrible thing to have to go through. How's your son holding up? You and he should go do something together. A "mommy/son" type of thing you used to do when he was younger. Pizza and movie. Bowling. Hiking. Whatever it was - you should go do that. Hell, I don't know what you SHOULD do, (besides go finish kicking the @ss's @ss!), just trying to think of something to make you and your son get past this and start healing.

[JohnnyLib2]

23. Dreadful.

Maybe your son will say, "enough," and hang with people he can respect.
Havocmom, above, said it very well. Sad, sad for now. :hug:

[Swede]

26. I hate when this stuff happens.

Sorry cali.

[Taitertots]

28. How does someone appropriate a check? Let alone a tax return check

I don't see how that could be anything but criminal.

[WillParkinson]

29. I'm sorry you're in the middle Cali...

I hope things work out for you and your family.

[Lindsey]

33. How coruld he take his own son's tax refund? I think that's a

felony. What a horrible situation :hug: All I can say it to try to be strong. And I'm so sorry.

[laylah]

31. OH Cali...

I am so sorry. How disconcerting and upsetting! :hug:

[applegrove]

32. Nothing is grocer than two men fighting. You did good. Hope it blows over.

[Iggo]

36. I took a swing at my dad once.

Once.

I feel for ya, though. I remember the look on Mom's face.

[quakerboy]

38. Hmm.

My dad took a swing at me once. I still remember the look on his face. He never did it again. That was a very freeing experience.

[Haole Girl]

40. Wow, cali

Hope it all calms down without further incident.

Wish I had some words of wisdom to share. Guess the only thing I can suggest is to trust your inner voice next time you have misgivings about something like that. Trust your instincts. Many times, especially recently, I've regretting not trusting my own.

:hug:

[MilesColtrane]

41. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

You did all that you could.

Keep them apart, and know that you can't control their feelings. (And that nothing you did, or didn't do, is to blame for the way things are now)

[alphafemale]

42. Wait..what? How was a 23 year old involved on another adults tax return at all.

Sorry. But that makes no sense.

[Lil Missy]

43. Pssst. You have that backwards. Dad stole the son's check.

[cali]

44. My ex is an accountant

he prepared my son's return.

[tigereye]

45. I am sorry, Cali

hope things improve for you and your son.

:hug:

[kimi]

48. Family disharmony sucks

Your son sounds like he has a good heart and knows the difference between right and wrong - you've raised him well, and that speaks to your qualities as a person, and a mom. Your ex - well, we can't control other adults or their issues. Best wishes to you and your son, I hope you both find peace in this matter. Hugs.

[raccoon]

49. Is your ex an active alcoholic/drug abuser, by any chance?

Sure sounds like one.