Intense Hatred Found Where It Was Least Expected

[Bertha Venation]

Mrs. V. and I are getting married on September 10. A couple of Saturdays ago we picked out our wedding rings. That day, somehow, some gibberish got posted on my Facebook status. Maybe it was my phone in my pocket? I dunno. A friend responded "???" So I said something like, "I don't know but it must be my phone's way of expressing its approval of the wedding bands we picked out today." This was a stupid mistake, my baptism in the "don't post anything about surprise birthday parties on Facebook" phenomenon.

Mrs. V's niece -- who has known since adulthood that Mrs. V. is gay, who has never said a word against her, who has always been a loving part of her life -- saw it and went batshit.

First, the Niece sent me a message on FB stating something like "This just makes me so mad, don't you think Aunt Mrs. V. would've wanted to tell her family in her own way?" I instantly saw what a big error I'd made, and I apologized. My apology didn't matter. I'm sure she read it, but I doubt that it even made a pockmark in her consciousness.

Mrs. V. had no intention of hiding our marriage from her family. She just didn't want to tell anyone over the phone. The last time she was home, marriage in DC wasn't quite a safe bet yet. As soon as it was, we set our date, and she would tell them on her next trip home, which happens to begin tomorrow.

Mrs. V. left the Niece a voice mail message that day. She also sent a text message. Naturally, she hoped to discuss it with her. The Niece did not call back.

A couple of days ago, Mrs. V. called a favorite cousin to day "I'm coming home; let's get together." After they'd talked a while, the Cousin brought it up. Seems the Niece had told her father (a druggie hatclown with ulterior motives), he told Mrs. V.'s mom (!!), mom told her sister, and sister told her daughter -- the Cousin. Word gets around. So now Mrs. V. knew that her mom knew. After the discussion with the Cousin, Mrs. V. left the Niece yet another message -- certain by now that she was avoiding her calls.

She called her nephew yesterday to see if he was aware of the drama. He was not. He congratulated us and said he wished he could be here for the wedding. He also said that the Niece has had her bitch shoes on for a month. That is funny; if only it were a good explanation for her behavior.

Yesterday, Mrs. V. got a text message from the Niece, and it was on. It all comes down to the fundamentalist bullshit of "man+woman." But the Niece is nasty and hateful about it. Example: she's using the bible against Mrs. V., and Mrs. V. points out that the Niece had sex before marriage (she "had to" get married), also supposedly verboten. Well, she didn't like being called a hypocrite so she replied "fuck you!!!" Told her aunt "fuck you!" I couldn't believe my eyes.

Here's the thing: Mrs. V. spent this girl's young life buying the children school clothes and other things they needed, things their father could not buy them. She had them to the DC area each summer. Mrs. V. and her partner at the time bought a huge house in part because they expected they might be taking custody of these children at some point and were fully prepared to do it. We paid the Niece's college tuition, for chrissakes!, and have bailed her out of countless financial jams.

Mrs. V. has loved this young woman unconditionally since before she was born. The Niece has made choices that Mrs. V. wasn't happy with but she never judged her. And now this child is slapping her in the face, judging her as if she didn't know her, as if she'd never cried in her arms, as if she'd never loved me or her other "aunt" (the woman Mrs. V. was with when the Niece and Nephew were children). The Niece thinks that our marriage makes all the difference, as if we haven't been as good as married already for ten years. It's all about having a penis and a vagina, and that is all that matters. That's all god cares about.

The Niece thinks that Mrs. V. has two sides to her all of a sudden. What, I wonder, has changed? Jesus christ.

I can't believe that this is coming from the Niece. I figured we'd meet some family resistance, but I never imagined it would be from her. I figured that she would be the most accepting.

I can't believe that such hatred has come from such a loving young woman. I can't believe the way in which Mrs. V.'s heart is being broken.

[Bunny]

1. That sucks, Bertha.

I'm so sorry for Mrs. V that her niece has turned on her like this. It's awful. Maybe with time things can get back to some sense of normal for everyone. :hug:



On the other hand, please allow me to congratulate you on your upcoming nuptials. Mazel tov! :toast:

[ceile]

2. Ugh.

Sorry to hear that. What a shock. Maybe it's time for a cut-off?

[geardaddy]

3. I'm sorry to hear that Bertha.

That sucks. But congrats on your upcoming nuptials!

[Iggo]

4. Congratulations!!!!

And on the niece thing, all I can say is "Wow".

[Rosie1223]

5. I hope this doesn't dampen your joyful day.

Hopefully she'll come around.

And Congratulations!!!

[jobycom]

6. First of all, congratulations! Second, sympathies. Third, give her some time.

I say this as someone who grew up in a fundamentalist world, even if I never fully bought into the worst of it. Her niece is confused, and Mrs. V pushed exactly the wrong button with the pregnancy reference. I'm betting Niece loves her aunt fiercely, yet all of her training and all of the stuff she's been told she believes tells her Aunt is a sinner. More, Niece has probably bought into the whole political thing against marriage equality.

So Niece is caught between two worlds. There's the one she's told herself she believed in, and there's the one that's sort of crept up on her to challenge the one she thinks she believes in. She's confused. Love and gratitude versus conditioning and group-think brainwashing. So she's getting angrier and more frustrated, not knowing how to handle it or which to give up, and she's angry (wrongly, but still angry) at Aunt for putting her in that situation.

So she yells at Aunt, who is her natural superior and mentor and all of that, hoping for something to fix her confusion. Aunt, very naturally but not maybe wisely, then throws Niece's own shortcomings back in her face. Niece didn't want that. Niece wanted to find a resolution that could save both worlds for her. Niece looks up to Aunt, and is grateful for all Aunt has done, and is grateful Aunt was there for her during her crisis, and then Aunt brings up the crisis and throws it in her face. She accuses her, condemns her. In Niece's mind, she turned on her, and that hurts like Hell.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm completely on yours and Mrs. V's side. Mrs. V had a right to be upset and angry, and I'm not criticizing her or siding with Niece in any way. Niece was wrong, Niece should have had no trouble siding with Mrs. V. I'm just explaining what I think may be behind her unexpected reaction. She's confused, and that makes her angry, and it's all made worse because it is someone who has done so much for her. When that person then lashes out--treats her as an equal instead of the usual relationship dynamic of Aunt/Niece--it hurts and confuses her more. Maybe even Niece believes that Aunt was the only one who really stuck for her, I don't know. Bringing it up could only hurt her.

If I were Mrs. V, I'd call niece (or leave a message) and reiterate how much she loves her, and how much she regrets losing her temper and attacking niece over past issues (see, that puts Niece on the defensive, because it's harder to attack someone who is being gracious when you aren't), and how much she wants her approval and her blessing. Then, reiterate gently, that that approval and blessing aren't necessary or required, just desired. If she has time, she can add that she knows Niece's religion disapproves of the marriage, but that she would love if Niece would not use it to disapprove of her. Then give Niece some time to work it out--don't make her make any committment right then, and if she does, let her know you don't hold her to it. Don't put her back against a wall or she'll make it a point of honor. Stuff like that. That's my suggestion. Act like the caring, wise Aunt again (even if it shouldn't be necessary).

That's just my thoughts. I hope you work it out. Now, if you'll excuse me, I just heard my own advice for a change and realize I have a niece who might need a similar speech, and I'm ashamed to admit that I never realized it before.

:hug:

[mike_c]

7. you really can't pick family....

That's not much comfort, I know. I haven't had any contact with most of my family in decades-- and that doesn't bother me in the least. Way less aggravation. I suppose that's my advice-- let it go, and let the family members who don't get it worry about it on their own. If they come around, they'll let you know. If they don't, well, do you really need that sort of grief and drama? I don't.

Best wishes to you both-- long life and happiness! :toast:

[pink-o]

8. That is just absolutely heartbreaking, Bertha!

I'm assuming this niece is pretty young, maybe in her early to mid 20s? I can see two possible scenarios here:

1) This girl has been influenced by someone she really is passionate about (either friend, group or lover) and with kids that young it's an all-or-nothing world, so she felt she had to repudiate anything that didn't fit in with her new perception. Scorched earth, IOW.

2) Her Auntie may have loved her unconditionally, but the girl may have always had qualms, being pulled in the opposite direction from intolerant people. So maybe she's going through a bad patch, and the Facebook incident is the catalyst that ripped her veneer of acceptance away. It's the harder scenario to deal with, but I've seen it time and time again: My friends who're not mainstream find out their loved ones are harboring resentments and judgments and it shocks and devastates them. Usually, it's one little incident like what you describe, and suddenly they're confronted with this hatred. Nothing hurts as bad as judgment from the ones you love--and whom you thought loved you without reservation.

Obviously, whatever the case is, this girl is going through issues. You guys happened to stand too close and some got on you. I'm so sorry, as I said I've seen it happen to others and I know how it rips you up inside. But remember, the issue belongs to the niece, not to you and soon-to-be Mrs. V. Maybe she'll come around, but for now you're best bet is to take care of yourselves and each other, and leave the door open to forgiveness later.

Good luck, and congrats on your upcoming nuptials!!

Anja, Alias Pink-O

[rurallib]

22. Pretty much nailed it I think

Congratulations to the Venations. Long and happy life together.

[gratuitous]

9. Mazel tov!

And now, two short lists:

1. Things you can't control: What other people think or do.

2. Things you can control: Your reaction to number 1.

The only suggestion I have for number 2 is to respond to niece with "We both want to thank you for your best wishes." And then raise the privacy panel on Facebook so that she doesn't see anything else that could cause her such obvious distress.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. sorry to hear that. congratulations on your upcoming wedding though

[Tobin S.]

11. It sounds like a mole hill has been turned into a mountain

Your neice behaved inappropriately, got called on it, and now she can't admit she was wrong and it turns into this big drama. I hope she comes around for her sake. It sounds like she'd be losing some wonderful people if she excluded you two from her life.

[Swede]

12. That's so sad.

Nothing worse than a judgmental hypocrite. Hopefully this all works out. Oh,and congratulations.

[Demoiselle]

13. I am so sorry, Bertha.

I am baffled by this kind of hatred. And, of course, horrified by it too. Mrs. V's niece sounds like a very unhappy person.
I wish you and Mrs. V a joyful wedding and all the best.

[Deep13]

14. "What, I wonder, has changed? Jesus christ."

You answered your own question there. I'm sorry that your niece is suffering from religious indoctrination. It's like a (self-inflicted) mental illness that has driven her to be an asshole. Unfortunately, there is no known treatment. She'll either outgrow it or she won't.

Anyway, congratulations on the marriage.

[Arugula Latte]

15. Ugh! This just makes me sick. I'm so sorry.

But never doubt the ability of religion to make people nasty and ignorant.


:hug:

[Arkansas Granny]

16. I'm so sorry to hear that, Bertha. I hope the niece comes to her senses soon.

Congratulations to you and Mrs. V.

[joeybee12]

17. That sucks...sometimes people suddenly get all fundie...

...not sure what sets it off, but I do know some people who were once rational who went over the deep end. Mrs. V should send Niece a note saying she'd like her to be happy for her, but if she can't be, then Mrs V will need to get on with her life.

[EOTE]

18. When the best reply one can come up with is "F**k you!!!", they've lost the argument.

It sounds like Mrs. V's niece has an awful lot of growing up to do.

I'm not a religious person, but it seems to me that those with logs in their eyes are the most likely to scream about the specks in others'.

[foxfeet]

19. Congratulations to you and to Mrs. V.!

My suggestion is for the two of you to proceed serenely with your wedding and your lives, avoiding any more exposure of Mrs. V. to Niece's venom. If/when Niece grows up, the burden is on her to make amends.

[MrScorpio]

20. First thing: CONGRATULATIONS!

Second, I hope that you work it out...Hopefully she'll eventually come around.

[nolabear]

21. I believe this is from Proverbs:

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have an ungrateful child."

You might try texting her that.

But you both sound much kinder than that. Here's to a long and happy marriage, and here's hoping the neice comes around before it's too late.

[Bertha Venation]

23. Thanks to you all for your congratulations and empathy

Sigh. Keep a good thought for Mrs. V., will you, please?

[madinmaryland]

24. Sad what can become of people. BTW, CONGRATULATIONS!!1!!

:party: :party: :party:

[Darth_Kitten]

25. People can be so vicious and ungrateful.

Don't let this pill destroy your happiness. :)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

26. Oh Bertha. I wonder waht is wrong with people.

I love that you and Mrs V love each other. I love that there is love in the world. I don't give a shit who loves each other as long as they do. Tell Mrs V that when the chips are down and she's still there for the niece regardless, that little brat might finally snap out of her stupidity. I'm sorry that she is behaving this way. But If I were Mrs V, I'd probably have told that little brat exactly what I thought and exactly what I did for her her whole life, but then, I'm a big fat C word most of the time when people treat me crappy, and my example should in no way be followed. Mrs. V has love and class, and I'm sure would have never thought about it.
Anyway, congratulations, you two. I hope you have a long happy marriage with tons of love and laughter. You are one of my favorite people here, Bertha, and I am so glad you posted. I am happy I had a chance to wish you well.
Duckie

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Don't let an adult brat ruin your big day

May you and Mrs. V. have a long and happy life together.

[Phentex]

28. That's terrible! You don't need her crap.

I know this is a big disappointment to Mrs. V, but sometimes the motives of relatives just cannot be changed or explained.

Hugs to you and Mrs. V.

[JitterbugPerfume]

29. Congratulations Bertha

Be happy:hug:

[RainDog]

30. Congrats to the Happy Couple!!

the niece is living in a cult called christian fundamentalism. sorry to hear that.

but hope your family can come to peace asap.

smooches!

[MrsMatt]

31. Congratulations and Best Wishes

to you and Mrs. V.

I'm very sorry about your niece. It's so difficult when someone you have counted on to support and celebrate your life becomes a stranger. And to be so ungrateful for all the love and support given her is unforgivable.

Funny isn't it that the niece chastised you for not "allowing Auntie Mrs. V. to tell her family in her own way" - and then proceeded to blab it around like water cooler gossip.

September is a lovely month for a wedding - MrMatt & I will celebrate our 23rd wedding anniversary in September.

[Flying Dream Blues]

32. Your story is beyond my comprehension;

I can't imagine what you and Mrs. V. must be feeling. I'm so sorry and hope her niece sees the light soon. All I can offer is a big
hug and am sending love and congratulations to you both.

:hug:

[hippywife]

33. I wonder how she would feel

if Mrs. V. explained to her how deeply she loves her and asks her to stand up with her at the wedding? I'm serious about this, not joking. It could be the thing that brings her around if she would tell her how much it would mean to you both and show her that, even with the new hate she's been spewing, she is still loved unconditionally.

:hug:

[MadMaddie]

34. Bertha I hope that you have a wonderful wedding

Sadly, some who judge know not the pain that they cause.

My suggestion even though it causes heartbreak Mrs. V should live her amazing life with you and if the niece comes around she comes around if not it's not worth the angst and further worry.

What has changed is that it sounds like the brainwashing has impacted the niece. Sometimes some people break out of it.......it takes time.

Congratulations!!

[csziggy]

35. Congratulations! Enjoy your special day

And forget (at least temporarily) the Niece. Personally, I would probably write her off completely, but maybe she will come around someday. I would certainly not let her ruin your wedding and your new life together (yes, I understand you've been together for a while, but making it official does somehow change things).
:hug:

[Mopar151]

36. The DSM needs a couple new diagnoses

One for fundamentalisim and the resulting delusions and denial. And another for thhose who seek to control other people by gossip and bullying ( I have a SIL....)

And yes, families blow goats sometimes. My sympathies to Mrs.V.

[xchrom]

37. congrats on your wedding! that's wonderful! nt

[Lurks Often]

38. Congratulations and Best Wishes!!!!

1. Congratulations and Best Wishes for a long and very happy marriage.

2. My sympathies on the family drama, don't let the little brat spoil things or make the two of you unhappy.

[kevinbgoode]

39. Well, a big congratulations to both of you!

And, I'm afraid I'm going to come off as unsympathetic to your niece, and likely awfully politically incorrect.

Frankly, it's a good thing it wasn't me dealing with a relative - I'm afraid I would have turned into an instant Bridezilla! I likely would have said an extremely firm statement like: "This is MY wedding. I do not subscribe to the teachings of your Church. I'm an American citizen with the First Amendment right to worship as I choose and make my decisions accordingly, not as you or your Church would like to dictate. As much as I would be thrilled to have you happy for our day and our lives, we cannot allow you to impose your chosen religious beliefs on our relationship and our lives. Those beliefs are ones you CHOSE for yourself, not for us or anyone else.
. . .And while we are on the subject, this is MY wedding. I would have hoped that your incessant calling around the entire family to blurt out the "news" would have been accompanied by happy, loving thoughts. But the religious beliefs you selected prevents you from expressing happiness or love toward others. We love you and your family and will always be here for you, but I must insist that you refrain from interfering in a decision that has nothing to do with you or your chosen beliefs. My unconditional love for you does not include foregoing my right to love, honor, and cherish Bertha in the manner we have always shared with each other. Whether you or your church like it or not, we will be married and honored by the religious and social beliefs WE have chosen."

I know, I know...that would have possibly caused a deeper conflict. But I guess I find it better to lay it all out on the table and get the drama over with, and place the responsibility for that drama squarely on the shoulders of the person who instigated it - your niece.

[Bertha Venation]

40. The words are different, but that's pretty much

exactly what she did say to the Niece. My baby doesn't play. She lays it out for all to see. She'll be damned if anyone is going to deny her her rights. She has waited too long - haven't we all? -- for equality to come, and we are taking this small measure, as is our right. Finally. May it come to us across the nation, and soon.

:hi: kevin

[WillParkinson]

41. Aw Mrs. & Soon-to-Be Mrs. V...

I'm so very sorry. That's just a raw deal no matter how you look at it. I'm very sorry for the trouble and heartache this causes. I hope that the niece sees the error of her way soon.

Paul & I send congrats to both of you along with much love and support!

[old mark]

42. BV...despite all the nonsense, I wish you both much happiness. Congratulations,

all the best.

mark

[cleveramerican]

43. looks like your still the adult(s)

and you niece is still the child.

with a bit of luck time will soften her hardness.

best wishes for you marriage.

my advice for a happy marriage is apologize to each other, and forgive each other without end.

[peekaloo]

44. Congratulations.

sounds like the niece not only has her bitch shoes on but an entire matching ensemble.

:hug: to both of you and hoping that the young woman takes a huge time out to re-evaluate.

:toast: