Contractors at my house. I need some DU love!

[hamsterjill]

I've had contractors working on the exterior of my house all week. And I'm stressed out!

The gentlemen have been nice enough, but we went through all of the work that was to be done prior to them bidding the work. No problem. Now, they look at me with a straight face and tell me "we didn't talk about that", when we certainly did.

I am assertive enough that I'm holding them to their bid - have the printed sheet in front of me when we discuss things.

But I find this intensely stressful. Does anyone feel this way when dealing with contractors, etc.? And other than being a complete, nasty bitch (I am a single female), how does one successfully handle a situation like this.

I've tried to remain calm, pleasant, yet assertive. Thus far, I've been successful, but I fear I will lose it with them at any minute. I know these guys are working hard, watching every penny, and that they are simply trying to feed their families. But shouldn't an agreement still be an agreement? And is it too much to ask that workers simply be expected to have a good work ethic and do what they say they will, without having to remind them, cajole them, or argue with them?

They are almost finished, but I need some DU love...

[sammytko]

1. I feel for you. Here is a big hug.

I thought about hiring a contractor to finish my kitchen, but changed my mind. I'm a female also, but I know my way around construction etc. Used to have to do all kinds of things like that when I was in the Air Force. I hate to pay someone to do something that I know I can do myself, or act as my own contractor.

I won't do major plumbing or electrical, but other than that - fair game.

My sister swears by her contractor, but I can see things that he didn't do or could have done better. I don't tell her, just let her keep thinking that way. She can't even stand to paint, so she gets everything done by someone else.

He's done 3 big jobs for her, and I swear each one, he slacks off a bit more.

He came to put in a bid for my kitchen and he said a couple of things that I knew were just not right.

Big flag was when he didn't even go up in the attic to check the vents for the new range hood or gas lines.

We used to install comm equipment in control towers and we had to go through every nook and cranny to make sure we had all the right material.

[hamsterjill]

2. It is a positive thing that you know about construction!

I know a little, but not much. I would like to learn more so that (next time) I have a better idea of what to watch for, etc.

I don't know how to go about learning, however. Maybe some volunteer work with Habitat for Humanities.

[LibertyLover]

31. My mom had a guy like that

I never liked him and thought his work was not worth all the money she paid him. The kicker for me came when she was dying. She was at home and suddenly became terrified that snakes would crawl into the house through the dryer vent (don't ask - her fear of snakes was legendary in the family). So she called him and asked him to come over and put a screen on it. He never came. I walked in to find her crying she was so afraid. I immediately called my husband, whom mother cordially detested, and he came right over and took care of the matter. He even when to the basement to "make sure no snakes were there". Since it was December, the chances were minimal, at best, but it gave my mom some peace of mind and she lived a few more months afterwards. And never bothered to call the contractor again.

[mnhtnbb]

3. You have some love from me! Have remodeled many houses

and had the best, the not so good and even less good contractors. Last contractor
wasn't supervising his supervisor--I was--and it drove me nuts! I had one contractor who was so good (not cheap, either) that when I moved from Missouri to Nebraska I paid for the contractor to come up and work on the new house--and put him up in town! It was worth every damn penny. I had no complaints. None.

If it's any consolation, now we are building a house to replace the one that burned down almost 3 years ago. I didn't want to do it--but it's impossible to sell a lot right now where we live--so we're taking advantage of loving our location to build our 'aging in place' home. The architect is the builder--and his brother and wife are in the company--and so far, so good. Some minor issues with their construction
supervisor, but the brother has been on the job supervising this week while steel beams were being set to support the house.

Yes, an agreement is an agreement. Stick to your guns and make them get it right.

:hug:

[hamsterjill]

6. Thanks for the love and good luck with your project!

If you are like me, I keep telling myself that it's going to be good when it's over!!!

I wish you the best!

[pitohui]

4. if they were nice people, they wouldn't be contractors

of course contractors cheat and lie, that's what they do, at least in my area, they all vote GOP as well so at least they're honest abt being cheaters & liars

i'm glad you have it all in writing because they ALWAYS, ALWAYS find a way to stick it to you and rip you off, i doubt it's just because you're a woman, altho that doesn't help, because they stick it to all the guys i know too

you just do the best you can and try to keep the rip-off to a minimum

also a problem w. contractors is that these are guys who, at the end of the day, went into being contractors because they are guys who can't hold jobs but still want/desire a lot of money, and they tend to have big problems in their backgrounds, apparently, if you expect them to show up at the day/time they say they will, you're being an unreasonable you-know-what, sigh, they can't keep a schedule ever

can you tell i hate contractors? gosh, everybody does...who isn't a contractor...they're like used car salesmen only worse because you don't HAVE to buy a used car but when a tree crushes your house, you can't really remove the tree and rebuild the house yourself

we do a lot of jobs ourselves that we could afford to pay someone to do, just because we don't like dealing with their shit, but when it's a major disaster, it's v. difficult to do the whole thing in a timely fashion...so what do you do?

[hamsterjill]

7. Contractors in my area DO have a reputation for being difficult!

Your points are right-on in that they know the likelihood of being hired back for additional work (even with a good outcome on the first project) is very slim.

Like you, I tackle a lot of the smaller projects myself because I'd rather just do them myself than have to hassle. Unfortunately, this particular project was too big for one person and needed specialized equipment.

They tell me that they will be back tomorrow and will finish the job. Color me skeptical that I see them on a Saturday, but at least they truly are near the end of things.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. You're painting with a rather broad brush. I'll admit that there are a lot

of unscrupulous contractors out there, but if you ask for and check references, it's possible to find someone who does a good job at a fair price. Ask friend and neighbors who they have used in the past and whether or not they were satisfied with the work.

By all means, make make your contractor stick to the written agreement, but do some homework before you sign a contract. Make sure he is licensed and insured and ask for references.

I work for a contractor and have met a lot of people in the construction business. We go out of our way to do a good job and make the customer happy. We have many return customers and most of our advertising is word of mouth.

[gardenista]

26. I'm a "nice" contractor!

But then I don't make very much money, either! ;—)

There are jerks in every field, and I agree that in certain parts of the country, the contractors are GOP tools who are just in it for themselves.

It's always a good idea to check the license, to call EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE, to actually visit their previous jobs and see the quality of their work, and to decide, in writing, everything up front, including the placement of the damn port-a-potty.

And remember that when you are engaged in a conflict with a contractor, they are the far more experienced negotiators, and if they have no integrity, manipulators, and that they have had that conversation, whatever it is, twenty or more times, and have honed a way to read you and stonewall or deflect if they don't want to make the change, do the work right, etc.

Finally you get what you pay for. Period. If you go with the low bidder, do not check their references, do not check their license, not only are you hurting yourself, you are encouraging the disreputable. Honest contractors lose jobs to these people all the time, and every contractor I respect (there are quite a few who have integrity, who work on the jobs we do, which are very high-end), is hurting right now because the unlicensed and disreputable are being rewarded by coming in low bid, and then making the money on the back end with endless change orders and upcharges.

I actually just decided to drop my membership in the trade association I've been involved with, because they talk a good game, but have become so used to their facile obfuscation of facts, they have successfully turned our organization into a right wing, vicious, sexist entity. The bad guys are winning.

[hamsterjill]

28. Thanks for the insight.

I can imagine that the good ones don't profit much when all is said and done.

In my case, I didn't go with the low bidder. In fact, I went with the higher of three bids because this guy came highly recommended. What I am actually running into is the "subcontractors" who are the ones physically doing the work. I probably should have explained that better in my original post, but didn't think to do that.

The general contractor (who I hired) is doing a good job of listening to me and agreeing to stay within the guidelines of our written agreement. But he seems to have a problem getting the subs to do what HE tells them. As an example, the agreement was that ALL trim would be replaced around windows, etc. I found a couple of places where old boards are still in place. The sub tells me that the boards are fine. And maybe they really are because they look okay. But... that was not the agreement - the agreement was that ALL would be replaced so we are starting out with all of the boards being the same type, same age, same thickness, etc. Anything less to me is simply sloppy.

The general has directed the sub to replace these boards, but the sub still has not done it. I've had two discussions with the sub about this, as well, and he simply has it in his mind that the boards do not need to be replaced. I am to have a final walk through with the general, and will discuss all of this at that time. I don't intend to stand over the sub today and see if he replaces the boards. But it will be easy to tell whether he does or does not, and if he doesn't, then the general contractor is going to need to get someone else out here to finish because I am not going to continue to argue ineffectively with the guy who won't replace the boards.

This is only one example of several issues that I'm having. But to me, how much can it possibly cost to replace a few more trim boards? The boards (themselves) are laying in my backyard. It makes me think the sub may want to use them on some other project, etc. I may be sexist myself, but I sense that this sub has a problem with a "female" telling him how to do his job. And I'm not trying to tell him how to do his job, but I believe he perceives that I am and therefore balks at doing it. And he needs to get over that because he can read the written agreement himself and see that it says "all trim boards will be replaced".

Suffice it to say, when the final payment is made to the general contractor, there WILL BE new boards on all of my windows or there will not be a final payment made until there are new boards.

[gardenista]

33. You're doing all the right things. Glad the general is at least working with you

The breakdown between the subs and general is pretty much universal, and I don't know all the reasons. The subs often don't get a lot of time to review the contract before they place their bids, I and I think some of it happens there... And I don't know the answers, except maybe to tell the general that you want to be scheduled with the same subs they worked with on the successful jobs where you've checked references, and that you're willing to entertain scheduling, budget, or contract adjustments to achieve that dream team.

There are *always* miscommunications somewhere, it is inevitable, given that we are all humans. Even the best contractors make mistakes, even the best communicating owners miscommunicate their expectations, or somehow miss the vocabulary or language to describe their needs. It happens on every job. The key is how it gets resolved. I'm glad to hear that your general is working with you and listening to you. I've been on jobs where the general will side with their lame subs, even when an error is glaring in everyone's face. They know they're moving on to another job, won't be back to yours, but their stable of subs has to be kept happy enough to work with them on the next job. The general/sub relationship is extremely complex, and bad subs often get in the back door. There may be financial arrangements between general and sub that are more arcane than the strangest wall street hedge fund, i.e., money is owed the sub from a previous job, and the sub is trying to make it up on your job.

We had a sub on a job cause thousands of dollars in damage when they flooded a basement by breaking an irrigation valve and just leaving it, pouring out water. Just walked off the job and went home... When all the finger pointing was over the next day, the responsible general took on the repairs and carpet replacement; thereby investing the bulk of his profit from the job in order to bail out the situation. He got the respect and loyalty of everyone, and probably came out ahead because he got stellar referrals from everyone. But I bet they'll never work on a job with that sub again, and that sub will never get work from anyone in that contractor's circle. It's the rare sub who is invested in the outcome like the general or client is. They want to do their piece and get the hell out. I've learned to go directly to the general when there is a problem with a sub's performance.

[pitohui]

36. there are "always" "miscommunications" because they profit from this

the general contractor blames the sub contractor, the sub contractor blames the general contractor, and unless you want to go to court over it (usually not worth it) you as the home owner end up getting fucked

it's advantageous to both the general and the sub contractors to pretend like they can't communicate, hence, all involved have endless "believable" reasons for not doing what they said, not showing up on the day they said (or even the week they said), and so on -- it's always the fault of this very convenient "miscommunication"

sorry, but the game is played this way for a reason

[pitohui]

35. no one goes w. the low bidder yet no one's job is ever finished

hamsterjill, your experience is the real genuine common experience that EVERYONE has w. contractors, whether they call around or not, whether they are licensed or not (who uses unlicensed contractors except for the very most desperate and the elderly losing their judgement?)

contractors just don't finish the job, even the ones who are well-regarded as decent (because they didn't COMPLETELY rape you) still always leave something undone

it just isn't a business that attracts folk who are honest and hard-working, eager to provide good value for a day's work, those folk would have been able to hold a job and wouldn't be contractors in the first place -- the contractor's soul is a larcenous one, he wants a VERY high-paying career without the work or the getting to the job on time, and even NICE contractors take short-cuts and nickel/dime you in little irritating ways

the best contractor i ever used, still, for the last part of the job, he transferred the team that did most of the work and used a team headed by his (obviously) mentally disadvantaged brother-in-law, so the job was never finished, at last we just gave up and signed the completion form to get the last of the insurance money released, and then my husband finished the job himself, otherwise it would NEVER be finished, i'd still be waiting for this moron to figure out how to do it right

he actually hung a door backward, just how do you even DO that???

a problem with the nice, well-regarded contractors is they accept too many jobs, so they never finish anything either and they can't supervise all their teams

sorry about painting with a broad brush but after half a century all you can do is decide that, hey, you know what? there's a pattern here!!!!

[Mopar151]

27. The best contractor I've used is a RW loony

But I knew that going in.. And we used to work together - I was his boss for a bit. He held his price, coped with our pets ( I think that may have helped, actually), and did a beautiful job. He is amazingly conscientious. - And he's 2nd generation in contracting, so he knows the laws and how stuff is supposed to work.
I hear you about the DIY side, too - I put in our new furnace because I did'nt want our (former)oil dealer's service guys anywhere near it.

[Kali]

34. husband is a masonry contractor

he hates the asshole homeowners who are always trying to get extra work out a job - and it happens a lot

two way street on the cheating and manipulation

[MajorChode]

5. Here is the way contractors typically work

They will tell you whatever you want to hear when they are bidding for the job, but when it comes down to actually doing the work they are very different people. They aren't really concerned with your satisfaction, because they know it's highly unlikely you will ever hire them again even if you are fully satisfied with their work. So they really have no vested interest in keeping you happy, such as they would have with a builder who may use them again and again.

It's good that you have a printed record of what was agreed. If something is not on there, your recourse is limited if push comes to shove. You definitely have to be assertive with contractors, which is unfortunate.

[hamsterjill]

8. That's right.

You have to chide them to do what they agreed to do, and then when you chide them, you become a bitch in their minds. When, if they would simply do what they'd agreed to do, in the first place, there would be no need.

[MajorChode]

9. That's why I never pay them in full up front

I will only agree to pay the up front costs for materials they need to purchase initially. If the job extends for a long period of time, I may agree to periodic payments as the work progresses. Once the work is complete, I give it a thorough inspection before they get the rest of their money. Any promise of a warranty that is not guaranteed in some way is worthless. Once most contractors get their money, you will never see them again.

[El Supremo]

11. I scared off four contractors this year.

They knew that they wouldn't get away with this kind of shit with me. I have a set of rules that I tell them about up front. I almost went to a lawyer to write a contract designed for me not the contractor.

I finally found a company that was great. They were all immigrant Mexicans. They have more incentive to please.

You have my sympathy. Really!

[MorningGlow]

12. Ohhhh been there done that

You got lots of DU love and support from me, for sure!

We had a lot of work done last summer and I interviewed a LOT of contractors on my own (my husband was miffed that I didn't want to wait four MORE years--or longer--for him to get around to doing all of it, so he hid and pouted). Got a lot of "oh sure yeah we can do that" and then never heard from them again. I ended up hiring two contractors--one to put wood clapboards on the back wall of the house and then paint the whole thing (the house is really tall--I wasn't going to do it) and build a set of exterior steps for the back door, and another to do all the interior work--finish a powder room and mudroom and put a wall of windows in the dining room. I lucked out--the interior guys ROCKED. The exterior guys...er, sucked. It got to the point where I had the interior guys finish off the exterior side wall where they did the windows because I couldn't bear to be around the other contractor for one more minute.

The lousy guy didn't stick to his estimate in the least. The good guy did--never asked for a penny more than he estimated. I heart the good guy and would have him and his team back in a millisecond to finish our kitchen. As soon as I scare up more money. The lousy guy...I never want to see again...but I do, because he gets a lot of work in this small village (how, I have no idea), and he's driving all over the place all the time.

Anyway, good luck to you. Deep breaths...it's almost over...you can do it... :loveya:

[hamsterjill]

19. I know what you're saying about not being able to bear being around one

I finding myself dreading it when I have to talk with this guy about something. But I won't let that keep me from insisting that he do what he said he would.

I will be glad when he's finished and gone, though, because I can tell that he tenses up everytime I ask him anything. It's like he takes it personally when I ask questions. Almost an attitude of "how dare she question me". But it's my hard earned dollars, and by george, I will question until I am satisfied with the outcome. It's just stressful when it has to be that way.

[MorningGlow]

25. Yes!

It's like the guy was incredulous when I asked him to do something a specific way (and I am NOT ultra picky!)--like, he built my back steps (regret on my part!) and he put really thin 1x6s as the top flat hand rail, and it started to curl almost immediately. I asked him nicely to replace them. O the torment! He told me to my FACE that I was difficult! And I just KNEW he was muttering "bitch" behind my back when I fritzed when he flattened my bleeding heart plants by tromping all over them. (He said, "I thought they were weeds.") A real winner, I swear.

You stick to your guns, HJ, and make sure he does things the way you want--you're the customer, and they're your hard-earned dollars paying for the job.

And never forget--you will always have the last word. I've already given my honest opinion (not embellished at all) about my difficult guy, and if anyone else asks, I will continue to be quite frank. They make their own beds when they act like that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

13. Get it ALL in writing, and stick to it.

Don't pay them until everything is done.
Please.

Lots of good advice in this thread.

Don't worry about turning to a beeyotch. If they don't like it, so what? They need to meet the terms of a contract, and that's not being a bitch, that's called SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE (yes I have a law degree).

[hamsterjill]

21. Nope - half up front; half when completed to my satisfaction

And yes, there is some good advice here!!! Thanks!

[tigereye]

14. yeah we are trying to find a plumbing contractor to redo the one bathroom

one guy came and never managed to send a quote...

another guy is coming next week. We'll see.



We've had some really nice guys do exterior work in the past -they were great, did everything they said they would. Alas, the guy who ran it closed down his business after a divorce. Sad, because he was really cool.

[Skittles]

15. you want I should kick some contractor ass, hamsterjill?

I won't make them wait the way they make us wait; no INDEED

[hamsterjill]

17. Could you, please, Skittles???!!!

LOL

Sometimes (with SOME people), I think that's the only language they understand! Too bad it has to be that way.

[hamsterjill]

18. Duplicate

Ooops.

[seabeyond]

16. we are just about done with the inside job. i hear ya.....

:hug:

[hamsterjill]

22. Hang in there!

I'll do the same!

[seabeyond]

30. we got the plumber bill. it is a messed up barter type contracting, hubby doing it all

so we dont have the info ahead, and i never do

to redo shower

800

jeeeezus.

but, the shower is bee u tee full. told hubby, like our trips across country, i am not even gonna pay attention to money out. it is well worth it. finally putting house together after years sittin, waitin for us to do and not getting done

will feel so good afterward

then we can enjoy

:toast:

[Curmudgeoness]

20. Here's a hug for you. I sympathize with you.

Also a single female, and I have had my share of contractor problems. I wish I knew how to do more, but if it is very much, I just can't do it---time and expertise-wise. Just be glad they are doing work of the outside of the house---just had inside work done this spring and I never ever ever want a contractor inside my house again. Sign me Miss Haversham, because that is what my house will look like if I have to have something done inside again. Hug hug hug.

[hamsterjill]

23. Thank you for the hugs!

I think you are on to something. I'm going to need some inside stuff done, too, at some point and I am seriously going to go to the free Home Depot Saturday workshops to see if there is a way I can do the majority of it myself. (I will buy products at Lowes, but Lowes doesn't offer the workshops in my area, at least not that I know of). I need the flooring replaced throughout the house. Hopefully, I can learn how to lay tile and do a little at a time.

I also want to replace the doors throughout the house. I don't know how to hang a door YET, but it can't be that hard, right? I'll gladly learn if it will keep me from having to go through the stress of having someone else do it!

[Curmudgeoness]

24. Good idea to go to workshops, although I would buy the products

at the store that is more helpful to you---Home Depot if they are the ones who give workshops.

And as to it "can't be that hard", you make me really laugh. I think the same thing when I see some of the morons who are doing the work now, but my experience with do-it-yourself experiments could be written into a comedy. Maybe one day I will tell some stories.

[hamsterjill]

29. I know! I've had a few projects go wrong, myself!

Like when I tried to replace the heating element in my dryer...nah...didn't have as much knowledge as I thought I did. Luckily, I didn't do anything harmful and hired someone who was able to put it all back together!!! LOL

But I'll try anything once!!!

[NV Whino]

32. I, too, am a single female

I manage several properties in the Napa Valley and work with contractors all the time. It took several years to winnow out the wheat from the chaff, but I now have a collection of good contractors all the way from small to large. And to reiterate previously posted advice:
1. get everything in writing even if you've worked with the guy before. Scope of work and a price.
2. I frequently work with them on a time and materials basis, but only if we have a "not to exceed" price quote. And only if I've worked with them previously.
3. Set a payment schedule – 1/2 up front for small jobs, payment at completion stages for larger jobs.
4. Make sure they are licensed and insured.
5. Get references – and call them.