Worst. Mood. Ever. And AHHH! Cub Scouts!

[rbnyc]

So I'm in a really angry, shitty, and callous mood. And we're off to a Cub Scout open house because my son is really excited about their activities and wants to join. They discriminate against homosexuals, atheists and agnostics. My husband already told him we could go to the open house. I'm pissed, and I'm going to ask them directly about their policies. I'm going to end up the bad guy here. I can already see it.

Crap. I have to go.

[trof]

1. "Sometimes you just have to back your ears and do it."

My great-aunt Lucia used to say that.
I kinda understand what she meant.
Sometimes you have to do something that goes against your grain, but you need to do it so you do.

I was a Cub, Boy, and Explorer Scout.
Of course there wasn't any controversy involved back then.
40s and 50s.

It was a lot of fun and it also taught me a lot about the outdoors.
I made some good friends, outside of my school.

I understand your feelings, but I'd advise trying to swallow your reservations and let the boy do it.

Just my 2 cents.
Good luck.

[rbnyc]

7. I really appreciate your post.

I just got back. I'm very conflicted. My son is very excited about the activities. I think so much of the program is great and would be really good for him. But I think their discrimination policy is really serious.

I asked about religious pluralism, told them that we are agnostic and my son needs to be in an environment where he can make up his own mind. They were very supportive.

My son asks a lot of questions about god and religion. I need him to be in an open environment.

My son is not asking questions about sexuality. I didn't ask them about their discrimination against homosexuals. I feel kind of guilty about that. I think of the epidemic of suicide among gay teens. I wanted to ask them if they felt their policies contributed to a climate where gay teens feel they have no choice but to kill themselves.

But I didn't. I asked what time the meetings are, how much the uniforms cost and how much popcorn you have to sell.

I feel like shit.

My son is very excited.

[Cid_B]

16. Fer fucks sake...

Support your son... scouts can be one of the greatest experiences of a young man/boy's childhood...

[rbnyc]

18. For fucks sake...

...what if my son is gay or bisexual or ever wonders if he's gay or bisexual and I've put him in an environment where he's told that's immoral and he thinks if he comes out he'll lose all his friends and he kills himself?

[cyberswede]

26. In my experience...

the topic of sexual orientation (and the BCA's discrimination) doesn't come up in meetings at all (he shouldn't ever be "told" anything about sexuality in the first place). In fact, we never discussed any of the philosophies of the organization - we just built bird houses & stuff. :)

I was a leader for a couple years, and I told the parents the kids should complete the religious material at home with their families in whatever way was comfortable for them, and I automatically checked it off as complete. That way, if any family didn't want to complete the religious stuff, they didn't.

Finally, you seem like a very open caring parent - I'm sure you will be able to communicate your values re: sexuality to your son and give him the confidence he needs, should the issue ever come up. :)

[rbnyc]

27. Thanks.

[elleng]

17. Sorry you feel like shit, rb; glad they were 'very supportive.'

[rbnyc]

35. Thanks. nt

[trof]

40. I was a scout a l-o-o-o-n-g time ago, but...

(In response to posts below) I don't remember any particular religious propaganda.
Although I've been an atheist for many years, I was a good(?) little Christian boy back then.
Maybe I just didn't notice it.

Of course there was absolutely no such thing as an avowed, 'out-of-the-closet' homosexual back then.
At least not in Birmingham, Alabama.
So that wasn't an issue.

As has been said, we made bird houses, soapbox racers, and more-or-less strived to 'do a good turn daily'.
:-)

I think we did some public service stuff, but for the life of me can't remember exactly what.

I'd say just go with it.
I don't think your boy will be harmed and it sounds like he's really pumped about this.
Sometimes we have to tamp down our personal principles and feelings to keep the peace in the family.

Best of luck.

[seabeyond]

2. i had one group that was scary that way. i had one group where they were welcoming to all

and it was all about the kid and good experience.

be openminded.

this is about your son

but be aware, too

best of luck

[rbnyc]

8. Thanks.

See above. We're giving it a shot. My son really wants to do this. I have a great relationship with him and we talk about everything. I am very conflicted, but I feel like I have to let him do this. Plus, my husband is excited about doing the activities with him. I think it will be good for both of them.

[MorningGlow]

3. Not all packs live down to their reputation

My son is in Cub Scouts. We live in a very VERY red area. There is no discrimination whatsoever, no indoctrination, no religion espoused. Go--you might be pleasantly surprised.

[rbnyc]

9. I asked them questions from my heart...

...and they were very understanding and open with me, but I only asked about the religious aspects. I didn't talk about the issue of discrimination against homosexuals.

We're going to give it a shot. My son wants this, and it seems mostly positive.

[MorningGlow]

11. Good for you

Don't worry about the sexuality thing; I highly doubt they'd address that with the little boys. If they do, then no, you don't want to be in that pack. But I honestly believe all the bad crap we've heard about Scouts has come from a very small minority.

Your son will love it--promise. :hi:

[rbnyc]

14. Thanks.

My son is not asking questions about sexuality right now. That's part of why I didn't go there. But he is exploring his spirituality and is very interested in different religions and different understandings of god, and whether there even is a god. They truly respected that I didn't want him to be in an environment where he would be told the "right" way to think about these issues.

[MorningGlow]

23. This is how our den handled the issue of spirituality

Last year, when my son was a Wolf, one of the achievements was called "What I Believe". I was sort of worried about it, but it turned out great. First the den leader covered the meaning of "belief"--not in a religious sense, but just the dictionary definition. Then she had each parent talk quietly with his/her son PRIVATELY about what they believe in their families. There was no discussion afterward as a group about who believed what. Achievement accomplished, nobody was uncomfortable (and believe me, I would have been the most uncomfortable, as a pagan).

I was very impressed and complimented her on how she handled it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. My kids have done Scouts, and hubby has been a leader. Never any problem in our group.

[rbnyc]

13. I think on the local level...

...this is not really going to be an issue. I just wish the national organization didn't have these horrible policies.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. My guess is they will let go of them someday.

[WinkyDink]

5. One of the best men I ever knew was a BS Troop leader: my uncle.

If I mentioned his name, someone would surely recognize it, he was THAT beloved---in a major city.

[rbnyc]

12. Thanks.

I am so conflicted. But I left it up to my son.

I also remember how proud I was when I helped a friend in high school with his Eagle Scout project.

I wish this otherwise great organization weren't tainted with these horrible policies.

[bigwillq]

15. As is my sister's boyfriend.

He's still a BS Troop leader. He's a wonderful man; a good liberal, too.

[quakerboy]

6. Why do you have to go?

Your husband can't do it?

[rbnyc]

10. I had to go...

...and see it for myself and ask questions and look at their literature and meet the leadership. This is my son and I have serious reservations about this group. If I didn't have reservations, my husband and son could have gone without me.

My husband and I both went.

[quakerboy]

20. fair enough

I am glad that it apparently didnt turn out to be as bad as you had feared.

[rbnyc]

21. Thanks. nt

[PassingFair]

19. Good for you, asking the questions up front. I'm glad I didn't have to make your decision...

I have 2 girls, and the Girl Scouts don't
kick kids out for their religious beliefs
or their sexual orientation.

That said, I let my kids attend "AWANA",
a youth group activity sponsored by a local
fundie church, because their friends went there.

They found the adults "creepy" and stopped going
on their own.

The only thing I really discouraged my girls from
was cheerleading in Jr. high, and even then, I let
my youngest try out when I saw how much she wanted it....

She was devastated when she wasn't picked.

I have written protest letters to the Boy Scouts on
behalf of a boy who was booted from the program.

Sounds like your kid will never be a hypocrite, so
I think you have to let HIM choose.

[rbnyc]

33. Thanks for understanding. nt

[JohnnyLib2]

22. One of the brightest kids I've worked with--

thrived in a Scout group until about age 12. Then HE became aware of the national policies, researched it some more, asked tough questions of his much-liked leaders and then dropped out. I know the mother, who was single at the time, agonized through that period.

In hindsight,we can all see that the boy was well-grounded and came up with the best solution for himself in an unhappy situation.

Keep the faith, and best wishes!

[rbnyc]

34. Thanks...

I think it will be an interesting journey. I have a lot of faith in my little guy, and we have a great relationship. We'll just keep talking about everything as we go along.

(I know someday he may not want to talk to me about everything, but I hope to-and work to-keep that part of our relationship as vibrant as possible.)

[PassingFair]

41. What a precious child!

He looks like a DaVinci painting!

Or very young Michael Cera:

[rbnyc]

42. He does!

Thanks.

[Arugula Latte]

24. We started our own group because we couldn't stand the Scouts' policies.

We had a group with parents who were atheists (like us), gay, or just liberal and not into the military crap the Scouts push. Even if a particular troop is groovy and open minded, if you join it you are still supporting the rightwing ideology and discrimination of the national group. So, good for you for speaking out.

[rbnyc]

25. Well...

...I spoke up to a certain extent, and then gave in to my son's excitement. I don't think I did such a great job.

[Tikki]

30. Hi....you are just the best Mom...

He will have a great time interacting with other kids and ,yes, adults.
Find a comfortable pattern of banter with your boy to recap
the club meeting discussions. Listen to hear if your guy repeats
any of the code words or ideas that
you know will be acting against your family's principals.

Let him fly with this. These are the small steps a *tough guy
takes to grow on.

Keep us in the know on how it goes.


Tikki

It's raining out here...I guess our Fall is
announcing it's arrival..
*affectionate term

[rbnyc]

31. YOU are just the best Tikki!

Thank you so much. He's so excited to get his uniform. The camping store 3 blocks from my house has a cub scout and boy scout section, and the meetings are also within blocks of my hose. We can walk there together. I don't even have to drive. It seems kind of meant to be.

[Beer Snob-50]

29. deep breath andddddddddddd relaxxxxxxxxxxx

i was a cub scout leader for a number of years and i really believe that this is a great activity for kids. most leaders have no desire to discriminate and they don't. it is basically the asshats at the national level who support it.

[rbnyc]

32. The people at the open house...

...were great, really.

Damn those asshats at the national level.

[Beer Snob-50]

51. agreed!

we had a couple of openly homosexual boys in our troop and a couple of atheists.....

the only problem we ever had was when the troop liason to the church who held our charter (but had nothing to do with us) closed us down due to the fact we never took the boys to church at campouts. another church however took over our charter and was great to us.

[KamaAina]

36. Look at it this way.

As a Cub Scout mom, you now have standing to ream national out over the homophobia and religious bigotry.

[rbnyc]

37. Yeah...

...I was thinking about that today.

[demmiblue]

38. Psst... volunteer to be a den and/or pack leader.

I am sure many atheists/agnostics have done so in the past. ;-)

The homophobic nature of the BSA is another thing. :puke:

[rbnyc]

44. Not a bad idea...

...although I'm stretched pretty this as it is. Maybe my husband should volunteer.

[OriginalGeek]

45. As I was reading the thread I began wondering about the national leaders

and how they got to be there. Did they start out as local leaders? Just as scouts?

Infiltrate from the bottom up. Eventually, with good people like you asking the right questions and caring so much and so brilliantly for your son and his future, those national ass-hats will be gone and the new era of inclusion and understanding can begin.

Don't even worry about the step you didn't take yet - you can't beat yourself up for that. You already did more than a lot of folks would and there will be ample opportunity for you to take on the next step when you are ready.

From where I sit, you and your husband are doing a spectacular job and that is one lucky kid.

[rbnyc]

46. Thanks so much!

We are lucky parents.

[JohnnyLib2]

39. Great photo!

#34

[rbnyc]

43. Thanks.

[REP]

47. A million years ago, my brother was a Cub Scout (etc)

You'll meet fewer anti-religion people than my mother. She was a Den Mother. One of the other leaders - forget what his title was - was an Eagle Scout and a super nice guy. I went because my mom was a Den Mother and it was way more fun than Girl Scouts. Anyway, I remember a lot of knot-tying, Native American skills and dancing, building shit, etc. There was no god. No one was allowed to use "gay" or "faggot" as insults (this was the 70s, but we lived a city with a big GBLT population and my mom has always been pro-equal-rights for everyone) but otherwise, sexuality didn't come up.

I have the feeling it still depends upon who is running the 'den' - do they have an agenda, or do they want to teach kids how to tie knots, have good social skills and go camping? I agree with you in principle (and so glad I just have cats and this never comes up) but this might possibly be an okay thing for your kid.

You could always be a den mother and make sure... (don't hit me).

[rbnyc]

50. Hi Rep!

:hi:

:loveya:

My husband can be the den mother!

[MorningGlow]

52. He'll be gratified to know

that we now use the gender-neutral term "den leader". ;)

[REP]

55. Another thing

The Eagle Scout leader guy was Native American. He was not Christian (he became a family friend - personal religious beliefs were never discussed at CS meetings). He followed his People's spiritual ways in a kind of casual manner - like the way most people observe Christmas. He obviously made Eagle Scout. So, like another poster mentioned, the questioning for Eagle doesn't seem to be very specific!

:loveya: back atcha

[pdx_prog]

48. I am an Eagle Scout

and my son is currently working on his Eagle project. I chair Eagle boards for my district, serve as a Unit Commissioner, and serve on my district's committee. We have over 35,000 youth in the Portland council and over 15,000 adult volunteers. All the BSA requires in order for a boy to earn Eagle is to have a belief in a higher being. I had a boy tell me once that he believed strictly in science and that he didn't believe in "God". He also said that when he sees some of the beautiful scenery while out hiking or camping he knows that there is a higher being of some sort. We passed him and recommended that he receieve his Eagle rank. As for homosexuals, there has been terrible sexual abuse in the past. Sexual predators ran amuck in the scouts at one time and abused countless kids. It is not descrimination, it is protecting our youth.

[rbnyc]

49. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I really appreciate your post. There are so many things I love about the Scouts. We signed up our son. If I'm willing to put my son there, that really is a deep endorsement.

I believe you when you say the intention of discrimination against homosexuals is to protect children.

For many years, I worked as Director of Development for a youth service organization - which ran camps, after school and a variety of youth programs. I'm also a surviver of childhood sexual abuse. So I see this issue from the perspective of a mother, a surviver, and senior staff of a youth service organization charged to protect our community's children.

I believe in my heart that discriminating against homosexuals does not protect children. Homosexuality and pedophilia are not related.

[REP]

53. Afuckingmen

Hetero/homo/bisexuality are all normal, healthy expressions of human sexuality.

Pedophilia is none of the above.

[demmiblue]

54. That is a very charitable response.

Kudos to you! :toast:

[rbnyc]

58. Thanks.

I hope my message came across.

[darkstar3]

56. Question:

"As for homosexuals, there has been terrible sexual abuse in the past. Sexual predators ran amuck in the scouts at one time and abused countless kids. It is not descrimination, it is protecting our youth. "

Are you implying that homosexuals are more likely to molest children, and therefore it is right to prevent them from being members in order to protect our youth?

[darkstar3]

57. The Scouts is an organization that is far more influenced by Pack/Troop leadership

than by National Council policy. It sounds from your other posts here that this group is far more accepting than others I've seen. I wouldn't worry about your son, but don't forget that you have the ability to get involved: There are Den Mothers, and they are a integral part of the group.

[rbnyc]

59. I think my husband should volunteer.

I'm stretched so this at work, and he sets his own hours.

:hi: