Dean's Candidacy Is Done, Over, Finished, Cooked

[Yavin4]

Look, I support Dean, but his last statement on Bin Laden destroys his candidacy. I know that he's correct, but it will not be played that way. He just gave the corporate media and the right wing a huge weapon that they'll use to sink his campaign. I can hear it now, "Dean is soft on Bin Laden". It's over for Dean. Done. Finished. This is far worse than Gennifer Flowers or the draft flap that Clinton went through. There's no coming back from this.

Dean's problem is that he's too honest, and he's too smart. Yes, it's a disadvantage in American politics to be too smart. You have to learn to control your intellect. You have to think about what you're going to say before you say it. You have to monitor every word that comes out of your mouth. That's why Bush never has press conferences.

Dean is dead-on right about Bin Laden. Even though he admitted that he was behind the 9/11 attacks, you cannot take his confession on face value. He should be tried in order to learn where he got the support to pull off this attack. Hell, we even tried Nazis after WWII. The problem is that it's hard to make a reasoned, well-thought out argument with a news media that has the attention span of a gnat, and a media that will do everything in its power to see that Bush wins in 2004.

I'm sorry folks, but Dean's candidacy is over.

[Rose Siding]

1. This?

Statement by Governor Dean on Osama bin Laden
BURLINGTON -- Governor Dean issued the following statement today:

"I share the outrage of all Americans. Osama bin Laden has admitted that he is responsible for killing 3,000 Americans as well as scores of men, women and children around the world. This is the exactly the kind of case that the death penalty is meant for.

"When we capture Osama bin Laden, he will be brought to justice and treated in the same manner that President Bush is recommending for Saddam Hussein."

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002843.html

I'm afraid I don't see your reasoning.

[jamesarg]

30. Bush fears race against Lieberman the most.

I found this article very interesting.

Aussie paper says Bush leery of Joe as foe
(December 23, 2003)
New Haven Register


WASHINGTON -- Who strikes fear in the heart of our commander-in-chief?

According to the Australian, a daily newspaper Down Under, it's U.S. Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, D-Conn.

Editor and columnist Greg Sheridan reported as much in the newspaper's Dec. 18 edition:

"When U.S. President George W. Bush visited Canberra in October, he told his friend (Australian Prime Minister) John Howard that the Democratic candidate who, if he won the primaries, would be his most formidable opponent in the 2004 presidential election was Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman," Sheridan wrote.

In the piece, Sheridan notes the apparent blow the capture of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein dealt to former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean's antiwar campaign.

"One thing you can say about Bush is that he is expert at winning elections and his assessment of Lieberman -- Al Gore's running mate in 2000 and the most hawkish of the Democrats -- is a fascinating insight into the role he thinks national security will play in November's election," Sheridan wrote.

Lieberman campaign spokesman Adam Kovacevich called Sheridan's assessment "very interesting."

"This is the same argument that Sen. Lieberman has been making, that he would be the toughest opponent for President Bush because he's both strong on defense and strong on the economy as well," Kovacevich said.

"George Bush has been a bad president, but we have no problem whatsoever with his political prognostication," Kovacevich said.

Kevin Madden, a spokesman for Bush's re-election campaign, said that he "can't comment on any private conversations that the president had with Mr. Howard."

Heather Layman, a spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee, declined to speak specifically about Lieberman and Dean.

"Each of the Democratic candidates has strengths and weaknesses. Regardless of who the nominee is we expect a close election, and the party will rally around whoever the nominee is," Layman said.

Layman called Kovacevich's critical aside about Bush "pessimism and attack -- just another example of what all the (Democratic) candidates are doing.

Dean campaign spokesman Eric Schmeltzer accused Lieberman of being a conservative in Democrats' clothing.

"The fact is, the only way to beat George Bush is to give voters a clear choice, not try to be 'Bush-lite,' " Schmeltzer said.

"One thing Howard Dean and Joe Lieberman agree on is that George W. Bush is hardly an expert at winning elections, considering Al Gore got more votes than him in 2000," Schmeltzer said.

Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press," House Majority Leader U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said that the leadership of the Republican party "would love to run against Howard Dean" in the November 2004 presidential election.

"He is so far out there on the fringe," DeLay said.

Recent polls of Democratic voters show Lieberman tied with retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark in second place nationally behind Dean.

[TrogL]

32. Please trim this down

three paragraphs then provide a link

[polpilot]

34. WHO IS THE CANDIDATE THAT THE DEMO CONTENDERS SHOULD

HAVE FEARED THE MOST??

Answer this and you have a quick answer to the candidate who can/will trounce Bush.

[TiredTexan]

2. Please give us a link

to the statement you are referring to. I haven't a clue either.

[Yavin4]

4. Here's The Story

Link: http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-dean-bin-laden,0,5923919.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[floridaguy]

24. Welcome to the Clark Campaign

For those of you waking up every day wondering what fire will have to be put out, consider making the move to a less nervous campaign.

As a Clark supporter, I wake up to see how much ground we've gained and where. If you haven't heard, it's likely that Clark will have more contributions than any Democrat this quarter.

[OrAnarch]

3. Ive seen this topic posted repeatedly in the past...

Any human being who can think agrees with Dean's statement. Do we need a candidate who will pander to the fascist, right-wing bias in Bush's America to win, and leave us within that political environment? Do we need a politician who will reach out to middle America and teach them, prying them left from the right-wing grip that twists their thoughts. I am sorry, but if any candidate wants to ignore this issue, or dance around, as to avoid teaching Americans what America used to be about, then they are a non-option for me. That is not the America I want to live in. Dean is demostrating that he is once again willing to express his views, even if they are different than the current fascist mindset, and instill back into these people what the country was based on.


Yes, Osama should get due process before being sentenced to death, regardless of how you feel about him. For the simple reason Bush told us he is responsible, makes such a statement very questionable in itself. :) When his mouth moves, Bush is lying.

[unfrigginreal]

5. Yeah, what a wuss, only calling for this to be a death penalty case

Everybody knows he should be calling for infinite trips to a torture chamber for OBL.

Dean: Death To Osama

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/26/politics/main590311.shtml

[Dagaz]

7. I'm glad he flip flopped on this

I don't see how anyone taking a neutral position on bin Laden could win in a General election.

[bowens43]

11. He didn't flip flop on this.

What makes you think that he did?

[Dagaz]

14. The two statements are opposite

At first Dean said he couldn't judge but in the second he said he thought that the death penalty should apply.

[w4rma]

37. No. No flip-flop. He restated the same thing in more precise terms. (n/t)

[Jim Sagle]

6. Breathe. Have a beer. Dean's fine. Really.

:beer:

[drb]

8. Well, Your Boy George wants to kill Osama quick...

...if they ever accidently catch him, because Osama will begin to squeal like a piggy about LIHOP, and MIHOP, and his dad, and George's dad, and the BFEE.

All the more reason to do like Dean says, put him on trial, and give him a chance to spill his guts.

[w13rd0]

9. bingo...

...furthermore, while condemning Ossama for being an extremist asshole and murderous thug, we can still say WE HAVE SEEN NO VALID INVESTIGATION!!! Our country! OUR CONSTITUTION! He gets the issues on the table that no one else is managing, especially with the whore press doing legwork for Rove, attempting to bury anything that smells unsavory for the boychimpking.

[cryofan]

10. puhleeze--CorpGovMedia LOVES Dean....

Why?

--He's rich, just like them...

--His reign in Vermont shows he likes to cut taxes, especially taxes on rich people, like the talking heads on CNN, et al., and their rich bosses and advertisers.

--He hates the Liberal Left that of course wants to raise taxes on the rich....

[Hawkeye-X]

13. Please, oh please..

provide proof on your statement.

Oh, you don't have it? Let me back it up for you...



He's rich, just like them...

Howard Dean, of course, is the son of a wealthy family. His father worked on Wall Street, and his ancestors have been in this country since the 17th century. But he overcame all that. He became a doctor (no easy feat). He had a life. He served people. His political career began with an accident – the death of Governor Richard Snelling. Until that day, Howard Dean was a part-timer, a volunteer. He may have been to the manor born, but he has not lived as to the manor bred. Howard Dean’s story is inspiring, as inspiring as that of Gen. Wesley Clark, and far more inspiring (by the way) than that of George W. Bush, who has spent his entire life taking, from his family, from his friends, and giving only to those who sponsored him.

He is very tight with money, and he has not splurged on himself for years, preferring to keep his $125 JCPenney suit that he has had for years.

More about his frugalism:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/n_8376/

His reign in Vermont shows he likes to cut taxes, especially taxes on rich people, like the talking heads on CNN, et al., and their rich bosses and advertisers.

Wrong. Read this link.

http://www.deandefense.org/archives/000611.html


He hates the Liberal Left that of course wants to raise taxes on the rich....

Wrong. He doesn't hate the Liberal Left. I'll give you a homework assignment - please provide proof (other than FauxNews or any RW sources) that Dean hates the Liberal Left.

[imax2268]

20. Don't you just love

the drivel that's repeated daily...

Dean is not finished, Dean IS ELECTABLE, and Dean will win...

just my opinion...

[Zomby Woof]

12. Extols Jesus one day

...and the death penalty in the next breath. Sounds like he is angling for those middle American votes. Not sure he is "too honest" though. I have refuted that point enough over in GD2004.

Here's hoping he does flounder, and some of his supporters wake the fuck up.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. I'm not sure he's very smart either

most politicians engage brain and mouth simultaneously. That seems to be a major difficulty for the doc.

[shance]

21. Oh I agree. He hasnt achieved very much - just being a M.D. and a 5 term

governor.

Excuse me for a moment......but

Who are the self righteous armchair politicians who think they know so much more than our Democratic candidates who have actually taken on a huge commitment in running for president?

So why dont those of you run for president if you feel you are superiorily gifted to Governor Deans so-called mediocrity or anyone elses candidacy for that matter? Lets see if you can achieve what he or any of them have achieved.

I would actually love to see more exceptional, caring individuals run because we need more great candidates like Dean and Clark running for elected office, and less backseat naysayers that do nothing but suffocate hope and inspiration.

DUers and most Dems could benefit (and help their candidates**) by actually TRYING to comprehend what these Democratic candidates are up against.

They are up against a media that is being paid to damage the Democrat frontrunner on a daily basis.

At this point I would add because of the dishonesty, division and sniping, it almost is better to say something POSITIVE or NOTHING AT ALL at this point.

Repetition strengthens and confirms and that can go in a negative direction or a positive one. It is simply up to us.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. Oh boo hoo. Dean repeatedly says stupid things. I can't defend him

He's an idiot. Sorry.

[AWD]

16. Dean is finished

Yep, he's cooked all right.

What's this, the 9th or 10th time he's been finished????

[w13rd0]

18. 12th...

...you must have totally been asleep from 2am till 6am the night of November 9th. He died twice that night.

[eileen_d]

17. No, it's not, not, not, not.

He'll keep going.

[mikehiggins]

19. Actually the point is moot, IMHO

There is no way on earth that OBL is going to be captured alive to be paraded around the world like some captive of a Roman emperor.

He is on a mission from God and has no fear of death, unlike Saddam.

OBL would prefer to die in a firefight in the foothills of Pakistan than have pictures broadcast of him having his teeth checked like an old horse.

Still, I could wish someone would tell Dean to shut up once in awhile. How many times will his serious, well thought out positions be undermined by his quick comments before the damage done is beyond repair.

Even implying there might be a chance that OBL could be found innocent of the charges against him is deadly.

[sandnsea]

22. lol well thought out positions

What a fucking riot. If he HAD well thought out positions, he wouldn't make idiotic comments like this. People who KNOW what their positions are, KNOW what they are. They don't have to go back and say "oops" every other day. When oh when will his supporters figure out that these aren't quick comments. They're pure ignorance. He doesn't know what he's talking about and that's why he says the things he says.

[Brian_Expat]

28. Wait a minute

If he HAD well thought out positions, he wouldn't make idiotic comments like this.

Do you truly believe it's an "idiotic position" to argue that Bin Laden should be tried in a court of law with a fair trial and rules of evidence before being convicted?

If you do, and a majority of Americans do, our country is in far, far greater trouble than I'd dared fear. :(

[MercutioATC]

23. How am I misreading this?

Dean essentially says that, even though he personally feels that Bin Laden should be punished, there is a legal presumption of innocence in this country and the executive should remember that. There's a problem with that statement?

[LWolf]

25. It ain't over 'til it's over.

To be grammatically incorrect. I'm not a Dean supporter, but I have some concern. I live in a republican stronghold, with plenty of right-wing nuts driving local politics. My local paper is independently owned and staunchly republican. Yesterday the editorial page was all about Dean. They ripped him ten different new ones. I'd post links, but they don't put the op/ed page on their website. I was really disturbed, and I don't want to nominate Dean. While I can be glad Dean's taking the heat instead of my preferred candidate, I know it's only because he's getting all the press.

I was disturbed because their attacks were bogus. They had nothing to do with the reasons Dean is not my choice; they were attacking basic democratic values in no uncertain terms. They just picked on Dean because he is the proclaimed "front runner." And there was more in this morning's paper.

It doesn't matter who we nominate; any of the 9 will come under the same attacks, and we'd better be prepared to defend, and to take the battle to them.

I can disagree with Dean all I like among other democrats, progressives, or other reasonable people. When the enemy takes it to him, or any other of our candidates, I'm not going to cheer them on. I'm going to step in and defend. Kind of like my boys when they were growing up; squabble all you want among yourselves. Present a united front when attacked from the outside. Defend the attacks on our issues; if we can't, it won't matter what the candidate's name is.

[Padraig18]

26. Take a deep breath--- Gov. Dean is fine.

:hug:

[sharkey377]

27. Candidacy NOT OVER, Finished or Cooked:

I disagree with Yavin, and for all the non-Deaniacs hoping this will come to pass, just be careful what you wish for!

FACT #1 Howard Dean has raised a "war chest" out of all proportion to the other eight DEM candidates.

FACT #2 Howard Dean has energized the youth of our party through his use of the very medium we in DU are using right now (The inter-net).

FACT #3 The infighting between the remaining candidates is becoming more shrill and nasty by the minute.

FACT #4 If the Bill & Hill (DLC) wing of the party do manage to exclude the good Doctor from the nomination at the convention, just what may I ask do you thing Howard Dean will do with his "War Chest", his inter-net network, and his rabid support from the youth of the party.

I suspect he will continue with his candidacy (he certainly has the money to do so) as an independent and become the "Ross Perot" of the left........

Something to think on, anyway.......

Calihan :think:

[genius]

29. DEan flip-flopped right after he made that statement.

I thought there was some hope for him for a minute. The media will use the version of his statement they find most interesting and Bush will use both to attack his credibility.

[Code_Name_D]

31. Ca-ching

Dean gets a qurter every time I hear some one say that. Hmm, may be I better reduce that to a nickel, so I don't straine my budget.

[Capn Sunshine]

33. You know, EVERY MONTH it's something

I have begun to mark time by Meetups , and I have told many an inexperienced supporter who expresses the monthly "Dean's problem" :

"we'll all still be here , next month, with more money, more supporters and 30 days closer to the nomination"

and so we will.


Let's focus on IOWA. OKAY?

[OHdem10]

35. Dean"s candidacy is not over

In checking out all the Sunday News show--talk shows I had to draw this conclusion. Many commentators(Pundits) themselves stated
"We can write articles discuss his missteps on TV, radio--bring attention to these--but it energizes his movement and the money rolls in for him and his suporters call us, e-mail us-write us in protest." In the end he was the predicted nominee.

I see this as much the same as George Bush and his base. No matter what Bush does--his base stays with him. This is what has given Bush his power.

While I am not a Dean supporter I have to say he understands Party Politics better than anyone we have in Washington.

[valphoosier]

38. I think I'm off the wagon...

The bumper sticker may well be coming off the car, tonight. Dean's not-quite-ready for prime time actions have really given me serious questions about his electability AND the possibility that he could seriously hurt democrats down ballot in moderate areas.

I really like Dean's positions and would easily vote for him in November, but I fear -- greatly -- that moderates would not.

MAYBE the death penalty for Bin Laden? You can have that belief, but, he's kidding himself if he thinks the American middle would buy that. He needs to be unequivocal on such issues.

The US is no safer after Saddam's capture?? This shocked me. If you look at it, he may be correct (are we any safer with him in a cell or a spider cave), but it's a horrible soundbite that will be in RNC commercials this summer and fall.

Repeal ALL the tax cuts? Again, this may be a decent idea, but it won't sell AT ALL. It won't even sell to most democrats, let alone independents and moderate republicans.

We can pick a candidate who sticks to his principles but who, at the same time, thinks before he speaks and appeals to the center.

We can't let this election be about gay rights, abortion, and Saddam Hussein. It must be about domestic issues -- including homeland security (if the Dem candidate can jump on that issue early) -- not Dean's gaffes. If he is the nominee, I fear that his mouth will have already done him in.

[whirlygigspin]

39. yup, the republicans are right

we don't need facts about WMD's to start wars;
we don't need evidence to detain prisoners indefinately;
-so why should we need proof before we execute Bin Laden?

That stupid Dean and his respect for law, this the last straw!
How un-American!
the bastard,
who does he think he is?

I'm so upset, I can barely write his name on this check.

[Nicholas_J]

40. To state that the campaign must be entirely about domestic issues

Ignores a great deal of what a president must do.

Deans earliest statements about Iraq support complete unilateral invasion of Iraq, simply based on Deans statement that was made in Septemeber of 2002 on Face the Nation:


FTN - 09/29/02
WASHINGTON


Dean:

Look, it's very simple. Here's what we ought to have done. We should have gone to the U.N. Security Council. We should have asked for a resolution to allow the inspectors back in with no pre-conditions. And then we should have given them a deadline saying "If you don't do this, say, within 60 days, we will reserve our right as Americans to defend ourselves and we will go into Iraq."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/printable523726.shtml

And a number of other flip flops on unilateral attacks on a number of occasions:

nilateralism

While Dean has repeatedly emphasized his belief that war efforts should be pursued through the U.N., Dean has also appeared willing, at times, to accept unilateral war in Iraq.

As recently as February 2003, just a month before the war began, Dean appeared to accept a unilateral approach in Iraq as a necessary evil.

According to an interview with Salon's Jake Tapper, when Dean was asked to clarify his Iraq position, Dean said that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, Dean said, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

Five months before this statement, according to a Des Moines Register report on October 6, 2002, Dean said, "It's conceivable we would have to act unilaterally , but that should not be our first option."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html

He has also flip flopped on issues regarding his belief that Saddam constituted a threat to the U.S., FIrst stating Saddam did, and then stating he did not.

He has made numerous flip flope on domestic issues such as cutting Social Security, and Medicare, reducing growth of those programs and thne stating that they would be totally off the table for cuts.

He praised Newt Gingrich and the Neo-COn programs for reducing spending on these programs in the mid 90's, repeated the same statements on Meet the Press with Tim Russert, and then when Kucinich nailed him on it, he denied having made the statements, only to have
the media reprint his past statements, and then apologizing for having made them.

How many time does Dean have to flip flop on issues, whether domestic or foreign before it becomes apparent that Dean will simply say anything that the public opinion polls demand that he say in order to get people to support him.

This tendency of Dean to say anything to get what he wants has been ponted out by a number of Vermonters who dealt with him and his administation in Vermont as Governor:

Perspective on Dean from a Vermont Sierra Club Activist

His record is one of opposing just about everything the environmental
lobby supported. He was always there with the lip service as long as there was actually
nothing on the table. He has developed a reputation for saying what his audience wants to
hear, then doing whatever suits him later.

http://www.thomasleavitt.org/personal/blog/index.php?p=311&c=1

Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

All that is necessary is to go back and look at Deans record and statements on Virtually every issue, from domestic to foreign policy to find a record of complete inconsistancy, and playing to whatever he beleives that an audience wants to hear in order to get him what he wants. Power.

The Bin Laden Statements are simply the latest in a series of inconsitancies that have been the hallmark of Deans camapaign since the day he decided to run.

The fact is, that he has openly contradicted every stance he has taken except the one that has been his guiding star since he first took his first public office in Vermont. That is Fiscal Conservatism based on cutting social programs. That is the only thing that Dean has been consistant in during his entire political career.

He is sure to be as inconsistant in his statements about domestic policy as he has been about foreign policy.

He is certain to revert to the extreme conservative, pro-big-business platform that he followed like a compass as governor.

But that seems to be what we have been trying to get out of the White House since 2000.

[isbister]

41. Re: Dean's Candidacy Is Done, Over, Finished, Cooked

I don't know about him being cooked but he's headed in the wrong direction and he can't blame a lot of these things on anyone other than himself.

It seems like there's something he has to have his people explain every few days. Kerry or Lieberman (forgot who said it) were right, Dean can't run while having to have a press release after every time he speaks. (We already have someone like that occupying the White House)

If he truly was smart he would stay in Iowa until the vote... just meeting with people... and stay away from the microphones.