Feeling Dean’s Pain

[killbotfactory]

Interesting article from Howard Fineman.

His straight talk and blunt, suffer-no-fools style have helped make him the Democrat to watch in 2004. What makes Howard Dean tick?

July 21 issue — Charlie Dean died 30 years ago in the jungles of Laos at the age of 23. But all these years later his older brother, Howard, remains angry and unsettled about the event—and the unanswered questions that surround it. He has had psychological counseling for what he calls his “survivor’s guilt,” and has journeyed to Laos seeking “closure.” Yet Dean still cries about the loss, and is doing so now, slumped in a folding chair at his presidential-campaign headquarters up in Burlington, Vt. “I know what it is like to sit at home, waiting,” he says to NEWSWEEK, his voice trailing off. His features collapse, his eyes and his face turn red. He raises a hand to his brow as tears stream down his cheeks and he sobs quietly. “Sorry,” he says, then brightens as, ever the doctor, he examines, almost clinically, his own reaction. “It’s amazing after 30 years, isn’t it?”

http://www.msnbc.com/news/937672.asp

[CMT]

1. when I read that tears come to my eyes too

Some may be critical of Dean for skiing rather than serving in Vietnam (not his fault--he didn't try and dodge the draft)but I'm happy he never was sent to Vietnam--one more soldier who may have had to kill someone else to uphold our countries ideas of freedom by imposing them on another country--or he might have been killed himself one of the 58,000 who bravely gave their lives in a wrong headed war just like we had/have in Iraq.

[Mairead]

73. My reaction comes when I read something like this

"So “Howie” Dean pumped iron furiously at St. George’s Episcopal School in Newport, R.I., playing guard and linebacker on the football team—positions normally reserved for bigger boys. He was wrestling captain in his senior year, a master of the quick pin."

Weightlifter, football guard, linebacker, wrestler, and skier -- yet he wasn't sturdy enough to pass an induction physical?

uh-huh. Sure he wasn't. He was a draft-dodger.

[JohnKleeb]

2. Thats so sad about his brother

[Mairead]

3. a little balance

[killbotfactory]

4. I forgot rich people are incapable of experiencing emotional pain.

thank you for reminding me. For a second there I thought Dean might actually be a human being.

[Mairead]

11. They tend to feel their own pain

but they often have a hard time feeling anyone else's. Dr Dean is like that, as I point out in another thread here.

[killbotfactory]

12. Yeah, he became a doctor because he only cares about himself...

WTF?

What a bunch of shit.

[Mairead]

13. I've met a number of physicians

who went into the profession only because it pays well. I find them repellent.

Good human values are not an admission criterion for med school. In fact, when Dr Dean was seeking admission, they were a liability. It's only in recent years that some schools have begun factoring in qualities other than good science scores.

So please, spare us.

[killbotfactory]

14. No, please spare me your demonization of a decent man...

just because you support a different candidate.

[Mairead]

16. To channel Harry Truman for a moment

"I don't demonise, I tell the truth and they think it's demonising"

The facts are the facts, and I speak as I find.

If Dr Dean weren't a elite corporatist, you wouldn't hear one single word of complaint about him from me. I'd support him enthusiastically.

But he is an elite corporatist. He worked to keep corporate hands in the healthcare till, he's not outraged by the evisceration of our Constitutional rights, he lied (or is bone-ignorant, take your choice) about the science on marijuana and is a drug warrior, he wants to keep the military-industrial complex completely funded at its insanely high levels, and he apparently doesn't care a fig for the plight of the innocent Palestinian people who've been brutalised for over 50 years.

He's a complete business-as-usual elite who will continue to steer us toward the cliff while he transfers money from our pockets into those of his wealthy peers. 'Fiscal conservative' is code for 'spend money on the wealthy, not the poor'.

What I'd like to know is whether the DUers who support him do so because they just aren't thinking, or because they too are from the R wing of the D party.

[thom1102]

20. First off...

Fiscal conservative does not mean 'spend money on the wealthy, not the poor,' it means not bankrupting the country like the city of Cleveland over high ideals that don't work in practice.

Secondly, the draconian cuts in the military budget "Dennis the Menace" would like to implement, would cripple our ability to provide peacekeeping efforts around the globe and still be able to effectively defend our country from an outside attack, dragging us back to an isolationist foreign policy (like before WWI).

Third, by not cracking down on it's Islamist extremist groups, who will not quit until Israel is wiped off the map, the Palestinian Authority is just as culpable for the mess they are in as is Israel.

Fourth, he isn't working to keep "corporate hands in the healthcare till," he is trying to effect an implementable plan for healthcare reform, that will actually pass, and that will actually reduce the number of uninsured in this country.

I support Dean because he has a sound and responsible agenda, he is charismatic (and doesn't come off like a screeching harpy like someone else we all know (see first debate)), he isn't afraid to take the President to task. That is good enough for me.

[thom1102]

22. I want to apologize to the responsible Kucinich supporters

I probably should have sent that last as a personal message to mairead or whoever that is. i normally don't attack in that manner, but mairead, or what ever, was extremely insensitive to Dean, and postin that editorial cartoon in a thread that talked about the man's grief over his brother was in poor taste, and I felt a dressing down was in order. So to all you responsible Kucinich supporters, good luck, stand by your man, and no hard feelings, and again I am sorry... especially for the Dennis the Menace and Screeching Harpy bits.

thom

[Mairead]

25. Thom, his brother is not more important than anyone else's

brother, father, son, or husband. His grief is not special, and the grief-by-proxy of people here is even less so. The fact that he willfully embraces positions that ensure that tens of thousands of innocent people will suffer the loss of their loved ones makes his grief seem shallow and insubstantial to me.

People who really grieve don't do things that create grief for other people. They know better!

[thom1102]

28. And people who know about grief don't mock

other's grief, even if you don't believe in what they stand for! If Bush I or Barbara Bush, or even one of W's Daughters, were to die today, I would not find it acceptable to attack W's outpouring of grief. I would be respectful of the man and his loss even though I find absolutely NOTHING redeemable about the man, and you should be ashamed that you would stoop so low!

Based on your previous thread I can only assume that by "The fact that he willfully embraces positions that ensure that tens of thousands of innocent people will suffer the loss of their loved ones makes his grief seem shallow and insubstantial to me." you are referring to the mid-east situation? Well, in my opinion, for anyone to be completely for one side or the other in that conflict only shows their lack of understanding of the complexities of the issues involved. I grieve for the Palestinian's and their plight, but I also believe that Israelis have the right to security, and that the loss of life on BOTH sides is unacceptable, and I am sure that most people feel the same way. The trouble is neither side is willing to make the concessions necessary to establish peace in the region. Is that one sides fault over the other? No, both are culpable.

[Mairead]

32. "you should be ashamed that you would stoop so low! "

You're confused. People who use their power to save others from suffering deserve my respect, and my sympathy when they suffer a loss of their own. People who don't, don't.

"you are referring to the mid-east situation?"

I'm referring to the drug war that kills and maims uncounted people here and abroad while sucking up $300G or more every year that could be used to improve lives rather than destroy them.

I'm referring to the war budget that is enormous (soon to be 50% of all military spending in the whole world), murderous (bombs and missiles kill indiscriminately), ineffective (we remain completely vulnerable to attacks that could wipe most of our major cities right out), and beyond wasteful (there are one trillion dollars --one million million dollars-- unaccounted for on the Pentagon's books. Think of how much good that 'missing' $1T could have done!).

And yes, I'm also referring to the semitic region. When you talk about 'balance', it only betrays that you don't know the history. Try http://www.cactus48.com; read the 'The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict' pdf by Jews for Justice. Then see if you're of the same opinion still.

(edit: fixed title of pdf, minor text changes)

[thom1102]

34. I have done plenty of research on the Middle East

in both the classroom setting and on my own. I know the history better than most, and I stand by my assertion that there is plenty of blame to go around.

As for the defense budget, there may be waste in it, and it may be large, but the kind of cuts that Kucinich proposes would cripple our capacity to effectively defend the country, and be able to provide effective peacekeeping forces around the world (you know, preventing the slaught of millions collectively by the Milosovic's, and Taylors of the world).

Your libertarian streak is showing. Drug use destroys more lives than just the addict. My partner's brother is a recovering addict, and is very successful in his recovery, but the scars of the pain he caused his family are still very evident almost ten years since he went clean. The criminalization of drugs maybe should be reexamined. I think that we should focus on helping addicts recover rather than imprisoning them. But I don't think legalizing drugs is the answer. We should be attacking the demand as well as the supply.

Finally, everyone is deserved of sympathy. It is what makes us human. When you are unable to sympathize with your enemy, the ability to make peace with them is lost.

[Mairead]

36. Tell us what 'defence' cuts Dennis would make

Since you assert that they would disable us, tell us what they are, and how they would contribute to the scenario you postulate.

[thom1102]

37. I don't have a link, but I have heard him say

that he would cut the defense budget by as much as 50%. Those Draconian cuts would mean one of 2 things:

1) Across the board cuts, which would lead to the halving of the size of our military.

2) Cuts in the personnel budget, which would mean cutting the pay of some of the poorest of the working class. (most families in the military live on the edge of poverty) These would be coupled with elimination of new programs, such as next generation advances in technology. Most of the equipment our servicemembers use is 20-30 years old, and nearing the end of its effective lifespan. There are R&D programs which are currently underway to replace them.

Military effectiveness is measured as the ability to fight a war on two fronts abroad and defend the mainland (notice I refrain from using homeland). With choice 1, we are no longer able to fulfill that role, with a military half the size it is now. Choice 2 would see less and less young people interested in enlisting, shrinking the pool of potential servicepeople, and leaving fewer qualified enlisted members. So not only would the military's ranks be smaller, they would be filled by less effective people, therefore needing more people to do the same job with aging equipment requiring more service, and more parts. The result would mean more people are required to defend the mainland, units needing to be rotated more frequently for equipment servicing, and less units availible to be deployed to render aid in emergency situations abroad, like Liberia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Rwanda(which we should have done something about), Somalia, Haiti, etc.

[JackieO]

39. I don't think that's correct

15% is what I heard

[thom1102]

40. I tried to verify on his website,

But he just say "cut" and gives no percentage.

[Mairead]

72. So much for your assertion (nt)

[gottaB]

26. I like Kucinich

but what you said about fiscal conservatives, damn that was funny. Thanks for saying that.

On the issue of poor taste, you're in a political forum reading a thread where Dean's grief is being used to Dean's political advantage. So it doesn't pay to throw stones, or be too thin-skinned.

Mairead's cartoon was damn funny too.

48. Frankly the reaction of Dean supporters

to pointed criticism has done more to turn me off of Dean than anything Dean himself has done (or not done). Your apology isn't sincere.

[thom1102]

56. You don't know me from Adam!

And the presumption that you know whether my apology is sincere is ludicrous. My apology was very sincere. I'd rather focus on the issues, not throw stones. But Kucinich supporters, such as yourself, want to smear Dean (and by proxy his supporters) as a person, not take issue with his policies, or worse, you want to wrap up the person with the policies. You talk about how sincere and honest Kucinich is, well how sincere and honest is it to change your stance on abortion just to make yourself more viable as a democratic candidate? That's standing up for your principles!

[Nazgul35]

57. Just Dean huh?

you're ok about Kerry and Kucinich supporters who spend great amounts of their day's doing nothing but tear down Gov. Dean...instead of offering their own candidate's policy intitiatives...or even better...claiming no support for a particular candidate, they rip into dean without offering a viable alternative...

As the great poet once said..."mythinks you doth protest too much..."

Dean has certainly been the brunt of thread after thread of "this guy sucks" attacks. And the usual response is because Dean supporters post so much about their candidates, we feel there needs to be balance....I agree...

So why don't you do what the Dean supporters do...post articles and information about your candidates stances on issues....or is it just that the comparison would not shed any light?

Dean supporters don't have thin skins considering the amount of abuse the governor has taken on DU, many of the attacks the same complaints over and over again after they have been discounted with proof that the original poster was misqouting Dean (for an example...see the medical marijuiana post...)

I suggest that those of you who are so quick to harp about how mean or thinskinned the dean supporters are take a look around and see how much of their time the other candidate's supporters are spending slamming Dean and not saying boo about their candidates...then ask yourself why....

59. I'll do just that

"So why don't you do what the Dean supporters do...post articles and information about your candidates stances on issues....or is it just that the comparison would not shed any light?"

It's a good Idea. Not that I haven't already. As it stands I don't think that I have been overly critical of Dean. I don't like him and I don't trust him, but my problem as stated above has more to do with the actions of his followers or at least most of the ones posting on DU. Who prefer to focus on the spelling of "defense" as if it impeaches my intelligence or credibility. The ones who call people "abominations" for laying out a fairly clear and calm criticism of Dean. The ones who change the subject to the personality or history of an arguer, i.e. asking for their profile and credentials, instead of dealing with the argument and then accusing their perceived enemy of ad hominen attacks.

[thom1102]

60. Then deal with the substance of the argument

see post 30.

Why isn't Kucinich unelectable? How is he going to sell a patently liberal message to a harshly divided electorate? (with a slightly conservative edge) And for the record, you impugned my credibility first, doubting the sincerity of my apology. With the exception of Johnkleeb and gottab, there has been no "clear and calm" criticism of Dean in this thread. It has been character smearing of Dean and now you smearing his supporters, with very little focus on his policies.

61. Kucinich is electable

"If any Democrat has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich. He has repeatedly defeated entrenched incumbents. He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for
Congress in 1996.

His Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts.

Kucinich is a winner because he builds Wellstone-like grassroots campaigns against bigger-spending opponents. He is a winner because of his blue collar roots and populism, reflected in his battles for heartland voters against unfair, corporate-friendly trade deals.

He is an unabashed progressive who wins because swing voters who don't agree with him on every issue still see him as a fighter for their interests, as someone who will put the interests of workers and middle-class consumers ahead of big-money interests. No Democrat is better positioned in 2004 to attract 'Reagan Democrats' and swing voters with a frontal attack on how Bush policies hurt them and favor the rich.

Republicans use "wedge" issues to pry away traditionally-Democratic white working class voters -- a tactic that has not succeeded against Kucinich. In '96, for example, Republicans used his support of gay rights as a wedge, and he stood firm and triumphed.

On the other side of the spectrum, no other candidate can attract disaffected voters, 3rd party voters and Ralph Nader supporters to the Democratic column like Kucinich. Across the country, Nader 2000 voters and Green Party sympathizers are joining his campaign, as are other 3rd party supporters.

It's been a long while since progressives and the Democratic base have been so motivated, and so angry -- over manipulation and deceit that began in the 2000 election and continued through the Iraq war (now finally catching up with the Bush team). No candidate can better tap into and mobilize the anger of the Democratic base than Kucinich, who has never wavered in his opposition, who has courageously led the way in exposing war manipulation, and who speaks with passion to the big issues that animate Democratic and progressive activists.

Kucinich has been a winner in a swing district in the swing state of Ohio. And Ohio has 20 electoral votes. It is the state that is key to national victory; only two candidates in the 20th century won the presidency without carrying Ohio.

Al Gore lost Ohio in 2000 despite the Herculean efforts of Kucinich, as vividly described by journalist James Ridgeway in an article written days before the election: "Kucinich is a shoo-in, but hauling Gore along will be a daunting task. Shuttling back and forth from Washington, Kucinich has put together an old-fashioned canvassing operation throughout Cleveland and its suburbs that is one of the largest such efforts in the nation. By election day, 400 to 500 people will be on the streets...

"Day after day, members of the laborers, electricians, plumbers, and steelworkers unions crowd into Kucinich's tiny office on Lorain Avenue, piling signs into the backs of cars and pickups before hitting the neighborhoods. The general approach is for volunteers to use Kucinich's name to get a foot in the door, then ask for support for a Democratic judge before uttering the vice president's name."

Kucinich's best efforts couldn't win Ohio for Gore in 2000, but Kucinich can win Ohio himself if he is the 2004 Democratic presidential candidate. And in presidential politics, as Bush-strategist Karl Rove knows well: As Ohio goes, so goes the nation."




KUCINICH SCORES IN IOWA

"As was widely reported this past weekend (Washington Post, L.A. Times, etc.), Dennis Kucinich was ranked number one by undecided union members at Saturday's candidate forum in Des Moines at AFSCME's national convention. Reuters reported: "A focus group of 30 union members in Iowa, which holds the first nominating contest in January, found Kucinich with the highest overall rating and Sharpton, Gephardt and Dean right behind, pollster Celinda Lake said. 'I loved what Kucinich feels in his gut and how he supports labor; I think he gained a lot of support today,' Michael Arken of Portland, Oregon, said after the forum."

Despite a late start, our campaign is gaining traction in this crucial heartland caucus state. "Kucinich has been spending considerable time in Iowa," reported the political columnist of the Des Moines Register, "and his good score indicates he could be on the verge of becoming a factor in the Iowa contest."

Kucinich received a rousing reaction to his opening remarks:
"As President, I'll make sure that workers' rights are enshrined in a Workers' White House. As President, I'll issue an executive order which will say that anyone who gets a federal contract will have to provide that when 50% of the workers sign up for a union, there's an automatic union. As President, I'll set aside those provisions of Taft-Harley which attack the right to organize. As President (with a 100% AFSCME voting record, I might add), one of my first acts in office -- recognizing how trade has devastated so many towns around Iowa and the nation -- will be to cancel NAFTA and the WTO.

"I ask this administration: Tell me, Mr. Bush, where are those weapons of mass destruction? I've seen those weapons, and I'll tell you where they are. Joblessness is a weapon of mass destruction. Poverty is a weapon of mass destruction. Hopelessness is a weapon of mass destruction. Let's bring back hope in America. Let's bring back jobs in America. Let's bring back workers' rights in America! Thank you." "

KUCINICH #1 WITH ACTIVISTS, AGAIN

"Speaking to more than 1200 progressive leaders and activists in civil rights, labor, feminism, peace and the environment at the "Take Back America" conference in D.C. yesterday, Kucinich "electrified" the crowd with a "spell-binding speech." Here's a description from Salon, whose sub-headline reported, "Kucinich's Bush roasting gets the biggest cheers":

"The most impassioned applause of the day was reserved for Kucinich. Introduced by Leo Gerard, president of the United Steelworkers of America, as 'the only vegan in Congress,' Kucinich took the stage to John Lennon's 'Imagine' and proceeded to conjure the heyday of American progressivism by promising a new version of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Works Project Administration. 'We're gonna rebuild America's cities and we're gonna do it with America's steel'... Medicare for all, money pulled out of the Pentagon budget to pay for schools and other domestic programs, and 'total nuclear disarmament.' He spoke to the crowd's fury over the war in Iraq, getting a screaming standing ovation when he cried: 'This war was wrong! This war was fraudulent! We must expose this administration.'

"When he was finished it was clear there was no point in having anyone else follow him. 'Dennis Kucinich has barbecued George Bush,' said the emcee. 'How about we have a barbecue right now?'"

The crowd adjourned to a party, according to Salon, partly because conference organizers took pity on Dick Gephardt and delayed his video message, scheduled to follow Kucinich, which "would have played like a parody of establishment banality."

--
PS. While there was no doubt to those in attendance at the "Take Back America" conference yesterday that Dennis Kucinich had won the event, some journalists seem so blinded by their preconceived notions of who is a "frontrunner" or "contender" or "leading candidate," that they have difficulty reporting objectively on what happens in front of their eyes. In the Los Angeles Times account, which acknowledged that Kucinich's speech was "repeatedly interrupted by standing ovations," Dennis is reduced to little more than a footnote.

What's striking about some of the mainstream coverage of our grassroots campaign is how similar it is to the dismissive coverage of Jerry Brown in '91/'92 and Jesse Jackson in '87/'88 -- while prominence and tens of thousands of words were lavished on well-funded "contenders" who barely made it past the first New Hamphire primary, and whose campaigns are no longer even remembered."


And need I remind you that "fringe" Kucinich beat "frontrunner" Kerry in the Moveon primary. Shortly thereafter raising over a million dollars completely from small donors, because Kucinich won't accept dirty money.

Oh yeah, and Willie Nelson endorses him.

[thom1102]

62. First of all...

:puffpiece:

Great, you can cut and paste a stock campaign piece off his website. I wanted you to explain to me personally how you think he can sell a message to the American people that the majority don't want?

"As President, I'll make sure that workers' rights are enshrined in a Workers' White House. As President, I'll issue an executive order which will say that anyone who gets a federal contract will have to provide that when 50% of the workers sign up for a union, there's an automatic union. As President, I'll set aside those provisions of Taft-Harley which attack the right to organize. As President (with a 100% AFSCME voting record, I might add), one of my first acts in office -- recognizing how trade has devastated so many towns around Iowa and the nation -- will be to cancel NAFTA and the WTO.

Bush is going to have two hundred million dollars, plus tons of pac money from big business to paint Kucinich as a communist based on this message alone. The majority of Americans think NAFTA and the WTO are a-okay, because the media tells them so.

"On the other side of the spectrum, no other candidate can attract disaffected voters, 3rd party voters and Ralph Nader supporters to the Democratic column like Kucinich. Across the country, Nader 2000 voters and Green Party sympathizers are joining his campaign, as are other 3rd party supporters."

Like those who are members of Moveon.org? The place where Dean beat Kucinich nearly 2 to 1?

"Speaking to more than 1200 progressive leaders and activists in civil rights, labor, feminism, peace and the environment at the "Take Back America" conference in D.C. yesterday, Kucinich "electrified" the crowd with a "spell-binding speech." Here's a description from Salon, whose sub-headline reported, "Kucinich's Bush roasting gets the biggest cheers":

"The most impassioned applause of the day was reserved for Kucinich. Introduced by Leo Gerard, president of the United Steelworkers of America, as 'the only vegan in Congress,' Kucinich took the stage to John Lennon's 'Imagine' and proceeded to conjure the heyday of American progressivism by promising a new version of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Works Project Administration. 'We're gonna rebuild America's cities and we're gonna do it with America's steel'... Medicare for all, money pulled out of the Pentagon budget to pay for schools and other domestic programs, and 'total nuclear disarmament.' He spoke to the crowd's fury over the war in Iraq, getting a screaming standing ovation when he cried: 'This war was wrong! This war was fraudulent! We must expose this administration.'"

70,000 people came out for Dean at his announcement. 5,000 + in Burlington VT alone. Makes 1200, seem a little small, don't you think?

Promising to get rid of all our nukes, makes it sound like he is going to give away the whole store with his budget cuts. Not smart at a time when the average Joe is worried more than anytime since the cold war about National Security. His reference to "American Steel" on the same day as a ruling from the WTO against American tariffs for the steel industry shows his contempt for overseas markets (where many of our remaining manufacturing jobs create products for export, jeopardizing even more American Union jobs)

Still comes off as un-electable to the moderate mainstream. You know, those people we need to win the election?

67. :smoke:

"The majority of Americans think NAFTA and the WTO are a-okay, because the media tells them so."

This statement is pure nonsense. What makes you think this?


"Like those who are members of Moveon.org? The place where Dean beat Kucinich nearly 2 to 1?"

Regardless of the fact that Dean got the most votes in that primary he failed to get over 50% and Kucinich came in a strong 2nd well ahead of Kerry. If we were to go by this one event how could you say that Kucinich is unelectable without also saying that everyone except Dean is unelectable. Kucinich beat Kerry and kept Dean from getting the 50% +1 that he needed. That doesn't sound like the work of someone who is unelectable. And if you go by the expectations game Kucinich won hands down. He will continue to win the expectation game because everyone can't believe that a decent person can be elected president.


"70,000 people came out for Dean at his announcement. 5,000 + in Burlington VT alone. Makes 1200, seem a little small, don't you think?"

The point wasn't the size of the crowd, but the enthusiasm for the message. It's the difference between qualitative and quantitative politics.

"Promising to get rid of all our nukes, makes it sound like he is going to give away the whole store with his budget cuts. Not smart at a time when the average Joe is worried more than anytime since the cold war about National Security. His reference to "American Steel" on the same day as a ruling from the WTO against American tariffs for the steel industry shows his contempt for overseas markets (where many of our remaining manufacturing jobs create products for export, jeopardizing even more American Union jobs)"

These are exactly where Kucinich's strengths are. It's time for a change, people sense it. People are sick of the corporate globalization rackets and the threat of total nuclear anihilation is real. These are good policies. You don't believe that americans are smart enough to tell what is in their interest and it's rather elitist of you (elitism, or the perception of it, is another point of distinction between Kucinich and Dean). The fact of the matter is that if the people want to change directions they will and Dean is not a changing directions kind of guy. He's your typical establishment political machine.

The moderate electorate is not mainstream. The disaffected, non-voting, alienated american is the mainstream and they're waking up.

[thom1102]

74. Not elitism

realism. I base my opinions based on the observations I make and my own experience; of the people around me, of the people I see on TV, I listen to on the radio. It isn't that people are too stupid, it's about media saturation. My point is valid. Too many people implicitly trust the media to provide them with an objective analysis of policy and politics. Most people are too lazy or too busy to take the time to do the actual work necessary to check what the news is telling us. Besides, why should we not trust them? Every commercial break we are told, by them, that they are "Providing the Coverage YOU NEED" "Coverage you can COUNT ON." With that kind of repeated hammering of a message, only the most skeptical, or cynical of viewers could maintain a critical eye while watching. Our local newspaper wrote an article critical of Dean's chances, citing two sources with conflicts of interest without stating them. (One was head of Jeb Bush's trasition team, and the other, a pollster for Joe Lieberman) I wrote a letter to the editor which was printed, and my phone has been ringing off the hook over the weekend with people shocked that their local newspaper was not objective, or at least not cite those conflicts.

Popular opinion turns more like an aicraft carrier, rather than an exotic sports car. An aircraft carrier requires 5 miles to turn, and expecting people to go from being middle right to far left in one election cycle is like expecting an aircraft carrier to turn on a dime. The disaffected, non-voting, alienated american you refer to are the 18-23 yo's who don't care about anything else but where the next party is. Your more idealistic than I thought if you think that they are: 1)progressive, and 2)at all interested in politics.

I know what you are thinking: "then how do you explain the 60's?" Easy, the draft. The kids had a vested interest back then.

83. I disagree

I think people are waking up. It's a rude awakening led by the sinking economic situation. I think people are becoming much more cynical about the media and beginning to see it for what it is, but more importantly most people don't pay any attention to the media TV or print. They get their news through word of mouth and make judgements about where the nation is heading based upon their concrete material situation.

The Idea that 18-23 comprises the 40-60% of the population not voting is a stretch, you're obviously leaving some other demographic groups out. Not only that but I fall into that age group and I am very politically active and know many more people like me.

The 60's was more than the draft. It's awfully simplistic and narrow minded to forget about the civil rights movement and the general cultural revolt that happened or to blaim either on the draft. Most of the 60's Vietnam wasn't that big of an issue. It slowly built into the rallying point.

And why did you pick a single point from my post to reply about (a side point at that). Does that mean you concede my other statements?

[thom1102]

85. And I disagree with you.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on many of these issues.

To address the draft issue, you proved my point about public opinion turning like an aircraft carrier. It took most of the sixties to turn public opinion against the Vietnam War. And it was the draft that gave young people a stake in getting involved in politics. It is nice that you know lots of young people who are politically involved, but I am going back to college at night, and there is no interest in what's going on at my campus. Anti-war rallies were poorly attended, and openly mocked in the class rooms by other students (and I live in Liberal New England). Also, statistics bear out that voters under 25 have the lowest percentages of voter turn out. So, while 40-60% may be high, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-30% is probably close. Additionally, the young people on college campuses are generally the more intelligent and middle and upper class youth, and therefore, more apt to feel like they have a responsibility to participate.

Dean may not have gotten 50% on the Moveon.org primary, but he still won by a huge margin among progressive organizers with a mostly centrist platform. Essentially, Moveon.org was Kucinich's to lose, and he did. As far as enthusiasm for the message is concerned, that is exactly why Dean, an obscure Governor from one of the smallest, least, populated, rural states, is drawing 70000 people to his rally's; because his message resonates with people.

As far as globalization is concerned, most people don't know how globalization is affecting much of the rest of the world, because all they see is what the media shows them: disaffected college students and leftover hippies torching McDonalds, and Starbucks in Seattle. And why does the media propogate this image? Because globalization is good for the media companies, and, therefore they want to make the protesters look bad. So they may be good policies but they will not fly with the average voter. The moderate electorate IS the mainstream, as much as wish it wasn't so. Want to test this? Set up a Kucinich table outside your local supermarket, mall, flea market, or, better yet, Walmart, and ask see what the response is.

As I said earlier, I respect that he got into the race to highlight the issues that are important to him, and I respect his supporters who stand by him and am willing to discuss differences of policy with them (as we have in the last few posts, where the anger has been turned down a bit, and the flesh of the differences between our point of views can be laid bare)

You are right: "I think people are waking up. It's a rude awakening led by the sinking economic situation." But I think that it's a gradual "sun through the windows on a summer Sunday morning" kinda wake up, rather than an "alarm ringing off the nightstand on another Monday morning" kinda wake up.

[Mairead]

23. Check your facts

'spend money on the wealthy, not the poor' is what 'fiscal conservative' means. 'Belt-tightening' is always about cutting social programs that benefit working people, not cutting corporate welfare or other programs that benefit the wealthy.

Delude yourself if you really want to, but don't try to delude us.

[thom1102]

24. You have some real anger issues

I would see a doctor about them... oh wait, you think that all doctors are in it for the money and don't want to help people. There is a difference between fiscal conservativism and right wing "tax cut for the wealthy" and "spend until we are swimming in debt." Balanced Budgets, saving Social Security, Middle Class Tax Cuts, saving Medicare, reforming Welfare so that it functions as a safety net, not a hammock. These are the ideals of fiscally conservative Democrats, and that is what Dean supports. Now check your facts! www.deanforamerica.org

[Mairead]

27. Do try to build better strawmen.

Also consider getting your catchphrases from the real Democratic wing of the Democratic party, not from the Republicans. Using coded phrases associated with the GOP does you no credit.

[thom1102]

30. You know what?

In the end it doesn't matter, because Kucinich doesn't have the charisma, the platform, the money, or the appeal necessary to garner the nomination, never mind win the election. He got into the race to highlight the issues that are important to him, and to that I say Hazaa for him. But by Super Tuesday, people will be saying "who was that Kucinich guy, anyway?" and Dean will be socking it out with Kerry, and Edwards for the top spot.

Besides, even if, by some bizzare twist of fate, all other qualified candidates die, and Kucinich wins the election, he wouldn't get a thing through Congress. If his platform had the popular support to be made law, as a member of Congress, he would have been pushing these bills through with ease. But he hasn't been able to push through any of the ideas he is campaigning on, so what makes him think he would have any more success with the Bully Pulpit on his side, hmmm?

[JohnKleeb]

44. Who says we wont regain congress

I dont mind Dean and as a matter of fact I dont have a problem with most if not all of his supporters I have had only one instance and that was not with in the last day. I am not sure who I will support if Kucinich falls out it will likely be Dean because he was anti war but Kerry whos the all around liberal gots me thinking too. I think an anti war candiate like our two guys will be more popular now.

[thom1102]

50. Of Course I hope we gain back Congress.

The default position is that we don't. I get really frustrated, because we shouldn't be sniping each other, and bashing each other's candidate, makes us all look bad. One of these guys is going to go up against Chimpy next November, and bloodying up our candidates now, only makes it tougher for the whoever comes out on top later. I will support whoever get's the nod (even Kucinich), but I think that we can talk policy and ideology without smearing them personally.

49. Keep telling yourself that

Kucinich has sincerity and truth on his side, and that's all he needs to start a movement. He won't need congress. Once a real grassroots movement takes hold it'll make the republican "revolution" look like the media hype it was, and that will force congress to move or they'll be rolled over too.

He can win and your emotional defence of Dean betrays your own lack of confidence in him and fear of the change that Kucinich represents.

[thom1102]

54. I have nothing but confidence in Dean.

Even in the Moveon.org primary, a primary of progressive activist, Kucinich came in a distant second to, oh, now who was it again? That's right, DEAN. And my "emotional defense" (please note the spelling, because you are the second Kucinich supporter today to spell it improperly) was in response to a totally inappropriate attack by a Kucinich supporter.

It would be nice if we all lived in the fantasy world where the majority of the people are secretly liberal, but have been voting conservative for the last ten years, waiting for their progressive Messiah to lift them into their Utopia, where truth, justice and the American Way prevail. But I live in the real world, where people have been corrupted by the influence of right wing ideologues in their churches, on their televisions, in their newspapers, on their radios, and have been duped into believing that we are the enemy. That progressivism=communism, and Liberal=Nazi. We need to capture the center and refocus the discussion on our terms, and if we have a candidate who is out of synch with over 50% of the country, we won't have that opportunity.

[killbotfactory]

52. Your opinion is not fact

WTF does the cartoon you posted have to do with the article? Nothing. I doubt you even read the article because it mentions his upper-class upbringing.

What did he lie about in regards to marijuana?

What makes him a drug warrior, wanting to treat it like a medical issue? Kucinich says the same thing and says nothing about legalizing drugs, so what is his plan?

I agree with his view on universal healthcare. You're not going to pass a single-payer plan.

He is outraged by the eviseration of our constitutional rights.

He wants to keep the pentagon budget where it is so we are prepared to fight genocide and terrorism, and protect our nations borders. What will Kucinich do in the face of genocide?

He wants a palestinian state, and doesn't demonize either side because they've both done wrong.

You are totally wrong on fiscal conservatism, but it's been pointed out to you before and you don't seem to care.

What I'd like to know is why you feel the need to crap in threads about Dean and spread disinformation because you support a different candidate.

[dsc]

58. Is mpp lying too?

Here is their response to the question: "Why not wait for more research before making marijuana legally available as a medicine?".

"(R)esearch funds are limited, and there is a daunting thicket of regulations to be negotiated at the federal level (those of the Food and Drug Administration, FDA, and the Drug Enforcement Administration, DEA) and state levels."

"Some drugs, such as marijuana, are labeled Schedule I in the Controlled Substance Act, and this adds considerable complexity and expense to their clinical evaluation."

"(O)nly about one in five drugs initially tested in humans successfully secures FDA approval for marketing through a new drug application."

"From a scientific point of view, research is difficult because of the rigors of obtaining an adequate supply of legal, standardized marijuana for study."

"In short, development of the marijuana plant is beset by substantial scientific, regulatory, and commercial obstacles and uncertainties."

"(D)espite the legal, social, and health problems associated with smoking marijuana, it is widely used by certain patient groups."
Note what this pro legalization group doesn't say. They don't say the studies have been done. Incidently I don't disagree with the fact obsticals exist here but to call a candidate a liar for claiming more study is needed on this issue when even the legalizers agree is nothing short of profound dishonesty.

Here is the link:

www.mpp.org/science.html

edited for the title, the question, and to provide a link. Also replaced brackets with parenthesis.

[Mairead]

69. No, they're stupid

for allowing the drug warriors to frame the issue falsely.

Dr Dean is either lying or stupid, you can take your choice about which you prefer to believe. I prefer to give him credit for intelligence, which means I believe he's lying. You might prefer to give him credit for ethics, in which case you must consider him stupid.

My argument is in that thread.

[thom1102]

76. But that describes anyone whose opinion differs from yours...

the word for that, I think, is intolerant.

[Mairead]

78. It's not about whether it differs from mine

If I bought into the drug-warrior framing, I'd be stupid too.

[thom1102]

86. Again, because it conflicts with what you deem to be

right. Okay, Rush, or would you prefer Savage, or O'Really, or is Hannity more your speed?

[Mairead]

90. What an idiotic thing to say

[keek]

63. You have the wrong impression

excerpt from the interview with Joel Klein at the JFK Library:

He served for governor for 12 years, longer than anyone else in Vermont history, I believe, winning reelection five times, and always by large margins. His career as governor was marked by what the Burlington Free Press calls "an equal emphasis on creating jobs, balancing budgets, and expanding government activism, the secret to his stunning political success."

Howard Dean describes himself as a common sense moderate who believes that social justice can be accomplished through strong fiscal management. As governor, he has a record of reducing Vermont's long-term debt, cutting the income tax twice, creating tens of thousands of new jobs, and increasing the state's minimum wage. He also guaranteed health coverage to every child in Vermont under the age of 18, and expanded programs to help seniors afford prescription drugs. He's been a champion of environmental protection, preserving forests, closing landfills, and reducing pollution. He has been a leader on justice issues, cracking down on domestic violence, putting Vermont in the forefront on child support collections, and signing the nation's first gay rights civil union legislation

"The future of America depends on two things. It depends on how we present ourselves to the world, and it depends on how strong we can be economically. And I'm deeply, deeply worried about the course that we're engaged on now."

"One of the largest and most important and most significant problems in this country, which I keep telling my conservative friends that they ought to have a stake in, is the enormous growing gap between the wealthy and the poor in this country."

http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/forum_dean.html

[Jim Sagle]

18. What you said.

[polpilot]

15. 'Dr. Dean is like that'. Does Judith know of this relationship you

have with the Dr. that provides such insight...or does your info come from cartoons.

Dennis is great but the Dean attacks are absurd. Cartoons??

Dean '04

[Mairead]

17. My info comes from his policies

He can cry about the loss of his brother, while at the same time happily supporting programs that cause tens of thousands of people to lose their brothers, husbands, fathers, and sons. Also sisters, wives, mothers, and daughters.

It's not rocket science. You don't need a PhD to see this.

[DeanandBushSuck]

21. Mairead. . . . . Dean doesn't care, they are not his family members

47. Perhaps not, but...

it doesn't seem as if they're above exploiting it

[sfecap]

5. Thanks for the balance...so tell me, how was it that

Kucinich bankrupted Cleveland?

[JohnKleeb]

6. and didnt he get a commendition a few years back from the city council

Also theres a DUer here who can tell you that Dennis saved him money. BTW I dont agree with that response but refusing to sell the city's power may had been in the short run terrible but it did good in the end.

[sfecap]

7. Well, gee...* gave me a tax cut...doesn't mean anything.

I'm really getting tired of the Dean attacks...to what end does attacking the candidates help defeat the chimp regime?

It seems like every time something positive is posted here about Dean, the knives come out.

Kucinich bankrupted a city that he was mayor of. He has flipped on a womans choice. He voted to make flag burning a crime. Is HE really the "liberal" he purports to be?

Being President consists of a bit more than establishing a "department of Peace" (which is an incredibly stupid campaign promise, BTW.....)

Shall we play "attack Kucinich" for a while?

(Sigh....)

[JohnKleeb]

8. Did I attack Dean no?

and in fact if you look up there you will noticed I expressed sorrow for Mr. Dean not being able to know what happened to his brother. I hate to be a jerk but Dean flip floped on medical pot and the death penalty how is that different. He's not some crazy nationalist either he is against flag burning because he knows what the flag means to many of his constuients do I agree with that no. His city was bankrupted but he saved Clevelanders money if you didnt know. Why is it stupid to dream of peace would you like to be able to prevent the next Vietnam. Dont attack Kucinich because one of his supporters did your guy wrong. I expressed sorrow and pity for Mr. Dean. Actually he has a lot more ideas than the department of peace he plans to give labor its rights back if thats not important I dont know what is. You know what the bloody shame of this is most Dean and Kucinich supporters respect each other's candiate and you resorted to attacking Kucinich because of his supporters was insenstive. Again I feel bad for what happened to Charlie Dean 30 years ago but I dont support his brother for president at the moment.

[sfecap]

9. I did it to illustrate a point...

(And, no you didn't attack Dean...)

To tell you the truth, I have respect for Dennis, and I have never attacked him here or anywhere else. I am just getting sick of the chronic and relentless attacks on Dean. In fact I am beginning to think that a few here would find a far friendlier audience over at Freeperville. Perhaps they ought to post their pseudo freeper crap there.

It's not fun to have your guy smeared is it? We all should consider that and govern ourselves accordingly....

[JohnKleeb]

10. Good glad I get you

That was wrong and I have seen my candiate attacked as "unelectable" and the like. Its annoying but dont emualate what you hate its hard I know. I have never smeared Dean myself I originally supported him but being an economic liberal changed my mind do I like the guy? yes do I nearly see eye to eye with him no would I prefer him to Bush hell yes and he could do some great good.

[thom1102]

19. Describing Kucinich as Unelectable is not an attack

it's an observation. Dean has been described as unelectable as well, but most Dean supporters I know respond to that by citing examples which refute that assertion. Anytime the topic comes up about Kucinich, his supporters go hypersonic, and dogs for miles start howling. I can make an airtight argument as to why Kucinich is unelectable, and smash any assertion that Dean is into bits. When you can do the same about Kucinich, then you won't view the unelectable tag as an insult.

[Mairead]

29. "I can make an airtight argument"

"I can make an airtight argument as to why Kucinich is unelectable, and smash any assertion that Dean is into bits."

In your mind I'm sure you can, but I think you'd find it less easy in the real world.

[thom1102]

31. I am doing a damn good job right here right now!

nt

[Mairead]

33. In your mind, kiddo, only in your mind (nt)

[thom1102]

35. Dream on!

"Kiddo!"

[thom1102]

38. Well, if you can do, than do it ...

I have been defending your attacks against Dean, but you have failed to address my criticisms of Kucinich as laid out in post 30. I have shown how Dean is electable. I have stated his positions, and effectively defended against your railings, yet you present NO defense against the unelectable argument.

[Mairead]

71. Thom, I was *quoting you*

And you haven't 'effectively defended' anything. Get some perspective, for heaven's sake!

[thom1102]

75. Who the hell are you to tell me to get some perspective!!!

You come into a thread about Dean, bash him, attack his supporters, LOSE EVERY ARGUMENT, and then try to claim victory? No wonder you think that Kucinich is electable; you are DELUSIONAL!

[Desertrose]

41. everything Mairead's said about Dean is observation as well...

you construe it as an attack against Dean when she is merely stating facts about the man.

Your comment about DK supporters going hypersonic is a good one ...I'd say perhaps its more the reaction of the Dean faction to be very angry & defensive about their man....but who isn't touchy these days with this crazy w* world we are living in?

But using tears about his brother to gain sympathy...that strikes me as a bit much and makes me wonder if the man is using emotions to manipulate his supporters...

Counseling for "survivors guilt"...perhaps he has good reason...he got out of sonething that ended up causing the death of his brother...I would have a problem with that myself...a big problem....so why did he finally go along with the war & then flip flop back?


Why does Dean not want to cut wasteful defense spending? why does everyone think a Dept of Peace (using only 1% of the DOD budget no less) is so outrageous when everyone says they hate war...no one wants to have loved ones killed in wars??

well, its because it is not good economy for many....same with the war on drugs...big pharmaceutical corps...I'm sorry but everytime I look around, I see Deans connections to the corporate people. You can say its thejust the repukes we need to get out, but honey, its the whole system...they control everything and people are waking up to the fact we need a big change it it is not Howard Dean who is providing the ideas for this change. I'm sorry ...its just not.

Kucinich's ideas are sound...they threten those in power and will give power back to the people...thats why you don't hear about Kucinich...that doesn't mean he will fade away or is unelectable....you'll see...we 'll all see by & by.

Peace
DR

edited for clarity-typos ( how come you never see em til its posted?)

[thom1102]

42. Not attacks?

I've excerpted from her posts on this thread. I would really appreciate it if you took a second look at them, and then possibly reassess your statement. To look at someone and there policies and come to the conclusion that while they might look good on paper, their policies are not going to go well with the 50% of the populace who are independent, moderate, swing voters necessary to win the election, is an observation, maybe a judgement. To make the the accusation that he is an elite corporatist, and that since he went into med school at a time when "good human values" were a liablity, and therefore, by inference, Dean has no good human values, these are attacks on his character, not observation.

The original poster excerpted the section where Dean broke down from a larger article (a much larger article) profiling Dean as a person. This was one aspect of an interview which the author chose to focus on. I highly doubt that Dean staged the tears to show his human side. When people ask me about my father, I, too, get upset and often have to take a moment, if it were my little brother, you cna bet it'd be worse. I may be wrong about this, but Dean was always opposed to the war in Iraq, there was no flip flop.

I know, for me, the idea of a department of Peace, seems redundant to me. To me, it is the State Department's job to peacefully pursue American goals on the world stage.

Kucinich has some good ideas, I grant you, but, unfortunately, big media tells the people "I'm ok, you're ok." and the average Joe Sixpack, believes them, because "if it's on TV, the radio, or the newspaper, it's got to be true, right?" They are going to see those big changes as not necessary, and the right is going to reaffirm that idea with ads telling them that Kucinich is another way to spell Communist. So we take little steps, and shift the debate back to our side of the spectrum, where we can truly make lasting changes that will work. Dean is that first step.

I can sit here and say "Kucinich has some good ideas" and credit his supporters for having the courage of their convictions, while disagreeing he is the right way to go. But who in the Kucinich camp can say the same for Dean?


I've met a number of physicians who went into the profession only because it pays well. I find them repellent.

Good human values are not an admission criterion for med school. In fact, when Dr Dean was seeking admission, they were a liability. It's only in recent years that some schools have begun factoring in qualities other than good science scores.

So please, spare us

If Dr Dean weren't a elite corporatist, you wouldn't hear one single word of complaint about him from me. I'd support him enthusiastically.

But he is an elite corporatist. He worked to keep corporate hands in the healthcare till, he's not outraged by the evisceration of our Constitutional rights, he lied (or is bone-ignorant, take your choice) about the science on marijuana and is a drug warrior, he wants to keep the military-industrial complex completely funded at its insanely high levels, and he apparently doesn't care a fig for the plight of the innocent Palestinian people who've been brutalised for over 50 years.

He's a complete business-as-usual elite who will continue to steer us toward the cliff while he transfers money from our pockets into those of his wealthy peers. 'Fiscal conservative' is code for 'spend money on the wealthy, not the poor'.

Do try to build better strawmen

My info comes from his policies He can cry about the loss of his brother, while at the same time happily supporting programs that cause tens of thousands of people to lose their brothers, husbands, fathers, and sons. Also sisters, wives, mothers, and daughters.

It's not rocket science. You don't need a PhD to see this.

In your mind I'm sure you can, but I think you'd find it less easy in the real world

[killbotfactory]

53. Stating an ignorant opinion is not the same as stating facts.

All supporters of a candidate should be pissed of when there is an effort by people to distort the record of, and smear the candidate they support with disinformation.

Using tears to gain sympathy? His younger brother was MURDERED, and you think his tears are a ploy? WTF?

Kucinich doesn't threaten anybody, that's why you don't hear about him.

[Desertrose]

66. Thank you kilbotfactory for calling my opinion ignorant..

I think you just made another point about certain supporters ....

I only spoke about the candidate-Dean- and called no one else names.

I am allowed to express my opinion as are you....I call it as I see it and its fine by me if you disagree....perhaps time will prove someone right....I simply see Kucinich as the better choice and find there is something about Dean that puts up red flags for me...but hey, we obviously all see things differently...

It is interesting that the arguments or statements about Dean are always countered with how unelectable, crazy , or just plain wrong Kucinich is...seems like we gotta agree to let it all go and support our favored candidates in the best way best we can without bashing....but like you, I will address errors about the candidate I support if & when I see them.

So perhaps we can agree to disagree ...
Peace
DR

[killbotfactory]

68. I was referring to Mairead

And it is quite ignorant to say that most rich people only care about themselves. It's like saying all poor people are lazy.

[Mairead]

70. Murdered? Where do you get that information from? (nt)

[killbotfactory]

77. The article that started this thread...

which you apparently didn't read.

[Mairead]

79. Quote where it says he was murdered, why don't you

[killbotfactory]

80. “We think that the North Vietnamese basically ordered them killed,”

All Dean does know is that Charlie and a friend took a ferry on the Mekong River between Laos and Thailand. They were taken into custody by Laotian communists. After three months at a local camp, Dean thinks, Charlie wanted some answers. “So he figured—and this would be typical Dean, not just Charlie but any of us—’All right, let’s get some action here. Let’s go to the top of the food chain’.” Dean speculates that they were on their way to a North Vietnamese military base camp—or on the way back—when they died. “We think that the North Vietnamese basically ordered them killed,” Dean says.

[Mairead]

81. Note the words 'speculate', 'died', and 'we think'. They're significant.

Can you see the difference between your flat 'he was murdered' and what's in the article? Even if we completely accept the article at face value, all it tells us is that he died. That's all we know. The rest is speculation. Third-hand speculation, at that.

This kind of thing is a problem for you, I believe.

[killbotfactory]

82. He was probably murdered.

Happy now? Or do you want to waste time with more semantical games?

[Mairead]

84. One of the markers of adulthood

is the willingness to distinguish between flat and qualified statements, and to own up when wrong. When someone calls you on a false statement, you do yourself no credit by trying to imply that your error wasn't really an error.

[thom1102]

87. I can't believe you are lecturing someone on semantics!!

Ever since you posted in this thread you have been a viscous shrieking rabid banshee, attacking everyone with your INTOLERANT vitriol, because you don't agree with our candidate and his positions, and now you have the unmitigated GALL to start lecturing on semantics while trying to give yourself an air of superiority. Why don't you join the Bush team? Your tactics are more in line with theirs!

[killbotfactory]

88. I find it funny you would lecture me on making false statements

My irony meter is about to explode.

I don't think the distinction is that great. There is a high probability that Dean's brother was murdered. Dean thinks his brother was murdered. I said he was murdered, but it's not certain. Big fucking deal.

[Mairead]

91. Yes, it is a BFD. Pity you don't see that.

All we know from that article is that he and his friend died. They might have died by accident--it's not Park Avenue over there even today. They might have been killed by accident. They might have been killed intentionally. Or they might have died separately, in different ways. We don't know. It's Really Important that we don't know. That ignorance is, yes, a genuine Big Fscking Deal. So your flat declaration was 100% unsupported, and your 'probably' is 90% unsupported. We don't know what the probability is, and that Dr Dean thinks it's high cuts no ice, because he doesn't know either. Of course 'murdered by the Commies' sounds much more dramatic and poignant (those rotten Commies!) than 'became sick and died', 'wasn't watching where he was going, fell into a river, and drowned', 'was bitten by a poisonous snake and died', 'was blown up by a Green Beret booby trap', 'insulted a local woman and was killed by her outraged relatives' or something else, but the fact of the matter is that we don't know anything more than that he died. The article doesn't even say he was in Commie custody at the time of his death (though it seems to imply he wasn't).

So please, don't try to con us or guilt-trip us or anything else--you haven't the wherewithal.

[killbotfactory]

92. This is one of the most insane arguement I've been in...

There best theory is that he was he was captured and killed, and I would assume they know a bit more about it than you do or what they printed in the article.

I honestly don't know what you're going off about, unless your just pissed off that people rightfully took offense to you saying that Dean is a heartless bastard because he grew up rich and doesn't have the same political views as you, and is only using the story of his brother to get sympathy from people.

Here's a hint: If you don't want to come off like an asshole, don't mock other people's grief and make broad derogatory generalizations about other groups of people. Especially if you are doing so to promote the candidate of your choice.

If he’s more passionate about restraint than the other Democratic candidates, it’s partly because he has a personal reason for wanting to spare families the agony of body bags and MIA phone calls. Back in 1974, his younger brother Charlie, 24, was traveling through Laos, paddling with a friend down the Mekong River taking pictures, when the two were seized by the Communists and charged with being American spies. Months later, word came back that they had secretly been executed; the bodies have never been recovered.

link

to qualify for medical school admission. In 1975, tragedy struck when Howard’s younger brother, Charlie, was taken prisoner
in Laos and subsequently executed.

link

In 1974, Dean's 24-year-old brother Charlie went traveling down the Mekong River in Laos when he and a friend were captured and summarily executed as spies by some local guerrillas.

link

Happy now?

[JohnKleeb]

43. how they say it is

"hes too ugly" and dream to dream the impossible

51. I'll tell you exactly what happened

if only to clear up the misrepresentations.

"AS CLEVELAND MAYOR, KUCINICH’S FIGHT TO SAVE PUBLIC POWER
A Profile in Political Courage...and Vindication

Having been elected to Cleveland’s City Council at age 23, Dennis Kucinich was well-known to Cleveland voters when they chose him as their mayor in 1977 at the age of 31. He was elected mayor on a promise that he would not sell off or privatize the beloved and trusted city-owned power system, though Cleveland was deeply in debt.

Cleveland Magazine offered this summary: “Kucinich refused to yield to bankers who gave him a choice: Sell the Municipal Light System to the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co. or the city will go into default. The mayor said no.”

When Kucinich refused to sell Muny Light, the banks took the unprecedented step of refusing to roll over the city’s debt, as is customary. Instead, they pushed the city into default. It turned out the banks were thoroughly interlocked with the private utility, CEI, which would have acquired monopoly status by taking over Muny Light. Five of the six banks held almost 1.8 million shares of CEI stock; of the 11 directors of CEI, eight were also directors of four of the six banks involved.

By holding to his campaign promise and putting principle above politics, he lost his re-election bid and his political career was derailed. But today Kucinich stands vindicated for having confronted the Enron of his day, and for saving the municipal power company. “There is little
debate,” wrote Cleveland Magazine in May 1996, “over the value of Muny Light today. Now Cleveland Public Power, it is a proven asset to the city that between 1985 and 1995 saved its customers $195,148,520 over what they would have paid CEI.” He also preserved hundreds of union jobs.

When Kucinich re-launched his political career in the mid-1990s, it was on the strength of having saved public power. His campaign symbol was a light bulb. “Because he was right!” was his campaign slogan when he won his seat in the state senate in 1994. The slogan that sent him to Washington two years later was “Light Up Congress.”

In 1998, the Cleveland City Council issued a commendation to Dennis Kucinich for "having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the city's municipal electric system." "

https://www.kucinich.us

[keek]

64. I suppose that would work for FDR too

but would that make much sense?

[Duder]

45. Wow! If Kucinich's reaction...

...to a story about grieving for one's brother is the same as some of his supporters I sure as hell would never vote for him.

Peace ~

[JohnKleeb]

46. it wouldnt be

All of his supporters did not react like jerks. I expressed sorrow if you didnt notice. I am not sure what Dennis thinks of Dean they supposely had much in common but I think Dennis can connect best with Dick Gephardt although hes not as liberal. They are both the workers choice and honestly I think Kucinich has done better for the worker. Kucinich would not be insensitive again its a shame really about his brother Dean's.

[Duder]

55. I qualified by saying "some" supporters

Most probably don't engage in cheap character assassinations based on a human interest story, but alas, I guess it tis the season. I don't remember any accusations of manipulation when the story of the soldier's widow giving DK a flag as perhaps being his reason for the flag burning vote. DK might be more aligned with Gep having worked together in the house and on some labor issues but my guess is like Nader he'd lean towards Dean, which is hardly an endorsement for the "corporatist" charge being slung around since Nader has expressed the most support for DK's positions while also mentioning Dean. Certainly on Iraq and in attacking the Bush administration Dean and DK are more closely aligned. My own opinion is that DK is the idealistic candidate whereas Dean is the pragmatic choice and there's good reasons to support both.

[Desertrose]

65. The story about DK and the flag

....was told by a person who was there (me)...in a thread...it was not an interview for nat'l release...it was simply by a DUer sharing her story and I was sharig my thoughts on the flag desecration ( which is not the same as burning) vote.

It was not a soldiers widow...it was a daughter giving Dennis her fathers flag...no mention of him being a veteran that I recall although it was hard to hear.

Peace
DR

[Larkspur]

89. I think this story shows why Dean won't use the military recklessly

Why is it wrong to still cry over a close sibling's untimely death? I still choke up at times when I think about my mother's death 5 years ago.

This story shows that Dean, while not a veteran himself, has a clear emotional reason not to recklessly use our troops, like Bush does.