Support Lieberman, Lose the Green Vote

[liberalmike27]

I voted Green last election. I know enough about it that I wouldn't have if it had been close, but that isn't my point. My point is, I hate Lieberman. Of all the Democratic candidates, Lieberman is the one guy that will cause me to vote Green under any circumstances, close or not. He is the only one that is actually getting booed, frequently, at almost every debate he has attended. People see that he is a DINO, Democrat in name only. We have had enough centrism, what we need is to try and shift back to the left a bit, back to some reason. So when you go into the booth, and you decide to pick a candidate, you should know that a lot of people feel like I do. If you pick Lieberman, and he gets the Democratic nod, you will lose a large portion of your voters, who see very little difference between him and Bush. Things like this matter, and I know some might be offended by this, but it is a fact. I like Howard Dean, but I could make myself vote in the general election for any of them, except for Lieberman. I just don't care for the guy, his stances, or that whiny little voice that he seems to painfully escape his lips. He wouldn't even stand up for hisself in 2000, sure count their illegal votes, and don't count ours. He will be the guy to give the greens votes, and sell the election to Bush again. Think about that.

[molly]

1. I don't think you need to worry - he won't be getting

the nomination. What "stances" don't you like about Lieberman - can you be more specific?

[Doomsayer13]

2. Lieberman will not win the nomination

At this point, he's not even seen as a major contender. The top tier candidates are Gephardt, Kerry, and Dean. What I'm weary about is whether Greens will support any of those candidates. I highly doubt it, even if the anti-war Dean is nominated or the liberal Kerry or the pro-union Gephardt I think that the Greens will launch a full fledged campaign against any of them.

[FlashHarry]

3. Man, I'm sick of the Green/Dem wars! Vote your conscience!

But know this: If you are progressive and vote for a third party candidate (or don't vote at all), you are denying a vote for the Democratic nominee––which is a vote against Bush. If you think your vote doesn't count, just remember Florida '00.

A quick recap: Selection '00 wasn't Nader's fault entirely. With 8 years of unparallelled peace and prosperity under his belt, Gore should never have let it get that close. Plus, had 90,000 minority Dems not been stricken from the voter rolls, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. BUT, had only a few of the Greens who voted Nader in Florida in '00 voted Dem instead, this whole thing would be moot. There you have it: a 'perfect storm' of squandered opportunities, hubris and skullduggery.

[jiacinto]

4. Lieberman isn't a DINO

That's a lie that has been spread here at DU unfairly. But don't worry, for a variety of reasons, Lieberman isn't going to be the nominee.

But if it comes to down to Bush v Lieberman I am not going to give W a 2nd term. I would not be happy with the choice, but I have seen what Bush can do. And frankly, as the last few years have shown, there is a big difference between the parties.

[Bolo Boffin]

5. Right on!

But if it comes to down to Bush v Lieberman I am not going to give W a 2nd term.

Amen to that one, jiacinto.

[sujan]

23. yea

Like they're going to vote Lieberman over Bush.

I agree he is no republican by any means and his voting record proves it. However, Lieberman's message resounds what Bush is going to say on National security, economy et al. So I dont see people flocking to vote for Lieberman. Plus Lieberman will have adversaries even on his side.

[NewJerseyDem]

6. Lieberman isn't that bad

On most domestic issues he is as liberal as many of the others. Still, he isn't my favorite candidate and it is very unlikely that he will win the nomination. However, because of people who will vote green if lieberman wins I think that it eliminates the idea that he is the most electable of the candidates. There will be many people who will either vote for the green party or not vote at all. I still think that Lieberman is 100 times better than Bush.

[poskonig]

7. We should support Lieberman

IF he were the nominee. Though I cannot blame those who jump ship out of good conscience, people must understand the consequences of putting Bush back in office.

[dolstein]

8. Sorry, but why the hell should I listen to you????

You didn't vote for Gore in 2000. Why the hell should I listen to you, as opposed to the 49 million voters who DID vote for Gore? It strikes me as patently absurd -- though hardly surprising for a Green -- that you'd demand that the Democratic Party give greater weight to YOUR opinion than to the millions of Democratic voters out there.

I don't believe for a minute that you'd vote for any Democrat who'd actually stand a chance against Bush.

Besides, in order to attract support from the 2.7% of the electorate that voted for Nader, the Democrats would end up losing a far greater number of independents and moderate Democrats.

[Kahuna]

11. Exactly! Imagine a Green telling us Dems who to nominate..

That's f'ing rich.

[jiacinto]

12. Good point

You make sense, Dolstein.

[davhill]

9. Lieberman is not the only centerist

Graham has the potential for drawing large numbers of crossover and independent votes. I cannot imagine a disaffected Republican, one who is upset about the war and the deficit, voting for any of the other potential democratic candidates. Though he was one of the few in congress with the sense and courage to vote against authorizing the war, he has an even stronger record on defense and homeland security than Lieberman. He has a strong environmental record and is right down the Democratic middle on most issues.

[Kahuna]

10. Whatever!

:eyes:

[LynneSin]

13. Who's supporting Lieberman?

Geez, I know I'm not and I know the guy gets like 3 votes everytime someone does "Who are you supporting for the democratic nomination" poll and those usually get about 200 voters here on DU

On a whole most of us do not support Lieberman and many of us are very actively out there campaigning for one of the other candidates. It seems that Dean, Kucinich and Clark all have strong movements with the DU.

HOWEVER......

There are many of us, including myself, who WILL vote for Lieberman should he get the nomination. This is true of all the other candidates out there running for the democratic nomination including a few dems who haven't announced yet.

But for some reason or another there are some folks who think my support of Lieberman IF he gets the nomination means I'm this big Joe Lieberman fan. That is not the case and I think I can sum up the thought process of the growing number of ABB DUers (Anyone But Bush). Right now, the democrat has the best change of getting Bush out of office. Many of us are not keen on some of the democratic candidates but looking at the big picture realize they are still a better choice than George W. Bush if that is our only option in November 2004. There are other issues out there other than the war, and I've always been able to count on the democratic party when it comes to choice, environment and judicial nominations: That isn't enough for me for who I support in the nomination process but a hell of alot better than Bush when November 2004 comes around.

So instead of these dumb statements about "supporting Lieberman" let's worry about that if and when Lieberman gets the nomination. These types of threads are nothing more than a way to help create flame wars at DU and division in our party. Let's enjoy the primary process today and worry about the nominee once he/she is picked.

[DrFunkenstein]

14. I Will Definitely Support Lieberman

Lieberman is a moderate conservative. Bush is a radical conservative. Try to have some perspective.

[election_2004]

15. i hate to break it to the ABB crowd....

But out of all of the six realistic candidates (Edwards, Gephardt, Kerry, Lieberman, Dean, Graham, and Kucinich), Lieberman would encounter the most opposition in a General Election matchup with Bush. And not just from those on the Far Left....many of us who consider ourselves Independents, moderates, or centrists are deeply offended by Lieberman's political whoring, and a Lieberman nomination by the Democratic Party would give us even less of a reason to vote Democratic than in previous elections.

The supposition that Lieberman is *The_Choice* of Independent and moderate voters is nothing but mythical propoganda perpetuated by the corporate media.

Why are we so offended by Lieberman, you may ask? Well in case you haven't been paying attention, he won't shut up about "morality," and his Big Government philosophies include federal attempts at censorship and continuation/expansion of a culturally monotheistic ideal in society. He also babbles about moving forward with "new ideas," yet a majority of the concepts he's proposed include recycled chunks of the 2000 Gore/Lieberman platform.

Name one other Democratic candidate who is taking those same extreme positions.

Sorry, but the Dems have to give us a better reason to vote for them other than "We're not Bush." And shoving Willie Tanner down our throats just won't do the trick.

[liberalpragmatist]

16. Personally, I'd have no problem voting for Lieberman

He's not my favorite candidate, but I find him FAR better than Bush and if he's the nominee, you bet I'm going to spend hours working my ass off to get democrats and progressives to vote for him.

That said, my biggest worry about a Lieberman candidacy is that he'd lose a large progressive vote. Many left-liberals would stay home or vote Green -- esp. if the nominee is Cynthia McKinney, it would become very possible for the Greens to double their vote share to 6% or higher -- 7, 8, 9%, possibly even 10%. That would cut deeply into the Democratic base and make it much more difficult to defeat Bush.

The best scenario for Lieberman in that situation would be to position himself in the center and make a major effort to attract center-right independents and moderate republicans in addition to the majority of democrats and a solid number of independents. He could define himself between the "extremes" of the left (Green) and the right (Bush), and MAYBE this could prove to be a winning formula.
I fear that it won't be the outcome, however, if he is the nominee. Instead, I worry that the massive defection would just make us lose.

[LynneSin]

19. Wow, am I Rip Van Winkle and it's now November 2004?

I mean geez, I see posts like this and I'm thinking "Election Day is real soon cause everyone is acting like LIeberman has the nomination already"

Worry about Lieberman when he gets the nomination.

It's August 2003 and we've got 9 and at least one more soon to consider for the nomination. Here's really REALLY novel idea - let's get out there and work our butts off to get the candidate of our choice nominated. Once again; hwoever, some folks prefer starting non-productive threads like this worrying about hypothetical situations and how the greens will deal with it.

I've never been a fan of Joe Lieberman and the best way I've found to deal with it is to go out there and work my tailbone off for the candidate of my choice who I think can win the big race and I know will do good for our country (My candidate is Howard Dean). But I use the "Anyone But Bush" avatar because when it's November 2004, I will have no qualms whatsoever of pulling the straight "D" level when I go to vote. If you can give me one reason, just one of why I should do anything to help Bush have another 4 years in the White House I might consider making a vote that'll help him win. But I highly doubt that anyone could find a reason.

This negativity is crap and I will call it crap everytime I see it!

[election_2004]

22. It's not just the Greens...

People on the Far Left are not the only ones who oppose the idea of Lieberman in office.

There are many Libertarians and Independents who shudder at the thought of him as Leader of the Free (HA!) World, as well.

[genius]

17. The Greens prefer Lieberman to Dean

Lieberman is more pro-environmental. I've been working with a lot of Greens on the Kucinich campaign and last place on their list is Dean because of his anti-environmental stances.

[western mass]

18. Green-haters don't get it

Many, I dare say most, Green voters are democrats. They are progressive democrats who'd rather see 4 more years of Bush than 20 more years of the conservative, DLC-led strangehold that's destroyed the Dem party as a force of political opposition and liberal values.

Characterizing someone like Lieberman as a "centrist" is laughable...he's a conservative. If he's the forseeable future of the Dem Party, then we've already lost, and the Party needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the bottom up.

That said, more progressives need to get off their asses and start getting involved, because protest votes are a good start but they aren't enough.

[LynneSin]

20. No, you don't get it

Maybe we give Bush another 4 years in the White House.

And how much longer do you think the democrats can hold out on filibustering those neo-con federalist judges? I'm checking out the ages of these judges and they're like 45-50 years in age. That means with lifetime appoints they'll be around for at least a decade or 2 after Bush is finally out of office. And everytime the democrats try to do something decent for our country (aka Campaign Finance Reform) the neo-cons will take it to their judges put in place by Bush for the sole purpose of overturning laws they don't like.

Lieberman has always supported the filibusters, the environment and choice to name a few things. He will never be a choice for me the in the primaries, but I'll smile proudly if he gets the nomination and I have to decide between him or Bush.

However, maybe IF you open your eyes just a little bit you might notice Joe hasn't been doing well in the primaries and is not getting the financial support that other top-tier candidates are getting. But I suppose it's probably easier just to be critical about Lieberman now instead of going out there and supporting a candidate who folks would think would do the democratic party well.

And BTW, here's another clue. Do you assume all us democrats wouldn't consider the Green Party for other offices OTHER than president. To be honest, thanks to the Greens I see here at DU, I'd ALMOST rather vote for a dead boiled rat than to vote Green; however, greatfully I have real life friends who recognize that my vote for a democrat doesn't mean I wouldn't consider Green for other parties. Shame on you for chasing US away, to be honest Greens need us more than we need them!

[election_2004]

21. Lieberman in the primaries

I don't think it's entirely realistic to assume that the DLC or other pro-Lieberman camps won't try to hijack the primaries in favor of Lieberman. THAT'S why there's still the need to worry about it.

I agree about getting out there and promoting other candidates...unfortunately, I don't have a first-choice at this point in time. So I do my best to talk about the other electable Democratic candidates in the race while explaining why Lieberman is not a rational option.

[LynneSin]

24. WOW Joe Lieberman is the only candidate running from the DLC?

Has someone informed DLC members and primary candidates John Kerry, John Edwards and Bob Graham that they've been kicked out of the DLC? This is a MAJOR MAJOR news story, if you'd like I'll call AP, NYTimes, WP, CNN and all the major outlets and tell them to start on this story. I mean, geez, I can't believe the DLC just booted out 3 major members of their organization - THIS IS A BIG BIG STORY

:eyes:

:tinfoilhat: - we all need to loosen this up some folks!

On an edit note we really need to look at the big pictures and stop spreading the "little rumor" crap like this DLC/Lieberman out to dominate the world stuff. There are 4 major candidates from the DLC but everytime someone post about this whole Lieberman/DLC will take over the world will get this type of sarcasm from me. He is NOT the only candidate running for president from the DLC. People need to grab ahold of this fact

[western mass]

26. them too...

I wouldn't vote for Edwards & Graham either. Happy? :)

Kerry is my senator, mostly a good liberal and I hold onto the hope that he can be made to see the light of reason.

I'm one of many progressive, sometime-Green-voting dems supporting Dean. Happier? :)

[LynneSin]

27. If you're gonna slap the DLC - the slap them all

Personally there is nothing anyone can say that would make the think that voting for someone other than lieberman in the november 2004 election would be worth having another 4 years of Bush.

Folks say Lieberman is "Bush-Lite", if he was wouldn't he be SUPPORTING the judicial nominees and not the democratic filibuster? I could probably list a dozen other ways he is NOT Bush-lite. For that, I'll deal with the lieberman nominatin when he gets it. But he hasn't had it yet so let's work to get a better candidate on the ticket.

Folks like Bush may come and go, but their LIFETIME appointments to the judicial bench will be there for decades afterward ensuring that if democrats get control those judges will just overturn laws they don't like.

[election_2004]

28. I never said Lieberman is the only DLC candidate

But he's the favorite of Al From, who basically has the DLC wrapped around his finger.

But once DLC activists finally begin publicly slapping Lieberman on the wrist for his negative misportrayals of other Democratic candidates, then I'll be willing to reevaluate my opinion.

[burr]

25. you're a real Jay Leno!!!

[GOPBasher]

29. If he gets the nomination, he gets my vote.

However, I won't be supporting him in the primaries. Plus, he has no chance of winning, so I don't know why everyone is so worried about it.