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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:10 PM
Original message
Another rant on Kucinich, truth, and the future...step right up...
Why can't you see that Dean is for sale. I don't care if you find some Op/Ed piece in Arizona to support your own point of view, the truth remains: Kucinich is the only candidate actually saying things that make sense, things that America needs. He's out of the "game", there is no need to continue war.

Regardless of whose antiwar stance is larger or better, Kucinich or Dean, and regardless of Dean getting the conservative biased media's support, can't you see that Kucinich's campaign and presidency will be the best: Universal healthcare (like Canada, France, Britain, Germany, everyone else!), free College (!), Dept of Peace (ever been the victim of domestic violence?). For God's sake don't these things mean anything to the constituents? Aren't these important to you?

Kucinich will make a Department of Peace, just over a year from now, and you will love it. NAFTA will be done with, and monopolies put on notice. Dean's "small businesses" will be selling shoes made in America for a price that is reasonable for the wage of he who made it, not living on subsidies that the govt provides so he can keep political face.

Don't you people reailze that it is NOT that Kucinich can't be president because he can't beat Bush, but that what will prevent Kucinich from being president is YOU! The Democratic rank and file.

You choose who will represent us. And on election day a year from now I'm voting Dem regardless. At that point, I'll happily put a Dean sticker on my car, just partially over my Kucinich sticker. But for now, I want the candidate who most contrasts with the problems of this country: ignorance, violence, greed. Kucinich is that man.

Please read some of his personal stories (particularly the Cleveland debacle) at http://www.kucinich.us . You'll only like him more.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. again dont bring up Dean or you are gonna get flamed like hell
Just a warning. I agree with you on DK but dont pick fights with people and shit. Please, then they are gonna be nasty and shit to us, and I am in no mood to lose my temper.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It all comes down to $. Sad, but true. nt
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. All about green, a pity isnt it
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 11:04 PM by JohnKleeb
Ive been told that by my grandfather and it holds true, but I wish it werent so, thats why I am idealistic. BTW people idealism is NOT a bad thing at all. Now on green aka money, its sad. Look I will be sad if Kucinich doesnt win the primary but I also hope that the party returns to its progressive roots and a new future.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. But does it have to all come down to money?

Does it really have to? And if it all does come down to money, aren't we screwed no matter who our nominee is, since Bush* has gazillions to spend?

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Of course not
We cant let it be about green, why should we, true green does determine your place in society, but youre right DBDB on green because Bush has a lot of money really. We cant let it get to that really. I prefer the Kucinich vision of America, hence I am a Kucinich supporter. I cant let it be about green. "some men ask why and I ask why not" Shaw said that and I think RFK brought that up when he ran for president in 1968. To all those who deride DK as idealistic, I say well idealism is not bad first off and many including Bobby Kennedy were idealists. Kucinich brings up FDR a lot but he does bring up RFK kinda too, he brought up the ripple of hope, and he is such imo. You're right DBDB it shouldnt be about money.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. Bill Clinton's first campaign proved it's not ALL about money...
But there are amounts that are necessary to remain competitive.

You're not going to be competitive in applying for some jobs if you can't find the money to buy the right clothes...but you don't need to be the applicant with the most money.

I'm not sure Dennis has the money to be competitive, though.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thank you, John.
I'm not going to rise to the bait, but 'pick fights' is an excellent description for this post. The 1st sentence is particularly insulting, so expect a flame war to result... *sigh*
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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Oh I'm not being nasty but....
this is serious man. Let the obstacle be exposed:

Democrats who listen to the media.

Al Gore listened to the media and was way too soft on Bush and his positions, SUV's are everywhere because of the media, the media marched the country into war, and frankly I can't without intense skepticism support their 'liberal' recommendation for fixing this country. They're too biased.

I guess I see your point. The Kucinich campaign probably doesn't want me to openly challenge our fellow Democrats on their (unofficial) behalf. But hey, we are all Democrats here. Let us have real uninhibited discussion here. That is what this website is about.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You'll get all the unihibited discussion you want....
... with an opening line like that one---trust me.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. and will it actually help?
how many times can we go around and around these issues?

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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. AS many as it takes for you to take note of their
significance.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. You think I dont know that
Talk about Kucinich and why he is in fact the best. FUCKING media pisses me off too.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. I don't have a problem with you supporting Kucinich...
I DO have a problem with your assertion that Dean is for sale. I'm not supporting Kucinich because I don't feel he can bring his plans (some of which I'm not sold on anyway) to fruition. He's not pragmatic enough for me. It's only my opinion, but I really DON'T feel that he's the best man for the job...I'm not shying away because I feel he's unelectable, I don't agree with him.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. It isn't Dean vs. Kucinich
It is Kucinich vs current public perception of him.

Attack Dean all you want, that does nothing to boost Kucinich. If you really want to help your candidate, tell him he needs to alter how he is campaigning because it isn't working. And accept, just truly honestly accept that maybe Kucinich's 'message' isn't one that resonates.

I hear stuff like 'Department of Peace' I think cheap propaganda. Free college? Bullshit populism. Putting monopolies on notice? The president isn't a sheriff of a small town and the next president will have to work with a Congress that is well oiled by those monopolies. Universal healthcare? I support 100%. It won't get through congress as Kucinich proposes.

Idealism always fails in the light of reality. Idealism is necessary so we can guide our actions to something better, but our actions must be practical and substantive.
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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. You are the Devils advocate

What is resonation with the public? Carrying a baseball bat around stage while you rant about vague change.

I know you will never agree with me (just 'cause). But that's okay. Maybe your definition of resonance is media agreeability. The least change in Washington. And I'll tell you something personal if you're interested. Some of why I support Kucinich on a personal level. But you have to email me: MrSoundAndVision@yahoo.com
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. OK...how would you change it?
How would you change Dennis' campaign.....l mean, what would you do differently???

would you change his message itself or would you change the presentation?

Dept of Peace is cheap propaganda? It was presented as a house bill 2 months before 9/11 to the day.....do you think we don't need it? look at what is happening in neighborhoods...cities....you call that cheap propaganda? What would you do?

free college...bullshit populism...why? and again what message would you give and how would you present it??

Putting monopolies on notice...isn't it time that someone stood up to them instead of cozying up to them??

"Idealism always fails in the light of realism"......REALLY?? not in my world...idealism is the only practical & substantive way to go anymore...time is running out to reverse our direction.....we can't affors to not do all we can do to make this world better...what do we have to lose at this point?

Again...I would like to hear how you feel Dennis should run his campaign...


Peace
DR
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. My Proposals for Dennis
You can't change his message as he is the message.

1. Create a narrative that is appealing to the media. For Kucinich I would go with a Cinderella motif or The Ugly Duckling, the guy who deserves to make it, who has the odds (quite literally in this case) stacked against him but in the end is the belle of the ball or the beautiful swan (i.e. truly the one that people do want). Work it into his stump speeches that he KNOWS he isn't the one anyone was expecting to go to the ball. He can create applause lines around the motif that fits his message. When he talks about the investment into renewable energy to help third world countries bypass the reliance upon petroleum fuels, he can relate that back to how his campaign has been helped to bypass the reliance upon the rich fat cats by the democratization of his fundraising.

2. He needs to get himself on talk shows, places where he isn't talking about policy. Kucinich supporters believe it is his policies that are his bread and butter and strong suit, but time and time again, it has been proven that people vote for leaders first, policy second. When McCain was suffering from lack of media attention, he created the Straight Talk Express. He became a near constant on The Daily Show for the amount of access he allowed. Kucinich could do the same.

3. He needs to plot a winning strategy. Much like chess (okay, I KNOW Kucinich supporters really don't believe politics is a game, but bear with me, I do believe it is a game and approach it as such) he needs to not only know what he wants to accomplish but how he is going to get there with the resources he has. Sometimes, in chess, you have to realize you don't have the resources to checkmate your opponent, so you have to play for the draw. He needs to be fully aware that he is quickly approaching a time that he either needs to make some amazing moves in a short period of time, play for the draw, or resign. If he resigns, we all lose. His overall agenda is a positive one and needs to be incorporated into the next administration. Unfortunately, if he attempts for the checkmate with too few resources he will be knocked out of the game, losing all control.

I'm not in the headquarters, I don't know what their resources truly are, but I do know one of the first things they need to do is assess what they truly have control over, what they can leverage for their cause. If it means he has to perform magic tricks on Letterman, then damnit, that is what he needs to do.

4. He needs hooks. Hooks are the little tags the media can assign to him. If a campaign doesn't provide them, the media will or the opposition will. Shrill, idealistic, etc. are not good hooks. I am willing to bet strong money that if you ask Americans to choose a trait they want from their candidate Idealist or Pragmatist, they will choose pragmatist overwhelmingly. Hell, accordign to William James, Americans defined and developed the whole concept of pragmatism. The things about hooks is they have to match up with the person. If he wants to be known as a fighter, he really needs to fight. He will need to become a bit abusive and belligerent. If he wants to be known as tough, he will need to make his campaign tough, go for the bulletproofing. They need to write down five adjectives, one word adjectives, they want attributed to Kucinich that the public reacts positively too when attributed to a leader. They can be silly, like Tall or Lean. Look at Dean, he has given himself the hooks of being Angry and Frugal. People think of him as Passionate because of his speeches and off-the-cuff remarks that get him in trouble at times and Motivated by interviewing with everyone he can (e.g. see Will Pitt's interview with Dean, and the interview Dean did while running through the airport). Some traits, hooks, that Kucinich could grab are Diligent for his work as Mayor, Progressive for his legislative history and policy proposals, Unstoppable if he picks up one or two issus and becomes a bulldog with them telling people that no matter what, he is going to fight for these issues whether President or not, and Compassionate for his dogged loyalty to the American worker.

So, first things first, he needs to get the meme out that people are already supporting his ideas as they are mouthed by the other candidates. Then he needs to set up his own Kucinich Rapid Response Team to hammer the media whenever they a) neglect him or b) fail to state his message correctly. The media is a tool and it must be treated as such. It is also like a blind dumb dog that needs to be lead to the juicy morsels. If the Kucinich campaign doesn't have media handlers who are getting the media to latch onto Kucinich press releases when they don't mention Kerry or Dean, then it needs to get some, pronto.

Politics is about presentation of a complete package. These also means he needs a makeover. A better haircut and better suits and shirts. Decry this all you want a shallow, but it makes a difference. Much like my suggestions for Dean revolve around dressing better and getting a sense of humor. For Kucinich he needs to become President now. Dress the part, speak the part, be the part. Instead of clamoring for attention, he needs to act like the attention is already on him and then get his supporters to chide the press for missing out on the story of the day.

I've never ran a campaign, I've only studied campaigns. I feel confident that I know what works and what doesn't. What Kucinich is doing is not working. Delude yourselves all you want that a sudden groundswell of support for Dennis is going to manifest, but that won't help your candidate one iota. Dennis needs to be thinking about the endgame. What is truly more important, winning the Presidency or advocating his core issues? I would say the latter is, so he needs to array his resources so his core issues are protected in the next administration. That means focusing on regions and states where he can pick up enough delegates to wield some floor power. If that means skipping several primaries to save money for later ones, so be it. That is fine and dandy if you know what you are really trying to accomplish. Otherwise, he will burn out after the Arizona/SC primaries and will be just a footnote in the race.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Wow...thank you very much LuminousX...
I appreciate the time and information you put into this post...

I was hoping you'd say that as he is the message.that can't really be changed...but there are better ways to present.... You've made some very good points here.....perhaps the campaign will take note... :)

Thanks again....I agree with much that you said....

Peace
DR
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rdfi-defi Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. strait foward and to the point.
the chess metaphore was a good one when refering to strategy of all kinds. i can't say i agree with the whole thing, you can't do anything with dk's hair, but thank you for the input and honesty
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. what you say makes sense, but it doesn't matter
check out this thread I posted yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=611493

It doesn't matter how DK changes his message, the media isn't going to give him a fair shake no matter what. His ideas would be harmful to our system of corporate governance, so it has been decided that his campaign is DOA. The only way DK could change and have the media cover him is if he all of a sudden became Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, or Lieberman (not to bash them, but they are mainstream and therefore acceptable).
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. So by your logic, DK doesn't stand a chance
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. not if we rely on conventional means
What I'm saying is that the 'normal' way one goes about a campaign is hopeless. Granted the other way will be difficult and could quite possibly be tilting and windmills. But I have no intention of giving in to manipulation and 'condoning' this media control of our choices, whether we win or not. Humanity is on the brink here, and if we are to bring ourselves back we must first realize what the FULL situation is, and act accordingly. Acceding to propaganda will only knock us over the edge, to turn away we have to do exactly the opposite of what is wished of us.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. You have less than a hundred days
What bold moves can we expect from DK to circumvent the press?

Your words seem to imply that DK is the only person that can save us from an impending crisis. Is that true? Are you really relying upon messianic verbage to promote your candidate?

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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. i don't think of kucinich as a messiah
I just think he is the only CANDIDATE (there are many who are taking approriate actions without running) that recognizes the problems an intends to take approraite actions.

Honestly I don't know what we can expect from DK in the next 100 days to circumvent the press, I don't work on his campaign. Quite frankly I don't think it matters. I don't think DK will win, because I don't think he'll be allowed the chance to win. Regardless though, I will continue to support him as the only candidate that is aware or not bought out, and will also prepare for future inevitabilities.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. I never question your support
That is what this is about. You need to be an advocate for your candidate. You need to make sure everyone is aware of your candidate's positions whenever possible. But you also have to be aware of the political tides and help your candidate protect the issues that are important to him/her. Vote for Kucinich in the primaries. DK will need as many possible delegates by the time of the convention so he can get key speaking time on the dias, so he can cut some deals (do DK's supporters believe in cutting deals or is compromise a bad word?) and either get himself in the administration or get assurance that the next President will help pass and sign specific legislation DK sponsors.

Spending time saying 'the media is afraid of him' won't guilt the media into giving him more coverage. It makes him look a little Perot-esque and unstable, especially when he is getting a fair amount of press, he just isn't capitalizing upon it.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. Grassroots campaigns are always harmful to corporate governance...
By that logic, Dean's campaign is seriously harmful as well, but his level of support has forced media coverage.
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. do you think Clark's campaign is harmful to corporate governance?
Clark had quite a bit of grassroots support, but I don't think anyone believes for a second that he'll be a threat to corporate governance.

And what part of Dean's platform would pose any kind of threat to corporations? Is it the HMO Universal Health Care?
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. If he actually was getting 92% of his money from <$2,000 donors, yes...
But he's not...and his campaign is trumpeting the "big" names that have jumped on his bandwagon.

Any campaign that brings more people into the process with a feeling of empowerment spells danger for the corporate powers-that-be.

This part of the health plan does address corporations...and tying it to corporate tax deductions is not bad at all:

"Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities."


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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. corporate health care
the problem with corporate health care isn't just the companies that don't provide.

the biggest problem is that profit motives are behind decisions and not the person's health. are you aware that the policy of many insurance companies is to deny EVERY claim the first time it comes through in the hopes that the insured will just give up and pay it themselves. And what about companies that will cover Viagra but not birth control? It's these problems that need to be addressed that are ignored by all the mainstream candidates in their plans.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. Here's how I would change it, for one....
Talk about the incremental steps toward a Dept. of Peace.

Talk about the specific fat in the Pentagon budget.

Talk about the incremental steps toward free college.

Quit whining about the media...and get local supporters to speak intelligently and forthrightly to their local media.

Also, drop the "holier than thou" message attacking other candidates...it makes DK look like a fundamentalist from the left wing. The majority of Democrats oppose fundamentalism of any stripe.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. I agree with this:
It isn't Dean vs. Kucinich. It is Kucinich vs current public perception of him.

And some of your ideas in the thread further down are sound.

I'd like to focus on changing current public perception. I don't think we're going to accomplish that by battling people whose minds are already made up and who are already campaigning for other candidates. Let's focus on our guy. What's the best way to get some good ideas to the campaign?
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dean is not for sale. We bought him.
We paid our $71. He's ours, and we're not giving him back. Sorry.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Good one!
I like that. If a candidate is for sale, is it better for him to be purchased by the people at large or Enron?
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Somebody has to be the special interest.
It might as well be me.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. You are right about Kucinich and Dean
Except I would have a hard time ever voting for Dean. If Dean gets the nomination, I'll write in "Al Gore."
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Just curious, but how is that not a throwaway vote?
I mean, you're not seriously suggesting that Gore will win as a write-in candidate, are you? That understood, you'd really rather see Bush win re-election than vote for the Dem candidate?
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Dean's as bad as or worse than Bush. I want to vote for a Democrat
That eliminates voting for Dean.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. That answered my question. You'd rather see Bush win than the
Democratic nominee if Dean is that nominee. Hardly a "let's get that bastard out of the White House" attitude, but it IS your vote..
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. I am very puzzled
That someone really thinks the entire Democratic party is so stupid as to nominate someone who is more conservative, more dangerous, more villainous than Bush.

Thanks for the faith in the party.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
33. One of my questions about a Kucinich presidency...
Just how does he plan to get a Dept. of Peace and free college and reduction in defense spending through congress??

He wouldn't personally control any of those issues.

He is making HUGE promises that would be next to impossible to keep. It doesn't do a lot of good for the President to be saying I want free college for everyone if it just isn't going to happen.

Bill Clinton promised universal healthcare, but the congress killed it...and that was much less out on the edge than free college and cutting the defense budget.
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peaceandjustice Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
41. Will you still love the Department of Peace when Paul Wolfowitz heads it?
Dennis Kucinich, if elected, will only be one administration. He has eight years at the most, and he wants to spend at least one of them building an office building and filling it with computers, copier machines, and bureaucrats. So what happens if after eight years or maybe even four a right-wing extremist is elected again? All those resources, all that money Congress appropriates for the Dept. of Peace will be used to pursue whatever the right-wing defines as "peace".

The government already has the mechanisms with AID, the Dept. of State, the Peace Corps, etc. to pursue a more peaceful world. The Dept. of Peace is a vanity project and a gimmick. And every dollar spent on restructuring the federal govt., regardless if it comes out of Pentagon cuts, is money not being spent on truly worthwhile goals.

I'm glad to see reducing domestic violence is a priority for you. Howard Dean did it. The child abuse rate in Vermont under his governorship declined by over 30%. It's one of the reasons I'm currently supporting him.

Having said that, I do have my doubts about Dean, and he may yet lose my support.
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