Have Kerry's attacks on Dean caused anyone to change their mind?

[ludwigb]

For myself, the moral and intellectual dishonesty of Kerry's attacks (the most recent being this confederate flag fiasco) have downgraded him from my 3rd choice to my 2nd to last choice among the serious canidates (only Liebermann is a worse canidate IMO), and I'm tempted to even put Holy Joe ahead of him. I'm of the opinion that whatever Kerry's strengths are, his attacks convey the impression that he lacks the tact and instinct necessary to win--he is too beholden to advisors and too prepared to hop on bandwagons before thinking things through. For better or worse, Kerry in campaign mode is the Kerry that voters will be exposed to, and this is not a good sign for Democrats. Worse, the ambivalence of his Iraq stance and the dishonesty of his attacks suggest that he is unprincipled. This goes for his attacks on Bush as well as on Dean--for example, suggesting that Bush promised to build an international coalition is pure misinformation and this kind of campaign is going to win the hostility of the media. Granted, these are more emotive criticisms than substantive ones, but these issues matter to voters and they weakened Gore in 2000. I tend to feel that Kerry has had his chance (several months as the front-runner) at it is time to start looking at canidates with a more demonstrated ability to appeal to swing voters. Even the folks over at TNR, who seemed resigned to supporting him in order to stop Dean months ago, can hardly find any good things to say about him.

I wonder if my perception has more to do with my loyalty to Dean and Edwards than an honest look at these media battles. I'm willing to concede that some of Kerry's attacks on Dean are reasonable (e.g. middle class taxes, though Kerry should not have said Dean wants to RAISE taxes). I wonder if others have had the opposite reaction. Does anyone feel that Kerry has exposed Dean's weaknesses and that now they know better than to vote Dean?

[SaveElmer]

1. I agree

He has gone from someone I could vote for, to someone I will not vote for under any circumstances.

[quinnox]

2. The last sentence is where I am

"Does anyone feel that Kerry has exposed Dean's weaknesses and that they know better than to vote Dean?"

Also, it wasn't just Kerry who condemned Dean's remarks, it was Clark, Gephardt, Sharpton and Edwards too.

[RogueTrooper]

3. Must be doing something right, then

[sandnsea]

29. Clark, Gephardt, Sharpton and Edwards too.

Wanted to pull that out. It's wrong to pose this as Kerry attacking Dean. That isn't what happened at all.

[displacedtexan]

4. I want to believe...

that I live i a country that readily elects a Howard or a Dennis, but I don't believe that I do.

that the sentiments of the popular vote crowd prevail, but I know that the party machine actually 'elects' a candidate in the long run.

that idealism can beat * and his $200 million war chest, but I know that's naive.

that there is a dem candidate who has no flaws at all and can appeal to every American citizen, but that's pure fantasy.

I do believe that the candidate most likely (in the estimation of the DNC) to beat * will get the nomination, the $ and the personpower support. I don't think that it will be Howard or Dennis, though.

[HazMat]

5. so essentially

what you want is for the most electable candidate Kerry to move aside for one of the least electable candidates Dean ?

What you want is for a liberal heavyweight to move aside for a center-right lightweight ?

Do you remember what happened to the last presidential candidate who promised to raise taxes "for the greater good", like Dean is promising to do ? He carried one state.

Do you remember what happened to the last presidential candiate to run on an anti-war platform ? He carried one state.

Just remember, we are telling you guys from now that it doesn't have to end in disaster. Nominating Dean would be electoral suicide. If Dean gets this nomination and goes down hard you people will be held accountable. I'm so SICK of faux liberals hijacking our elections. It's why we have no power in this country. The latte liberals push through unelectable candidates, we real liberals and Democrats suffer the landslides, and a few years later the latte liberals are Rockefeller Republicans.

[killbotfactory]

6. Kerry is too liberal to be elected

An elitist gay-marriage approving ivory-tower New England gun-grabbing fair-weather-hawkish liberal who wants to raise taxes and will alienate the south and lose all but 49 states.

[HazMat]

10. Dean is too unelectable to be elected.

Dean is a smalltime governor from the small rural white state (second smallest state in the union, most major cities have a larger population than Vermont), zero foreign policy experience, perception of being anti-American (dodged draft and went skiiing, "hamas are soldiers", "Saddam is gone - I guess it's a good thing"), anti-war, anti-minority, unstable, overemotional, loudmouth, short (comes across as the little powerlesss angry man -- very unpresidential).

On the other hand there's Kerry - veteran, statesman, tall, presidential, smart, thoughtful... projects strength.. gravitas... they type of qualified, heavyweight candidate who can win. Kerry is just "bigger" than Dean.. issues and ideology aside. Dean is not someone who could be elected... too much of a lightweight.

[killbotfactory]

14. Kerry: funny-looking egotistical ultra-liberal waffling opportunist

But he was in 'Nam. That makes him immune from right wing attacks somehow.

[blm]

61. Who would you want in a foxhole with you?

Like it or not, that's how many vote.

[Endangered Specie]

79. but, who would you want

performing surgery on you?,

[blm]

84. Trust the guy who WON'T get you shot in the first place.

btw...the MASH units are stationed much further away from the foxholes.

[Mass_Liberal]

60. Hamas are soldiers

there are soldiers doing evil deeds, but they are still soldiers. That is one of the best things Dean has said. Without a doubt they should be given the same liberties that soldiers of any other country would get.


edit for rudeness (sorry, got caught up in the heat of the moment)

[joeybee12]

8. Sorry, Kerry is now totally unelectable

He was my top choice, and he had now nose-dived in my opinion.

He offers no ideas, just shrill, attacks that reflect more on him than on the person he is attacking.

[ClintonTyree]

9. Real Liberals and Democrats.................

don't unquestionably vote for the oppositions proposals. Can you honestly say that about Kerry? He's supported everything Bush has thrown at him about this war. Oh, except until Dean started to make some noise about the war, then Kerry decided he wasn't a gelding afterall and found that he still had a pair. Get real.

[Name removed]

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[readmylips]

7. Dean must be doing something Right!

The dems claim to be the party of all the people. I agree, Dean should be going for the Conf.Flag voters. Afterall, Clark is a republican and is being accepted by all democrats. The bottom line is to kick little man bushies ass out of power. I also want Dean to go for the vote of those country/western singers. They could write some good songs against little man bushie.

The democrats should not be excluding any voter.

[teryang]

11. I think his attacks on Dean combined with his apparent

...egotism have served Kerry very poorly. His delivery more than anything else is too bombastic. He should try a lower key approach.

My impression after the last debate concerning Kerry was this guy is really full of himself. Whether he thinks he is the best candidate is irrelevant. It's what the audience thinks.

Large men with deep voices need to avoid the impression that they are dominant and ready to attack. They need to speak quietly and in a measured and reserved way to obtain respect. Reverand Sharpton's bombast works, there are probably several reasons for this which I don't have time to evaluate. I'm almost embarrassed when Kerry raises his voice in criticism of Dean, embarassed for Kerry that is. He could demonstrate that his tax ideas are better without trying to make Dean appear to be stupid.

Kerry's finest moment at the debate was when he joked in a self deprecating manner to a criticism and said, wait to see Kerry gone wild or words to that effect.

[tsipple]

12. Well Said

I'll add one more thing. More than a dozen U.S. soldiers died in Iraq today. Howard Dean (and Dennis Kucinich, Carol Moseley-Braun, and Al Sharpton) tried to stop it...

...And if I can't say something nice here, I best not say it. :-( :-(

This is a life-or-death election. I'm voting for the doctor.

[polpilot]

13. Kerry is unprincipled and desperate. A very bad combination. His

behavior towards Dean of recent has been child-like and characteristic of juvenile jealousy.

Dean '04...America's principled leader.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[AP]

15. I'm not a big Kerry supporter, but, honestly, I think Dean vs Kerry helps

Kerry.

It gives him a little spark and color he desperately needs. It makes him look like he really wants to be president, which is something any rich guy who has a lot of pictures out there of him recreating needs to show.

I think all the criticims of Dean are legitimate too.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

76. Thank You AP, your criticism is valued and welcome

and may your good sense spread amongst the Kerry haters. BTW Edwards is now my No. 2 guy.

[AP]

91. Just for perspective...

Kerry was the guy I wished Democrats ran in 2000. And he was at the top of my list until late 2002.

He's in my top 3, and I think he could definitely beat Bush. I don't think he'd have as easy a time of it as Clark or Edwards, but he could definitely do it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

101. NE liberal label hard to counter

but Kerry has an exceptional resume to effectively do so. Also, if he can convince people he is as smart and presidential as Clinton, then he is as good as elected. Clinton was a hawk, Bush is a hawk. The Americans want a hawk, but a smart one, not the dangerous idiot we have now.

[DrFunkenstein]

18. Did Your #2 Choice NOT Condemn Dean's Ill-Thought Remarks?

What bandwagon has Kerry hopped on? The "Bush-lite Cockroaches vs. Outsider Democratic Wing" bandwagon of cheap emotional attacks?

Kerry is a campaign brawler and I somehow doubt that impression will think he will be ineffective against Bush.

If Kerry is ambivalent about Iraq, then so is Howard Dean. Both supported the ends of disarmament, but through very different means. Big ambivalence there.

Prostate surgery took Guiliani out of a campaign once, but Kerry hammered on, albeit at half the steam. He seemed unfocused. But compare the first debates to the last debates. Kerry is back and swinging.

I'm not sure why you think TNR supported Kerry. If anyone, they stood behind Lieberman, Edwards, and Clark (until he actually ran, apparently). Kerry is far too liberal for their taste.

Kerry's criticism of Dean is not that Dean is a racist, but that he's a fool that can't control his mouth. I don't think that is going to change the minds of the hardcore Deanies at DU, but I think that ALL the candidates that condemned Dean's remarks (which is literally ALL the candidates) have exposed how Dean just shot himself in the foot with the Black vote. Pro-NRA, embracing racists without health care, two Blacks in your entire state - I'm sure that joke's going to go over real well.

<>

[ludwigb]

22. Granted. Edwards' remarks were even worse than Kerry's

"What Howard Dean said today was nothing short of offensive. Democrats from every wing of the party understand what that flag symbolizes. And when a politician embraces one of the most divisive symbols in America, it is offensive to every American. Some of the greatest Civil Rights leaders, white and black, have come from the South. To assume that southerners who drive trucks would embrace this symbol is offensive.”

This is intellectual dishonesty worthy of Sullivan or The National Review. Dean did not "embrace" the flag, nor did he imply that southerners who drive trucks all have confederate decals. Edwards and Kerry are dreaming if they believe people are going to take such nonsense seriously.

[DrFunkenstein]

39. Speaking Of Dishonesty - That's Not What Edwards Claimed

Read a little more carefully next time.

[ludwigb]

98. I guess I just can't see the nuances

Perhaps you could eludicate the greater meaning of Edwards' statment. And I would ask you personally--if you believe Dean is merely stupid and not a racist, why don't you condemn these remarks as the obvious bullshit they are?

Going on to your more substantive criticisms, I rescind my TNR remark (My subscription recently ran out and thus I can't produce references--I grant you that Peretz and Beinart seem to have something personal against Kerry, though there can be little doubt they prefer him to Dean), although I think it is clear on a more general level that most of the TNR editors (I'm thinking of Chait, Beinart, Judis), as part of the general DLC mileu, were advancing an anyone but Dean position months ago, which set the stage for Clark's emergence. Kerry was best positioned to emerge as the anti-Dean and failed to do so--hardly through a lack of effort.

As for Iraq--Dean's Iraq position was complicated and not always completely consistent, but never ambivalent or self-contradictory a la Kerry. Kerry should have stuck to his "I'm glad we did it" stump speech--now he just looks like a fool. Through Graham and Durbin, who voted against the war, Kerry had access to the pre-war intelligence, a fact that makes his "I was duped" arguments today pathetically disingenous. Even worse is his whining about how Bush promised an international coalition, etc.--if that were true than Kerry should have insisted on such a condition (like a new UN resolution) before voting for IWR. Had he done so, I might have been able to respect his position.

Finally, I think you misunderestimate Dean if you think his fighting persona he won't appeal to African American activists. He already has the endorsement of the African American leader I respect most--Jessie Jackson Jr.--and I think he will continue to suprise a lot more people who still don't understand his appeal.

Let me be clear--I am in no way convinced that Dean is a more electable canidate than a southerner like Edwards or Clark--in fact I doubt it. Furthermore, as someone else on this thread aptly pointed out--the hostility Dean generates is definetely a major liability. At this point I can only support him insofar as I believe Dean is the best canidate in terms of both the issues and intellectual integrity, rather than the best man to take on Bush. I believe that Dean has set the tone for straightfowardly taking on Bush and deserves a good portion of the credit for the shift in public opinion. Speaking for myself--it is time to take Kerry off the table. He had his chances and failed dramatically. Had he had the courage to vote against IWR he might have been the front-runner, now he will regret that vote for the rest of his life.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[KaraokeKarlton]

20. It has just caused me to have even stronger negative feelings about him

I went from just not liking him as the nominee but being willing to vote for him if he won to detesting him so bad that I will write in Howard Dean's name if Kerry is the nominee. Being that I live in Vermont I know that Kerry has been lying repeatedly about my ex governor, and I have no use for him as a result.

[mitchum]

21. Not at all. I'm glad that Kerry called out that pandering piece of shit

fuck Rockefeller Republicans in Dem clothing

[Name removed]

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[mitchum]

25. Don't you get more than enough at the Dean meet ups?

[Padraig18]

27. Nope.

We don't spend our time figuring out how to lie about and twist other's candidates' words out of context, either.

[MercutioATC]

73. To whom has he "pandered"?

...just curious...

[Name removed]

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[Padraig18]

86. At least we have company.

Must be getting very lonely at those Kerry meet-ups. Where is your next one going to be--- in a phone booth?

[mitchum]

87. No, in a darkened room while we're fondling Geronimo's skull

That's right, isn't it?

[MercutioATC]

88. You have a thing for kink, don't you?

"circle jerks" and "fondling Geronimo's skull"? What do either have to do with the question I asked? Using Webster's definition of "pander", how would you say that Dean has "pandered" to racists?

[mitchum]

89. you forgot "pander"...

it also has a sexual connotation. Ditch that Webster's with only one definition per entry (how odd) and check out the OED. You'll find my Dean accusation and also the "kink" you're looking for

[MercutioATC]

95. Again, you're not answering the question...

Use ANY definition of "pander". How is Dean pandering to racists? He has never even come close to condoning racism. He has, however, said that even two groups percieved as differently as southern blacks and people who display the Confederate flag have an interest in standing together as their similar needs outweigh their differences.

[LuminousX]

24. Last Sentence

I fall into a subset of the last sentence. Kerry's dogged efforts to mortally wound Dean has made me step back from Dean because anyone who generates such hostility and open hatred from another candidate may become too toxic to support. Of course, this means voting for Kerry becomes anathema because he becomes as vile as his attacks.

I'm honestly left with no one to vote for and there aren't any solid cases being made to change my minds. Whoever falls through the sieve of the primaries will get my backing, but quite honestly, I can't become enthused about any of them.

[loyalsister]

45. I'm close to where you are

I think it could hurt Dean in the general if he were the nominee. But, I think it is a sickening way to use people's feelings about racism against another candidate. Kerry is an intelligent man who understood and grasped the nuances of Dean's position.
I've always been disgusted by the way the right uses people's racism as a political tool. What Kerry has done is the flip side by using people's intense feelings about racism as a political tool. Kerry nauseates me. That all of the other candidates joined in creates a very disturbing field. They should have all been together on this a very long time ago. Dean proposed to take away a political tool from the right AND bring people together.

[curse10]

26. No n/t

[dsc]

28. Kerry lost me with his tax cut rhetoric

Using the exact same, dishonest, tactic Bush used in 2000 (choosing atypical families and pretending they are typical and misusing averages) gave me a lot of pause. I am ABB and that includes Kerry but not only are his attacks as of late dishonest they are indeed Bush lite in the truest sense of those words.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. "His Attacks" And "Bush-lite" In The Same Sentence

Do you not see the incredible hypocrisy behind this?

I mean, it wasn't like Kerry compared Dean to a friggin' cockroach or anything.

[dsc]

50. Just what should that behavior be called?

He used the exact same, dishonest method Bush used to promote his case. Given that Bush lite is generous.

[poskonig]

30. It caused me to lean back towards Dean.

People making an issue of the confederate flag have the wrong priorities.

[Padraig18]

31. Indeed! n/t

[sandnsea]

32. A symbol of 150 years of racism

Not important. Interesting point of view.

[poskonig]

35. The Iraq debacle is important.

The political correctness of the show "Dukes of Hazard," for instance:

Not important.

[sandnsea]

74. Racism was part of Iraq

How easy do you think it would have been to convince Americans to invade a white English speaking country?

Minimizing it doesn't change it.

[Name removed]

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[poskonig]

107. I rephrase this in a manner that won't get censored.

The United States fought two world wars in Europe, a continent comprised mainly of white people. Even recently, Clinton bombed the crap out of Serbia, a "white" country, to stop ethnic cleansing.

Claiming the United States goes only to war against non-whites is absurd. Iraq was probably about oil, not some great scheme to aggrandize the white race or whatever.

Therefore, your judgment is questionable.

[sandnsea]

110. Ethnic cleansing is racism

Democrats supported Clinton because they care about racism.

The wars in Europe were easy for us to get into because they involved our white ancestors, particularly defending our British ancestors. There was a level of racism directed towards the Germans at the time as well.

And I never said Iraq was about aggrandizing the white race. You threw that in there. I said it's easier for Americans to go to war against people of color because there is still alot of racism in this country. At the same time, it's easier for Americans to ignore atrocities when they happen in Africa. I guess you missed the race part of the war protests.

And if you're going to deny all of this, then it only adds to the perception that Dean supporters' judgment is erratic when it comes to defending Howard Dean.

[Andromeda]

94. No way did Dean's remark

about Confederate flag decals on pickup trucks imply that he condones racism. That's just silly!

His reference to Confederate flags was merely metaphorical for a demographic in parts of the South who traditionally votes Republican generally out of mistrust of liberals and Democrats. Dean has stated that he intends to seek their votes because they need health care just like anybody else (I'm paraphrasing here).

Dean is inclusive and wants to bring in people from all walks of life who have, in the past, voted against their best interests.

[George_Bonanza]

33. Loads of people have attacked Dean

Including uber-principled Dennis Kucinich. DK has accused Dean of not being liberal enough, and of lying through his TV ads. Lots of other candidates other than Kerry jumped on Dean for his confederate flag remark. Why single out Kerry? I think Kerry has a right to be alert since he and Dean are targeting the same demographics, and it was Dean that blind-sided Kerry early in the race by distorting Kerry's positions as a "Bush-liter", when the fact is that Kerry was fighting neo-con oppression for 20 years while Dean was pursuing his very centrist (aka willing to compromise with Republicans, aka Bush-lite) agenda in Vermont.

Kerry is not principled. Riiiiiggghhhhtttt. I bet guys like George W. Bush would risk his life for his country. I bet they'd even protest it was wrong after they returned. I bet they'd go after goliaths and win, despite being in the minority. I bet they'd champion causes from the day they take off, rather than when it becomes the trend. All unprincipled guys do this, don't they?

[helleborient]

36. I will be leaving DU soon because...

The animosity among fellow Democrats here is nothing like what I encounter in the real world. In the real world, Democrats most frequently work together - at least my part of the real world.

From what I've seen, John Kerry long ago exposed his weaknesses in the campaign - that he can not garner enough attention or get his message across well enough to rise closer than single digits in SC or 10% points behind in both Iowa and New Hampshire when he had the head start of early money and early poll leads.

I am impressed by the campaign of Howard Dean, but yes, a bit concerned about statements he has made. I do believe the votes he is talking about in the Confederate flag flap are possibly Democratic votes - a lot of them did go to Bill Clinton, and I believe the loss of them is part of what led to Al Gore's loss in Tennessee. They certainly were Democratic votes when it was that wing of the Democratic Party that was the basis for George Wallace's campaigns. I'm not sure I want to be identified in that group, but if it gets rid of Bush - it's an open question to me whether that's valuable or not.

I'm going to leave DU and not consider giving money any more either, because I want to leave the backbiting and incredible nastiness (yes, it's brought it out in me as well in a way that I almost never attack people in the real world)...and I like how I am in the real world, but not on here. I suspect I would like a number of individuals here in the real world, but I've grown to nearly detest them here. That's not the normal way I live my life, and it saddens me here.

Hope to see you all in the real world campaign...in Iowa...at the polls next fall.

[indigo32]

62. I agree...

I've about had it with this place.

[blm]

37. Were you alarmed earlier this year when Dean was attacking Kerry?

Dean attacked Kerry even after his surgery while Kerry was off the campaign trail.

Dean threw the first twenty punches while many of you applauded. Whenever a candidate reciprocates now against Dean, many of you call foul.

[Padraig18]

38. And we wonder about the Middle east and Ulster?

Pretty clear why they can't be resolved--- just like here, no one can let it go. The beast of vengeance must be fed... :eyes:

[blm]

41. Dean started this tone, his supporters applauded this tone.

It was a calculation Dean made early this year. If his supporters would hold him accountable maybe the tone can change for the better.

[Name removed]

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[Padraig18]

46. We repent!

We have come to understand the legitimate difference between 'waffling' and 'nuancing'... How ever could we have been so blind? LOL! :P

[polpilot]

48. Sweet Jesus I have sinned!!!!!!!! But please don't send me to Waffleland!

Dean '04...

[blm]

51. Those who applauded his early attacks know who they are.

Those who applauded those attacks by Dean and NOW complain about reciprocation know who they are.

If you don't fit into that category of Dean supporter, you know you aren't being referred to by me.

[LuminousX]

53. Then let's string them up!

[blm]

59. No...they should just stop acting like the scrutiny and the

reciprocation is somehow undeserved.

No hyperbole necessary.

[Padraig18]

63. Perfect revenge...

... of the 'an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth' variety usually leaves everyone blind and toothless. Think about it.

[blm]

69. There are others who spew vitriol.

I don't get vitriolic. I state my opposition based on Dean's centrist record and disingenuous use of populist rhetoric. I also attack the media who promoted him. I don't attack his supporters viciously. Maybe you should attend to ALL those who use vitriol in their posts. To single me out is absurd.

[Padraig18]

70. I didn't.

What makes you think I singled you out? Don't read anything into what I wrote--- I usually say just exactly what I mean to say, no more, no less.

[LuminousX]

104. My posts

have at the very least seven layers of meaning. Including this one.

[helleborient]

43. A last post...because you misunderstood the other...

My leaving here has nothing to do with John Kerry or Howard Dean.

It has to do with how people treat each other here. That's not the world I want to live in and 98% of the time it isn't the one I live in offline. I don't like what it does to me...and I don't like what it obviously does to others.

I genuinely can't believe that many of us would respond with the same nastiness and vitriol in person. Just because you can do it in a faceless way here does not mean I want to be part of it.

My stress level, health, and sense of treating others as I would like to be treated can be nourished far far better elsewhere...sometimes even among friends I know to be Republicans.

[Cocoa]

40. Kerry's criticisms have been fair

I think he should have started earlier countering Dean.

[Padraig18]

54. 'Fair'?

Try 'cheap' and 'opportunistic' on for size 1st... :eyes:

[genius]

66. True. Kerry's criticisms have been absolutely fair

The trouble is that Dean can only dish it out. He doesn't seem to be able to take any criticism, no matter how true it is.

[Padraig18]

67. Try 'cheap' and 'opportunistic' on first...

... the shoe fits much better. :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Blue Gardener]

47. Don't Like the Hunting Pictures

Seeing a picture of Kerry on his pheasant hunting outing has now put him way at the bottom of my list. Big gun does not equal big manhood. I live in Iowa and plan to attend the caucuses, no way anyone is convincing me to join the Kerry team if my candidate doesn't do well.

[polpilot]

49. I think that was an artificial pheasant or was it a man eating pheasant??

Was the pheasat armed?? It looked like its feet were tied together.

Blam!!!! Blam!!!! Blam!!!! Click!!! Click!!! Click!!!! = Quickie Photo of The Manly Man!!! shooting the unarmed birdie...


Dean '04....

[Padraig18]

55. Have to disagree

Pheasant are DELICIOUS! :P

[LuminousX]

56. Kerry is a well known hunter

I have no problems with the photo op and have no doubt he killed the birds.

It raises his esteem in my eyes a bit, as he is a doer not a pretender like Bush, but his intentionaly lying about Dean's position on the Confederate Flag for political gain is simply disgusting and very un-Presidential.

Clark, so far, has the best reaction to the statement.

[Padraig18]

57. I agree that Clark's response...

... is the sanest and least hystrionic of all the candidates. His stock has risen greatly in my eyes these last 24 hours--- he's now my #2 choice.

[polpilot]

90. What if Dean killed 5 ostriches with a baseball bat?? Would that 'raise

his esteem in your eyes'?.. What if Edwards crashed an Apache helicopter into a herd of elk killing 37 mature elk and 17 suckling baby elks?? Would this be a 'qualifying event??..

Dean '04...

[LuminousX]

106. LOL

In my opinion, and my opinion is often skewed from the rest of the world, there is a difference between buying permit and hunting pheasant in a manner that has been done for hundreds of years and killing ostriches with a baseball bat.

Having been around ostriches, though, if someone could kill 5 before getting the everlovingsh*t kicked out of them, then I would have some increased admiration for them, but that would be countered by my hatred of the bloody cruelty of the act. I'm not an animal rights activist, but I am an animal lover.

[Upfront]

58. Changed mine

Kerry was my 2nd choice, now he is dead last. He is making Libberman look better. Go Dr. Dean!

[DrFunkenstein]

64. Is This Like Saying France Was The Opposition To The War?

Bush tried to make opposition to the war seem trivial by pushing it off on the cheese eaters - but the vast majority of the world opposed it!

Are Dean people trying to turn this into a Dean vs. Kerry thing - considering that EVERY candidate condemned the remarks?

PS - Maybe others expressed outrage at the remarks. I just think it made him look like a horse's ass.

But I have noticed a pattern in many Dean supporters. They fluctuate between attacks and self-pity, the true mark of a bully. At least Kerry supporters took our licks with some dignity. Alot of the people even on this thread said some pretty nasty stuff about Kerry through the months. Now they want to feel sorry for themselves.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. If Edwards was the frontrunner, people would not be this intense. Why? Because he's been a classy guy since the beginning. The other candidates started firing back at Dean around the beginning of September - although Dean had been talking nasty non-stop since last year.

After the cockroaches comment, I knew Dean would fold under the scrutiny. He didn't even bother with outreach at the debates. He just preached about how wonderful his choir was. He's not even going to bother toning things down and acting Presidential. I guess we'll see what happens.

[Padraig18]

65. Yes, and he gains in the polls after all that.

You folks might do well with some introspection about your given candidate's words and actions, don't you think? :shrug:

[LuminousX]

77. It is a handful of Kerry supporters who have posted several threads on it

So, it seems to me at least it is the Kerry supporters who are really carrying the torch on this attack.

[Alex146]

68. You hit the nail...Kerry has lost face with me too

Go Dean

[CWebster]

71. Lower than ever in my estimation.

Now I don't even respect the promise of who he could of been based on who he used to be.

[mzmolly]

75. Yes, Kerry is no longer my second choice for President.

:mad:

[nocreativename]

115. Kerry goes

On my list of people I will vote Green if this is who the Democrats give us for a Presidential Nominee.

List:
Clark (Kosivo)
Lieberman (he is really a pubie)
Kerry (Mr. I deserve this)

[ima_sinnic]

78. Kerry has been my bottom choice for some time now

He and Lieberman equally at the bottom. Kerry is supposed to know "all about" BFEE and was on the front lines during Iran-Contra--yet he fell all over himself to get behind BushCo's evil war. F#%* HIM!!! He has never once used the term "PNAC" in public, to my knowledge, has never once pointed out the absolute outrage of Iran-Contra and how it's the same cabal now in power (that I know of). Guess that wouldn't make it in "polite society." Edwards used to be my 3rd choice, after Kucinich (#2) and Dean (#1) but he's down at the bottom now, after I heard him being so nicey-nice soft-spoken about the Patriot Act in a recent interview (kept prefacing his remarks with (paraphrase) "well, there ARE some good sections of that act," giving everybody confidence that the PA isn't all THAT bad), and now his BS comments about Dean's Confederate flag remarks. Edwards comes across as lusterless, dull and ordinary.

[Endangered Specie]

80. Im still pulling for Dean

He knows how to appeal to more than just the 10% minority liberal population. And he can raise $$$.

Kerry, Gepht Edw and Sharp's attacks only make me want to vote for him even more

[No More Shrub]

82. Yes, they make me want to vote for Kucinich n/t

[eileen_d]

85. Nope, I'm still for Kerry.

Politics is not pretty. Kerry's the best candidate and I hope he fights to win with Dean, because Kerry deserves the nomination.

[pruner]

92. the only person who "deserves" the nomination…

is the one who does the best in the primaries.

as things now stand, it doesn't look like that's gonna be Kerry.

btw, your use of the word "deserves" seems to imply that you think Kerry is entitled to the nomination… in which case I think he'd agree with you.

[stickdog]

93. Kerry = Professor Putmee Toosleep

Kerry's attacks on Dean = duplicitous cant.

[Meshuga]

97. Tell that Bush-lite cockroach to stop with the cheap shots!

Can the Kerry supporters tell him to stop? Will you tell your Bush-lite Cockroach candidate to stop with the cheap shots?

:-)

[Khephra]

96. Kerry started as my number one pick

and then he turned into my number two pick after I listened to his "Trust Bush to do the Right Thing" speech, right before the Iraq vote. Never had I felt so disappoited in a politican. Of all people, Kerry should have known better than to trust Bush to do the right thing when it came to warfare.

(It's saying a lot when a political novice like me could see through Bush, yet Kerry--a man who faunts his Vietnam creds whenever possible--was fooled by Bush. That was foolish on Kerry's part. Anyone who was fooled into trustin Bush really doesn't deserve our trust.)

But I, being an open-hearted liberal, was willing to forgive him, so he stayed at the number two postion.

Then, using Dean's statements about Democrats being proud to be Democrats, Kerry and the other establishment Dems got a hair up their ass when they couldn't take critical comments about their own actual actions. Instead they've chosen to resort to tactics that I thought were only done on the Right-Side of the fence.

Screw Kerry, Gephardt, and Liberman and, to a lesser extent, Edwards. If you are able to be fooled by Bush, stand up for the war, and resort to tactics like I've seen recently the establishment Demos ,well then...you'll probably get my vote over Bush, but then again I'm probably vote for an actual shrub over Bush at this time.

Dean (or Kucinich or maybe Clark) in 2004!

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

100. Amen!!

[blm]

102. Yet, it was fine with you that Dean lied? That Dean pushpolled?

Cry me a river, kef. Dean built his suppport by lying to audiences that the others supported Bush's taxcut for the wealthiest when NONE of them did. He said they were "Bushlite" when all of them were to Dean's left on almost all Democratic platform issues. IWR is "Bushlite, then Dean's support for the IWR with the Biden-Lugar amendment is Bushlite-lite? That's OK with you, heh? What a load of disingenuous sanctimony you have to swallow to make that case. Dean is not even close to being the populist he is pretending to be for the last 11 months.

[LuminousX]

109. Push polled?

See, it never ends.

We've been around this topic at least 10 times. If you keep asserting a falsehood, eventually you will be called a liar.

[blm]

112. Based on what? You want to put lipstick on a pig.

You want to say that negative reinforcement against your opponents via a telephone poll ISN"T push polling, but it IS. No GOp generated coverup definition will change that fact. The only people who ever used different explanations on those phone attacks were GOP fixers. YOU can depend on their diversionary explanations. I know better.

[LuminousX]

113. The State of Maine has a legal definition that I've give you several times

And if Dean DID push-poll in Iowa how come that phrase was never used against him by the other campaigns?

D'oh! I guess they missed their chance of a killer attack. I guess that would be another reason why they aren't worthy of being leaders.

Dean never push-polled. His negative survey was a legitimate survey. You can have your own personal definition, but obviously Edwards campaign doesn't agree because they never called it a push-poll.

[DrFunkenstein]

103. Dean Would Never Trust Bush

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president.

D'oh!

"Then, using Dean's statements about Democrats being proud to be Democrats, Kerry and the other establishment Dems got a hair up their ass when they couldn't take critical comments about their own actual actions."

Actually, if you remember, Kerry said we cannot win by acting like Republicans and Dean called him "Dean-lite." It was one of the first steps by Dean on his long road to prickhood.

I find it slightly disingenuous when you say you lost respect for Kerry because of his attacks on another Democrat. Rather than focus on his own message - even as the frontrunner! - Dean has consistently tried to smear and silence his opponenets with some really low-down stuff.

Kerry actually fired a major staffer after refusing for months to retaliate Dean's attacks. Keep that in mind.

[drfemoe]

99. Never

Kerry AND Gephardt are still doing what they've been doing for the past three years and that is advacing the agenda for gwb...

I expected more from Edwards, but it is not to be.

If they are sincere, why don't they use their positions NOW to change the suicide course we are on??? Because they have to play dirty washington tricks to try to stop someone who actually will change the downward spiral of our country.

I will vote green or libertarian before I would vote for John Kerry .. yes, he has sunk below Lieberman.

[DrFunkenstein]

105. Advancing Bush's Agenda?

In case you haven't noticed, Kerry has been hammering Bush for well over a year now, while promoting an ACTUAL AGENDA as opposed to slogans and cliff's notes policy speeches.

This is from an old post, but it'll do:

August 1, 2003 - Kerry Talks with Workers Struggling Under Bush Economy in NH

John Kerry Calls on Bush to Put National Security First, Break Stranglehold of Foreign Oil
July 29, 2003

July 28, 2003 - Kerry Urges Bush to Seek U.N. Support in Iraq
Democratic Candidate Questions if 'False Pride' is Delaying the Move

July 21, 2003 - Kerry rips Bush on national security issues
BY Mike Glover - Associated Press

July 17, 2003 - Kerry says credibility gap has opened between Bush rhetoric, actions
By Will Lester - Associated Press

July 17, 2003 - Kerry heats up attacks: Blasts Bush on homeland security
By Elisabeth J. Beardsley - Boston Herald

July 17 2003 - Kerry Says Bush Lacks Viable Security Plan
By Alan Feuer - New York Times

July 16, 2003 - Kerry: Bush's Failed Economic Policies Lead to Record Deficits;
Administration Needs To Scrap Economic Policy

July 16, 2003 - Kerry Says Bush Has Credibility Gap
By Will Lester - Associated Press Writer

July 13, 2003 - Kerry criticizes Bush record at La Raza
By April Castro - ASSOCIATED PRESS

July 11, 2003 - Kerry Raps Bush Policy on Postwar Iraq
By Dan Balz, Washington Post

July 10, 2003 - POLITICAL NOTEBOOK: Kerry says money lacking behind Bush education rhetoric
By WILL LESTER, Associated Press

June 20, 2003 - Kerry says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights

May 2, 2003 - Kerry says Bush economic plan ignores the country's needs
Boston Globe

April 15, 2003 - Kerry Faults VA Drug Policy
Washington, D.C.: States News Service

April 4, 2003 - Democratic Candidate Fires Back at DeLay, Republicans for Attacks over 'regime change' Comments
Washington, D.C.: Associated Press

March 18, 2003 - Kerry Proposes Homeland Security Plan to Make America Stronger and Safer
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

March 17, 2003 - Senator John Kerry Responds to the President's Speech to the Nation
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

March 14, 2003 - Kerry Blasts Bush on Iraq Effort
San Francisco, CA: Sacramento Bee

March 14, 2003 - Kerry Asks Bush Administration to Investigate Record High Gas Prices
Washington, D.C.: Kerry Campaign Press Release

March 13, 2003 - Bush 'Robbing Peter to Pay Paul,' Kerry Says
San Francisco, CA: The San Francisco Chronicle

March 7, 2003 - Kerry Asks Bush Again to Release Home Heating Oil Reserves
Hampton, NH: Associated Press

March 4, 2003 - Kerry Criticizes U.S.-Russian Nuclear Arms Deal
Washington, D.C.: Associated Press

February 28, 2003 - Back on Trail, Kerry Assails Bush Team
Anaheim, CA: Los Angeles Times

February 9, 2003 - Kerry Campaign Speech Blasts Bush Environmental Actions
Washington, D.C.: Los Angeles Times

January 28, 2003 - Kerry Responds to President Bush's State of the Union Address
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

February 23, 2003 - Kerry Proposes 'Progressive Internationalism' As Alternative To 'Blustering' Bush Approach
Washington, D.C.: Cox News Service

January 19, 2003 - Stops in Iowa Focus on Bush's 'Failure'
Marion, IA: Des Moines Register

January 15, 2003 - Kerry Blasts Bush Effort to Undermine Diversity at Univ. of Michigan
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

January 7, 2003 - Kerry Says Bush Plan Wrong for Our Workers, Wrong for Our Economy
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

December 16, 2002 - Kerry Calls on Bush to Scrap Economic Proposals that Would Hurt Struggling Workers
Washington, D.C.: Kerry Campaign Press Release

December 11, 2002 - Kerry Says Trent Lott Should Step Aside As Majority Leader
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator John Kerry

[drfemoe]

108. hehe

.. like I said, how about a little less talk and a lot more action?

They are doing NOTHING with the power of their current offices to stop what is wrong .. NOR are they DOING anything about voting scams, tax cuts for the rich, administration leaks of cia operatives, "withholding of information" on 9/11 and iraq intelligence . on and on .. they are on Capital Hill and do NOTHING to improve the situation. They have voted and continue to vote with and for gwb's policies.

Don't give me speeches.

[DrFunkenstein]

111. Um, ANWR? Estrada? A Rove Investigation? 87 Billion?

Considering that Dean has done nothing but give speeches (and didn't even attend a single anti-war rally), I'm not sure what you mean.

Did you notice that Joseph Wilson is actually a part of the Kerry campaign now? Or that Kerry voted against the new EPA head - like he did Gale Norton and John Ashcroft?

[nocreativename]

116. But when it comes time to stand up he does not

Where was Kerry on the:

leavitt vote

Health Forest Vote

War Vote

Tax Vote

Global Warming Vote

the list goes on and on

If you vote the same as a pubie, or you don't vote at all, that kind of means you support the pubie agenda.

[nocreativename]

114. I makes me like Kerry less

See Dean points his attacks at Bush too. I seems Kerry has put more focus on attacking Dean over Bush.