Candidate Dean digs hole deeper re Confederate flag remark...

[flpoljunkie]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2003/11/02/candidates_criticize_dean_for_confederate_flag_remark/

In a statement last night, Dean likened his rivals' criticism to what he said were Richard M. Nixon's attempts to divide "working people by race" and to split the Democratic base. "For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic," Dean said.

Perhaps one of his advisers needs to tell Dean that no matter who the Democrats nominate, we will not be getting the votes of those who display Confederate flags on their pickup trucks.

These folks are not part of the Democratic base. And, lucky for us, many of them aren't even registered to vote.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tsipple]

3. Well, It Beats Talking About Kerry's Iraq Vote Today

Always wanting to change the subject from the top news story.

Having been in that phase when I wanted to lash out (when my candidate wasn't doing well), I get it. I understand.

[wtmusic]

27. What is Kerry's position on bumper stickers?

This is ludicrous.

[LuminousX]

2. Wrong

They used to vote Democratic. Then Reagan came along.

[JohnKleeb]

17. I thought they started at Nixon

and the urban blue collar worker voted for Reagan. I am no historian :D.

[DemDogs]

43. Even Zell Miller knows the confederate flag is a symbol of oppression

Last election we got them was LBJ and then they figured out that we actually respected the rights of African-Americans and cared how they felt about their oppression -- including the oppression represented by the confederate flag. Zell Miller when he was governor used a lot of political capital to get rid of the flag in Georgia. Even he understood this. Dean doesn't get it. And you all who are defending him on this are tone-deaf to the part of the Democratic base that is going to make the difference in 2004. Shame on you.

[LuminousX]

70. No one is saying it isn't

[Demobrat]

4. I think that's the point.

They are not part of the Democratic base and they should be. The assumption that any southern white person who displays the confederate flag is a racist is the very definition of prejudice. It is judging them based on outward appearances without knowing them. It also assumes that people who hold beliefs other than those deemed by the majority to be acceptable are not entitled to the same rights as others. That is discrimination. Dr. Dean would like to end prejudice and discrimination against all people, even southern white maybe racists, like it or not. I think that is a worthy goal.

[flpoljunkie]

65. I was going to call bushit on this delusional drivel, then I realized...

that it was satire. Hilarious!

[Demobrat]

98. What's hilarious

are The Annointed One's pathetic attempts to build himself up by attacking the frontrunner. He should just drop out now. Isn't it obvious yet that his I'm A Real Soldier And Bush Isn't positioning has been usurped by The General, and now he has no chance?

[flpoljunkie]

114. What's hilarious you ask? This statement.

"The assumption that any southern white person who displays the confederate flag is a racist is the very definition of prejudice."

[MrTriumph]

5. Dean is right

Now is the time for Democrats to take back the South by asking Joe Six Pack how he benefits from voting Republican. The fact is, he doesn't. In many places in the South, attitudes about race are changing. The South is ripe for the taking.

If Gep. wants to build the party without the South, he has a losing strategy.

[billbuckhead]

15. Gephardt said he wants to be the candidate of those with American..

flags on our pickup trucks. This shows how sicko Deans position is when one considers it's being used to put down the guy who has an American flag on their truck instead of the battle flag of the sworn enemies of the USA. Face facts, that in the last century Confederate sympathizers killed more Americans than Al Queda has killed. Lyching didn't subside till the late 50's and to this day black people don't get their votes counted.

[mbali]

107. Joe Six Pack benefits

by voting Republican because the GOP takes care of his top priority - maintaining the notion of white male superiority and tamping down any efforts that threaten it. The only reason for them to switch parties is if the Democrats can meet or beat that deal.

Minorities and progressive Democrats understand this and know that any effort to attract these voters would have to result in the diminishment of their concerns. This is one instance in which we ARE playing a zero sum game.

Dean obviously fails to realize this and that failure to comprehend this complex issue is another reason he's clearly not ready for primetime.

[killbotfactory]

6. It's Dean for AMERICA

Not Dean for democrats.

People who fly the confederate flag deserve health care and a good economy, too. Dean is rightfully pointing out that the repubs have screwed them by using wedge politics and they are voting against their interests. That's it.

[wtmusic]

7. Candidate Dean Helps Reveal Desperation of Critics

[Padraig18]

8. We have marginalized and stereotyped Southerners, to our detriment.

Dean recognizes this, and is trying to 're-enter' the South, politically; he understands that many Southerners are voting against their own self-interests by voting Republican. It would be nice to get some HELP in getting this message out, rather than engage in the politics of division.

[Nazgul35]

9. For those interested in educating themselves...

instead of allowing others to select the context in which a candidate's words were quotes through careful editing.....

see the actual speach from which the quotes was lifted....than perhaps those of you who are having such a hard time understanding the problem Dean is trying to address willl reach some clarity....

go here to see and hear what the Governor actually said:

http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/odrivc/c04_022103dnc.rm

than perhaps we can have a discussion about trying to work for all Americans...instead of practicing the politics of exclusion...as some here seem so interested in continuing.....

education is the best antidote to racism.....continuing to allow the lower income Americans to fight for crumbs at the table will only continue to exacerbate the problems, which is where racism gets its roots from.....perhaps others want to treat the symptoms....myself and the good doctor seem more concerned about treating the causes of racism.....or perhaps they're just trying to score some cheap political points.....you decide...

[Padraig18]

11. The KKK and monied aristocrats:

They pitted poor, white and black southerners against each other for their own benefit for 100 years. Are we enabling the Republicans to continue the practice?

Think about it, folks!

[loyalsister]

55. Good question

What Dean is proposing is to take a political tool away from the right. Then we see his desparate opponents turn around a use it as a tool themselves. To use racism OR people's feelings about it as a political tool is equally cynical and equally dispicable.

[Padraig18]

60. Exactly!

:hi:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

109. "Despicable."

Anyone who can't see that the tactics of Kergepwards are much, much worse and more damaging to the Democratic party than what they are accusing Dean of, needs to take a good long look in the mirror. This is race-baiting for the purposes of accruing political power. A Pug tactic.

Despicable.

[quinnox]

10. Why am I not surprised

Dean makes a serious blunder, then when called on it by the other candidates accuses any who dares criticize him for it as Nixonian.

This is amazing, the arrogance of Dean. Does he really think he can win running against what the Democratic party stands for? If so, he is in for a rude awakening.

[Nazgul35]

13. How do you know

it's a serious blunder....did you view the actual speach...or are you just trying to score some cheap political points?

Perhaps you should take a few breaths and address some of the issue raised in this forum before you make such blatently out of touch statements as above...

I thought it was always the Dean supporters accused of being nonresponsive....oh yeah...I forgot, the whole point of this exercise is a desperate Kerry campaign flailing out at Dean in any attempt to salvage his campaign...Kerry and Gephardt would rather Dean not win than campaign on their own...joining forces to ensure that if they can't win...Dean won't.....kinda remindes me of an out of control lover, who when spurned by the object of their desire (the Democratic Party) declare that if I can't have you....no one else can!!!! (i.e. Dean)....sad really.....

[billbuckhead]

18. Legitimizing the Confederate flag is not a blunder?

Is this what the Deanies really stand for?

[killbotfactory]

19. he didn't legitimize it

[Nazgul35]

26. wow....really!

somwtimes I truely sit and wonder what color is the sky in other people's worlds....I mean really, what in what the Governor said....(because I am sure you have actually seen the whole speach that I linked to above...right?!)....legitimizes the confederate flag?

Is he espousing policies that supports racists beliefs or is he instead trying to undermine the very environment that allows racism to breed and be exploited by the repugs in election after election....

This is just silly!

Are you calling for politics of exclusion? Is that your answer to the problems of racism in America!? Who here actually believes that ignoring the outward trappings of racism is ever going to get us to that place that DR. King spoke of?

Come on damn it! Wake up!! Most people are not Klan members who put the confederate flag up....most people are scared and worried that they may loose their job, that if they support the Democrats, not only will they lose their job, but Dems will give it to less qualified African Americans!!!!

Why do they buy it? Becuase the country is set up so that all that's left for the middle class and poor in this country is crumbs!!! In order to change attitude, you must change the conditions in which these attitudes are created!!! That's what Dean is all about...and to suggest otherwise is nothing more than the reverse Southern Strategy...paint any Dem that seeks to address the problems of poor southerners as closet racists who will do away with Afrimative Action and all our civil rights....it is below contempt and Kerry and Edwards should be ashamed of themselves!!!! If anyone has shown themselevs in a bad light...it is these two candidates...and i'm sure Gephardt and Lieberman will be joining them shortly in this trategy of exclusion.....

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

40. Bill:

Are you getting paid by the word or the post?

[bearfartinthewoods]

110. what worries me is that his rude awakening may come

one year and one day from today when we all find ourselves in a nightmare from which there is no awakening.

[DinahMoeHum]

12. The ancestors of those who display the Confederate flag

were most likely poor Southern whites, NOT slaveowners.

These poor Southern whites furnished most of the casualties in the Civil War. Nothing has really changed since then; they are supplying a large amount of casualties in Iraq, along with black and hispanic troops.

They were screwed by the powers-that-be then; they are still being screwed now by slave-owning types like * and Co.

If Dean or Clark can reach these people and offer them a way out of this cycle; I'm all for it.

:kick:

[Dagaz]

14. So the flag is ok?

When Karl Rove sends a mob to wave the Starts and Bars outside the Democratic convention you will see this as a good thing?

[Nazgul35]

20. instead fo worrying about the symbol...

try worrying about the cause....it wouldn't matter if the falg had the symbol of an old milk bottle on it.....the problem is racism and where it comes from....

It comes from being uneducated....it comes from dispair, lack of hope....forcing human beings to compete against each other for whatever scraps are left over when Dick Chaney and friends are done....

So you'll get rid of it by preaching to them that they're bad people...is that your argument about the Germans circa 1930s, America today? Or is the answer that people, when driven by fear and need are sucseptible to any message that provides security in the form of symbolism and ethnocentrism....

For me, the way to beat racism is to remove the problems that create an environment for racism to take hold....will this eleminate all racists...no....but it certainly will diminish the ability of politicians to use it to divide people.....

the same way we should be trying to solve the problems in the developing world that creates an environment that makes a person think that strapping a bomb...or flying a plane into a crowd of fellow human beings is better than trying to live! Remove the underlying causes of dispair and want, of the politics of seperation and exclusion...and yeah...I think we just might make things better in this world.....

[Padraig18]

24. Why not focus on the *problem*, rather than a symbol?

The problem is OURS, not their; we have alienated people who, by all logic, should support US--- poor whites, parents with small children going to inadequate schools, states who are being hardest hit by lost manufacturing jobs, etc.

The failure to reach these folks has been OURS, because ineffective communication of the message is the messenger's fault.

[killbotfactory]

16. Interesting thoughts from a different discussion board

#1

Is Dean a racist bastard?
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/11/01/build/nation/67-deancomments.inc

quote:
"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Reading that article makes me wonder to what lengths the other candidates will go to drag Dean down, working from the false assumption that by lowering his prospects they raise their own. Dumbasses. The funny thing was that Dean is right, at least in terms of trying to crack the South by appealing to poor whites who vote for Bush but don't have jobs or healthcare or whatever. The collected responses to Dean by the other dwarves, of course, are just great for alienating Joe Bob Sixpack, telling him he is a racist bastard for fronting a rebel flag.

Ah, well, it's nice to see the Democrats eating their own.

#2
It's funny. Here the party is, out of the White House, both houses of Congress, and the plurality of governorships and guys like Gephardt think the same old song and dance will serve them just fine. Dean's exactly right in this case, the Dems have to reach out to at least a few aspects of their pre-1964 voting coalition.

#3
Personally, I admire Dean for what he said. It's refreshing to see someone who is unabashedly liberal in most areas, but will go against the grain when he feels it's required.

What is the big deal about the Confederate Flag? I'm no southerner, but I understand that having the flag in your pickup window is about like having an American Legion decal. It doesn't mean you are automatically a racist.

Hooray for Dean, he seems to be pushing what he feels is right, not what he feels the polls should have him say.

[billbuckhead]

22. Howie Dean wants to do what Robert E. Lee couldn't

Make the confederate flag a legitimate sysmbol in America. Can Howard Dean make no mistakes in his supporters eyes? Whats next for this panderer? White citiizens club meetings? It helps repuKKKes like Trent LooT win elections, so by all these standards that the pro-Deanies, their little hero should go kneel before them as well. Then Dean can go to the NRA and and make a pandering speech to them like Zell Miller did.

[killbotfactory]

23. Dean will destroy the earth!

Vote Kerry!

[billbuckhead]

31. Destroying our opportunity to beat Bush could destroy the earth

How can minority voters take the Democratic party when it hasn't stood up for counting their votes. And now in what is either a major faux paus by a candidate from an all white state of less people than most major cities OR a major departure from the Democratic party's position that they must now accept the Confederate flag as a legitimate. Democrats have to decide if Dean's out the door and we go into this thing united or black voters concerns will again be not a concern.
I know the Deanies will fling out Jesse Jackson Jr's endorsement and others, but I don't think that will work this time. As a white Yankee living in the south for 25 years, I have figured out that black people don't like the Confederate flag and the vast majority of urban whites don't like it either.

[Padraig18]

28. A 'scorched-earth' Democrat!

You have no CLUE aboput what inclusion means, do you? People in our party who share your viewpoint will ensure our defeat in election we SHOULD win. Have you looked at the last 30 years? :eyes:

[quinnox]

21. On second thought

after reading some of the responses defending Dean in this thread, I have to agree.

Dean's remark wasn't a blunder at all, and he should start to use the confederate flag as his backdrop when giving speeches. And he should start saying in his speeches how much he "wants to be the candidate" for those that identify with the confederate flag, and everything it stands for.

I'm sure that will go over real well in the primaries, and attract more of that segment of the vote he is going for.

[Dagaz]

25. I agree

It's so much more inclusive than that silly Rainbow flag.

[quinnox]

30. Indeed so

And I encourage all Dean supporters to post on the blog how brilliant this strategy is for Dean, it will do wonders for his campaign!

disclaimer: I'm a Kerry supporter, but that isn't important.

[Nazgul35]

29. way to address the arguments....

but luckly people who think will see this as nothing more than a last desperate attempt by Gephardt and Kerry to attack the candidate they wish they could be....so long guys, let's hope that in your pique over being rejected by the party you dont destroy our chances against Bush...cause nothing in your histories would ever suggest that you would do anything to undermine the Democrats electoral chances....right?


Dean...Dean...Dean...

pathetic...

[billbuckhead]

34. Howie Dean put the Confederate battle flag on top the pickup truck

He could of said a zillion other things. He has brought it up, several times. He is pandering, it wasn't a honest mistake. He has coveted the votes of those who would publically display the Confederate flag and his supporters have chastized Dick Gephardt who said he valued the votes of those who would put an American flag on their trucks. It's a stark choice.

[Padraig18]

35. It's not.

Only zealots take the remark out of context and put it in such black-and-white terms--- just like the Repukes would do.

[billbuckhead]

42. Dean brought the Confederate flag to a healthcare debate

There is no good reason to use this symbol to reach out to whites alienated from the Democratic party. It's pandering to a racist symbol, that is black and white.

[Padraig18]

44. Link? Citation? Photograph?

Well...?

[billbuckhead]

46. Dean could have put any bumpersticker on that pickup truck, but

he has repeatedly put the Confederate flag on it. It could have been a Dale Earnhardt's "3" or Jr's "8". It could have been a Bush/Cheney bumpersticker. It could be "I'm against abortion and I vote " bumpersticker. It could have been an infinite number of bumperstickers but Howard Dean has chosen to put a Confederate Flag on that truck.

[Padraig18]

51. Link? Citation? Photograph?

C'mon, I know you saw those 3 questions the first time. No more 'bob, weave and evade', please... unless you don't *have* a link, citation or photograph, which is what I suspect.

[billbuckhead]

54. Howard Dean did the same thing as Rush Limbaugh.

He brought the image of the Confederate flag for no good reason into a healthcare debate just as surely Rush for no good reason brought racism into a quarterback controversy.

[Padraig18]

58. Link? Citation? Photograph?

Are you deliberately ignoring those questions, just so you can 'preach' whatever unsubstantiated and out-of-context slurs you feel the need to get out there? Is Sen. Kerry's campaign so moribund that this is the best you can do--- repeat some factuallk\y-insupportable meme? Hmmm..? :eyes:

[billbuckhead]

57. Did your candidate Dean say "Confederate flag on the pickup truck"?

Spin spin spin spin as you might it won't come clean.

[Padraig18]

61. I'm waiting...

... despite your desperate evasion of the facts of the matter, in context. Do you Kerry folks need a definition of that phrase? How about a definition of 'floundering campaign'?

[billbuckhead]

76. I'm anti NRA and Dean has been endorsed 8 times by the TedNugent

crowd. I will never vote for someone who has "A" from the NRA. This Confederate flag gaffe is no surprise. I predict more kulturwar crap will come from Dean's mouth before he is rejected.

[LuminousX]

68. Dean did say 'confederate flag on the pickup trucks'

Now tell me why it is wrong to address 'those people' who 'have confederate flags on their pickup trucks'?

[Padraig18]

69. I'm sure some Kerry-ite will be happy to do so...

... even though their 'logic' will do contortions that would make Houdini green with envy... :eyes:

[billbuckhead]

72. Because the Confederate flag truly is something ANTI-AMERICAN!

Can't you Deanies get it.

[LuminousX]

80. So all those people who have Confederate Flag decals on their trucks are

Anti-American?

Will you please have the candidate you support stand up and say that?

They aren't. They are wrong and need to be shown why they are wrong, but you won't accomplish that by a)ignoring them or b)calling them anti-American.

They have family who fought in all the wars after the Civil War. They have sons, brothers, fathers dying in Iraq right now. Don't you think they deserve the same kind of compassion as we show everyone in that boat? Oh, right, they have a sticker on their vehicle you don't like. They MUST be racist. They MUST hate America. They should be spit upon, piked, and made an example of.

[peaceandjustice]

97. Do you believe all or even most...

people who display the confederate flag see it as anti-American? I don't. And while they may be ignorant about this one issue, they still need health care for their families, a strong economy, safe streets and confidence in federal fiscal responsibility.

There will be other venues for showing confederacy boosters the error they've made on that issue. I don't see why we should sacrifice a Presidential election over it. Especially since the Presidency has zero-impact on the confederate flag issue.

[loyalsister]

63. Actually he didn't

When Dean went to South Carolina early there was a boycott over the flag. He went down there to talk about health care and all anyone would ask him about was the flag.
The point is, there are people who are uninsured, unemployed and looking for a candidate. Can this flag issue really compare to the actual fact that there are basic needs that aren't being met? YET, Democrats will drag it out and drag it out as they have on this board. Not only that, they will suggest that some of the people who are unemployed don't deserve our attention because they have a confederate flag on their truck.
This is not something that should happen when we are all in this mess together. PRIORITIES people!

[bearfartinthewoods]

111. yup...the pubbies will try and use it as a weapon in the general

i really wish he would stop giving them ammo. talk about giving aid and comfort to the enemy.....wave the confederate flag in the face of the dem base....sheeeeesh.

[polpilot]

32. Vent...vent...vent....

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[Padraig18]

33. Yep!

Amazing how so many of the old-line progressives have their panties in a wad, isn't it? They don't like someone *they* didn't choose and who is NOT beholden to them--- witness the wailing and gnashing of teeth, not to mention the flame fest. LOL! :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

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[Padraig18]

37. Because...

... they hope to BEAT the certain Dem in question; it's not a matter of principle, you see, just plain old-fashioned greed and the desire to win at all costs.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DrFunkenstein]

47. Give Me A Po Boy Like Dean Anyday

Lots of pick up trucks in the Hamptons.

<>

[DianeK]

41. it's refreshing

that at least someone in this campaign doesn't seem to understand that you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows...and you don't need to go run and check poll numbers before making a statement...so i guess the point of this whole controversy is that the democratic party should now turn their backs on these americans as gephardt suggests?

[paulk]

45. the real point of this controversy

is the Democrats turning their backs on black voters who are going to be offended by Howard Dean's use of the confederate flag. Why do you think every other candidate criticized Dean over his statement? They know that the black vote is a hell of a lot more important to Democratic chances than the white, confederate flag vote. Because it will be a cold day in hell before those people vote Dem. , anyway.

[billbuckhead]

48. Living in 97% white Vermont, Dean doesn't even know what he said.

He's just feeding the alligator, making the rightwingers stronger as he feeds people who are against the Confederate flag to the beast. Which loyal liberal Americans are next? Those on the NRA blacklist? Hispanics? National Organization of Women? Who does Howard Dean feed next to the alligator?

[Name removed]

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[DemDogs]

49. By "these Americans" do you mean

African-Americans, as Dean implicitly proposes?
Or do you mean confederate flag lovers who aren't voting Democratic under any circumstances BECAUSE we embrace diversity?

[billbuckhead]

52. Dean is telling those against the CFB that they have nowhere to go

He'll sacrifice long held Democratic party principles in an attempt to bring the Confederate flag/NRA crowd in to the tent and were just supposed to take it. The rebel flag is now part of the Rainbow coalition according to Dean.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[bearfartinthewoods]

112. NO!!! the point of this controversy is that it didn't need be a controver

yes we need southern dems.
yes, southern dems need us.

there was no reason, NONE, to drag the flag and race into this issue.

he blew it. he created this fight. instead of talking about the lack of affordable heathcare, what was the news cycle about?

dumb...

[Bread and Circus]

50. It is kind of weird for Dean to be all about....

exciting the base, then saying what he said.

I still can't figure him out.

He's still my #2 guy though...

[SahaleArm]

56. He's easy to figure out.

Howard Dean is all about Howard Dean; he wants to get elected.

[killbotfactory]

59. Unlike those other saps who are just running for shits and giggles

Dean is serious about winning.

[Padraig18]

64. What if he had said 'guys in seed caps' or 'cowboy boots', e.g.?

IN CONTEXT, that's all he said, no more and no less. :shrug:

[paulk]

74. but that's not what he said

He said "confederate flag", one of the most divisive symbols in American history.

"Confederate flag" carries with it a whole subset of meanings - like slavery, like racism, like intolerance. Is Mr. Dean reaching out to these people, people who embrace concepts opposed to everything the Democratic party stands for, or is he the naive Gov. of a small northeastern state, who doesn't understand the emotional weight of a symbol like the confederate flag and is clearly not ready for the national stage?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

77. Yes he used the words "Confederate Flag"

Is that what bothers you so much? That he uttered the words? I love all these posts where it's been stretched to mean that Dean "glorified" or "legitimized" the CF. He did not.

Do you deny that this segment of Americans exists (white southerners with CF stickers on their cars)?

Do you deny that they have been royally screwed by Bush & Co. as far as health coverage and employment?

If so, maybe you have a point.

[paulk]

82. what are you talking about?

Was your post a response to mine? Because I really don't see how what you wrote has any relationship to what I wrote, other than it being a generic "trash anyone who dares criticize Dean" post.

I said nothing about Dean glorifying or legitimizing the Confederate flag, so your talking point misses the mark.


I will respond to what you wrote, however.

I don't deny that white southerners with CF stickers exist; I do question whether any democratic candidate needs to seek their vote in such a way as to alienate a far more valuable voting block for the Democrats, that being the black vote.

Using a loaded symbol like the Confederate flag WILL alienate many of these voters, and the number of votes gained will IMHO be negligible.

I think this is a naive political blunder on Dean's part.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

86. Your complaint was that he said "Confederate Flag" rather than...

using some other symbol to make his point. Because he did not praise or glorify the symbol, it didn't bother me at all, he was just making a point. In fact this point was CHEERED by Dems when he used it in a speech many months ago.

But indeed I was responding less to your post and more to the general tone of the complaints against Dean about this issue; many people have said that he is "glorifying" or "legitimizing" the CF, which is ridiculous. He merely used the symbol to describe a particular subset of voters who do in fact exist.

My take on this is that if you are inclined to dislike Dean, it's easy to construe his statement as inflammatory and a blunder. If you are inclined to like Dean, you are able to understand that his point was about a subset of southern white voters who have traditionally voted for Bush but who have in reality been screwed by his policies. Whether Dean seeking their vote will backfire remains to be seen.

Just seems curious that there was no outrage when he used this symbol months ago in a Dem meeting but all of sudden when it's popular to bash Dean -- pow! Politics is a funny business.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[RevolutionStartsNow]

95. LOL

Except on Tuesdays and Thursdays, when NOT defending Dean is seen as "weak" and proves that we don't know the truth about our candidate.

[Padraig18]

78. that's ridiculous.

Not 1:1000 of those folks believe in *any* of that stuff, and it's only your floundering campaigns that think it does. Trust me, it looks like desparation and cheap political opportunism to the rest of America... :eyes:

[paulk]

83. my political campaign?

I'm not running for anything....

Also, I speak only for myself, Padraig, not the rest of America, like, apparantly, you do.

[chimpymustgo]

66. My, my, my. Nail on head. Whatever Dean THINKS it takes to get elected.

Please, please, let the Democratic party stand for more than this.

Howard Brush Dean doesn't have a clue on race/ Southern politics.

When asked about S.C. flying the Confederate flag, he hemmed and hawed, kicked his shoe in the dirt, and sheepishly proclaimed it "a state issue".

Yuck.

[Padraig18]

67. How many lose/lose issues should we put in our platform this time?

It *is* a state issue; why pick a side in a fight that you're bound to lose either way? :wtf:

[billbuckhead]

71. Dean has in defacto way disqualified himself with these flag remarks

Dean has disqualified himself in a defacto sense. Karl Rove can now easily supress black turnout by reminding them of Deans remarks. Howard is now damaged goods.

[Padraig18]

73. Thank you for your enlightenment.

I am sure all Blacks allow you to speak for them. How could we have ever been so foolish as to assume that Blacks could possibly differentiate between remarks made in context and what you paternalistic, liberal guardians of truth and light tell them they mean?

Silly us. :eyes:

[billbuckhead]

79. You don't have to be black to know the Confederate flag is bad

It's shameful how the Dean people have taken such a indefensible and repugnant position. Morality aside, you have admit it's a powerful sound bite to have Dean saying he wants to be the candidate to pickup truck drivers with Confederate flag bumperstickers.

[Padraig18]

81. What's shameful is...

... the cheap, crass political opportunism posing as outrage on the part of the floundering candidates. Odd that you folks *just* discovered this line in a standard stump speech that's been around for months... :eyes:

[billbuckhead]

87. I've been talking about it since he first said it. It's part of a pattern

by Dean of ducking tough issues and pushing it off on "states rights". But what do you expect from someone who has been endorsed by the NRA eight times.

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. the state's rights thing

can't work on guns. you can't keep a gun from crossing stste borders.
this has to be a national standard.

[DemDogs]

89. And that's suppose to make it better?

Face it: Dean doesn't get racial issues. That doesn't make him a racist. I don't think he is. I also don't think he realizes that these people he is talking about ARE racists. And make no mistake, they are.

[DianeK]

84. excuse but....

the confederate flag's history goes way before it turned into a symbol of hatred and there are people of the south who remember it to be a symbol of their honor

[SahaleArm]

88. Right.

Dean's looking for the historian vote or the Southern aristocrat vote?

[MercutioATC]

102. We'll win by stressing our similarities, not our differences.

We promote the message that we all have the same needs and should be working together regardless of our religion or the color of our skin. That's exactly what Dean did. He did NOT promote a southern racist platform. He said that those who display the Confederate flag and southern blacks should be working together because, despite their differences, their common needs are more important.

People keep saying that Dean is "promoting" racism and "pandering to" southern Confederates. When did he say ONE thing positive about displaying the Confederate flag? He simply used two groups that are traditionally seen to be at odds with each other to illustrate that regardless of our differences, our similarities are more important.

How this is viewed as anything other than a message of inclusion is beyond me.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

75. Wishful thinking

And I love these posts where people suggest that Rove/Bush are going to "use this one against Dean." These guys don't need ammunition, they are going to fight dirty against ANY candidate we put up there. Clark, Kerry, Dean, Gep, whoever it is is going to get hammered every day with lies and quotes taken out of context (which is all this is).

[LuminousX]

85. So which candidate in Congress is sponsoring legislation to ban it?

[DemDogs]

90. To ban what? The confederate battle flag?

Ban it from where? Everywhere? Heard of the First Amendment?
I hope none of them are.

[LuminousX]

92. LOL... Good Point

First Amendment. So people have the right to have the confederate flag on their trucks. These people are also voters. These people have lived in poverty due to Republican policies, yet they still vote Republican becuase Republicans tell them their poverty is caused by blacks.

Dang, I wish someone would come forward, vocalize and address that problem.

[DemDogs]

93. That is not the seed

First, it is naive to think confederate flags are limited to the vehicles and homes of the impoverished. That is not true.

Second, Republicans in the South do not tell the confederate flag crowd that their economic problems are "caused by blacks" -- this is much more complicated an issue than that and it even varies by region within the South. The flag is a symbol of rebellion from a number of things (one of which is often described as "pompous Yankee liberals" -- no kidding, google that) that has happened to the Southern way of life. A number of Southerners flaunt the flag because they don't want to be told who they have to live next to, who they have to work next to, who they have to go to school with. They would probably describe their racism as benign (although no such thing exists.)

Third is the definitely not benign racism. A number of those toting the flag are members of the 500+ extremist white supremist groups that cannot be reached by telling them that the Democrats are going to make their economic situation better unless you are also going to tell them that you are expelling African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans and Asian-Americans. There is no rationale discussion with this portion of the population. And, although I don't know this, I suspect this group is the mostly economically disadvantaged of the confederate flag supporters.

It is the Republican Party's tolerance of their intolerance that appeals to them. Do you want to match them? I don't

[LuminousX]

94. But this is what Dean is saying on the issue

Link 1
"All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

Link 2
"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Link 3
"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

Link 4
During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

“When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,” he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.”

[RevolutionStartsNow]

96. From link 4: Dean is "the one unafraid to take on controversial issues"

Yep. That's Dean.

And I think this fracas may ultimately help Dean, because it will allow him to make this very good point over and over.

Thanks for posting those links.

[Oreegone]

100. Absolutely

Are these other candidates so far out of touch that they think this is like 10 guys with confederate flags on their trucks. Hell I even see pickups with these on them in Oregon. There has so be a whole hell of a lot more in the South. It doesn't mean the same to them as us Northerners the winners of the war.

As a black liberal political activist told me when he read the the stories of outrage by the other candidates and he quit laughing "They haven't really visited the south evidently." He saw nothing wrong with saying hey we all need healthcare regardless of our political beliefs, and I agree. Not everyone likes guns, pickup trucks or Southern flags but many Americans still own one or more of these, and they share the same rights.

GO DEAN:kick:

[mitchum]

99. kick

[polpilot]

101. It appears that Dean truly feels sorry for Kerry. To end one's political

career in this manner is really pathetic.

Dean '04..Empathy for the also-rans...

[billbuckhead]

103. If Deanies are going to copy the Gingrich lexiCON they'd be smarter

about pandering to white Confederate flag voters. Remember all Gingrichs words like failed, desperate, pathetic, obstructionist, out of touch, hell he had about 2 dozen he focus grouped for effect. A lot of Deanie rhetoric mimics Newt and that's no meme. But anyhow the Gingrich would never be so blatant as Dean in pandering to the Confederate flag as they're scared of black turnout. Even GeorgiaGoobernator "Sonny" Perdue with the luxury of fixed voting machines said he only wanted to put the Georgia flag which was 3/4's battle flag on a referendum. Then he screwed the flag lovers out of that because of pressure from Atlanta big business, so now we have an alteration of one of the more obscure Confederate flags. A lot of Republicans are against the flag for commericial reasons, it scares away business. Anyhow the repuKKKes are more wink-wink nudge-nudge about using this potent symbolism. I think Trippi knows this too in a half assed way and he knows that this flag bullshit won't work in the south but he knows he can con the true believers into thinking Dean can win in the South with this canard so they'll send more money in. After all it's the mother's milk of the Dean campaign.

[polpilot]

104. Vent...vent...vent...Kerry supporters need a new word. 'Pander' is losing

its effectiveness and appears trite.

Dean '04...The New Democratic leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[mbali]

108. The NEW Democratic Party

that attracts confederate flag racists leaves it wide open for other parties to pull away our base.

It seems that if Dean is so gung-ho to attract more voters to the Dems, he would make more of an effort (besides patronizing lip service about his love of hip-hop music) to energize the significant segment of our base that is already in our camp but aren't enthusiastic and likely not to vote because they don't believe the Democrats really give a damn about their issues?

Why not, instead of reaching out to a bunch of bigots, most of whom he's not likely to get anyway and who will just drive away other base voters in exponentially higher numbers, reach out to minorities? Why send the message that he's more comfortable with and interested in white bigots than black Democrats?

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polpilot]

106. ?

.

[LuminousX]

115. responding to 103, not you.

[Pez]

116. ok so where to next?