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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:45 AM
Original message
The Nerve of Dean
Who does this guy think he is? After decades of building support from "special" groups by denigrating others, he comes along and tells us there's nothing "special" about them at all.

The latest is his boneheaded remark about reaching out to Southern rednecks. After we've pointed out time and again that the majority of them are bigots, just look at that Confederacy flag that they adore, he wants to include them in our party. Surely our "special" group is bigger than this bunch, so why do we need them? Let's keep them pitted against one another and we win.

Go back a few months and we have Dean saying that we need an even-handed approach to the problems of the Mideast. Is he nuts? We all know that the majority of the Palestinians are terrorists. Again, our side is bigger and in this case much stronger, so it serves our interests to bestow a "special" status on them. The less said about restraint, the better.

You can also see it in his positions over the years of reviewing, for possible tweaks, the SS and Medicare programs. Doesn't he realize that a big part of our plan is to keep this "special" group on board even if we have to resort to fear tactics? The best plan of attack here is to let those programs go bust and then blame the other side. Dean just won't get with the program.

Finally, there's that "special", "special" group, the one that I belong to. Our hardcore activists have been fighting for years to legalize gay marriage. This guy comes along and tries to pull the rug right out from under our feet by insisting that it should be a states right issue. He wouldn't even legalize it in his own state, just giving us a pathetic civil union law in it's place. How will we ever move forward by taking half-steps?

It's pretty obvious that Dean would be bad for our party "as we know it", so be sure to vote for one of the other guys(gal) to stay on course. Let's keep winning those landslide elections.
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Sagan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. ya almost got me...

I was into my first sentence of a scathing rebuke before I caught on...

:P
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. He left out the kitten-eating thing, too.
:P
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Yeah, We Need "Convincing" and "Education"
We just don't know about Howard Dean's "horrible" record. You know, the one where 60% of Vermont babies go homeless in their first six months of life.

Vermont is maple syrup dairy cow ski lodge Hell. John Kerry told me so.

:evilgrin:

Seriously, when I write down, in exacting detail, exactly why I line up with Howard Dean on issue after issue, people seem to ignore that. Yes, I've done my homework, and that's exactly why I support the Good Doctor. Yet his rivals seem to keep plodding along, thinking "If only we tell people about Dr. Dean's record, they'll learn." Weird, isn't it?

Did you know he's to the right of Kucinich on trade?
Uh, yeah. So am I. Free trade is (generally) a Good Thing, and Dean (generally) supports free trade. Look in your history books to the time when the Republicans pushed Smoot-Hawley and helped exacerbate the Great Depression.

Did you know he favored the first Iraq War?
Yeah, I did. (So did Al Gore.) Saddam invaded another country and needed to be slapped down. Dozens of countries joined, and the U.N. coordinated. I hate war, but it was the right call. Unfortunately lots of Democratic candidates got it exactly backwards and voted for the second Iraq War.

Did you know he fought with his state legislature to keep spending under control?
Sure do. Vermont balanced its budget, even if it didn't have to by law. Dean saw to that. A solvent government is a progressive government. Broke governments can't sustain any social welfare.

Did you know Dean didn't hold a balloon drop celebration after he signed the civil unions bill?
Absolutely. Why rub his opponents' noses in it? Dean got that law to stick instead of getting reversed immediately. You bet that's a good thing.

Did you know Dean returned IBM's phone calls?
Of course. IBM is the largest private employer in Vermont, and they make microelectronics which save energy in every product they go in. They employ thousands of high-tech workers and pay them high salaries. They didn't export jobs to some third world country with lax environmental standards. You bet Dean returned their phone calls.

But IBM is the biggest polluter in Vermont. Why did Dean give them an award?
Because they're also the biggest employer in Vermont, so their per-capita emissions are excellent. Vermont produces less pollution than any other state, according to the EPA. And IBM keeps cutting their low emissions, so of course they deserve awards for that. Plus the products they make consume less electricity, require less cooling, save energy, and cut pollution.

And on it goes. Of course Dean isn't perfect, but considering that I've got Democratic candidates to pick from who voted for the Patriot Act and the 2nd Iraq War, "darn good" is looking really good.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. *Grin*
Spanx! :hi:
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. UFR - Great post..you had me going for awhile. nt
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. hehehehehe....
don't forget the koolaid!!!!

Right on target unfiggin!!!!!!!!!

This is the politics of exclusion and race baiting...but we like it cause it's our race baiting and exclusion.....

:evilgrin:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. Insensitive
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. Dean is an opportunist who hopped on the gay rights bandwagon
I'm sick of this mythology of him being a gay rights crusader. His political ambition is what kept him from signing the law in a public ceremony. The man's a coward. Meanwhile, all his "tweaking" of other items was about putting corporations ahead of people. You see, he wants to roll back Bush's tax cuts because he's too cowardly to tax those who can afford it: the corporations and high end brackets.

But the biggest problem Dean has is his cowardly approach to foreign affairs. Once he figures out exactly what his staff tells him his position on I/P/ME/Iraq should be, he adjusts the rhetoric to fit the message. Clue: We already have a president who depends on his staff to make his decisions for him.

Howard's a Coward. And no matter how incompetent Bush may be, America will not choose Dean over another ex-drunk from Yale.
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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Please.
NewYorkerfromMass:

Do you have a single link for anything in that post? Seems like a lot of hot air to me, especially the part about "another ex-drunk from Yale."
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. how 'bout...
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Welcome to DU, Clark!
NewYorkerfromMass:

Do you have a single link for anything in that post? Seems like a lot of hot air to me


And it only took you two posts to figure out a basic truth on DU!
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. hrmm...
he asked for a link and one was provided almost immediately that answers the exact question he had. Where's the hot air? What's the "basic truth on DU"?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I don't know what the basic truth is...
but a good dose of denial sure seems to come in handy.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Here's Dean: Hopping on the bandwagon of gay rights
Governor Dean Supports Gay Rights
Governor Howard Dean, in his State of the State Address before the Vermont Legislature on January 7th, included support for the full civil rights of lesbians and gays in his agenda for the current legislative session.

"I also ask this General Assembly to continue Vermont's strong tradition of civil rights by passing the gay rights bill so that no group of Vermonters suffers from bigotry and intolerance."


February 02, 1992

As Governor, Dean has historically sided with Vermont’s gay and lesbian community. He is credited with helping pass and ultimately signed into law legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He also supported the extension of benefits to the domestic partners of Vermont State employees. In 1994, Dean appointed Bill Lippert, an openly gay man, to fill a vacant seat in the House of Representatives. As a result of Vermont’s civil union law, The Advocate, a national gay newsmagazine, dubbed him the "Dean of Unions."

December 12th, 2002

"What I need to get across to the gay community and our allies is that Dean, although a centrist Democrat, has put himself on the line out there on civil unions and the community as a whole," Lippert stressed. "He has steadfastly recognized civil unions as a civil rights issue. I absolutely support his re-election despite differences on other issues. This is not the time for gays and lesbians to turn our backs . He has earned our support over and over."

September, 2000

OITM: Immediately after the Supreme Court’s Baker ruling, you sided with domestic partnership legislation. How did you come to make this decision and what role do you think your position played in the ultimate outcome of the debate?

Dean: I knew that marriage was impossible and that the legislature would just kill themselves. They couldn’t do it; they’d fall into terrible disarray. I thought the court decision left civil union as a legal alternative, which would grant the rights and the benefits, as they required. I thought that in time Vermonters would come to accept that. In the end, I think my position gave cover to a lot of people in the legislature. It really helped legislators who were struggling with the issue.

OITM: When you finally announced your position, you said that gay marriage made you "uncomfortable like everyone else." Can you clarify what you meant by that and specifically what about gay marriage makes you uncomfortable?

Dean: The truth is that it is the politics that made me uncomfortable. (Personally) I’m sure that I have the same hang-ups that lots of people have on the issue. But it is a matter of equity. I remain convinced that of the 50 percent of people who are opposed to this, that half of those are fundamentally decent human beings and this is just a vast change for them that they’ve never considered before. I consider those people people who will ultimately accept the equality of gays and lesbians and stop marginalizing them. Those are the people that I have to speak to.


June, 2000

Is there any gay or lesbian voter who would not stand in line on Election Day to vote for Governor Dean? If I were eligible to vote in Vermont, I would literally crawl, swim, walk over hot coals (whatever I had to do) to cast my vote for him. I realize that I am the ultimate "flatlander" "a Texan" but also I have been a political activist in our movement for 29 years. I know this is true: we must, we absolutely must stand up for those who have stood for us. Howard Dean backed civil unions and signed the bill that gave ALL of us in the United States the most sweeping set of legal rights in our lifetime.


October, 2000

Some BLTG people in Vermont may feel that Anthony Pollina is more sympathetic and responsive to our community, but the political reality of the civil union legislation as being only a part of a national movement for our civil rights is that we need to stick by and vote for Howard Dean.

If we as a voting bloc are seen as having turned our backs on Governor Dean for his reelection bid, it would send a message to politicians from sea to shining sea: BLTG voters desert their allies without provocation. Furthermore, if Dean loses the election it would send a message to politicians of every ilk: Allying with the BLTG community by helping implement groundbreaking legislation is political suicide.

I’m voting for Howie because I respect a man who can see past his discomfort with us and support our struggle for full civil rights. (Think about that for one second: it’s a greater act of courage to champion the rights of a group you are uncomfortable with.) His infamous remark to the effect that: I’m as uncomfortable with homosexuality as anyone else or some such never bothered me at all. I considered it to be a remarkably candid statement coming from a politician. He doesn’t have to love me, he just has to understand that I deserve a seat at the table, and act to help me occupy my seat. (How many BLTG people do you know who can’t be bothered to work for their own rights?)


October, 2000

As I reported in the January edition of Out in the Mountains, seventeen GLBTQ youth met with Governor Howard Dean this past November. He expressed great support for gay/straight alliances and took a firm stand against homophobic harassment in schools. "At the meeting with Governor Dean," accounts Cindy Marcelle, a teenager from New Haven, "I stopped seeing him as a man on the 6:00 news. I started seeing him as a father, an ally; and most of all, as a friend." Since then, Dean has written a letter to school principals in support of GLBTQ youth and worked with Marc Hull, the Commissioner of Education.

June, 1998

OITM: Would President Dean have signed the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA)?

Dean: No.

OITM: What is your position on the bill proposed by Nancy Sheltra (R-Derby) that would make same gender marriage in Vermont illegal?

Dean: I don't support that. I think we have to see what the courts say before we react preemptively. There is a very difficult issue here and that is that the institution of marriage, from a non religious point of view, provides a huge number of civil rights that are not available to people who are not married. That issue has to be addressed. If it isn't going to be addressed in terms of marriage, it has to be addressed a different way. But I don't think it is appropriate for the legislature to get involved until we know what the ground rules are.


May, 1998


Associated Press, 05/08/98 01:03

EAST MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) - It's not necessary to approve of other
peoples' sexuality, but it's vital to treat others with tolerance and
civility, Gov. Howard Dean told students at U-32 high school.

Adolescence is especially difficult for gays and lesbians because that
is when everyone is discovering their own sexuality, and also when
people want the most to fit in with their peers, Dean told about 580
students in grades 9-12 on Thursday.

``Sexual identity is a very difficult issue; it's an issue that lots
of kids, whether they are gay and lesbian or whether they are
straight, struggle with, particularly through adolescence,
particularly in high school,'' Dean said. ``The fact that someone is
different, has a different sexual orientation, and is in a very
significant minority makes those folks have to stand up to enormous
amounts of pressure.''

Dean spoke at the high school at the request of Principal Inga Duktig,
who said the governor's talk was to her ``a golden opportunity for a
government official to deliver an important message to our student
body about civil rights.''

In her two years at U-32, Duktig said, she's known of incidents where
gay students were harassed. The school has a policy prohibiting
harassment on the basis of disability, marital status, national
origin, race, religion, sex or sexual orientation.

``Schools are just microcosms of society,'' she said. ``Oftentimes out
of ignorance, individuals act in ways that are offensive, and often
they do it unknowingly...without even understanding that some of that
may violate civil rights.''

Dean told the students that when he was their age, racial epithets
that would not be tolerated now were used regularly in conversation.

These days in high school, he said, sexual epithets ``are tossed off
as if nothing was said, as if it's no big deal. That hurts.''

Dean asked students to think carefully about how their words might
hurt a listener. He asked them to be willing to learn tolerance.

``The reason people exhibit intolerance is because they're afraid.
They're afraid of what's inside themselves,'' Dean said. ``What I'm
here to do is to bring that out in the open, to talk about it... to
let you know that people who have gone before you have struggled with
these type of issues, that you are not alone.''

And he asked the students to acknowledge the courage of people who do
take a stand on issues like sexual orientation.

``Their road in life is not easy,'' he said.

After Dean spoke, students and teachers stepped to microphones to ask
Dean his views on issues including gay marriage and affirmative
action.

``That's one that I haven't figured out yet,'' Dean said about gay
marriage. ``That's a very difficult issue.''

Dean was also asked his view of a February citizens' referendum in
Maine that repealed a gay-rights law passed by the Legislature.

``I disagree with what the voters did in Maine, and it points up the
dangers of having a citizen initiative,'' Dean said.

And he said repeatedly that civil rights and affirmative action do not
give some groups special rights.

``We're not talking special privileges here; we're talking the same
privileges as the majority population,'' Dean said.

Several students applauded when one youth got up and said to Dean, ``I
think one man and one woman should be together.''

``I have no quarrel with that,'' Dean said. ``What I do have a quarrel
with is incivility and intolerance.''
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Yes you supplied a "single link"
but "Do you have a single link for anything in that post? Seems like a lot of hot air to me, especially the part about "another ex-drunk from Yale." is asking for more than substantiation of the ex-drunk from yale statement. Care to go for this statement?

"You see, he wants to roll back Bush's tax cuts because he's too cowardly to tax those who can afford it: the corporations and high end brackets."
it makes no sense whatsoever.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. the single link
goes to an article in which Dean himself discusses his past. He's got a new book coming out in which he discusses it. Would three different links suffice? Four? Why not one?

:shrug:
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Hey I'm not denying his past
But that was only part of what NYfromMass mentioned. What about the rest... like the quote I picked out? Anyway I know you aren't part of the negative crowd... so I shouldn't be pickin on ya. I noticed NYfromMass hasn't bothered to come back...
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. you'll have to ask him...
somebody asked for a link, specifically mentioning his drinking past. I had just read that article this morning, so I posted it.

I'm neither attacking nor defending Dean. Just providing the info I saw earlier.
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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. Not one and the same
It really didn't address the exact question I had. Getting drunk from time to time and being a drunk --- implying alcoholism --- are quite different things. But thanks for the link.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. well...
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:37 PM by Dookus
I'm sure I'll get flamed on this, but this is as close as I've EVER come to a negative comment about Dean...



How does his explanation, as reported here, differ in any substantial way from George W. Bush's explanation of his past?

*************
"Once we were 18, we could indulge in lazy days of 'Baseball and Ballantine,'" Dean writes. "We'd buy some beer and put it in a garbage can of ice and play softball all day long. If you hit somebody's beer with a batted ball, it was an automatic out."

After he got married, "I quit drinking," he writes. "When I drank, I would drink a lot and do outrageous things, and then I wouldn't drink again for a while. I realized that what was very funny when you're 18 is not very funny when you're 30. I had a terrible hangover after my bachelor party, which didn't help. So I quit. Drinking served no useful purpose in my life, and I just got tired of it. I haven't had a drink in over 22 years."

Dean spokesman Jay Carson said that while his candidate violently disagrees with Bush on most things, "He agrees with him that his younger days were his younger days - and he's going to leave it at that."

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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. That's OK
I just disagree with you're interpretation of the story.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. several ways
One, unlike Bush, no negative consequence is sited at all, let alone sited and then ignored (like Bush's DUI). That is a benchmark test for alcoholism.

Two, Bush supposedly has been sober since 1988 which is not even 15 years. Dean has been sober at least 7 years longer and due to the wedding video I believe more like 12 years longer. Time isn't everything but it is alot.

Three, Dean cleaned up his act at a much younger age. Many college students do what Dean did. Few adults do what Bush, and for that matter I, did.
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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. Thanks, AWD!
I've been lurking for a while...thought it was time to get in and mix it up a bit. See ya around!
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
45. Dean admitted he drank too much
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 06:39 PM by mandyky
at one time, and quit in the early 80's. Now he doesn''t even drink coffee. I don't have links but it has been mentioned in a few articles. Not sure I'd classify him as a "drunk" though.

Try googling for the article
The Unlikely Rise of Howard Dean - that may be one of the articles that mentions he quit drinking.

Yep - here it is - http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/n_8376/

<snip>
But the most revealing keepsake in this room is a collage of beer coasters, which Dean collected as an exchange student in England at age 17. It’s a memory of another life. Asked about Dean’s student hobbies, Dawson offers an amused reply: “Well, he drank.” Not anymore. “I quit drinking when I got married in 1981,” Dean says later. “I didn’t think I handled liquor well. Actually, I drank beer. I tended to misbehave. I had a hangover the next day.” He won’t elaborate but says he was never arrested for drunk driving, and there is no alcoholism in his family. “What’s funny when you’re 18 isn’t funny when you’re 30, so I just quit.”
</snip>
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. The man's a coward.
Hah!

thats probably the best one I have seen yet.

you guys need a new hoby this one is going no where.
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delhurgo Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
11. Everybody is making a big deal out of this confederate flag...
remark, but I think its the smartest thing I've heard him say yet. Now if he would just stop calling for a complete repeal of all the tax cuts he may have a chance.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. smart
if he can win without a single southern state.
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delhurgo Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Granted, it was a clumsy attempt to reach out. But I believe he...
...meant well. He'll apologise, explain himself, and soon enough it'll be forgotten. Nobody's paying attention yet anyhow. He'll learn from this. But what it shows is that he understands he must move right and cannot win without the south. Lets hope he comes up with a southern strategy with more substance and avoids similar statements in the future. It looks like he's gonna be the nominee; you might as well get use to it.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. OK
we'll surrender.;)
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a_lil_wall_fly Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Oh soooo true
Dean needs to have solid showing in each and every southern state plus win a one or two states to have any chance to get the nod at convention.
The flag thing is a hot topic...I think he is trying to reach those 16%+ undecided in each of the southern states.
I wish for him too choose his word a lil more wisely.
Most of the flaming against each canidate is based on the wording and the views of the context on the listener.
My mind is still wide open on field, but Edwards(watching and listening)-Braun(not really sniping at the other canidates)-Sharpton(keeping the issues lively) are rising and Lieberman(too bitter)-Clark(questionalbe past from Europe)-Gephardt(a lifer in the spotlight) are falling.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Context of the listener
such as that context being that I'm from the south and may have some idea how it may go over.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Dean reached out to Confederate flag lovers, not rednecks
At least half of rednecks in the south aren't for the Confederate flag. Dean caricatatured southern white male pickup truck drivers as racists plus gave Rove a soundbite for the ages. This guy Dean is not ready for prime time at best, at worst, he has been endorsed 8 times by the NRA and he never complained. One wonders how different are is racial ideas than Charlton Heston or Ted Nugent?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Over-the-top NONSENSE!
Dean did NOT characterize Southern pickup drivers as racists-- YOU did, in YOUR post. It is YOUR contention that the CF is 'racist', not Howard Dean's...
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Is this the official Dean position? The Confederate flag is not racist!
:puke: Very few southerners have Confederate paraphenalia on their vehicles. Dean could have made much more headway using NASCAR or hunting, but he delibertly chose this symbol of intolerence. I've come to think he did not reach out to southern white males as this approach is so blatantly insincere and it should be obvious to all that this anti-minority. I think he did to play his bases stereotypes about the south to raise more $$$$ from his Pavlov dog supporters.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. He choose the symbol to neutralize
a Republican talking point.

But you can cherry pick your facts all you want. You've made up your mind already so discussion really is pointless.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. He'll evolve by Friday
Nothing to worry about.
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dofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. The thing about the confederate flag
is that a lot of people (way too many in my opinion) who are otherwise quite reasonable in their social and political views, still defend the flag. I disagree with them most strenuously. Which means I'd be likely to alienate them if I were a candidate. Someone running for high office needs to soothe a lot of people and unruffle a lot of feathers. That ought to be considered a good trait to have.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Since all these threads gravitate
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 02:21 PM by mmonk
to the flag issue and everybody has had their say, I'll bow out. My contention is that the imagery given by Dean is offensive to some of us in the south. We realize however, he doesn't mean anything negative (at least some of us). My criticisms weren't attacks, but assessments as to the wisdom of its usage. I was giving it honestly.

I realize there are some that won't get it. It was the way you have been taught to think of the south, because of its past. Fine, but just realize painting people with a broad stroke isn't taken well no matter how intended.

I believe Dean is a fine man. Lets leave it at that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. bored over at your own discussion forum?
you'll soon be history so get in your "best shots" while you can.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. ha ha, he/she was being tombstoned as I posted!
:toast:
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. What did Deleted Message say?
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
31. The trouble is that his followers don't look at his real positions
When they do, theyl'll stay home or switch. Hopefully it won't be too late by then.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Oh really?
:eyes:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
46. Kick
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
47. kick
:kick:
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Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
48. *Applauds* Thank you, thank you!!
Nicely put. I feel better.
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