Bill Press is insensitive

[unfrigginreal]

I just saw him on MSNBC saying that Dean's latest comments were the right move to win in the South. Something about, some Southerners that view the Confederate flag as a symbol of heritage and not racism. Well we sure don't need them if they are too stupid to realize that that flag can only represent racism and nothing else.

How insensitive of Bill. Tsk tsk.

[mitchtv]

1. I'm sure there are several hundred

who think it is a Proud heritage thing.

[mmonk]

2. I don't believe Bill is southern,

is he? Take a que from us who are. Not wise (I'm not bashing, so don't take it that way).

[pocoloco]

4. Nope, he's from the Left Coast.

[mmonk]

9. Bingo

he can't relate.

[andyjackson1828]

11. Bill is from Delaware, originally.

[mzmolly]

30. So you represent every southern individual?

Nah.

[meegbear]

3. So the swastika isn't about evil and hatred ...

it's German heritage, right?

[genius]

8. Good point. The swistika actually has more merit than the Confederate

flag. Reversed it is the Sanskrit symbol for peace.

[polpilot]

14. I thought the confederate flag was the flag of the Conferate States of

America???? but you would compare it to Hitler??????????

Quite a leap I'd say.

Dean '04...

[genius]

20. The Southern States withdrew for racist reasons and any other excuses are

doublespeak. They knew Licoln would end slavery and they made it known that if this abolitionist were elected and formed the Confederacy, where they could continue to practice the worst form of racism. How more racist can this symbol get?

The swastika is a backwards peace symbol which was mis-used by Hitler.

If you have any questions about why slavery and the South's support of it was racist, I'd be glad to post a history of the subject.

[polpilot]

27. Just don't tell children that swatikas and the flag of the Confederate

State are related. Keep that to your 'genius' self.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of the NEW Democratic Party.

[dsc]

40. They knew no such thing

Lincoln campaigned not on ending slavery but containing it. There was a pure anti slavery candidate in the race, and he wasn't it.

[JohnKleeb]

41. Are you sure about that?

Not a flame on you dsc one bit but the other 3 candiates in 1860 werent so, now in 1864 there was someone I think, I could be wrong. None the less, the vast majority of the south couldnt stand Lincoln. The flag is offensive to me and thats all I have to say about it.

[No More Shrub]

53. Saying the civil war was just about slavery

is like saying the current war in Iraq is just about oil. Both of those are big parts of why each happened but there were many others as well. It doesn't make either right, but you are making it more cut and dry than it acctually is. One of the main issues was states rights and how the same laws which helped an industrialized north hurt an agracultural south. There were also a lot of people who fought not for slavery but to protect their homes from invasion by a hostile army. There is nothing racist about that. I'm not denying that the Confederate flag has become a racist symbol, but the civil war is a more complicated issue than you make it out to be.

[kang]

47. The Confederate Flag was brought back

during the Civil Rights movement as a sign of defiance to desegregation efforts. It wasn't just a symbol of the Civil War, which WAS about slavery, but also a long legacy of Jim Crowe and racial oppression. It's a symbol that brings with it alot of pain and memories of hate. Please consider reading up on this.

I watched Dukes of Hazard too and thought the car was cool, but I was 10 and didn't know what the flag meant. Howard Dean, on the other hand, is a grown man vying to be the leader of the most racially diverse country in the world. If he really understood what the flag symbolized, he would've acknowledged right away that the comment was a mistake.

[genius]

5. People who support Dean lose their sense of right or wrong or else

they quit his campaign. If racism is okay with Dean, to too many of his followers, it's the new way to win the Presidency.

[benddem]

6. This isn't about racism

Dean makes this comment meaning those guys the ones with the guns and the trucks are poor and their children don't have health insurance and need to vote for Democrats. God some people are so eager to find fault. The conservative is a symbol for poor southern white males who vote for Reptiles
Get a grip

[mmonk]

12. Do the poor and those without healthcare

in other states have pick ups and gun racks?

[genius]

13. This is about racism and everyone who is offended by that racist

symbol knows it. It's the same thing as saying that he wants to appeal to the people wearing the white shirts. Some of them may need better health insurance too. Especially after those opposed to racism get through with them. I'm a real pacifist. But racism really gets to me and all these excuses for racism are garbage.

[unfrigginreal]

16. So, I guess we ought to kick Missouri and Mississippi out of the Country?

Poll suggests majority of Mississippians like their current flag

By The Associated Press

RAYMOND, Miss. - Two-thirds of Mississippians say they prefer the current state flag over a new design that removes the Confederate battle flag from the top corner, according to a poll about an issue voters will decide in a week.

http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/94/132/01_93_m.html

----
Btw, they voted to keep the flag. Or how about Missouri:

Poll: Missourians support displays of Confederate flag at historic sites

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- Two-thirds of Missourians oppose the recent decision by Missouri officials to take down the Confederate flag at two state historic sites where the flag has flown for decades, according to a new poll.

http://newstribune.com/stories/020803/sta_0208030923.asp

[JohnKleeb]

18. No they dont deserved to be kicked out of the country

The flag offends me for one, yes I know I am white and maybe it shouldnt but it does. I am really do apologize but it does, that flag represents a horrible time in our nation's history. I dont think all who wave it are bigots but I do think in more ways than not the flag is offensive. I am also a Southerner keep in mind but only by birth really, I am not really much of one in other ways. I also had a relative in the civil war, fought for the 123rd PA. That flag offends me honestly, I am sorry it really does. Those people have the right to have it on their private property I dont doubt but I cant doubt the fact that the flag offends me.

[mmonk]

19. No

be sensitive as to how it will be taken and by whom. African Americans in the south don't look at it as a proud heritage thing. Many southern whites will look at this as a putdown. Yes, there may be some who misguidedly link it to just heritage. And then there are some that are racist. Appeal to the poor another way.

[benddem]

35. You're wrong

[MissMarple]

29. Dean's a good guy. The rest of you guys need to practice tolerance.

bigannie is right about what Dean meant. If you are looking for a fight, I'd like to point you in George's diection. I think an arguement could be made that his policies have a direct and harmful effect on minorities.

Please, these comments are inaccurate and debilitating to the overall well being of DU. If we can agree to disagree about that confederate battle flag that Hollywood has so popularized and at least understand that it means different things to different people, we will have done a good thing. On emotional issues of this sort, it easy to loose a sense of perspective. We have real enemies, we don't need to create them from folks on our own side.

If you still feel the need to argue, perhaps you could reexamine your democratic beliefs, and even your impulse to drag a fellow democrat down. This is not a playground. We have serious work to do.

Please.:D

[genius]

33. I guess we should also be tolerant of David Dukes

How do we expect to pick up minority voters if we nominate a guy who can't control his mouth? Or are we just going for the white vote?

[MissMarple]

36. Why would you guess something like that?

You aren't sounding like a liberal or a progressive, and your understanding of cultural differences appears, from your comments here and on the other Dean flaming threads, to be more than somewhat meanspirited and rudimentary.

There are better ways to make your point. Dem bashing isn't one of them.

[kang]

48. I'm sorry but I disagree

I respect your goal of unifying to defeat the GOP next year, but I respectfully disagree that this isn't a big deal. The fact that he didn't apologize and didn't see why that might have been appropriate is deeply disturbing to me as a minority. I think if we as a nation will be for the forseeable future electing white males or white persons to the Presidency, it's important to know how sensitive that leader is to minority concerns.

We're not creating enemies here, but making sure the candidates understand that they need to hear us and respond with a certain level of respect. My belief in the democratic party is solid and I think this debate, if anything, has made me realize how far so-called "liberal media" has still to go on race issues and perhaps some of my liberal compatriots here on DU. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those minority people who gets off on feeling superior to white people, nobody has a monopoly on racism and prejudice.

However, I think this country needs to talk more honestly about race and we're simply not going to be able to do that if there's always some reason/excuse not to. As Frederick Douglass said, "Without struggle, there can be no progress." Sorry for the preachiness, but I'm just a little shocked at how some have reacted to this.

[Hieronymus]

7. I'm glad

that Bill Press said that he agrees with Dean, I do as well.
The Confederate flag is certainly a symbol of heritage to most Southerners. Unfortunately it has been taken hostage by racist groups, somewhat like the American flag has been taken hostage by the right wingnuts.
The Democrats will never win the South again unless changes in attitude toward them are changed.
Bill Press :yourock:

[sandnsea]

10. He's been for Dean for a while

I'm not surprised.

[mmonk]

15. I think I need to bow out again

nicely (sheesh, I can't help it sometimes).

[Demobrat]

17. We need everybody. Even if they are too stupid to agree with you.

We need blacks, whites, browns, yellows, greens, gays, metrosexuals, women, blue collars, white collars and Confederate flag waving racists. Discrimination is discrimination, even when it's against people we don't like.

[mmonk]

21. Fine then

he needs to go appeal to voters in the northeast or midwest in the same manner then.

[billbuckhead]

22. McKinney vs Dean vs Bush

If we nominate Confederate flag panderer Dean, that's the future. Kiss at least half of minority voters goodbye. A lot of white people aren't happy about this either. BTW, when is the DU Confederate Battle flag avatar ready?

[Demobrat]

38. Why?

Do they fly the confederate flag?

[mmonk]

24. Variants could be used

like he could go to Manhattan and say I want all you Archie Bunker types from New York to vote for me. I'll do more for you than those Repub's.

[unfrigginreal]

34. How does that help your argument?

Maybe I don't fully understand what you've been saying, but I thought that you were making the argument that Dean was stereotyping all Southerners by appealing to a segment of them. Are you now saying that New Yorkers would be offended if Dean made the Archie Bunker pitch? Most New Yorkers wouldn't feel that it applied to them so they wouldn't give a damn.

[izzie]

23. I lived in the South and they love that flag

I never got it, the nation was defeated.You never saw Hitler's flag in Eur. and I was their when their was still piles of building in the street after the war.SC used to have it up in the kids class rooms and at the school higher than the US flag. Why would you wish to flag a flag the shows you were beat and have no country but the USA?I really do not under stand it so I say just let it be. It is some type of Southern thing.It is like we in US do not like to face the fact we could not win in Vietnam any more than the Brits could face the fact that they could lose to a half baked army like we were. Face it good and big armies do not always win. Sometimes the reason becomes very important and beats the army.

[mmonk]

25. true

however I live in the Triangle area of N.C. with a metro population of a million. Its one of the top areas of the country for Phd's per capita. People mainly drive SUV's and you don't see rebel flags flying. I just don't think that approach will work here.

[Wellong]

49. I live in Apex

and I see confederate flag bumper stickers on cars all day, every day, where ever I drive in this area.

[genius]

26. You mean it is a thing for the insensitive whites in the South. Try

taking a poll of the black southern people some time. Next,I suppose we should endorse burning crosses on people's lawns because it is another one of those traditions for insensitive whites. The national flag of the South was the U.S. flag until they stood up for racism.
Go see "Rosewood." The people who destroyed that town would probably agree with you. The more I learn about the history of the white people, the more ashamed I am to be white.

[billbuckhead]

32. All this Confederate flag appeasment is a disgrace to American history

I'm sitting as I type this in Cherokee County Georgia, where the native Americans trail of tears started. 15 miles away is where Leo Frank was lynched. We are definitely slouching toward the beast when we let this abomination of a symbol back into our national public life. But if it helps the Governor of Vermont get selected than the ends justify the means. This is the lowest point in DU's short history. i thought we were progressives on this board but obviously I was mistaken.

[sandnsea]

39. I understand

I didn't use to have an opinion one way or the other on the South and the Civil War and whether it was about slavery or states' rights and all the other craziness that exists down there. Until I read this, and some similar writings. And until it dawned on me that we still glorify the Plantation South and the Plantation Owner, when those plantations were actually built by slaves. Both the physical buildings and the financial empires that allowed them to be built at all. And we STILL don't do much to acknowledge that fact. White people really do have a strange way of believing our own press.

http://www.wfu.edu:/~matthetl/perspectives/eleven.html

[peaceandjustice]

43. the Nazi flag was banned in Germany after WWII (n/t)

[jmw25]

28. OUT OF CONTROL

This discussion, by west coasters and east coasters who have no business determining what the Confederate means to other people, needs to be put to a halt. Couple of things I want to say...1) I will no be voting for Dean in the primary, 2)I'm not from the South, 3) the Confederate Flag means more than just slavery to some Southerners, 4) to a large number of people, (African Americans in particular) the Confederate Flag is offensive because, to them, it represents the history of slavery.

For reason 4, I think it was incredibly stupid for Dean to make remarks about acknowledging the truck and flag demographic because of how insulting and hurtful it is to too many people. But you people who label all Confederate flag supporters as racist and ignorant are, in turn, making yourselves look as ignorant as they say the flag supporters are. The civil war was about more slavery. States like Virginia entered because they wanted to preserve state rights and disagreed with allowing a Northern army march through their territory to attack another state. As wars go, the losing side does not get to tell their side of the story, they lose some of their tradiiton, and they have their flag replaced. The appreciation of the confederate flag to some southerners, but obviously not all, is a recognition for their history. That does not make them racists, or NAZIS! so all you Dean supporters, stop trying to argue that what Dean said was acceptable or smart politics. It wasn't. It was offensive. And to everyone else making noise to try and shoot Dean down...stop. You're generalizations about other people's culture is juvenile. Democrats will never win the South when this is the type of conversation East and West coasters have about theri states

[genius]

31. With all due respect, the secession was in direct response to Lincoln's

election. If he had not been elected, there would not have been any secession. The only marching of the army before the start of the war was simply to bring some supplies safely to starving people who were isolated in a fort. The South fired the first shots.

[Bucky]

37. History lesson

Genius writes:
"With all due respect, the secession was in direct response to Lincoln's election.

Not exactly. South Carolina first talked about secession in the 1830s, when Lincoln was still splittin' rails. The South as a region began openly discussion secession for at least a decade before Aby's election because they knew that their political hold on the Electoral College was doomed by demographic trends.

If he had not been elected, there would not have been any secession.

If Lincoln had lost in 1860, then the Republicans would have won in '64 or '68. The election of an anti-extension or free soil candidate was an inevitability. Lincoln opposed pushing for freedom of the slaves in 1860 & thus was considered a moderate in Republican circles. By 1860 the South really was a different country culturally, politically, and economically from the North and MidWest.

The only marching of the army before the start of the war was simply to bring some supplies safely to starving people who were isolated in a fort. The South fired the first shots.

OK, that's true. But Lincoln wanted them to fire the first shots and certainly wanted the South to start the shooting. He was right to want to put the rebellion down, but politically wise in how he maneuvered the South into being the aggressor. His public stance in the run up to the war was only that the South had to reimburse the North for all the federal property they were taking possession of.

[genius]

42. Sorry. Talk and secession are two different things. Based on history,

secession only happened as a result of the reaction to Lincoln's election. Since Lincoln was elected in 1860, speculation about 64 or 68 is only speculation. The secession in response to the election of 1860 is a historical fact. Lncoln wanted to bring the south back peacefully and he would have done his best to work out a peaceful solution if the South hadn't fired first.

On the subject of talk, last year there was talk about California seceding from the United States. A petition was even circulated. However, we are still part of the United States.

[Wellong]

50. Correct me if I am wrong

but at the time of the south secceeding it was allowed under the Constitution, but post civil war, it is no longer allowed. So California could petition all day long, but they have no legal or Constitutional basis to secced.

Or am I just wholly wrong on this?

[w4rma]

44. I'm a Southerner and I *will* be voting for Dean.

And, IMHO, yes it is a heritage thing with many Southerners. For, myself, I could care less about the dang thing, but *I* understand that many other Southerners look at the flag in a historic light. Their... our... ancestors died for that short-lived nation who carried that flag into battle. That is how many folks see it.

I strongly believe that the battle flag should NOT be flown on public property or flown as part of a state flag. It's divisive as it was used by segregationists who flew it over state capitals to make their stand *for* racism. I *do* think that it is idiotic to try to win over Southerners, who consider the flag as a symbol of heritage rather than racism, by insulting them as I see many Dean bashers doing. But, then again, I'm not seeing where the Dean bashers actually *want* to win over these Southerners on an economic platform. The Dean bashers seem to want to push them away rather than appealing to them on economics that would benefit them.

[Wellong]

52. Stand for racism

It's divisive as it was used by segregationists who flew it over state capitals to make their stand *for* racism.

Like Fritz Hollings putting atop the South Carolina Captial Building.

[Mixxster]

45. Racist or heritage?

The appreciation of the confederate flag to some southerners, but obviously not all, is a recognition for their history.

It is my understanding that the confederate flag was not widely displayed in the south until the era of desegration. It seems to me that Southerners who are upset with the confederate flag being equated with hate should have protested when their fellow Southerners started using it to protest the civil rights movement.

[Wellong]

51. They did

It seems to me that Southerners who are upset with the confederate flag being equated with hate should have protested when their fellow Southerners started using it to protest the civil rights movement.

Southern heritage organizations (for lack of a better term) filed suit on several occasions against the KKK and other groups to try and prevent them from using the flag in their marches and the such. They lost on 1st amendment grounds. Rightly so, but unfortunate.

[Fleshdancer]

46. Touchy subject

long post, but just skip to the last paragraph if you're in a hurry...

disclaimer: I don't agree with waving around the confederate flag, and I wish Dean could have worded his comment differenly.

Having said that, there are people in the South who look at the confederate flag and see something completely different than I do. Sure, there are those who wave it because they're racist, ignorant assholes, but there are others who see it as a symbol of the struggle for states rights, to honor ancestors who fought for what they strongly believe to be freedom, and pride in being from the south.

There are many Southerners who will argue to their death that the civil war wasn't about slavery, but about state rights, and they will argue that black people fought and died under the confederate flag as well.

So what do we do about it? I would argue that the flag does more harm than good, and being a Southerner myself, I know for a fact there are other, less offensive symbols of Southern heritage, but how in the hell will I ever get my point across if there is absolutely no dialogue???

How does saying "we don't need them" and then turning our backs on a group of Americans help win the battle over racism? Did we actually think we could have a single Civil Rights Movement and a few years of affirmative action and then we would be done with it??? I wish tolerance were that simple, but it isn't. It's emotionally draining at times, and messy, but we can't afford to end the conversation over this issue with the very people we disagree with.

[OHdem10]

54. Beautiful Post--"Touchy subject"

Take time and quickly read through all these posts at once, One would wonder about Liberal and Liberal thought especially their degree of tolerance. We humans sometimes forget and do to others
what they would not want done to them. Sterotyping and lumping all southerners in one basket is not very liberal. We get very angry when the Right does something we see as intolerant.

Yes this is a very touchy. subject. It is sort like the abortion issue--no win situation. White Southerners who are not all racists see the flag one way. Our Black friends see it another way. Would it not be better
to ty to reach out to both and find areas of agreemnet and issues to work on together
than spend our time spewing venom about people and culture we do not fully understand.??? The Right Wing can spew enough venom for our country. Liberasl are better, I hope. I do not want to sound pollyannish--it is not my style but this sterotyping can war a person down.

[FrenchieCat]

55. I wrote Bill Press a letter today because

Bill Press also said: " It's either Dean or Gephard, maybe Kerry. I don't think Clark is in the running anymore".
Guess he knows who pays his bills. Can you say GE!
MY LETTER:
Dear Mr. Press, what is up with that statement included above? Most in the liberal Democratic Internet world already know that the GOP/Rove strategy, assisted by their stable of mediawhores, is to put Clark on ignore (in hopes that he will fade away) and to promote Howard Dean (so that he can lose to Bush).

Don't want to call you a mediawhore, but don't want to think that you are gullible to Karl Rove activism either.

So I am confused. Which is it? Is it bright MediaWhoredom lights for you or are you just totally out of touch with reality? My recommendation is that you get out more often.

While you ponder that thought, My husband and I have just logged on the Wes Clark website to contribute to his campaign, again.