Let's Compile A List of Attacks Dean Has Made On The Other Candidates

[DrFunkenstein]

Really, this thin-skinned hypocrisy is just too much to bear. I think it will be a very useful exercise to put together a compilation for these Dean supporters aghast at the shocking tactics of his rivals. Eventually, I'm sure we could establish some sort of timeline for Dean's fair and balanced treatment of the other candidates.

Try to include a date whenever possible.

Examples:

5/1/03 Backbone Transplant

Howard Dean, the doctor-turned-politician running for President, offered a diagnosis yesterday of the other top Democrats in the race: "They need a backbone transplant."

During a whirlwind day in New York City, Dean threw more of the rhetorical elbows that have begun to annoy his rivals for the party's nomination.

Chris Lehane, an adviser to Kerry, the four-term senator who polls show is a leading candidate in the race, said, "John Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service to his country. I really don't think that Howard Dean wants to get into a compare and contrast on courage and backbone."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/story/79844p-73391c.html

10/1/03 Clark The Republican

Howard Dean's repudiation of his alleged similarities to Newt Gingrich is not without comedic value. At the same time he has deemed comparisons to former speaker below-the-belt, he repeatedly blasts his fellow Democrats as "Bush-lite."

But the Gingrich shot seems to have gotten under his skin. On this morning's "Today" show, he lashed out: "Even Wes Clark, who was a Republican until 25 days ago, could not reasonably be compared to Newt Gingrich." This is a cheap shot worthy of a quick dissection. For starters, Wes Clark has declared time and again that he was a "non-partisan" during his military career. He says that he voted for Clinton and Gore. Howard Dean knows that Wesley Clark was never a registered, partisan Republican. Bob Schieffer even pointed it out to him last Sunday. But why let these facts get in the way of a good smear?

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=794

[helleborient]

1. Wake me up when you have a positive campaign to promote...

In the meantime I'll mention the national and international Dean Meetups Wednesday evening - the local grassroots efforts that the Dean campaign calls "The Heart and Soul of Our Campaign"

Promote hope! Banish fear! Go Dean!

[DrFunkenstein]

3. What Are You Talking About

Just on the first page:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=75867

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=75022

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=75424

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=44805&mesg_id=44805

Just because you don't read the positive threads doesn't mean they are not there. And just because you've forgotten the cheap shots Dean has taken doesn't mean we have.

[DemBones DemBones]

123. A pictures is worth a thousand words about Dean's pugnacity

[blm]

10. You mean "Promote Dean as a populist...lie for him" campaign?

Empowering people or empowering Libertarian style deregulation? Did Dean have a core principle transplant last January?

[polpilot]

110. Kerry supporters need to vent. They are shocked at Dean's meteoritic

rise to the top and many NEVER saw it coming. For those who knew of the Dean factors, 10 months ago, that would catapult him to the top all of this just seems inevitable but to the supporters of the 'It's my TURN!! candidates this has been a really, really frustrating year.

Let them vent.

Dean '04...

[goobergunch]

2. Let's not. (n/t)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

29. Just goes to show you...

there is always a way to make an environment even more vile and rancorous.

Normally, I wouldn't care about a post like this. If done correctly, it could become an interesting reference. The original post should have contained citations and quotes going back to the 'Bush-lite' era of the Dean campaign. It would still stir up bad feelings but it would be valuable as a consolidation.

But what we have here is just another attempt to paint Dean as mean, malicious, and to use their favorite word, a liar. Shall we really descend into posting every day that Dean is a liar whereby I feel compelled to point out Kerry's lies? To what end? Mutual destruction. Sure, they don't feel Kerry's lies are really lies, much like Dean people don't feel Dean's lies are really lies. I'm cynical enough to know a lie when I hear a lie and both candidates are liars. I've yet to meet a politician who hasn't told a lie or lied by omission.

If a true list were ever compiled, what purpose would it serve? Eliminate Dean from the race? With his money, he's going to the end. The "Dean is mean" threads won't have any effect on the campaign. It will only continue to stir up hatred. Hate. Wow, never thought we would really be at that point. In the real world, I have friends who support Kerry and Kucinich and two who are avid Dean people. They all know that I used to support Dean but withdraw my support to allow this forum to be my avenue of education regarding the other campaigns. We all chat together and we talk about the real things. We talk about plans for job creation. We talk about tax plans (undoing the cuts, verses undoing some). We talk about plans for Iraq. The IWR vote doesn't come up because it is history. We consistently say that so long as Kerry was voting what he believed, it doesn't matter. My caveat is in my signature though.

Luckily I don't 'make or break' a candidate on a single vote.

Why is the real world filled with enriched debate and here is just filled with 'He hit me. No, he hit me first' type of crap? Is it because of ego? Are some people so afraid their candidate is going to lose they would prefer to see no one win? That is pathetic. Oh, I already know the counter argument to this... "We want the best candidate who can beat Bush." If that is the case then trust the system that gave us some of the best Presidents ever. We got this Bush because the party decided beforehand they wanted Bush and the primaries were a sham. McCain didn't stand a chance because the party was too willing to backstab him. We don't do that. We let the process, messy as it is, do its job.

The only way we can guarantee the system doesn't lag is to make sure every candidate is shown in the best possible light. It is okay to point out grievous errors and documentable lies, but to cast general aspersions, to villify, to create hatred towards a candidate is uncivil, undemocratic, and simply pathetic.

[helleborient]

35. Thank you!

[indigo32]

5. ahhh

I'm stuttering

[indigo32]

6. dupe

eom

[blm]

7. Here's the beginning. Jan.23.

How many lies are in this one speech?

*He tells the audience that those four guys raised their taxes. (GOP spin)

*That they supported Bush's taxcut for the wealthiest. (None of them voted for it)

*That they were all saying they were antiwar now. (No, they stood by their IWR vote, but, criticized Bush's poor follow through)

* Implies he's antiwar (but doesn't explain his support for IWR w/Biden-Lugar amendment)

* Claims to be a straighttalker, lists accomplishments, but, doesn't even mention his civil unions bill at this gathering.

*That they are all "Bushlite" (odd coming from a Libertarian leaning centrist known for compromising with the GOP, and boasted to the CATO Institute they should love his penchant for deregulation)


http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml

Dean promises to deliver straight talk

By LISA WANGSNESS
Monitor staff


Former Vermont governor Howard Dean accused his Democratic presidential primary opponents yesterday of trying to run against the very Republican policies they'd supported in Congress.

"I think our party is suffering because we keep nominating people who will say anything they have to say to get elected," he said.

>>>>>>>

He said nothing at all about what he is probably most famous for doing as governor: signing a court-ordered bill to legalize civil unions for gay couples. In other forums, Dean has said he would leave the issue up to the states to resolve individually.

>>>>>>>>


" I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America," he said.

>>>>>
"Today, they're running around telling you folks they're all anti-war," he said. (Later, he acknowledged that Lieberman's vote was consistent with the senator's comparatively "hawkish" position on Iraq.) "We're never going to elect a president that does those things. If I voted for the Iraq resolution, I'd be standing in favor, supporting it right now in front of you."

Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."

>>>>>>>
So Democrats, he concluded, must nominate a candidate who can win. "Remember," he said, "we're not going to beat Bush with Bush lite."





Friday, Jan 24, 2003

[mzmolly]

103. You post would be interesting/compelling if it were true.

;)

[blm]

106. You're saying Dean didn't say what the reporter wrote?

Then Dean surely would have gotten a retraction that he is so famous for demanding when he feels misquoted. Please cite that retraction.

[blm]

113. Any proof yet that Dean didn't say what the reporter wrote?

.

[Octafish]

8. Dean said Gephardt lied about his record on Medicare.

The thing is Gephardt was right. And Dean was wrong to attack him.

Howard Dean's Medicare problem

EXCERPT...

About a month ago, Dick Gephardt began publicizing Dean's previous criticisms of Medicare. In 1995, shortly after the so-called GOP "revolution," Gingrich and the new-found Republican majorities in Congress pushed for shifting Medicare patients to managed care and cutting over $280 billion from the federal program. Dean, at the time Vermont's governor, endorsed the Republicans' Medicare proposal. Complicating matters, he called the program "one of the worst things that ever happened," and a "bureaucratic disaster."

When confronted with Gephardt's revelation, the Dean campaign responded by saying it was wrong for Gephardt to compare Dean to Newt Gingrich. That was fine, but it didn't respond to the substance of the charge. A few days later, the Dean campaign told the Washington Post that Dean "couldn't remember" which side of the Medicare fight he was on. Two weeks later, at a DNC debate, Dean responded with, "I've done more for health insurance, Dick Gephardt, frankly, than you ever have."

CONTINUED...

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000735.html

PS: This is an important topic. There's a reaon more than 70 percent of Democrats support candidates other than Howard Dean.

[indigo32]

11. There's a reaon more than 70 percent of Democrats support candidates other

And what is the reason even more support candidates other than Kerry... oh wait... let me answer for you... it's the media. Right..that's the ticket.

[Octafish]

26. Da media don't cover anyone but Dean.

This article makes the case why the media favor Dean and why Karl Rove favors Dean. The real answer is bigger than DDF Spam:

Is Howard Dean the Crypto-Republican Candidate?

By Norman D. Livergood

Why is the Republican-owned media giving Howard Dean multi-million dollar media attention? That's the question no one's asking.

Dean made the covers of both Time and Newsweek, was interviewed by Larry King, was the subject of a US News Special, and receives continuing major coverage on all the "news" channels: MSNBC, CNN, and Fox.

Even Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, appeared on CNBC's Capital Report, was interviewed on Fox News' Fox Facts, and was interviewed on CNN's Inside Politics--all in July, 2003. Why is Dean the only Democratic candidate to be given this kind of coverage?

The Republicans and their media hirelings would have us believe that they're giving Dean the spotlight because he's an Internet phenomenon, that he's the leading Democratic contender, and because he represents the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" (a line Dean stole from the late Senator Paul Wellstone). None of the media's claims are true.

CONTINUED... with links.

http://www.hermes-press.com/HDean/dean_republican.htm

[killbotfactory]

28. He's gone from unelectable ultra-liberal to crypto-republican

Crazy.

[redqueen]

33. Thanks for that link.

I can't figure out why back in the lead up to war the media was nearly 100% GOP owned and operated, but now it's ethical, dammit!

[drfemoe]

9. hohohohohoho

my sides are hurting I'm laughing so hard...

How convenient that Kerry served in vietnam .. 30 years ago.
Now he thinks he can just point to that ancient history to prove he has guts?

Really, do you think Gov Dean was talking about the 20 year old Kerry being spineless or the current version who votes with and for the resident's policies at every turn? ..
Oh! And who has no better plan for campaigning than ganging up with his washington chums to slam the frontrunner?
hmmmmm?

[blm]

21. Except, Kerry was the FIRST to advocate for gays to serve openly

in the military. A very brave position to take in the mid80s, when damn few lawmakers stood up for gays publically.

Kerry advocated for former felons to receive their right to vote back after serving their time. It wasn't too popular to stick up for ex felons.

Kerry investigated and exposed BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning, opposed by the CIA, FBI, most Democrats, and the GOP powerstructure who had their presswhores tearing at Kerry almost daily in the press for many years.

Kerry - spineless? NOONE has a braver legislative record.

[Hawkeye-X]

78. Braver legislative record?

Let's see.

Kerry voted for
anti-civil Patriot Act
Homeland Gestapo Act
IWR
Letting judicial extremists get the OK before putting on the ropes

Oh, and must NOT forget that Kerry has an existing Skull & Bones relationship with the BFEE.

Forget it. Kerry's history. Dean may not be perfect, but at least he's FRIGGIN' consistent.

Hawkeye-X

[blm]

102. Dean's consistent? Then he's STILL for deregulating electricity?

He's STILL for repealing some of our civil rights? (9-14-2001)

He's STILL for global free trade?

He's STILL for allowing assault weapons?

He's STILL for storing nuclear waste at Yucca Mt.?

He's still a compromising centrist?

[George_Bonanza]

121. Yes, how convenient he served in a war

Like serving in the Vietnam War was a convenient thing? I can't believe the stupidity of that comment.

Hey, if we're all banging on history here, how about we forget about Dean's precious civil unions? Dean fans are more willing to forget the past because Dean hasn't had a particularly outstanding one, whereas Kerry has. They prefer to focus on campaign rhetoric that can mask true intentions that can only be revealed through past policies.

[LuminousX]

12. So, let me understand this

Just because Dean attacked means he is not allowed to defend? Did his opponents defend themselves when he attacked?

How do you define thin-skinned? Is thin-skinned a desire to not have your candidate attacked in thread after thread after thread? Then aren't all supporters thin-skinned? Who wants that?

Thanks for elevating the debate.

[helleborient]

16. The only way to elevate the debate...

Is to be positive about our campaign.

And to follow the moderators plea for civility...even when supporters of other candidates ignore it.

People can change their approach...and that's the essence of hope and a hopeful campaign.

I'm looking forward to meeting new people at tomorrow night's meetup and writing more letters to Iowa...a heck of a lot more fun than wallowing in attack and defend mud.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Thin-Skinned Is "I'm Tired Of This Negativity" Several Months Later

I have no problem with Dean defending himself. But when his supporters say that Dems attacking each other is wrong it is hypocrisy. Dean has been relentlessly negative. Kerry fired a major staffer because they fought over retaliating. Kerry wanted to take the high road. But nice guys finish second.

[LuminousX]

45. It is wrong when Dean does it, it is wrong now

I guess I don't understand.

There is nothing wrong with a good attack. There is everything wrong with casting general aspersions. Dean did that when he called all the Democrats in Congress 'Bushlite.' I come from a point of view that if something is wrong, it is wrong always. It doesn't suddenly become right just because someone got away with it.

[DrFunkenstein]

47. I'm Not Sure What You Are Saying

Are you condemning Dean's use of "Bushlite?" I'd have a whole lot more respect for you if you did. And I would take your comments a whole lot more seriously. I'm being sincere.

[LuminousX]

50. I, personally considered the position of Lieberman Bushlite

and I felt Dean using it produced good results, but I always felt it was beneath a Presidential candiate to resort to name calling on that level.

[helleborient]

65. As an example, two things that did really bother me...

1) The use of the term "Bushlite"...I don't like name-calling ever, and it is distincitively un-presidential.

2) The "holier than thou" approach that Dean's comments involving the Confederate battle flag are somehow indicative of racism when the DNC audience cheered it last February, and it is clearly a comment about a "big tent" for the party.



To me, Dean does not come out of the first looking positive, and in the second, Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards came out injecting the race card into the contest...something I detest from anyone. Particularly when they didn't respond when it was first said 9 months ago.


I am only talking about these because you genuinely asked about reactions to comments from candidates. I will go back to trying to focus on the positive on all of the candidates.

[DrFunkenstein]

75. Honestly Kerry's Point Confused Me

He tied the flag thing up with the NRA thing, and it was really poorly worded. There may be something to what he says, but I can't discern it outside of the "rather be NAACP than NRA" which is at least catchy. But Kerry doesn't call Dean a racist, he calls him a panderer. I disagree with him that Dean "embraces" the flag, although he certainly allows for it.

[quinnox]

13. The list would make book length

It's unbelieveable how many times Dean has demeaned and insulted his fellow Democrats. Hell, he called the entire Congress cockroaches, I don't think his fellow Democrats working there appreciated that much.

Dean has shot himself in the foot so many times, I am frankly amazed he is still around. It's bound to come back and haunt him though, just like his past words about Medicare and affirmative action, not to mention his recent confederate flag flub.

[LuminousX]

15. Then write that book

Cite every time Dean lied, attacked, and otherwise behaved in a manner you disagreed with.

What would the result be? A Dean loss. Is that really what you are working towards, defeating Dean? If Dean is so bad, he will defeat himself. You need to be girding your candidate to defeat Bush. Eyes on the prize.

[helleborient]

22. Kerry, the candidate, wrote his own book about the positive reasons...

Why he should be supported.

"A Call To Service : My Vision For a Better America"

Would he encourage this wallowing by his supporters?

[Egnever]

27. I don't think his fellow Democrats working there appreciated that

They might not have apreciated it much. But I think it was GREAAAT!

Deans right the congress is full of cockroaches cant wait for the light to shine down on them.

[LuminousX]

38. Quick correction, he only was referring to those who stood in the way

of prescription drug benefits.

This is what I mean when I say 'a desire to be victimized by Dean.' Did Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, Kucinich, and Lieberman stand in the way of prescription drug benefit legislation? No. So Dean was not referring to them, yet they are so eager or at least their supporters are so eager, to put them in that category.

Being a victim doesn't inspire people to follow you.

[CMT]

14. we could compile a list that other candidates have made on Dean

but what is the point?

[RogueTrooper]

17. self justification

;)

[helleborient]

18. There is none...

Like pouring gasoline on an already destructive fire.

[LuminousX]

19. Somewhere the other campaigns think there is a condition called fairness

It doesn't exist. It was a lesson I learned in the schoolyard.

I've never seen a group of people so eager to be attacked, to become victims. What the hell, this is leadership? I expect them to show up at the debates with their arms in slings and bandages wrapped around their heads to highlight how Dean has beat them up.

[Egnever]

20. there is no point thats the fun! heres a short list just the same

ATTACKS BY FELLOW DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES ON GOVERNOR DEAN

STARTING SEPTEMBER 1

Democrat hopefuls rip chief rival Dean; Kerry, Lieberman turn up heat on front-runner - AP, 9/1

Kerry slams Dean - Boston Globe, 9/1

Democratic White House Hopefuls Focus Attacks On Dean - The Bulletin's Frontrunner, 9/2

Kerry launches campaign, takes aim at Bush, Dean - Seattle Times, 9/3

Kerry Changes Stance, Takes On Dean New Campaign Tactic Highlights Differences Between Candidates - Boston Globe, 9/4

Rivals rip surging Dean - on paper; Democrats blast him in debate handouts - Dallas Morning News, 9/5

Lieberman Leads Attacks On Dean In First Debate - WSJ, 9/5

Dean's Quick Rise Makes Him Target Of His Own Party - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/7

Lieberman Criticizes Dean About His Remarks on Israel - NY Sun, 9/8

Taking a risk, Lieberman takes on front-running Dean - AP, 9/9

Edwards Critical of Dean Over Race Remark - AP, 9/10

Lieberman, Kerry rip Dean; Dems turn feisty in 2nd debate - Boston Globe, 9/10

Gephardt rips into Dean on health care - AP, 9/12

Presidential Candidate Congressman Gephardt Unleashed A Stinging Attack On Rival Howard Dean - FOX News, 9/12

Gephardt Attacks Dean on 2 Social Programs - NYT, 9/13

Gephardt accuses Dean of backing GOP policies - Baltimore Sun, 9/13

Gephardt criticizes Dean for past positions - Des Moines Register, 9/13

Gephardt plays hardball with front-runner Dean - Manchester Union Leader, 9/13

Gephardt Shifts Attacks to Dean - WP, 9/13

After Climbing To The Top, Dean Discovers He's A Target Rivals Set Sights On Front-Runner - Boston Globe, 9/14

In A Shift Of Strategy, Kerry Takes On Dean - Boston Globe, 9/14

Gephardt is latest to attack Dean - Chicago Tribune, 9/14

Gephardt Aims At Dean, Linking Him To Gingrich - St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/14

Kerry rips Bush but adds Dean hit - AP, 9/15

Gephardt Steps Up Criticism Of Dean, Says He Agreed With 'Gingrich Republicans' - Frontrunner, 9/15

Gephardt: An Attack A Day Keeps The Doctor At Bay? - Hotline, 9/15

Dean becomes a target - Newsday, 9/15

Gephardt Uses Web Site to Criticize Dean - AP, 9/16

Gephardt: Moredeanbashing.com - Hotline, 9/16

Kerry Openly Criticizes Dean's Stance On Tax Cuts For Middle Class Families - Frontrunner, 9/16

Still under attack, Dean goes easy on his rivals - AP, 9/17

Kerry Steps Up Attacks On Dean Over Trade - Frontrunner, 9/23

Kerry Attacks Rival Dean Over Protectionism - NYT, 9/23

Despite interest in Clark, Dean is still top target of other candidates - Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/25

Among the 10, Two Are Tested the Most; Newcomer Clark Avoids Serious Gaffes; Dean Withstands Sharper Challenges - WP, 9/26

10 Democratic rivals debate national woes, attack well-financed Dean and ignore newcomer Clark - Knight-Ridder, 9/26

Democrats spare Clark in his first debate and go after Dean - AP, 9/26

Democratic Candidates Focus Attacks On Dean In Primary Debate - Frontrunner, 9/26

Clark survives debate, as hopefuls target Dean; Candidates' attacks include a comparison to Gingrich - Dallas Morning News, 9/26

Debate Rivals Target Dean - Hartford Courant, 9/26

Debate: All Eyes On The General, All Attacks Aimed At Dean - Hotline, 9/26

Gephardt, Kerry attack Dean over prior views - Washington Times, 9/26

Dean Is Targeted by Rivals - LA Times, 9/26

Bush, Dean under attack in 10-way Democratic debate - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 9/26

Fellow Dems Diss Dean As Sparks Fly In Debate - NY Post, 9/26

Attacking the Leader; Debate barbs aimed at front-runner Dean - NY Newsday, 9/26

Party unity? The candidates were united, in going after Howard Dean - Phila. Inquirer, 9/26

Dean Takes The Heat From Rivals - Baltimore Sun, 9/26

Clark Debut Doesn't Change Democrats' Focus on Dean - NY Times, 9/27

Democratic rivals target Bush -- and Dean - Salon.com, 9/27

Gephardt attacks Dean Medicare record - AP, 9/29

Democrats: Candidates Criticize Dean's Record On Medicare - American HealthLine, 9/29

Gephardt Compares Dean's Record On Medicare To Gingrich's - Frontrunner, 9/29

Gephardt: Takes His Sparring With Dean To The Sunday Shows - Hotline, 9/29

Attacks on Dean may leave voters dizzy - St. Petersburg Times, 9/29

Dean Rivals Try To Turn His Comments On Key Issues Against Him - Frontrunner, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean For Bush Pact - NYT, 10/2

Rivals Target Dean's Blunt Comments - WP, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean Over '93 Nuclear Waste Accord - Frontrunner, 10/6

Kerry maintains attacks on Dean over Medicare - DMR, 10/7

Kerry: Still Hammering Away At Dean On Medicare - Hotline, 10/7

Clark, Dean Are Targeted in Debate - LA Times, 10/10

Gephardt roasts Dean on past political moves - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 10/12

Mutual Threat Unites 2 Rivals Opposing Dean - NYT, 10/12

Gephardt and Kerry unite against Dean - IHT, 10/13

Dean Continues To Draw Fire From Rivals At Des Moines AARP Forum - Frontrunner, 10/16

Other Candidates Again Target Dean; At Iowa Seniors Forum, He Is Chided for Views on Medicare, Bush Tax Cuts - WP, 10/16

'Divers' Dedicated to Dig Dirt on Dean - AP, 10/21

Edwards raps Dean on health plan - Manchester Union Leader, 10/21

Kerry Criticizes Dean Oversight of Vermont Egg Farm - AP, 10/22
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001964.html#more

Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. for President!

[redqueen]

30. Don't be so lazy.

Can you say with confidence that each article in this list you cut pasted from his blog mentions an individual, specific attack?

Didn't think so.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. See You In September

Besides the fact that most of these sources are overlapping stories, this is retaliation after Dean has attacked since 2002 - not September.

[helleborient]

68. Dr. F..does it matter?

You're not going to win some prize...I guess the bickering does seem really pointless to me right now, and doesn't elevate any candidate.

But it sure does make some people think this forum and DU in general is a sucky place to be.

[DrFunkenstein]

85. Aloof, Elitist, Uppity, DLC, PNAC, BFEE, Bushlite, Baby Killer

This sh*t ain't new, and it ain't old neither.

This place has sucked for a long time. You have to find your pockets of levity, sincerity, and amity where you can find them.

[blm]

23. Then make a timeline listing ALL the attacks by all the candidates.

Let's see who did it first, who did it the most, who reciprocated and when. Sounds fair.

[indigo32]

24. "sounds fair" No it sounds like a 2 year old

thats what it sounds like

[blm]

40. Why? Because the truth shows something you don't want to admit

and definitely don't want to see laid out definitively.

[indigo32]

41. No

because it misses the point entirely... which is to beat *. I'm sick of this tearing our own candidates down. If you want me to switch to Kerry... then convince me he can win (I've already read enough on his record thx).

[redqueen]

56. It's more than just beating *, it's preparing ...

for what will happen after the nomination.

Might not Dean be painted as a crybaby who dishes it out but can't take it? Might he not be painted as a panderer who changes his positions too often? I don't know, but sticking our heads in the sand is no way to address real issues.

I think the way Dean went on the attack early, then turned around and started whining when it happened to him was a bit weak, personally. You obviously think differently.

It's fine to say you disagree, but the constant whinefest of how everyone is so unfair to Dean is a bit on the annoying side.

[indigo32]

60. Well

frankly I'd have to disagree that Dean is whining (his supporters... maybe you could make a case for that). I'm not trying to be over the top... I guess after the whole Confederate Flag thing, this thread just set me on edge.

[redqueen]

63. I completely relate.

I know I've gone over the top at least once responding to attacks on Kucinich, so no worries.

I guess it just seems so much more obvious because there are more Dean supporters. :)

[JohnKleeb]

66. On the confederate flag thing

I really do think Dean was trying to be inclusive really but he worded it wrong, no I Dont think Dean is a racist one bit, what disturbed me indigo was people defending the confederate flag, thats what got me upset, I am white yes and a southerner, but that flag represents negativism to me really, people will argue that he has ambigious meanings maybe it does but to me its not positive, the KKK which was composed of confederate veterans started it, it wasnt recent, they used that flag, also on the KKK they hate other groups too and they happened to be fairly near my grandfather's town growing up, as a Catholic and "inferior" non anglo I bet he was scared, I know I would be. I really have only seen a handful call Dean racist for this, the flag to me is racist but Dean isnt. Youre fair and objective for the most part, dont let assholes get you down, then you will have nothing worth fighting for, I get down when people pull this shit on Kucinich and shove it down, actually its more the electablity stuff, its really rude yet people do it and they know it pisses off, so why do they do it, basic human nature, to get a reaction. I think your quite fair, just dont resort to doing what some have done and defend that flag. I am sorry, to rant about that, but that flag offends me to death, now I dont think Dean meant wrong really.

[DrFunkenstein]

70. Once Again - Ditto

Although I didn't see people call Dean a racist, I don't doubt it. I started a thread to make this all clear, but I still hear it from Dean people.

[helleborient]

71. And what's the best way to get rid of the flag...

I think it's pulling those who display it into a bigger tent and actually talking and listening with each other.

There are reasons why people display the flag...and for many many of them it has nothing to do with race...it has to do with feeling beaten down by society and choosing to rebel.

I won't defend the flag but those who do display it are people...not inhuman beasts.

[JohnKleeb]

72. Dont get rid of the flag but one must realize its not positive

I did for the record see people defend the flag here, my eyes dont play tricks. Shrug I dont know really.

[helleborient]

79. I certainly don't deny that...

But it was probably during my self-imposed exile.

I don't think it's defensible either.

[JohnKleeb]

84. Kudos for you and indigo for not doing that then

I think you could be right some are trying to be rebels but I think some are kinda racist. That flag represents as I say as shameful part of our history.

[indigo32]

74. John I appreciate your sentiments

and agree with them entirely. I don't think the Confederate Flag is anything to defend and I don't think Dean meant it that way. I understand the electability stuff is hard to take about DK...especially when people are rude about it (and they are)... There is absolutely nothing wrong with hope.

[JohnKleeb]

82. Ah thanks I appreciate it

Of course he wasnt trying to be racist, I am fully aware of that but when I see people who perhaps lost their main arguement resort to defending the flag I am not happy. Exactly on hope, I am ready for the America Ive read and dreamed of, I am sick of war and the like. Thanks for being fair, and not defending that flag, I dont feel all who fly it are bigots but that flag is something I would eyeball someone for flying. The person I know who owns one, I dont know why he does, and I will tell you he wont be voting democratic anytime soon, now lol he could like Dean's gun views but on the other hand on culture issues which btw I think Dean is pretty damn good on, by culture I mean like social issues, especially gay/lesbian issues, on that hes horrible really. I would love to see those voters voting democratic really. I dont find Dean a racist for saying what he said, I guess I could say I wish his word usage was better, wording is important to me, but he was not wrong to be inculsive. Thanks for not resorting to dirty tactics and defending that flag, they can have it sure but its not heritage to me in the slighest bit, I must add too that I am only a southerner by birth, my grandfather I mentioned is a Pennyslvanian and a son of immigrants, so I am not much of one really but I do live in the state of many confederates and battles, Virginia. Thanks again.

[helleborient]

69. I'm just concerned we're being rude to each other

But you may disagree.

[redqueen]

95. Well sure that's happening...

and it's troubling, and we all have to fight our own animal instinct to lash out.

I really don't think that was the purpose of Dr. Funkenstein's original post. I think he really wanted to discuss how the attacks really started much earlier than this year, and how maybe we should try to take the substantive attacks seriously, rather than dismissing them out of hand as frivolous and 'providing talking points for Rove'.

This will probably all come up after the nomination, for whomever gets it, so IMO it's better to deal with it now. I think the fact that someone has gone to the trouble to post a list of articles which describe where Dean was attacked on a website is kind of sad, really. When you consider that the substance of an attack isn't discussed, or even labeled as groundless (e.g. racist), it just seems like whining IMHO.

I'm sure Kucinich's staff could put together a list where articles don't tell the whole story about MUNY light, or where they call him a lunatic, or whatever, but what is the point?

If we're talking about attacks like calling someone a war criminal, or a racist, or a lunatic... then that doesn't deserve discussion and those should be dismissed. But if the attacks are about something more substantive then that does warrant hashing out.

[helleborient]

99. I listen much more closely...

When profanity, rudeness, and personal attacks are left out.

I did take the beginning of Dr. F's post as attacking Dean supporters personally. If he didn't intend that, I suggest rewrites of the post.

You do have a point...but this thread wasn't the best way to approach your concerns.

[helleborient]

44. My book group here...

Just finished reading Sandra Cisneros' "Caramelo"

It has a lot of interesting points on absolute truth versus relationships developed through storytelling.

She quotes an old Mexican saying as "only children and drunks tell the truth." And Sandra Cisneros said in person "Who really wants to listen to a drunk?"

I guess it implied to me also that if you work on developing true relationships based in care and comfort of one another rather than insisting on absolutism...you will develop networks of people that help and support each other.

The history of politics is filled with points of questionable truth...and a victory by any one candidate certainly won't change any of that. The big victories have been won by those who convince voters they will be welcomed and taken care of and that they are an integral part of something bigger than themselves.

[helleborient]

25. It's stupid, pointless, and destructive...

We've been there way too many times already...focus on the reason for all of the campaigns...winning in November, 2004.

Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan won big with positive messages. Hope wins elections! Despair only wins when others willingly follow the lead.

[LuminousX]

32. Who did it first?

What does that matter? Do you really feel there is some referee in this that will come down and penalize one candidate or another for 'attacking first?'

Of course you don't. You are looking for some sort of moral superiority which doesn't exist.

And at the end of the day, it wouldn't matter. You would feel that the fact Dean started it first somehow justifies everything the other candidates do in return.

[helleborient]

36. Molly Ivins' wisdom on this...

When she spoke here in town a few weeks back...she said all of politics boils down to:

1) 2 kids and 3 cookies

That means you have 2 kids and 3 cookies...it's obvious each gets one, but what do you do with the remaining. The only solution is one gets to divide in half, and the other choose the half he/she wants.

2) He/she started it

Bickering about who started what...the only solution here is to end it, and go on.

[redqueen]

31. What's very telling his how fast this thread was spammed - n/t

[LuminousX]

34. I'm sorry... I forgot, responding to things like this is 'thin-skinned'

[helleborient]

37. Now the posts of those who disagree are spam?

More gasoline...more fire...more destruction.

One thing I really love about Dennis Kucinich is his firm opposition to name-calling and destructive fighting amongst ourselves.

[indigo32]

39. Was there one post on the Kerry supporter thread

where they were all patting eachother on eachothers backs about how smart they are? This thread deserves what it gets.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigo32]

48. Thing is Funk

I make a discernment between Candidates attacking eachother and candidate supporters attacking eachother. I've never participated in attacking Kerry... even once. AND I don't blame Kerry or Dean for attacking eachother. I simply have issues with supporters tearing down their own candidates.

[LuminousX]

49. We put up with this crap for months debating with people

And we aren't? How have I and other NOT engaged in the debate? We debate the issues until we are blue in the face and once it seems resolved, somebody restarts the issue up again (see push-polling, see Dean is a racist).

Again. I'm confused by your perspective.

Dean supporters. Roll over and play dead. You've had your chance, now let the others have theirs.

Why did Kerry people say Dean called Kerry a cockroach when Kerry never stood in the way of Prescription Drug Benefits and Dean clearly stated that those people in Congress who stood in the way of Prescription Drug Benefits were going to 'scurry like cockroaches' (he didn't even say 'were cockroaches')? Could it be they really wanted to feel like Dean was attacking Kerry once again to further their passion for revenge? That is playing victim.

[cindyw]

88. I have to make a point on this.

When Dean made the "cockroach" comment he was being asked about his fellow candidates. While technically his answer would not apply to Kerry, Dean certainly made no attempt to say who he was talking about. In the common sense of grammar he was certainly either inferring it by answering a question about him in that way. The answer was certainly interpreted that way by people to Dean's benefit and Kerry's detrement, whether it was intended to or not. It is similar to Bush. He never said that the Mission was Accomplished, but he stood in front of a 50 foot sign that said so. Dean's campaign is an attempt to run against the cockroaches and be the straight talking outsider. WHy even say the thing, if he wasn't talking about his opponents.

[redqueen]

98. Well actually he was being asked about ...

entrenched beltway bureaucracy (sp?)

Either way, some of his fellow candidates and members of his party who have served loyally and well are in that group.

[helleborient]

52. Find something negative I've said today since I returned...

Other than concern over lies about gays and pedophilia.

I've posted positive comments about Dean, Kerry and Kucinich today. I'm trying to actively change the rhetoric to more like I enjoy in my everyday life offline.

I'm not crying foul or crying in any other way. And I'm certainly not wallowing in self-pity - I think I'm a great person who's a lot of fun to be around.

I'm not "taking shots" from anyone...I ignore the potshots...the best approach from faceless online posts. I refuse to be drawn into a war or military-positive environment because I do not believe in that.

I put my faith in relationships and people working together. Everyone I know in life is fallible and repeats things or tells things that have questionable truth in them...so for me to get in an uproar when I hear any falsehood from anyone is ridiculous to me. I would spend my entire life being a fact-checker. That really gets me nowhere unless I'm working for a publishing house.

I'm actively looking for a way out of the negativity, by attempting to promote an alternative path. It has already prompted several positive comments. I like that.

I encourage you to join us...not in support of Howard Dean as your chosen candidate, but in support of civility, and hope for the future.

[DrFunkenstein]

58. I'm Down

The point of this thread was not to say what a lousy candidate Dean is (although I admit I am under that impression by now). It was to make a point, and I hope it was made.

I hope more Dean supporters like yourself encourage him to leave behind his infantile name-calling. The fact that he re-hashed "Bush-lite" for the Detroit debate doesn't bode well with me.

There is nothing wrong with respectfully disagreeing with Kerry's vote. In fact, I do and I'm much more receptive to people who take that tone. Calling him pro-war is bullsh*t, though. Calling him Bushlite is even worse. I've seen him called a war criminal and worse around here. So I'm not very sympathetic to Dean people crying when someone condemns Dean for sticking his foot in his mouth, however unintentionally.

I hope the tone around here does change. And I really wish people from each camp would talk with each other on threads that don't attack a candidate.

[helleborient]

62. I've seen plenty of infantile behavior go all different ways...

And now I'm trying to focus on what I like and promoting that.

If I see something I like from Kerry, I'll promote that.

I'm more likely to promote Dean because that's where I'm focused...where I'm doing actual work.

There is plenty I like about all 9 candidates, and definitely things I don't like about a number of them. But that's part of my decision making.

I really don't think I'm going to convince anyone to oppose someone by attacking them or support Dean by being defensive.

The only lasting way is creating the positive image, in my mind.

I think you, as someone who works on campaigns, understand that I personally don't have an "in" to address Dean on what you call "name-calling" I see it somewhat differently than you, but frankly, even if I agreed with you, the chances that I would get his actual ear are slim. Just like if I were a Kerry supporter and I didn't like something he or his campaign did, the chances I could get their actual ear is slim.

For me, slip-ups Dean makes are very minor so far compared to the overwhelming positives of the campaign, and I accept that you disagree.

I worked hard for Bill Clinton twice, and I certainly didn't agree with him on everything. I still think he was a great president even though I still disagree with him on some issues.

I don't know any perfect people in this world...except possibly my partner :-) So I try to work for the best that I think I can get.

[LuminousX]

64. I thought the point was to collect anti-Dean material

[DrFunkenstein]

67. Look Again

"Really, this thin-skinned hypocrisy is just too much to bear. I think it will be a very useful exercise to put together a compilation for these Dean supporters aghast at the shocking tactics of his rivals."

It wasn't for Kerry people to make us feel better. It was to show Dean people the error of their ways.

[LuminousX]

73. We repent, we repent

What response from Dean supporters were you really expecting? A sudden upheaval in methodology? Maybe a mass exodus from the Dean campaign?

[DrFunkenstein]

77. I Wasn't Expecting A Response

Just a silent acknowledgement. And the next time I see a Dean supporter crying in their beer, I can just link to this thread.

[LuminousX]

81. so where is the well documented list?

As I said way up at the top of all this, I normally wouldn't be opposed to a thread like this if it was started with a sizeable chunk of information, if it truly was documenting and compiling.

It still would have stirred up a lot of negativity, but it would still have been a valuabel resource. Yet... without a guiding principle in the original post, it just called for a lot of dumping on Dean without citation and links, making it just another anti-Dean thread... how many is that for today? Oh, that's right, Dean was negative first so we have to put up with it all.

[DrFunkenstein]

89. It Was A Call To Action Because I'm Lazy

I've got better things to do than actually look this stuff up. But I will leave you with a disturbing picture.

<>

[LuminousX]

91. ROFL... okay, I yield, please... put that picture away!!!

[helleborient]

92. That's really weird....

But I just have to ask - where did it come from????

[indigo32]

94. His year book

there was a thread about it yesterday... something about "living in the moment"

[helleborient]

96. And without pants...

LOL

[helleborient]

76. That's exactly what is so repugnant to me...

That you, or anyone else here for some reason think they can show the rest of us "the error of our ways"

Do you honestly think you would convince anyone to change their point of view by proposing to point out, from your individual viewpoint, just exactly where they are wrong?

It doesn't work in families or one-on-one relationships - why on earth would it work here?

All I see resulting is shovels digging trenches deeper and bombs being lobbed back and forth to see who might get hit, injured and bloodied.

Can you say "collateral damage"?

C'mon, Dr. F...help us change the tone...it's a little better in the overall thread today than it was.

[DrFunkenstein]

80. I Was Being Jaunty

I had hoped you weren't going to take the tone literally. I was making a funny. "Error of their ways" is very condescending, and I thought it was clear that even I - the great and all-powerful DrFunkenstein - was not that smug.

[helleborient]

83. Indicative of the problems here...

So many things are said that are so nasty about each other...it's hard to realize the disarming sarcasm and humor. I'm sorry I didn't recognize it.

[DrFunkenstein]

86. Let's Make A Point Of Keeping Each Other Honest

If you see me being an ass, call me out on it. You've definitely earned my respect as a thoughtful and reasonable person.

:toast:

[helleborient]

90. Thank you...it's mutual (n/t)

[redqueen]

53. I hear ya, Doc

After seeing Kucinich called a lunatic, certifiable, and we supporters called all manner of insults... it's a bit weak when you try to point out how Dean has attacked and get an immeidate and waaaaaay over the top bitchfest.

[indigo32]

55. And I was one who called people out for calling Kucinich

a lunatic


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=70123

[redqueen]

57. That's wonderful and fair, and I appreciate it.

But we're not sitting here calling Dean a lunatic. The post is trying to discuss how Dean spent months tearing into other candidates, and now it seems there is an attempt to cry foul when others tear into him.

Some of their attacks are unwarranted (e.g. 'lunatic' type of attacks) and some probably need to be aired (e.g. supporting deregulation, cutting services to needy to balance the budget rather than pursue other options). The thing is that if you even TRY to discuss this, you get flamed and drift offtopic.

It seems a rational discussion of the attacks Dean launched before he started complaining about being attacked is impossible on this forum.

[DrFunkenstein]

51. 10/17/03 Cockroaches

I realize that Howard Dean is running as an outsider, taking on "Washington politicians," and promising to "shake things up" in DC.

That being said, Dean has also surrounded himself with key Washington insiders such as Joe Trippi and Steve Grossman, and all the while, has been reaching out to Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill for support and endorsements.

It's a fine line to walk. This week, it's a line Dean stumbled over clumsily.

In Iowa on Tuesday, a potential voter asked Dean how he would handle entrenched Beltway bureaucracy. As the New York Times reported, the Iowan "mentioned Republicans and Democrats alike, and Dr. Dean made no distinction."

Dean responded that if he won the presidency, lawmakers in Congress were "going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

Cockroaches? Running as an outsider is one thing, comparing members of Congress -- including his fellow Democrats -- to cockroaches is something else entirely.

After months as the "up and coming" candidate, Dean is the frontrunner for the nomination. Now would probably be a good time to stop condemning his Democratic rivals and start appearing above the fray.

Dean needs to start thinking about appearing "presidential." Insurgent candidates frequently have this problem. Voters, particularly independents, generally admire candidates they perceive as having stature. Dean may make his existing fans happy by comparing members of Congress to cockroaches, but he's only reinforcing fears about his limited national appeal.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000763.html

<>

[helleborient]

54. I invite all 9 candidates to be "above the fray"

and looking presidential.

I think Wesley Clark has come close in this past week, but the others aren't following well yet.

[FrenchieCat]

122. Wes Clark as been above the frey all along....

not just in the past week.

[drfemoe]

87. Entrenched Beltway Bureaucracy

In Iowa on Tuesday, a potential voter asked Dean how he would handle entrenched Beltway bureaucracy. As the New York Times reported, the Iowan "mentioned Republicans and Democrats alike, and Dr. Dean made no distinction."

Dean responded that if he won the presidency, lawmakers in Congress were "going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

So are we in favor of preserving the Entrenched Bureaucracy?

Better answers?

"I served in vietnam."
"I bombed Kosovo."
"My daddy was poor."
"Dean is Newt Gingrich."
"Dean said fair handed."
"We are all one."

Or is this Presidential, "we'll just go along with whatever level of missuse of public trust and resources we find when we get there..."

What answer would you have him give?

[LuminousX]

93. Over in a Kucinich Thread we are discussion how congress can't be trusted

These are the subtleties that I enjoy in campaigning.

[redqueen]

97. Dude...

there's a big ole difference between:

"Congress has become ineffective and even somewhat untrustworthy"

and

"a bunch of Cockroaches"

[LuminousX]

100. It's a matter of perspective

that is what I like. You see it as a huge difference. I don't. It is a matter of perspective, and subtleties. It also depends on who your audience is.

[helleborient]

101. I think there's a big difference between....

"Scattering like a bunch of cockroaches"

and

"You are a bunch of cockroaches"

Isn't there?


Have you ever listened to Molly Ivins?

Her use of simile and metaphor can be quite hilarious...and usually when one uses simile and metaphor you are to focus on the aptness of the vision.

If those in opposition would scuttle away to get out of the spotlight when they are called on the issue...scattering like cockroaches does seem like a pretty good metaphor, doesn't it? What else scuttles so quickly to get out of the spotlight than do roaches?

[redqueen]

104. I guess it does depend on the audience.

I, for one, take comments like that, which I consider insulting and trashy, as below the bar.

They do make good soundbites, which is probably why he used it.

I still don't think it was right.

[LuminousX]

107. I don't think anyone is 'Proud' of Dean's use of 'cockroaches'

but it just isn't as horrible as they make it out to be.

I am reminded of a kind of bird, I think it is a kildeer, that pretends to have a broken wing to draw predators away from its nest.

I'm also reminded of basketball when the coach said sometimes you have to act like a minor foul was something more to get the refs attention in order to get it called. "Don't be afraid to be dramatic in order to get a foul called."

[redqueen]

108. Well if you're not proud...

then there must be something wrong with it.

Whether the reactions were real or 'hyped' is another matter altogether.

[blm]

111. Good point.

How many were just as uncomfortable with Dean's accusation of "Bushlite" as when they heard Nader say there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between Bush and Gore?

Nader was wrong and enflamed people against Gore using that tactic. Dean is wrong to say it about the other Dem candidates. Especially against those candidates who are much more liberal than Dean.

[jburton]

59. Dean Dean Dean Dean Dean n /t

[DrFunkenstein]

61. Gee, That's Funny

Because all of the candidates (except Clark) condemned Dean for his insensitive remarks, but Dean supporters jumped on Kerry. Hmmmm.

Kerry Kerry Kerry

[Forkboy]

105. You do your candidate no favors

once again.

[Alex146]

109. YAY! More Dean Bashing!

[genius]

112. Dean's also the one behind the "unelectability" lie

The man would say anything to win. THis is someone we can't trust.

[LuminousX]

114. Proof and citation?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

115. In the immortal words of Jim Sagle:

"This thread ain't nothin' but shit."

[Octafish]

116. Wrong. If Dean's the nominee, it's four more years of Bush.

And that's what makes Dean's supporters so pissed. They know it.

[redqueen]

117. I used to not believe this...

But given Karl Rove's enthusiasm, and Dean's penchant for misspeaking...

[LuminousX]

118. Oh please

He won't win if those who call themselves Democrats won't vote for him.

Once again, I see more Dean supporters saying they are willing to back any candidate than any other candidate's supporter showing willingness to back Dean. What's more important, defeating Bush or satisfying egos?

[polpilot]

119. Dean's supporters are 'hand holding' Kerry's supporters during this

difficult time for them. Not pissed but 'helping them through the grieving process' and WE GET NO CREDIT!!

Dean '04...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

120. The stages of the grieving process:

Shock and Denial----(3rd Q earnings report and polling data)

Disorganization----(Hello!!!)

Recovery----(President Dean)

http://www.funeralplan.com/griefsupport/process.html




One more step to go.

[burr]

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If the RNC can do one...I'm sure a fellow primary candidate will do one as well. Happy now?? Enjoy your roll around in tha shit!!

[redqueen]

126. This is stupid

The whole thread is based on the FACT that Dean has a freaking LIST of articles ... whining about how all the other candidates are picking on him.

Not addressing the claims, not detailing whether the attacks are duplicated in the articles... just posting a list of articles where people said mean things about him.

FREAKING WAAAAAH

So now Dean supporters show up on the thread and post nasty stuff about every other candidate.

Big woop.

The IMPORTANT thing is, our CANDIDATES didn't START the bellyaching.

Getting any clearer yet?

[burr]

127. Who's bellyaching???

If backstabbing is a requirement for being electable...let's have at it!

And besides...what makes you so certain I'm a Dean supporter?

[redqueen]

128. Whoever put up that stupid list of all the articles 'bashing' Dean.

And he does it himself, with his jokes about buckshot in his rear. What a martyr. :nopity:

And please with the sarcastic comments about backstabbing making one electable. I tend to believe Americans are less responsive to negative campaigning.

I'm not certain you're a Dean supporter, but you did pop up in another thread extolling the virtues of his health plan vs. those of other candidates. If you're not a supporter then clearly it can be said that you at least prefer his health plan to the others.

Whatever, the point is that he and his campaign have started the bellyaching, after months of attacking the other candidates.

He must really think people are stupid. Wait a minute...

[burr]

129. I like many of the healthcare plans supported by our candidates...

including Dean's, Kerry's, and Kucinich's. But there is much which has kept me from committing to any of these candidates.

To be honest..I have yet to hear any of them bash or "bellyache" about the electoral college. I have yet to hear any of them complain about the attacks on American consumers using legislation allowing businesses to sue people for recording things over the internet. They have failed to raise the issue of how there shall be a growing demand for medical services over the next two decades, and a crisis level shortage in terms of supply. At the same time..thousands of businesses will go bust, millions of young people will become unemployed, and government spending will be drastically cut because of the collapse of our economic system.

But who cares...let's just cut each other's throats, ain't this more patriotic? :spank:

[redqueen]

130. Ahhh you expect much.

I'm not sure that abolishing the electoral college is something you want to bring up during a campaign. :)

Regarding RIAA lawsuits, I could only find comments from Kucinich on webcasing issues from last year. However if I find something else I'll be sure to share it. I'm curious to know if you've requested information from any of the candidates on these issues.

Regarding the rising demands on the medical system, I'm not sure that's a widely held belief. Perhaps you have something to reference on the subject? A link, even?

You seem to think that discussing the weaknesses of each candidate in detail is pointless, calling it 'slitting each other's throats'. I think that's silly. This exercise of debating each candidates issues is vital.

You know as well as I do that the GOP are going to pull every trick in the book to keep from experiencing the losses they so richly deserve. Not just you and I but all of us on this site need to be well versed in every possible attack, and the defenses for such attacks, so that we can be prepared for the real fight next year.

If we all sit around holding hands and complimenting each others' good manners and intelligence in deciding whom to support at this early stage then we'll be ill prepared for the bloodletting once the real contest is on.

[burr]

131. Bad manners is one thing...

but if the candidates are going to get ugly...lets do it on some defining issues. Let's have a primary battle on whether or not the Democratic Party should be the party of a democratically elected President. Let's cut each other up over how the demands of the retiring baby boomers will fundamentally transform the nature of our economy, and how we should prepare for this! Let the candidates destroy each other based on power and the corrupting influence of money, not based on petty misstatements followed by petty attacks.

We get to observe all of that in the general election!

[deutsey]

125. Take Kerry's advice:

Stop crying in your teacups and get over it.

:evilgrin: